{"id":2740,"date":"2015-09-01T21:37:30","date_gmt":"2015-09-02T01:37:30","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/admin.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/?p=2740"},"modified":"2017-05-21T16:22:32","modified_gmt":"2017-05-21T20:22:32","slug":"win-a-few-lose-a-few-atheists-agnostics-me","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2015\/09\/win-a-few-lose-a-few-atheists-agnostics-me.html","title":{"rendered":"Win a Few, Lose a Few (Atheists \/ Agnostics and Me)"},"content":{"rendered":"\n<\/head>

\"Jekyll&Hyde\"<\/a><\/p>\n

Poster from the 1880s, regarding \u00a0the famous novella written by the Scottish author\u00a0Robert Louis Stevenson,\u00a0published in 1886.\u00a0<\/span>[public domain \/ Wikimedia Commons<\/a>]<\/p>\n

This very day, I received the following two remarkably divergent replies from atheists or agnostics here at Patheos, within a few hours of each other:<\/p>\n

1) \u201cI have only had the pleasure of interacting with you on here for a few weeks, but from what I have seen you are a very fair and honest person. You just happen to disagree with me on a major point of life \u2026 but there is a great deal of satisfaction debating with someone is honest and mature.\u201d<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

[later revision<\/em>] The second negative reply was of a \u201cpersonal attack\u201d nature. I\u2019m happy to report that things have since been patched up between us (with mutual apologies offered). Nevertheless, I have been the recipient of a mountain of personal abuse from quite a few atheists in threads dealing with atheism here (several of them banned for clear violation of my Discussion Policy<\/a>), so my point still stands. I need not cite bore my readers to death with alternate examples. They are all over the comboxes of any paper of mine about atheism. I replied to the first person:<\/div>\n
\n

Excellent. Thanks for the compliment. You seem the same to me, too. It\u2019s always this way with atheist discussion and myself. If I show up in a new place where atheists and agnostics are, all hell breaks loose after I give a few arguments. Lot\u2019s of \u2019em decide to get angry, insult, and they usually split. Then when the dust settles down a bit, a smaller number of thicker-skinned, more self-confident and tolerable atheists decide I\u2019m not Vlad the Impaler, and might actually be capable of uttering a few cogent replies, and they stick around, and we have great discussion and fun. You\u2019re of that type. Many atheists who have commented\u00a0here are, sadly, of the other type. This is how it goes with me. Usually people love me or loathe me. Not much in-between. :-) That\u2019s how it was (very much so) with Jesus and Paul, too (people wanted to murder them, and eventually succeeded), so I figure I\u2019m doin\u2019 something<\/em> right.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

There\u2019s only one o\u2019 me! It\u2019s amazing that such contradictory perceptions of yours truly could take place in the space of one day. But perception, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder, ain\u2019t it? It\u2019s affected by many factors, leading to widely different opinions of (in this instance) one solitary person.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n

This \u201ccontrary\u201d tendency of behavior also applies to other categories of what I regard as \u201cobstinate\u201d folks, when it comes to Catholicism: the angry \/ hostile faction of atheists and radical Catholic reactionaries on the far right fringe of the Catholic faith. I mentioned all three of these groups in my \u201cDiscussion Policy.\u201d<\/a> It\u2019s almost always one of these three groups whenever I have difficult online encounters, ending up in blistering attacks and insults coming my way. I post this mainly for its humorous value, and to show what it is like in the day-to-day life of a Catholic apologist. This is all part of the package; an occupational hazard.<\/div>\n
<\/div>\n
I was also roundly insulted and denigrated at length today by a Calvinist on another discussion thread. Anti-Catholics (a small minority of Protestantism, and mostly from among the \u201cfundamentalist\u201d fringe sub-group) despise Catholics every bit as much (likely even more<\/em>) than some atheists do, because they don\u2019t regard us as Christians. All in a day\u2019s work . . . In summary, I wrote today on my Facebook page, where an earlier form of this article was originally posted:<\/div>\n
<\/div>\n
\n
I love dialogues so much, that I\u2019m willing to put up with this nonsense 70-80% of the time or more, in order to get to a rare gem of dialogue. I think it was Socrates or Plato who said that true dialogue can only take place with some significant measure of mutual respect and even friendship. That\u2019s why it is impossible to do with anti-Catholics, radical Catholic reactionaries, and the angry \/ arrogant brand of atheist, because they offer no such respect to orthodox Catholics.<\/div>\n<\/blockquote>\n
But back to the difficult (coterie or faction of) atheists. Here are my general thoughts:<\/div>\n
<\/div>\n
I ma<\/span>k<\/span>e (rather typically, as I am a \u201cbulldog\u201d debater) several pointed observations about\u00a0<\/span>ideas<\/span><\/em>\u00a0that I reject, but not about<\/span>\u00a0people<\/span><\/em>. Granted, the line in such passionate debates can often be a very\u00a0<\/span>fine<\/span><\/em>\u00a0one, but certainly, in most cases, what I said, and its tone (<\/span>however<\/span><\/em>\u00a0judged) was no more harsh or acerbic than what my atheist opponent stated.<\/span><\/div>\n
\n

So, in a word, it\u2019s a case of the proverbial, \u201cyou can\u00a0<\/span><\/span>dish it out<\/span><\/span><\/em>\u00a0but you can\u2019t\u00a0<\/span><\/span>take<\/span><\/span><\/em>\u00a0it.\u201d Or, \u201cif you can\u2019t stand the<\/span><\/span>\u00a0heat<\/span><\/span><\/em>, get out of the<\/span><\/span>\u00a0kitchen<\/span><\/span><\/em>.\u201d\u00a0<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

I offer a number of replies to standard atheist arguments,\u00a0that they may not usually hear (I\u2019ve been debating atheists and agnostics off and on for 34 years). In the face of that, my atheist opponents only have so many choices:<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

1. Interact with such replies.<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

2. Admit that some replies have a point, and concede the point; possibly with retraction of stated contrary positions.<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

3. Refuse to interact and change the topic\u00a0or obfuscate,\u00a0so as to avoid the intellectual responsibility in dialogue of interacting with one\u2019s opponent.<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

4. Insult and\/or split.<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Our (usually very intelligent) atheist friends too often choose option #4. It\u2019s a great shame, because most atheists are\u00a0sharp and interesting people. I love interacting with intelligent, thoughtful people. I don\u2019t care what they believe. I\u2019m impressed that they think [seriously, about competing ideas], in a world where most people\u00a0<\/span><\/span>don\u2019t<\/span><\/span><\/em>. I\u2019m not claiming my points necessarily always<\/span><\/span>\u00a0overthrew<\/span><\/span><\/em>\u00a0atheist arguments. But they are\u00a0<\/span><\/span>replies<\/span><\/span><\/em>, and lots of folks (even many brilliant folks) don\u2019t want to\u00a0<\/span><\/span>hear<\/span><\/span><\/em>\u00a0replies or criticisms of their view.<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

It remains true as ever, that even the greatest geniuses can accept false premises and misunderstand various fields of knowledge. As a socratic debater, I always go right to<\/span><\/span>\u00a0premises<\/span><\/span><\/em>, in talking with people who disbelieve a lot of what I believe. That was the purpose of my recent, highly controversial\u00a0paper about atheism<\/a>, that was clarified at length by a\u00a0second paper<\/a>. Many atheists and agnostics cannot handle that (just as many, many Christians, likewise, cannot handle strong criticism or critique of anything in their faith). They\u2019re not used to being\u00a0<\/span><\/span>challenged<\/span><\/span><\/em>, and are\u00a0<\/span><\/span>very<\/span><\/span><\/em>\u00a0used to being the \u201csmart guys\u201d when dealing with Christians insufficiently versed in their own theology or in (more often)\u00a0<\/span><\/span>apologetics<\/span><\/span><\/em>, so that they can defend it against outsiders.<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

And so, not infrequently, they (i.e., the sort of angry \/ hostile atheist, so prevalent online) get<\/span><\/span>\u00a0mad<\/span><\/span><\/em>\u00a0and attack the relatively more informed Christian who deigns and dares to offer some \u2014\u00a0<\/span><\/span>any<\/span><\/span><\/em>\u00a0\u2014 reply (whether\u00a0<\/span><\/span>good<\/span><\/span><\/em>\u00a0or\u00a0<\/span><\/span>bad<\/span><\/span><\/em>\u00a0is beside my present point); and they take their ball and bat and go home. I\u2019m happy to let my readers (you) \u00a0decide why that happened in specific\u00a0instances: whether breakdowns of discussion happened because I was an insufferable ass and idiot, and supposedly attacked my opponents and deliberately misrepresented, or because my opponents couldn\u2019t stand being given replies, and refused to counter-reply minus the (or instead of) personal attacks.<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

\u00a0I\u2019ll continue be here. I ain\u2019t going anywhere. And I\u2019ll keep seeking out atheists and agnostics who can talk calmly and rationally with Christians who offer critiques of their views, too. On the relatively rare occasions when true dialogue occurs, it\u2019s usually very interesting and helpful to at least achieve better mutual understanding. Neither side gets anywhere not properly and accurately understanding the thinking (and moral character and intellectual acumen) of the other.<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

\n<\/p><\/div>\n

<\/div>\n
<\/div>\n<\/body><\/html>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

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Unsolicited correspondence has indicated many hundreds of conversions (or returns) to the Catholic faith as a result, by God's grace, of these writings. Dave's conversion story was published in the bestselling book \\\"Surprised by Truth\\\" (edited by Patrick Madrid; San Diego: Basilica Press, 1994). Sophia Institute Press has published six of his books: \\\"A Biblical Defense of Catholicism\\\" (Foreword by Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J., 1996 \/ 2003), \\\"The Catholic Verses\\\" (2004), \\\"The One-Minute Apologist\\\" (2007), \\\"Bible Proofs for Catholic Truths\\\" (2009), \\\"The Quotable Newman\\\" (editor: 2012), and \\\"Proving the Catholic Faith is Biblical\\\" (2015). He is co-author (with Dr. Paul Thigpen) of the inserts for \\\"The New Catholic Answer Bible\\\" (Our Sunday Visitor: 2005), and editor for \\\"The Wisdom of Mr. Chesterton: The Very Best Quotes, Quips, and Cracks from the Pen of G. K. Chesterton\\\" (Saint Benedict Press \/ TAN Books: 2009). \\\"100 Biblical Arguments Against Sola Scriptura\\\" was published by Catholic Answers in May 2012. His \\\"Quotable Wesley\\\" compilation was published by (Protestant \/ Wesleyan publisher) Beacon Hill Press in April 2014. Several of his 49 books are bestsellers in their field. Dave maintains a popular personal Facebook page, a Facebook author page, and has a Twitter account as well. He offers almost all of his books in e-book form on his own Biblical Catholicism site (http:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/), at a permanent deep discount: only $2.99 for ePub, mobi, and AZW, and $1.99 for PDF. His writing has been enthusiastically endorsed or recommended by many leading Catholic apologists, authors, and priests, including Dr. Scott Hahn, Fr. Peter M. J. Stravinskas, Marcus Grodi, Patrick Madrid, Steve Ray, Tim Staples, Devin Rose, Mike Aquilina, Al Kresta, Karl Keating, Fr. 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Formerly a campus missionary, as a Protestant, Dave was received into the Catholic Church in February 1991, by the late, well-known catechist and theologian, Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave\u2019s articles have appeared in many influential Catholic periodicals, including \"This Rock\" (now called \"Catholic Answers Magazine\"), \"Envoy Magazine\" (Patrick Madrid), \"The Catholic Answer,\" \"The Coming Home Journal,\" \"Gilbert Magazine\" (American Chesterton Society), and \"The Latin Mass.\" He also writes a featured column for every issue of \"The Michigan Catholic\": published by the archdiocese of Detroit, and was editor for most of the apologetics tracts published by the St. Paul Street Evangelization apostolate. Dave\u2019s apologetics and writing apostolate was the subject of a feature article in the May 2002 issue of \"Envoy Magazine.\" He served as the staff moderator at the Internet discussion forum for The Coming Home Network, from 2007-2010. Dave has been interviewed on many nationally syndicated Catholic radio shows, including \"Catholic Answers Live\" (twice), \"Faith and Family Live\" (Steve Wood), \"Kresta in the Afternoon,\" \"Son Rise Morning Show,\" \"Catholic Connection\" (Teresa Tomeo), and \"The Catholics Next Door.\" His large and popular website, \"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism,\" was online from March 1997 to March 2007, and received the 1998 Catholic Website of the Year award from \"Envoy Magazine.\" His blog of the same name (now transferred to Patheos), begun in February 2004, contains more than 1,500 papers, at least 500 debates or dialogues, and over 50 distinct \"index\" web pages. Unsolicited correspondence has indicated many hundreds of conversions (or returns) to the Catholic faith as a result, by God's grace, of these writings. Dave's conversion story was published in the bestselling book \"Surprised by Truth\" (edited by Patrick Madrid; San Diego: Basilica Press, 1994). Sophia Institute Press has published six of his books: \"A Biblical Defense of Catholicism\" (Foreword by Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J., 1996 \/ 2003), \"The Catholic Verses\" (2004), \"The One-Minute Apologist\" (2007), \"Bible Proofs for Catholic Truths\" (2009), \"The Quotable Newman\" (editor: 2012), and \"Proving the Catholic Faith is Biblical\" (2015). He is co-author (with Dr. Paul Thigpen) of the inserts for \"The New Catholic Answer Bible\" (Our Sunday Visitor: 2005), and editor for \"The Wisdom of Mr. Chesterton: The Very Best Quotes, Quips, and Cracks from the Pen of G. K. Chesterton\" (Saint Benedict Press \/ TAN Books: 2009). \"100 Biblical Arguments Against Sola Scriptura\" was published by Catholic Answers in May 2012. His \"Quotable Wesley\" compilation was published by (Protestant \/ Wesleyan publisher) Beacon Hill Press in April 2014. Several of his 49 books are bestsellers in their field. Dave maintains a popular personal Facebook page, a Facebook author page, and has a Twitter account as well. He offers almost all of his books in e-book form on his own Biblical Catholicism site (http:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/), at a permanent deep discount: only $2.99 for ePub, mobi, and AZW, and $1.99 for PDF. His writing has been enthusiastically endorsed or recommended by many leading Catholic apologists, authors, and priests, including Dr. Scott Hahn, Fr. Peter M. J. Stravinskas, Marcus Grodi, Patrick Madrid, Steve Ray, Tim Staples, Devin Rose, Mike Aquilina, Al Kresta, Karl Keating, Fr. Dwight Longenecker, Brandon Vogt, Marcellino D'Ambrosio, and Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave has been happily married to his wife Judy since October 1984. They have three sons and a daughter, and reside in southeast Michigan (metro Detroit).","sameAs":["https:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/","https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/dave.armstrong.798","https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/@LuxVeritatisApologetics"],"url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/author\/davearmstrong"}]}},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/2740","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/2331"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=2740"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/2740\/revisions"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/2742"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=2740"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=2740"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=2740"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}