{"id":320,"date":"2011-11-24T14:24:00","date_gmt":"2011-11-24T14:24:00","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/admin.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2011\/11\/st-francis-de-sales-argument-against-total-depravity-and-for-the-indefectibility-of-the-church-psalms-2.html"},"modified":"2017-05-29T15:06:46","modified_gmt":"2017-05-29T19:06:46","slug":"st-francis-de-sales-argument-against-total-depravity-and-for-the-indefectibility-of-the-church-psalms-2","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2011\/11\/st-francis-de-sales-argument-against-total-depravity-and-for-the-indefectibility-of-the-church-psalms-2.html","title":{"rendered":"St. Francis de Sales: The Bible vs. Total Depravity"},"content":{"rendered":"<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC \"-\/\/W3C\/\/DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional\/\/EN\" \"http:\/\/www.w3.org\/TR\/REC-html40\/loose.dtd\">\n<html><head><meta http-equiv=\"content-type\" content=\"text\/html; charset=utf-8\"><meta http-equiv=\"content-type\" content=\"text\/html; charset=utf-8\"><\/head><body><div>\n<div class=\"separator\" style=\"clear: both; text-align: center;\"><strong>\u00a0+\u00a0Biblical Evidence for\u00a0the Indefectibility of the Church (from the Psalms)<\/strong><\/div>\n<div class=\"separator\" style=\"clear: both; text-align: center;\"><\/div>\n<div class=\"separator\" style=\"clear: both; text-align: center;\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-media.patheos.com\/blogs\/sites\/572\/2011\/11\/FrancisdeSales2.jpg\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignnone wp-image-5632 size-full\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-media.patheos.com\/blogs\/sites\/572\/2011\/11\/FrancisdeSales2.jpg\" alt=\"FrancisdeSales2\" width=\"622\" height=\"1024\"><\/a><\/div>\n<div class=\"separator\" style=\"clear: both; text-align: center;\"><span style=\"color: #252525;\"><span style=\"color: #252525;\"><span style=\"color: #0000ff;\">Saint Francis de Sales (1567-1622), statue de l\u2019\u00e9glise Saint-Germain de Paris, Rouffignac-Saint-Cernin-de-Reilhac, Dordogne, France. Photo by\u00a0P\u00e8re Igor (9-19-10)<\/span> [<a href=\"https:\/\/commons.wikimedia.org\/wiki\/File:Rouffignac-Saint-Cernin_%C3%A9glise_statue_St_Fran%C3%A7ois_de_Sales.JPG\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\">Wikimedia Commons<\/a> \/\u00a0\u00a0<a class=\"extiw decorated-link\" style=\"color: #663366;\" title=\"w:en:Creative Commons\" href=\"https:\/\/en.wikipedia.org\/wiki\/en:Creative_Commons\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\">Creative Commons<\/a>\u00a0Attribution-Share Alike\u00a0<a class=\"external text decorated-link\" style=\"color: #663366;\" href=\"https:\/\/creativecommons.org\/licenses\/by-sa\/1.0\/deed.en\" rel=\"nofollow\" target=\"_blank\">1.0 Generic<\/a>\u00a0license]<\/span><\/span><\/div>\n<div class=\"separator\" style=\"clear: both; text-align: center;\"><\/div>\n<div style=\"text-align: center;\">(11-24-11)<\/div>\n<div style=\"text-align: center;\"><\/div>\n<div style=\"text-align: center;\">***<\/div>\n<p><b><br>\n<\/b><b>Psalm 14:2-3<\/b> (RSV)<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div style=\"text-align: center;\"><\/div>\n<div style=\"text-align: center;\">The LORD looks down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there are any that act wisely, that seek after God. [3] They have all gone astray, they are all alike corrupt; there is none that does good, no, not one. <span style=\"color: blue;\">[cf. Ps 53:1-3; 143:2; Is 64:6-7; Rom 3:10-12]<\/span><\/div>\n<blockquote class=\"tr_bq\">\n<div class=\"MsoBodyText\">Who knows not the complaint of David . . . \u2014 and who knows not on the other hand that there were many good people in his day?<span style=\"color: blue;\"> [see Ps 7:10; 11:2, 5, 7; 15:2-5; 18:23, 25-26; 24:4; 31:18; 32:11; 33:1; 34:17, 21; 36:10; 37:14, 16, <\/span><span style=\"color: blue;\">\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"color: blue;\">18, 21, 25, 28-32, 37, 39; 52:6; 55:22; 58:10-11; 64:4, 10; 68:3; 73:1; 75:10; 84:11; 92:12; 94:15; 97:11; 101:6; 107:42; 111:1; 112:2, 4-9; 118:20; 119:1, 10; 125:3-4; 140:13; 141:5; 142:7: \u201cupright,\u201d \u201cgood,\u201d \u201crighteous,\u201d \u201cblameless,\u201d \u201cpure\u201d]<\/span> These forms of speech are frequent, but we must not draw a particular conclusion about each individual. Further, \u2014 such things do not prove that faith had failed in the Church, nor that the Church was dead: for it does not follow that if a body is everywhere diseased it is therefore dead. Thus, without doubt, are to be understood all similar things which are found in the threats and rebukes of the Prophets.<\/div>\n<\/blockquote>\n<blockquote class=\"tr_bq\"><p>(<a href=\"http:\/\/www.archive.org\/stream\/catholiccontrove00sain\/catholiccontrove00sain_djvu.txt\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\"><i>The Catholic Controversy<\/i><\/a>, 61-62)<\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p>I added the additional scriptural proofs in brackets and blue color, to bolster what St. Francis assumed as self-evident. Likewise, Isaiah states: \u201call our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment . . . There is no one that calls upon thy name,\u201d (Is 64:6-7), yet makes frequent reference to the righteous, just as in the Psalms (1:17; 3:10; 26:7; 33:15; 38:3; 51:7; 56:1; 57:1-2, 12; 64:5). Isaiah 64:6-7 is typical Hebrew hyperbole. But Protestants, and especially Calvinists with their unbiblical notion of total depravity (not understanding the literary genre) interpret it and similar passages literally. In context, clearly it is <i>not<\/i> intended to be so. In the passage immediately before (Is 64:5), the prophet states: \u201cThou meetest him that joyfully works righteousness.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>***<\/p>\n<\/body><\/html>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>\u00a0+\u00a0Biblical Evidence for\u00a0the Indefectibility of the Church (from the Psalms) Saint Francis de Sales (1567-1622), statue de l\u2019\u00e9glise Saint-Germain de Paris, Rouffignac-Saint-Cernin-de-Reilhac, Dordogne, France. Photo by\u00a0P\u00e8re Igor (9-19-10) [Wikimedia Commons \/\u00a0\u00a0Creative Commons\u00a0Attribution-Share Alike\u00a01.0 Generic\u00a0license] (11-24-11) *** Psalm 14:2-3 (RSV) The LORD looks down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there are [&hellip;]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2331,"featured_media":5632,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[312,131,50],"tags":[1914,163,968,972,890,181,971],"class_list":["post-320","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-calvinism-general-protestantism","category-church-ecclesiology","category-salvation-justification","tag-concupiscence","tag-ecclesiology","tag-fall-of-man","tag-human-nature","tag-indefectibility-of-the-church","tag-original-sin","tag-total-depravity"],"yoast_head":"<!-- This site is optimized with the Yoast SEO plugin v21.1 - 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Formerly a campus missionary, as a Protestant, Dave was received into the Catholic Church in February 1991, by the late, well-known catechist and theologian, Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave\u2019s articles have appeared in many influential Catholic periodicals, including \\\"This Rock\\\" (now called \\\"Catholic Answers Magazine\\\"), \\\"Envoy Magazine\\\" (Patrick Madrid), \\\"The Catholic Answer,\\\" \\\"The Coming Home Journal,\\\" \\\"Gilbert Magazine\\\" (American Chesterton Society), and \\\"The Latin Mass.\\\" He also writes a featured column for every issue of \\\"The Michigan Catholic\\\": published by the archdiocese of Detroit, and was editor for most of the apologetics tracts published by the St. Paul Street Evangelization apostolate. Dave\u2019s apologetics and writing apostolate was the subject of a feature article in the May 2002 issue of \\\"Envoy Magazine.\\\" He served as the staff moderator at the Internet discussion forum for The Coming Home Network, from 2007-2010. Dave has been interviewed on many nationally syndicated Catholic radio shows, including \\\"Catholic Answers Live\\\" (twice), \\\"Faith and Family Live\\\" (Steve Wood), \\\"Kresta in the Afternoon,\\\" \\\"Son Rise Morning Show,\\\" \\\"Catholic Connection\\\" (Teresa Tomeo), and \\\"The Catholics Next Door.\\\" His large and popular website, \\\"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism,\\\" was online from March 1997 to March 2007, and received the 1998 Catholic Website of the Year award from \\\"Envoy Magazine.\\\" His blog of the same name (now transferred to Patheos), begun in February 2004, contains more than 1,500 papers, at least 500 debates or dialogues, and over 50 distinct \\\"index\\\" web pages. Unsolicited correspondence has indicated many hundreds of conversions (or returns) to the Catholic faith as a result, by God's grace, of these writings. Dave's conversion story was published in the bestselling book \\\"Surprised by Truth\\\" (edited by Patrick Madrid; San Diego: Basilica Press, 1994). Sophia Institute Press has published six of his books: \\\"A Biblical Defense of Catholicism\\\" (Foreword by Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J., 1996 \/ 2003), \\\"The Catholic Verses\\\" (2004), \\\"The One-Minute Apologist\\\" (2007), \\\"Bible Proofs for Catholic Truths\\\" (2009), \\\"The Quotable Newman\\\" (editor: 2012), and \\\"Proving the Catholic Faith is Biblical\\\" (2015). He is co-author (with Dr. Paul Thigpen) of the inserts for \\\"The New Catholic Answer Bible\\\" (Our Sunday Visitor: 2005), and editor for \\\"The Wisdom of Mr. Chesterton: The Very Best Quotes, Quips, and Cracks from the Pen of G. K. Chesterton\\\" (Saint Benedict Press \/ TAN Books: 2009). \\\"100 Biblical Arguments Against Sola Scriptura\\\" was published by Catholic Answers in May 2012. His \\\"Quotable Wesley\\\" compilation was published by (Protestant \/ Wesleyan publisher) Beacon Hill Press in April 2014. Several of his 49 books are bestsellers in their field. Dave maintains a popular personal Facebook page, a Facebook author page, and has a Twitter account as well. He offers almost all of his books in e-book form on his own Biblical Catholicism site (http:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/), at a permanent deep discount: only $2.99 for ePub, mobi, and AZW, and $1.99 for PDF. His writing has been enthusiastically endorsed or recommended by many leading Catholic apologists, authors, and priests, including Dr. Scott Hahn, Fr. Peter M. J. Stravinskas, Marcus Grodi, Patrick Madrid, Steve Ray, Tim Staples, Devin Rose, Mike Aquilina, Al Kresta, Karl Keating, Fr. Dwight Longenecker, Brandon Vogt, Marcellino D'Ambrosio, and Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave has been happily married to his wife Judy since October 1984. 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Formerly a campus missionary, as a Protestant, Dave was received into the Catholic Church in February 1991, by the late, well-known catechist and theologian, Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave\u2019s articles have appeared in many influential Catholic periodicals, including \"This Rock\" (now called \"Catholic Answers Magazine\"), \"Envoy Magazine\" (Patrick Madrid), \"The Catholic Answer,\" \"The Coming Home Journal,\" \"Gilbert Magazine\" (American Chesterton Society), and \"The Latin Mass.\" He also writes a featured column for every issue of \"The Michigan Catholic\": published by the archdiocese of Detroit, and was editor for most of the apologetics tracts published by the St. Paul Street Evangelization apostolate. Dave\u2019s apologetics and writing apostolate was the subject of a feature article in the May 2002 issue of \"Envoy Magazine.\" He served as the staff moderator at the Internet discussion forum for The Coming Home Network, from 2007-2010. Dave has been interviewed on many nationally syndicated Catholic radio shows, including \"Catholic Answers Live\" (twice), \"Faith and Family Live\" (Steve Wood), \"Kresta in the Afternoon,\" \"Son Rise Morning Show,\" \"Catholic Connection\" (Teresa Tomeo), and \"The Catholics Next Door.\" His large and popular website, \"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism,\" was online from March 1997 to March 2007, and received the 1998 Catholic Website of the Year award from \"Envoy Magazine.\" His blog of the same name (now transferred to Patheos), begun in February 2004, contains more than 1,500 papers, at least 500 debates or dialogues, and over 50 distinct \"index\" web pages. Unsolicited correspondence has indicated many hundreds of conversions (or returns) to the Catholic faith as a result, by God's grace, of these writings. Dave's conversion story was published in the bestselling book \"Surprised by Truth\" (edited by Patrick Madrid; San Diego: Basilica Press, 1994). Sophia Institute Press has published six of his books: \"A Biblical Defense of Catholicism\" (Foreword by Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J., 1996 \/ 2003), \"The Catholic Verses\" (2004), \"The One-Minute Apologist\" (2007), \"Bible Proofs for Catholic Truths\" (2009), \"The Quotable Newman\" (editor: 2012), and \"Proving the Catholic Faith is Biblical\" (2015). He is co-author (with Dr. Paul Thigpen) of the inserts for \"The New Catholic Answer Bible\" (Our Sunday Visitor: 2005), and editor for \"The Wisdom of Mr. Chesterton: The Very Best Quotes, Quips, and Cracks from the Pen of G. K. Chesterton\" (Saint Benedict Press \/ TAN Books: 2009). \"100 Biblical Arguments Against Sola Scriptura\" was published by Catholic Answers in May 2012. His \"Quotable Wesley\" compilation was published by (Protestant \/ Wesleyan publisher) Beacon Hill Press in April 2014. Several of his 49 books are bestsellers in their field. Dave maintains a popular personal Facebook page, a Facebook author page, and has a Twitter account as well. He offers almost all of his books in e-book form on his own Biblical Catholicism site (http:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/), at a permanent deep discount: only $2.99 for ePub, mobi, and AZW, and $1.99 for PDF. His writing has been enthusiastically endorsed or recommended by many leading Catholic apologists, authors, and priests, including Dr. Scott Hahn, Fr. Peter M. J. Stravinskas, Marcus Grodi, Patrick Madrid, Steve Ray, Tim Staples, Devin Rose, Mike Aquilina, Al Kresta, Karl Keating, Fr. Dwight Longenecker, Brandon Vogt, Marcellino D'Ambrosio, and Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave has been happily married to his wife Judy since October 1984. They have three sons and a daughter, and reside in southeast Michigan (metro Detroit).","sameAs":["https:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/","https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/dave.armstrong.798","https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/@LuxVeritatisApologetics"],"url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/author\/davearmstrong"}]}},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/320","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/2331"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=320"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/320\/revisions"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/5632"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=320"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=320"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=320"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}