{"id":32126,"date":"2019-04-27T17:59:04","date_gmt":"2019-04-27T21:59:04","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/admin.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/?p=32126"},"modified":"2019-04-27T17:59:04","modified_gmt":"2019-04-27T21:59:04","slug":"exchange-definitions-of-deism-atheism-twain-the-atheist","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2019\/04\/exchange-definitions-of-deism-atheism-twain-the-atheist.html","title":{"rendered":"Exchange: Definitions of Deism & Atheism \/ Twain the Atheist?"},"content":{"rendered":"\n<\/head>

\"\"<\/p>\n

This occurred on my blog. One \u201cRobotczar\u201d (safely anonymous, with no further access information known) commented on my 2006 paper, Were Abraham Lincoln and Mark Twain Atheists?<\/a>\u00a0 His words will be in blue<\/span>.<\/p>\n

*****<\/p>\n

Your comment is remarkable in its utter non-interaction with anything in the post. But that is a fashionable thing to do in these days of lack of rationality and rational dialogue.<\/p>\n

A couple of points: First, the religious try hard to make atheism have a very precise definition\u2013one that has atheism apply to the smallest number of people.<\/span><\/p>\n

Really? I didn\u2019t notice that. Random House Dictionary<\/em> (Dictionary.com) defines atheism<\/a> as:<\/p>\n

1. the doctrine or belief that there is no God.<\/p>\n

2. disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

That\u2019s not rocket science. The etymology is derived from the Greek atheos<\/em>\u00a0which means literally, \u201cwithout god\u201d. The more recent origin was c. 1580s, from the French ath\u00e9isme<\/em>.<\/p>\n

They have invented terms like \u201cdeist\u201d to not count people as atheists, even though they don\u2019t believe in any sort of god that any real religion does.<\/span><\/p>\n

You\u2019re just filled with interesting \u201cfactoids\u201d (??) today. Random House Dictionary<\/em> defines \u201cdeism\u201d<\/a> as:<\/p>\n

1. belief in the existence of a God on the evidence of reason and nature only, with rejection of supernatural revelation (distinguished from theism ).<\/p>\n

2. belief in a God who created the world but has since remained indifferent to it.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

You\u2019re the one who has smuggled in the notion that deism is actually atheism because it involves no (supernatural) religion. But that is a non sequitur<\/em>, since belief in God is not necessarily, inherently religious in the first place. Hence, many philosophers have believed in a bare theism, while not adhering to any particular religious view.<\/p>\n

In other words, theism and deism are larger categories, that transcend religion alone. Deism is precisely a sort of \u201ctheism stripped of supernatural \/ religious elements.\u201d But it doesn\u2019t cease to be belief in God altogether, merely because it isn\u2019t \u201creligious.\u201d<\/p>\n

I have not noticed what you claim. If we look, for example, at what an actual deist states concerning the belief-system\u2019s origins, we see something very different from your scenario. See: \u201cA Brief History of Deism\u201d<\/a> by Chuck Clendenen.<\/p>\n

In fact, everyone is an atheist because they all don\u2019t believe in somebody else\u2019s god.<\/span><\/p>\n

Again, that is your peculiar slant; and neither general nor dictionary usage. Atheism is a denial that God exists, not a denial of \u201csomebody else\u2019s god.\u201d<\/p>\n

But you show yourself at least an interesting thinker, if not particularly accurate to reality.<\/p>\n

Second, even in these semi-enlighted [sic] times, a majority of the mindless despise atheists.<\/span><\/p>\n

One would expect that. It\u2019s also true at the same time that many atheists utterly despise Christians and other religious believers as dolts and ignoramuses, as even a cursory glance at atheist sites online will quickly prove. Bottom line: folks of all stripes tend to be prejudiced against those who are different than they are.<\/p>\n

Speaking for myself, I have infinitely more respect on many levels, for thoughtful, amiable atheists I have interacted with than for fundamentalist anti-Catholic Protestants: even though the latter are Christians.<\/p>\n

Admitting to being one will guarantee you won\u2019t get elected, many people won\u2019t buy your stuff, and they won\u2019t let you marry their daughter or son.<\/span><\/p>\n

There has been a lot of prejudice, yes, although if your definitions hold (which I deny), Thomas Jefferson was close to deist in belief<\/a>\u00a0(he called himself a Unitarian at least two times that we know of) and he was the President over 200 years ago. Others are scarcely \u201creligious\u201d according to many of us who are that, including the current office-holder.<\/p>\n

It\u2019s almost if not just as likely that an overtly religious person will also be scorned from high office. Thus, for example, Rick Santorum was scorned and slandered in the 2012 primaries as a religious fanatic (much as Vice President Mike Pence is treated now).<\/p>\n

So, there is a big incentive to prevaricate, or avoid the topic. In the past this situation was even worse. Imagine what would happen to his sales if it got out that Twain was an atheist, which he certainly was.<\/span><\/p>\n

Again, you merely assert things, which is not rational argument. My article gave actual quotes from Twain. But you simply ignore them and make your bald claims. This is most unimpressive.<\/p>\n

\u201cI do not fear death. I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience from it.\u201d \u2014 Mark Twain.<\/span><\/p>\n

This is not incompatible with Christianity, since we were not in existence before we were born, either; hence, proves nothing with regard to your claim. It does, I grant, imply that after death he will be nonexistent as well, but it\u2019s not absolutely certain from this one quote; therefore, more data is needed to make a final determination of Twain\u2019s beliefs regarding God or lack thereof.<\/p>\n

My article provided some of that, but you ignored<\/em> it, which is almost par for the course today, since dialogue seems to be almost an unknown (if not despised) art anymore.<\/p>\n

***<\/p>\n

(originally 4-24-14)<\/p>\n

Photo credit:<\/strong> 1895 photograph of Mark Twain (1835-1910) by Napoleon Sarony (1821-1896)<\/span> [public domain \/ Wikimedia Commons<\/a>]<\/p>\n

***<\/p>\n<\/body><\/html>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

This occurred on my blog. One \u201cRobotczar\u201d (safely anonymous, with no further access information known) commented on my 2006 paper, Were Abraham Lincoln and Mark Twain Atheists?\u00a0 His words will be in blue. ***** Your comment is remarkable in its utter non-interaction with anything in the post. But that is a fashionable thing to do […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2331,"featured_media":32129,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[124],"tags":[258,335,1045,8462,4113,4109,4110,4112],"class_list":["post-32126","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-atheism-agnosticism","tag-atheism","tag-atheists","tag-deism","tag-deist","tag-deists","tag-famous-atheists","tag-mark-twain","tag-theists"],"yoast_head":"\nExchange: Definitions of Deism & Atheism \/ Twain the Atheist?<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"Dictionaries exist for a reason. We can look up these secular sources in order to obtain adequate definitions of both atheism and deism. 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Dave has been interviewed on many nationally syndicated Catholic radio shows, including \"Catholic Answers Live\" (twice), \"Faith and Family Live\" (Steve Wood), \"Kresta in the Afternoon,\" \"Son Rise Morning Show,\" \"Catholic Connection\" (Teresa Tomeo), and \"The Catholics Next Door.\" His large and popular website, \"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism,\" was online from March 1997 to March 2007, and received the 1998 Catholic Website of the Year award from \"Envoy Magazine.\" His blog of the same name (now transferred to Patheos), begun in February 2004, contains more than 1,500 papers, at least 500 debates or dialogues, and over 50 distinct \"index\" web pages. Unsolicited correspondence has indicated many hundreds of conversions (or returns) to the Catholic faith as a result, by God's grace, of these writings. Dave's conversion story was published in the bestselling book \"Surprised by Truth\" (edited by Patrick Madrid; San Diego: Basilica Press, 1994). Sophia Institute Press has published six of his books: \"A Biblical Defense of Catholicism\" (Foreword by Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J., 1996 \/ 2003), \"The Catholic Verses\" (2004), \"The One-Minute Apologist\" (2007), \"Bible Proofs for Catholic Truths\" (2009), \"The Quotable Newman\" (editor: 2012), and \"Proving the Catholic Faith is Biblical\" (2015). He is co-author (with Dr. Paul Thigpen) of the inserts for \"The New Catholic Answer Bible\" (Our Sunday Visitor: 2005), and editor for \"The Wisdom of Mr. Chesterton: The Very Best Quotes, Quips, and Cracks from the Pen of G. K. Chesterton\" (Saint Benedict Press \/ TAN Books: 2009). \"100 Biblical Arguments Against Sola Scriptura\" was published by Catholic Answers in May 2012. His \"Quotable Wesley\" compilation was published by (Protestant \/ Wesleyan publisher) Beacon Hill Press in April 2014. Several of his 49 books are bestsellers in their field. 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