{"id":32348,"date":"2019-05-02T11:15:40","date_gmt":"2019-05-02T15:15:40","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/admin.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/?p=32348"},"modified":"2019-05-02T11:15:53","modified_gmt":"2019-05-02T15:15:53","slug":"dialogue-w-agnostic-on-my-critiques-of-deconversions","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2019\/05\/dialogue-w-agnostic-on-my-critiques-of-deconversions.html","title":{"rendered":"Dialogue w Agnostic on my Critiques of Deconversions"},"content":{"rendered":"\n<\/head>

\"\"<\/p>\n

VicqRuiz<\/a> was replying to one portion of my paper, Unanswered Questions for a Former Catholic Atheist<\/a>, in the combox underneath it. His words will be in blue.<\/span><\/p>\n

*****<\/p>\n

[me] 5. Could you have passed a quiz on the basic doctrines of Christianity(say, those agreed-upon by virtually all Christians: Nicene Creed-type beliefs): let alone the more specifically, distinctively Catholic doctrines?<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

(Apologies if I\u2019ve posted the comment below on your site before, I have raised this question several times on several different blogs)<\/span><\/p>\n

I spent the first sixteen years of my life as one of the few Scandahoovian, unbelieving kids in a very Eastern European (mostly Polish and Czech), very cradle Catholic, neighborhood of Chicago.<\/span><\/p>\n

And to the best of my recollection, most of the neighborhood kids and their parents were not particularly learned in theology. Their Catholicism seemed very much centered upon custom and ritual, rather than examination of the doctrines of the faith. In other words, they \u201cjust believed\u201d.<\/span><\/p>\n

That\u2019s perfectly fine by me. I have no desire whatever to weaken the faith of those who \u201cjust believe\u201d, and would never press the works of skeptical philosophers upon then with the insistence that unless they can read and disprove them, their faith is unsubstantiated.<\/span><\/p>\n

I don\u2019t think it works both ways.<\/span><\/p>\n

It seems to me that Christian apologists, and in particular Catholics, are unwilling to accept the idea that unbelievers, whether of the cradle sort or whether \u201cdeconverted\u201d, are entitled to \u201cjust not believe\u201d. There is an insistence that unless the unbeliever can in detail dispense with the specific creeds and dogmas of Christianity, that his unbelief is not to be fully respected.<\/span><\/p>\n

Again, as I have already alluded to, it\u2019s two different things. The average Catholic or Protestant or Orthodox has a lousy, usually nonexistent knowledge of apologetics. I totally agree there. But they are not making the claim, \u201cI believe in x<\/em> because of a, b, c<\/em>, . . . \u201d<\/p>\n

The deconvert, on the other hand, who takes the trouble to\u00a0publicly write about their reasons for leaving Christianity<\/i><\/b>, is making the claim, \u201cChristianity [and the Bible] are false because of d, e, f<\/em> , . . .\u201d<\/p>\n

In other words, if they want to \u201cjust not believe\u201d and go about their business and not pester Christians for their beliefs, or in effect, \u201cpreach atheism\u201d then the question to be asked is, \u201cwhy are they making this a public<\/em> issue and making claims that can now be examined in the public arena of ideas and inquiry?\u201d If they aren\u2019t willing to engage on that stage, then why did they write their story? Just for the atheist choir?<\/p>\n

If they write about it in public, then they are in effect implying that they are willing to engage one who disagrees. Yet when I come around and disagree, it\u2019s 90% rank hostility for even daring to think of doing such an outrageous thing (with some of the more well-known atheists, like John Loftus, getting the\u00a0most<\/i>\u00a0angry<\/a> and out-of-control offended). It makes no sense.<\/p>\n

If you want to be a blissfully happy atheist who can\u2019t defend why you are one (just like most Christians can\u2019t defend their beliefs, either: which is why I do what I do), then go do it and be silent. But if you \u201ccome out and fight,\u201d don\u2019t urinate your pants and moan if an apologist like me attempts to be a gadfly and puncture this bubble of reality that you have constructed.<\/p>\n

All I\u2019m doing as an apologist is taking a critical look at d, e, f<\/em>, and any other reasons given, to see if they can stand up to scrutiny. So far, in my opinion, with over 25 or so such analyses done<\/a>, I\u2019ve yet to find a former Christian whose reasons d-f<\/em>, etc. could stand up to and withstand critique. That is my experience. I can\u2019t change it. I don\u2019t claim that it\u2019s universal. But it is<\/em> a striking unanimity of theological ignorance and straw men.<\/p>\n

Therefore, I conclude that the given rational reasons in these particular cases, for rejecting Christianity, fail.<\/p>\n

In order to overcome those arguments of mine, the atheist or agnostic has to show how my counter-reasoning goes astray. So far, few if any want to do that. They go right to meta-analysis: much like you have done here. That\u2019s fine, but it\u2019s fundamentally different from my endeavor.<\/p>\n

Lastly, my #5 that you cite, and my #4, dealt with catechesis<\/em> (what<\/em> we believe), not apologetics<\/em> (why<\/em> we believe what we believe). Thus, I was simply looking to see if this person could\u00a0identify basic Christian beliefs<\/i>\u00a0in, say, a multiple-choice test.<\/p>\n

***<\/p>\n

Photo credit:\u00a0<\/strong> Alberto G.<\/a>\u00a0(7-26-06)<\/span> [Flickr<\/a> \/ CC BY 2.0<\/a> license]<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

***<\/p>\n<\/body><\/html>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

VicqRuiz was replying to one portion of my paper, Unanswered Questions for a Former Catholic Atheist, in the combox underneath it. His words will be in blue. ***** [me] 5. Could you have passed a quiz on the basic doctrines of Christianity(say, those agreed-upon by virtually all Christians: Nicene Creed-type beliefs): let alone the more […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2331,"featured_media":32351,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[124],"tags":[151,258,645,335,8465,744,254,742,743,6135,1456,2032],"class_list":["post-32348","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-atheism-agnosticism","tag-apostasy","tag-atheism","tag-atheist-deconversion-stories","tag-atheists","tag-deconversions","tag-ex-christians","tag-faith-and-reason","tag-falling-away-from-faith","tag-former-christians","tag-freethinker","tag-science-christianity","tag-theological-education"],"yoast_head":"\nDialogue w Agnostic on my Critiques of Deconversions<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"If atheists write about their deconversions in public, then they are in effect implying that they are willing to engage one who critiques same. 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