{"id":3264,"date":"2015-09-16T00:52:42","date_gmt":"2015-09-16T04:52:42","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/admin.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/?p=3264"},"modified":"2017-05-20T16:52:34","modified_gmt":"2017-05-20T20:52:34","slug":"god-no-more-believable-than-santa-claus","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2015\/09\/god-no-more-believable-than-santa-claus.html","title":{"rendered":"God: Is He No More Believable than Santa Claus?"},"content":{"rendered":"\n<\/head>

\"SantaNast\"<\/a><\/p>\n

Thomas Nast\u2019s most famous drawing, Merry Old Santa Claus<\/em>, from the January 1, 1881 edition of\u00a0Harper\u2019s Weekly<\/i><\/span>.<\/span> [public domain \/ Wikimedia Commons<\/a>]<\/span><\/p>\n

This is an old atheist garden variety chestnut from the playbook. It came from the combox of my predictably controversial post, T<\/a>he\u00a0Atheist\u00a0Obsession\u00a0with\u00a0Insulting\u00a0Christians<\/a>. The words of MountainDewFan4<\/a>\u00a0 will be in blue<\/span>. The words of Casey<\/a> will be in green<\/span>. Both are atheists.<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

* * * * *<\/p>\n

Here is my \u201cdeconversion story\u201d. At the early age of 8, I determined that Santa Claus could not possibly exist, that the Tooth Fairy wasn\u2019t the one leaving me money, and that God was not real.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

The same logic which I used to tell my 8 year old self that Santa could not possibly exist, was the same logic that my 8 year old self used to determine that God could not possibly exist.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

I have never once since that day thought \u2026 \u201cWell perhaps there is an invisible being who can see you when you\u2019re sleeping and when you\u2019re awake, and can know the thoughts of every child across the world, and can give everyone presents at the same time\u201d. So therefore I still do not believe in God.<\/span><\/p>\n

Why do atheists insult Christians? Well, think about what you would say to a grown man who told you that he HONESTLY TRULY believed in Santa Claus. I\u2019m sure that even you would not be able to hold back an insult or two.<\/span><\/p>\n

I realize that YOU do not see God and Santa Claus as being even close to the same. However, try to keep in mind that many atheists view them similarly. We feel that there is just as much proof for God as there is for Santa. We feel that the amazing feats that Santa is supposed to be able to pull off actually pale in comparison to the feats that God is supposed to have pulled off.<\/span><\/p>\n

Therefore we view people who believe in God similarly to how you would view people who believe is Santa.<\/span><\/p>\n

I don\u2019t care if atheists equate Santa Claus and God. I know that is ridiculous for the reasons I have stated many times: Santa Claus isn\u2019t the topic of many thousands of great theologians and philosophers through the centuries. Santa Claus is for children<\/em>, not grown adults who have full rational capacities.<\/span><\/p>\n

If all these great minds think they have more than ample reason for the existence of God, God can\u2019t be dismissed by the wave of a hand.<\/span><\/p>\n

Now you<\/em>\u00a0may not give a rat\u2019s rear end about the<\/span> history of philosophy or of theology or science<\/a> (overwhelmingly begun and furthered by theists) or ideas in general. I do, because I respect thinkers other than myself.<\/span><\/p>\n

And that is one reason why we come to different results. I think like an adult, familiar with the history of philosophy and what the vast majority of great thinkers have held.<\/span><\/p>\n

You think [when it comes to God] like an eight-year-old and haven\u2019t (apparently, by your own admission above) advanced beyond that. :-)<\/span><\/p>\n

Touche!<\/span><\/p>\n

Wouldn\u2019t this be one of those insults you are referring to in this very post?<\/span><\/p>\n

No, this would be humor<\/em>. See the smiley icon? Those are important in online discussion. I know \u201cmountain\u201d a bit. You guys need to lighten up.
\n<\/span><\/p>\n

The smiley doesn\u2019t negate the fact that you just insulted someone\u2019s intelligence, the very thing you are railing against. It\u2019s not just tone that makes an insult, but also content.<\/span><\/p>\n

You miss the point. He himself<\/em>\u00a0said that his views about God came about when he was eight, and have remained the same ever since. I was simply stating back to him a little more pointedly, what he said himself. He set himself up for that one. It was an easy retort.<\/span><\/p>\n

It\u2019s okay for him to \u201cargue\u201d that adult Christians are acting just like kids who believe in Santa Claus (you haven\u2019t said one peep about that), but if I turn it around and make the obvious point that he is an adult whose views of God haven\u2019t advanced since he was eight (by his own<\/em>\u00a0admission), all of a sudden this is a huge insult.<\/span><\/p>\n

If mine is such an \u201cinsult\u201d, so is his<\/em>, just as much. But instead you insist that mine<\/em> is, and ignore his<\/em> remark of the same nature.<\/span><\/p>\n

It\u2019s humor<\/em><\/strong>. People have to lighten up. If you don\u2019t like sarcasm and satire and a rather pointed wit at times, you won\u2019t like my writing, so I recommend that you stop now, to avoid further frustration.<\/span><\/p>\n

I absolutely disagree with his assertion that Christians are like children who believe in Santa. The only reason I pointed this out is that the comment smacked quite a bit of insult, and you had just written an entire post about how how insulting atheists are. You didn\u2019t say he held the same position as he did when he was eight. You said that he hadn\u2019t progressed. Two different things, although I admit it is a fine line.<\/span><\/p>\n

Whatever. We\u2019ll have to agree to disagree on that. I\u2019m glad to hear you don\u2019t make the same equation.<\/span><\/p>\n

It\u2019s alright Dave, I did not take it as an insult.<\/span><\/p>\n

I think that your comment however is not valid. You learned that 2+2 = 4 when you were 8 years old (or hopefully earlier). Since then nothing you have seen or read about in life has made you change your mind. You still to this day believe that 2+2 does in fact equal 4. Does that mean that when you are balancing your checkbook that you are thinking like an 8 year old? Of course not.<\/span><\/p>\n

I have heard and read plenty of arguments for and against the belief in God (and Santa) since I was 8 years old. However, none of them were strong enough for me to start believing in either of them.<\/span><\/p>\n

You bring up philosophy and theology and seem to claim that since some smart people claim that it might be possible that a god can exist, therefore it must be true.<\/span><\/p>\n

However, you fail to mention the millions of scientists, biologists, physicists, etc. who have done years and years of research, studies and experimentation and conclude that life was not started by some paranormal means.<\/span><\/p>\n

I don\u2019t have the answers, I don\u2019t think I\u2019ll ever understand the complex quantum mechanical theories involved in some of the things I have read. However, that does not mean that I should suddenly start believing that God did everything.<\/span><\/p>\n

The lack of an answer does not instantly mean that God is the answer!<\/span><\/p>\n

That\u2019s not the argument, but a caricature of what I meant. This would be the<\/span> genetic<\/a> and<\/span> ad populum<\/em><\/a> fallacies (truth based on who proclaims it or based on a lot of people holding it).<\/span><\/p>\n

My<\/em> <\/strong>point is that, given the fact that many thousands of philosophers, theologians, and scientists have believed in God, but not in Santa Claus, it\u2019s rather silly to put God and Santa Claus in the exact same epistemological boat. There is\u00a0<\/em><\/strong>a plain, obvious difference there. It\u2019s a reason to more closely consider<\/em> theistic arguments, not a proof<\/em> in and of itself of God\u2019s existence.<\/span><\/p>\n

No matter how many atheists are also prominent in philosophy and science does not overcome my point, which is that the sharp folks who believed in God did not place Santa Claus in the same category of likelihood<\/em>. That goes against your breezy, casual claim that the two beliefs were equivalent and equally compelling (which is, not at all).<\/span><\/p>\n<\/body><\/html>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

Thomas Nast\u2019s most famous drawing, Merry Old Santa Claus, from the January 1, 1881 edition of\u00a0Harper\u2019s Weekly. [public domain \/ Wikimedia Commons] This is an old atheist garden variety chestnut from the playbook. It came from the combox of my predictably controversial post, The\u00a0Atheist\u00a0Obsession\u00a0with\u00a0Insulting\u00a0Christians. The words of MountainDewFan4\u00a0 will be in blue. The words of […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2331,"featured_media":3265,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[124],"tags":[639,119,253],"class_list":["post-3264","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-atheism-agnosticism","tag-atheism-agnosticism-2","tag-philosophy-of-religion","tag-theistic-arguments"],"yoast_head":"\nGod: Is He No More Believable than Santa Claus?<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"Santa Claus isn't a subject of many thousands of great theologians and philosophers through the centuries. 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Dave\u2019s apologetics and writing apostolate was the subject of a feature article in the May 2002 issue of \\\"Envoy Magazine.\\\" He served as the staff moderator at the Internet discussion forum for The Coming Home Network, from 2007-2010. Dave has been interviewed on many nationally syndicated Catholic radio shows, including \\\"Catholic Answers Live\\\" (twice), \\\"Faith and Family Live\\\" (Steve Wood), \\\"Kresta in the Afternoon,\\\" \\\"Son Rise Morning Show,\\\" \\\"Catholic Connection\\\" (Teresa Tomeo), and \\\"The Catholics Next Door.\\\" His large and popular website, \\\"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism,\\\" was online from March 1997 to March 2007, and received the 1998 Catholic Website of the Year award from \\\"Envoy Magazine.\\\" His blog of the same name (now transferred to Patheos), begun in February 2004, contains more than 1,500 papers, at least 500 debates or dialogues, and over 50 distinct \\\"index\\\" web pages. Unsolicited correspondence has indicated many hundreds of conversions (or returns) to the Catholic faith as a result, by God's grace, of these writings. Dave's conversion story was published in the bestselling book \\\"Surprised by Truth\\\" (edited by Patrick Madrid; San Diego: Basilica Press, 1994). Sophia Institute Press has published six of his books: \\\"A Biblical Defense of Catholicism\\\" (Foreword by Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J., 1996 \/ 2003), \\\"The Catholic Verses\\\" (2004), \\\"The One-Minute Apologist\\\" (2007), \\\"Bible Proofs for Catholic Truths\\\" (2009), \\\"The Quotable Newman\\\" (editor: 2012), and \\\"Proving the Catholic Faith is Biblical\\\" (2015). He is co-author (with Dr. Paul Thigpen) of the inserts for \\\"The New Catholic Answer Bible\\\" (Our Sunday Visitor: 2005), and editor for \\\"The Wisdom of Mr. Chesterton: The Very Best Quotes, Quips, and Cracks from the Pen of G. K. Chesterton\\\" (Saint Benedict Press \/ TAN Books: 2009). \\\"100 Biblical Arguments Against Sola Scriptura\\\" was published by Catholic Answers in May 2012. His \\\"Quotable Wesley\\\" compilation was published by (Protestant \/ Wesleyan publisher) Beacon Hill Press in April 2014. Several of his 49 books are bestsellers in their field. Dave maintains a popular personal Facebook page, a Facebook author page, and has a Twitter account as well. He offers almost all of his books in e-book form on his own Biblical Catholicism site (http:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/), at a permanent deep discount: only $2.99 for ePub, mobi, and AZW, and $1.99 for PDF. His writing has been enthusiastically endorsed or recommended by many leading Catholic apologists, authors, and priests, including Dr. Scott Hahn, Fr. Peter M. J. Stravinskas, Marcus Grodi, Patrick Madrid, Steve Ray, Tim Staples, Devin Rose, Mike Aquilina, Al Kresta, Karl Keating, Fr. Dwight Longenecker, Brandon Vogt, Marcellino D'Ambrosio, and Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave has been happily married to his wife Judy since October 1984. They have three sons and a daughter, and reside in southeast Michigan (metro Detroit).\",\"sameAs\":[\"https:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/\",\"https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/dave.armstrong.798\",\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/@LuxVeritatisApologetics\"],\"url\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/author\/davearmstrong\"}]}<\/script>\n<!-- \/ Yoast SEO plugin. -->","yoast_head_json":{"title":"God: Is He No More Believable than Santa Claus?","description":"Santa Claus isn't a subject of many thousands of great theologians and philosophers through the centuries. 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Formerly a campus missionary, as a Protestant, Dave was received into the Catholic Church in February 1991, by the late, well-known catechist and theologian, Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave\u2019s articles have appeared in many influential Catholic periodicals, including \"This Rock\" (now called \"Catholic Answers Magazine\"), \"Envoy Magazine\" (Patrick Madrid), \"The Catholic Answer,\" \"The Coming Home Journal,\" \"Gilbert Magazine\" (American Chesterton Society), and \"The Latin Mass.\" He also writes a featured column for every issue of \"The Michigan Catholic\": published by the archdiocese of Detroit, and was editor for most of the apologetics tracts published by the St. Paul Street Evangelization apostolate. Dave\u2019s apologetics and writing apostolate was the subject of a feature article in the May 2002 issue of \"Envoy Magazine.\" He served as the staff moderator at the Internet discussion forum for The Coming Home Network, from 2007-2010. Dave has been interviewed on many nationally syndicated Catholic radio shows, including \"Catholic Answers Live\" (twice), \"Faith and Family Live\" (Steve Wood), \"Kresta in the Afternoon,\" \"Son Rise Morning Show,\" \"Catholic Connection\" (Teresa Tomeo), and \"The Catholics Next Door.\" His large and popular website, \"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism,\" was online from March 1997 to March 2007, and received the 1998 Catholic Website of the Year award from \"Envoy Magazine.\" His blog of the same name (now transferred to Patheos), begun in February 2004, contains more than 1,500 papers, at least 500 debates or dialogues, and over 50 distinct \"index\" web pages. Unsolicited correspondence has indicated many hundreds of conversions (or returns) to the Catholic faith as a result, by God's grace, of these writings. Dave's conversion story was published in the bestselling book \"Surprised by Truth\" (edited by Patrick Madrid; San Diego: Basilica Press, 1994). Sophia Institute Press has published six of his books: \"A Biblical Defense of Catholicism\" (Foreword by Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J., 1996 \/ 2003), \"The Catholic Verses\" (2004), \"The One-Minute Apologist\" (2007), \"Bible Proofs for Catholic Truths\" (2009), \"The Quotable Newman\" (editor: 2012), and \"Proving the Catholic Faith is Biblical\" (2015). He is co-author (with Dr. Paul Thigpen) of the inserts for \"The New Catholic Answer Bible\" (Our Sunday Visitor: 2005), and editor for \"The Wisdom of Mr. Chesterton: The Very Best Quotes, Quips, and Cracks from the Pen of G. K. Chesterton\" (Saint Benedict Press \/ TAN Books: 2009). \"100 Biblical Arguments Against Sola Scriptura\" was published by Catholic Answers in May 2012. His \"Quotable Wesley\" compilation was published by (Protestant \/ Wesleyan publisher) Beacon Hill Press in April 2014. Several of his 49 books are bestsellers in their field. Dave maintains a popular personal Facebook page, a Facebook author page, and has a Twitter account as well. He offers almost all of his books in e-book form on his own Biblical Catholicism site (http:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/), at a permanent deep discount: only $2.99 for ePub, mobi, and AZW, and $1.99 for PDF. His writing has been enthusiastically endorsed or recommended by many leading Catholic apologists, authors, and priests, including Dr. Scott Hahn, Fr. Peter M. J. Stravinskas, Marcus Grodi, Patrick Madrid, Steve Ray, Tim Staples, Devin Rose, Mike Aquilina, Al Kresta, Karl Keating, Fr. Dwight Longenecker, Brandon Vogt, Marcellino D'Ambrosio, and Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave has been happily married to his wife Judy since October 1984. They have three sons and a daughter, and reside in southeast Michigan (metro Detroit).","sameAs":["https:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/","https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/dave.armstrong.798","https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/@LuxVeritatisApologetics"],"url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/author\/davearmstrong"}]}},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/3264","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/2331"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=3264"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/3264\/revisions"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/3265"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=3264"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=3264"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=3264"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}