{"id":3278,"date":"2015-09-16T12:37:15","date_gmt":"2015-09-16T16:37:15","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/admin.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/?p=3278"},"modified":"2017-05-20T16:45:07","modified_gmt":"2017-05-20T20:45:07","slug":"on-critiquing-atheist-deconversion-stories","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2015\/09\/on-critiquing-atheist-deconversion-stories.html","title":{"rendered":"On My Reason for Critiquing Atheist “Deconversion” Stories"},"content":{"rendered":"\n<\/head>

\"AtheistBornAgain\"<\/a><\/p>\n

Photograph by Danny Birchall<\/span> [Flickr <\/a>\/ CC By 2.0<\/a> license]<\/p>\n

Jon Curry<\/a> is an atheist I actually know in person and consider a friend. I\u2019ve invited him twice to my house, to do presentations. His son and my daughter attend a group homeschooling place together, and we know his wife, too, from that school. He invited me to his group of atheist and agnostic friends, where I was treated with courtesy and politeness. This exchange occurred in the combox for my post, The Atheist Obsession with Insulting Christians<\/a>. His words will be in blue<\/span>.<\/p>\n

* * * * *<\/p>\n

I think critiqueing someone\u2019s deconversion story is a dangerous game. When a person explains the reasons they changed their opinion on such a critical, life changing type issue, and if you reply to that in a way that is dismissive or pronounces the person irrational, well that\u2019s going to evoke anger.<\/span><\/p>\n

If I tell you some of the individual reasons for why I changed my view and you respond with \u201cWell, that alone is an irrational reason to leave the faith\u201d, that\u2019s probably going to bother me a lot, because it\u2019s going to say to me at a moment when I was trusting you and sharing with you hoping you could empathize with me, it\u2019s going to say that you aren\u2019t listening to me because you care. You\u2019re listening only to dismiss me as irrational or to find some ammo against me. You\u2019re not being a friend to me. If you dismiss me as irrational you in a sense reject my efforts at connecting, and it\u2019s hurtful. If you want to argue, that\u2019s fine, but if you want to know me personally and how I got to where I am you should focus on listening.<\/span><\/p>\n

I think there is a lot of validity in what you say; a legitimate point. It\u2019s difficult to draw a proper balance at times. A lot depends on the situation. One can listen and extend sympathy in one situation and critique ideas in another. The two aren\u2019t mutually exclusive. I simultaneously critique atheism and try to find common ground with atheists, too, in an attitude of respect and listening (exactly what I\u2019m doing right now<\/em>). When we got together at the restaurant, I spent a great deal<\/em> of time listening: probably at least as much as I talked (especially with Vijaya: is that how her name is spelled?); and there was only one o\u2019 me and six o\u2019 y\u2019all.<\/span><\/p>\n

You spent most of the time, as I recall, preaching left-wing politics . . . LOL<\/span><\/p>\n

If you and I were sitting somewhere and you said something like, \u201cthese are the reasons why I left Christianity; what really hurt me and caused me a lot of pain . . .\u201d etc., then absolutely that would be a time for listening, friend to friend, man to man. Surely you would know that I would disagree with many of your reasons, but I would listen and hopefully be a friend.<\/span><\/p>\n

But as an apologist, generally speaking (in the public arena), I have to defend Christianity, and that includes critiquing reasons given to reject Christianity. If those reasons are inadequate, then it is my task to show how<\/em>\u00a0and why<\/em> they are, in order to prevent existing Christians from using them as reasons to leave (which is, of course, a large part of the reason for these deconversion stories: to persuade others to forsake Christianity as well).<\/span><\/p>\n

In effect, these deconversion stories are the atheist equivalent of Christian preaching or evangelism. They are intended to persuade; to make the movement grow; to embolden others to \u201ccome out\u201d and do the previously unthinkable thing: reject Christianity: very much in internal purpose like our own testimonies.<\/span><\/p>\n

Therefore, we are equally<\/em> entitled to critique<\/em> them; since they are presented in public in the first place, not in private, man-to-man, eye-to-eye, sitting by the fire or in some restaurant talking about the problems of life, kids, work frustrations, etc. Public material (that attacks Christianity) is fair game. Surely you can\u2019t object to that!<\/span><\/p>\n

I recall that when John Loftus explained the process that led to his change of views he really bared his soul, admitted to infidelity, admitted to various failings, and the reaction of some Christians, particularly those at Triablogue, was so callous, so dismissive, that it was really quite grotesque. They quickly revealed that they have no concern for John as a human being. They don\u2019t want to understand his feelings and his hurts. They want to twist the knife, make it as painful as possible. He was angry in response, and I think anyone with normal levels of empathy can understand. At Triablogue though they are on another level of cruelty. Atheists are not just people with which they disagree. Atheists to them are animals. For me animals deserve kindly treatment, so really I should say atheists are less than animals. Hurting atheists really gives them pleasure. Atheists get angry in reaction. It\u2019s not surprising.<\/span><\/p>\n

You bring up Loftus. First of all, we should note (full disclosure) that you and your friends agreed that he often does a terrible job debating, and puts forth a negative image of atheists.<\/span><\/p>\n

Secondly, he put up his website called Debunking Christianity<\/em>. The whole purpose of the enterprise is right in the title. His own endless articles, including his deconversion story, are part of this effort. I don\u2019t see how you could argue that he should be able to write that and tear down beliefs that we Christians consider sacred and true, while we cannot critique them at all? Of course<\/em> we can! If he wants to try to publicly<\/em> \u201cdebunk\u201d Christianity (including his deconversion story), we have every right to defend it and show where his reasoning went awry and astray.<\/span><\/p>\n

You make a great point about how some<\/em>\u00a0Christians treated John Loftus. Whom do you mention as examples, though: the people at Tribalblogue<\/em>: Steve Hays et al. Per the point I have made above, these are fundamentalist bigots, who are also anti-Catholics. Hays believe in a 10,000-year-old earth.<\/span><\/p>\n

I know how they treat people they disagree with because I have been a target myself<\/em>, and I\u2019m a fellow Christian (but they deny that I am one). Hays has described me as \u201cof an evil character.\u201d So I get that.<\/span><\/p>\n

But that is not all\u00a0<\/em>Christians, and I<\/em>\u00a0did not treat Loftus in this atrocious, unethical fashion. I simply critiqued his ideas (because I think erroneous ideas are the primary cause of atheism, not necessarily wickedness and rebellion). But that was enough for him to act as atheists so often do, and go spastic and call me an \u201cidiot\u201d: and all the rest.\u00a0Anyone can read my critique of his story. [part one<\/a> \/ part two<\/a>]<\/span><\/p>\n

He could dish it out<\/em> but he couldn\u2019t take<\/em> it. It\u2019s really as simple as that. He wants to have a public website with that name, and run down Christianity and Christians day and night, but don\u2019t let us dare to utter a critique of his story of apostasy! I guess only truly stupid Christians are allowed to show up and comment on that site; so they can fit the stereotype that Loftus desires to promulgate.<\/span><\/p>\n

I think when you see poor behavior you should look at causes, maybe look in the mirror a bit. It\u2019s easy to just point a finger, but if you\u2019re really interested in improving things it\u2019s worth asking what you might be doing that contributes.<\/span><\/p>\n

I half agree with you and half disagree. If you want to encourage listening in a friendship context, I\u2019m all for that. If you want to say atheists should be treated charitably, I\u2019ve always said that and try to model it as best I can. And I think you know that, having met me at least half a dozen times now.<\/span><\/p>\n

If you say, on the other hand, that we can\u2019t defend our beliefs against frontal attacks or critique the ideas in deconversion stories, I must respectfully disagree. But we do have to do that without attacking people<\/em>. I sought to do so with Loftus, as I do with everyone, but I\u2019m sure I didn\u2019t do it perfectly<\/em>, either. Mea maxima culpa<\/em> . . .<\/span><\/p>\n

\u00a0<\/p>\n<\/body><\/html>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

Photograph by Danny Birchall [Flickr \/ CC By 2.0 license] Jon Curry is an atheist I actually know in person and consider a friend. I\u2019ve invited him twice to my house, to do presentations. His son and my daughter attend a group homeschooling place together, and we know his wife, too, from that school. He […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2331,"featured_media":3279,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[124],"tags":[645,646,648,647],"class_list":["post-3278","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-atheism-agnosticism","tag-atheist-deconversion-stories","tag-atheist-former-christians","tag-debunking-christianity","tag-john-loftus"],"yoast_head":"\nOn My Reason for Critiquing Atheist "Deconversion" Stories<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"As an apologist, I have to defend Christianity by critiquing reasons given to reject Christianity (deconversion stories), if those reasons are inadequate.\" \/>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<link rel=\"canonical\" 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Chesterton\\\" (Saint Benedict Press \/ TAN Books: 2009). \\\"100 Biblical Arguments Against Sola Scriptura\\\" was published by Catholic Answers in May 2012. His \\\"Quotable Wesley\\\" compilation was published by (Protestant \/ Wesleyan publisher) Beacon Hill Press in April 2014. Several of his 49 books are bestsellers in their field. Dave maintains a popular personal Facebook page, a Facebook author page, and has a Twitter account as well. He offers almost all of his books in e-book form on his own Biblical Catholicism site (http:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/), at a permanent deep discount: only $2.99 for ePub, mobi, and AZW, and $1.99 for PDF. His writing has been enthusiastically endorsed or recommended by many leading Catholic apologists, authors, and priests, including Dr. Scott Hahn, Fr. Peter M. J. Stravinskas, Marcus Grodi, Patrick Madrid, Steve Ray, Tim Staples, Devin Rose, Mike Aquilina, Al Kresta, Karl Keating, Fr. 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Formerly a campus missionary, as a Protestant, Dave was received into the Catholic Church in February 1991, by the late, well-known catechist and theologian, Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave\u2019s articles have appeared in many influential Catholic periodicals, including \"This Rock\" (now called \"Catholic Answers Magazine\"), \"Envoy Magazine\" (Patrick Madrid), \"The Catholic Answer,\" \"The Coming Home Journal,\" \"Gilbert Magazine\" (American Chesterton Society), and \"The Latin Mass.\" He also writes a featured column for every issue of \"The Michigan Catholic\": published by the archdiocese of Detroit, and was editor for most of the apologetics tracts published by the St. Paul Street Evangelization apostolate. Dave\u2019s apologetics and writing apostolate was the subject of a feature article in the May 2002 issue of \"Envoy Magazine.\" He served as the staff moderator at the Internet discussion forum for The Coming Home Network, from 2007-2010. Dave has been interviewed on many nationally syndicated Catholic radio shows, including \"Catholic Answers Live\" (twice), \"Faith and Family Live\" (Steve Wood), \"Kresta in the Afternoon,\" \"Son Rise Morning Show,\" \"Catholic Connection\" (Teresa Tomeo), and \"The Catholics Next Door.\" His large and popular website, \"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism,\" was online from March 1997 to March 2007, and received the 1998 Catholic Website of the Year award from \"Envoy Magazine.\" His blog of the same name (now transferred to Patheos), begun in February 2004, contains more than 1,500 papers, at least 500 debates or dialogues, and over 50 distinct \"index\" web pages. Unsolicited correspondence has indicated many hundreds of conversions (or returns) to the Catholic faith as a result, by God's grace, of these writings. Dave's conversion story was published in the bestselling book \"Surprised by Truth\" (edited by Patrick Madrid; San Diego: Basilica Press, 1994). Sophia Institute Press has published six of his books: \"A Biblical Defense of Catholicism\" (Foreword by Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J., 1996 \/ 2003), \"The Catholic Verses\" (2004), \"The One-Minute Apologist\" (2007), \"Bible Proofs for Catholic Truths\" (2009), \"The Quotable Newman\" (editor: 2012), and \"Proving the Catholic Faith is Biblical\" (2015). He is co-author (with Dr. Paul Thigpen) of the inserts for \"The New Catholic Answer Bible\" (Our Sunday Visitor: 2005), and editor for \"The Wisdom of Mr. Chesterton: The Very Best Quotes, Quips, and Cracks from the Pen of G. K. Chesterton\" (Saint Benedict Press \/ TAN Books: 2009). \"100 Biblical Arguments Against Sola Scriptura\" was published by Catholic Answers in May 2012. His \"Quotable Wesley\" compilation was published by (Protestant \/ Wesleyan publisher) Beacon Hill Press in April 2014. Several of his 49 books are bestsellers in their field. Dave maintains a popular personal Facebook page, a Facebook author page, and has a Twitter account as well. He offers almost all of his books in e-book form on his own Biblical Catholicism site (http:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/), at a permanent deep discount: only $2.99 for ePub, mobi, and AZW, and $1.99 for PDF. His writing has been enthusiastically endorsed or recommended by many leading Catholic apologists, authors, and priests, including Dr. Scott Hahn, Fr. Peter M. J. Stravinskas, Marcus Grodi, Patrick Madrid, Steve Ray, Tim Staples, Devin Rose, Mike Aquilina, Al Kresta, Karl Keating, Fr. Dwight Longenecker, Brandon Vogt, Marcellino D'Ambrosio, and Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave has been happily married to his wife Judy since October 1984. They have three sons and a daughter, and reside in southeast Michigan (metro Detroit).","sameAs":["https:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/","https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/dave.armstrong.798","https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/@LuxVeritatisApologetics"],"url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/author\/davearmstrong"}]}},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/3278","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/2331"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=3278"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/3278\/revisions"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/3279"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=3278"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=3278"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=3278"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}