{"id":33266,"date":"2019-05-23T12:01:25","date_gmt":"2019-05-23T16:01:25","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/admin.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/?p=33266"},"modified":"2019-05-23T12:01:41","modified_gmt":"2019-05-23T16:01:41","slug":"gop-pro-life-supreme-court-justices-revisiting-the-facts","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2019\/05\/gop-pro-life-supreme-court-justices-revisiting-the-facts.html","title":{"rendered":"GOP & Pro-Life Supreme Court Justices: Revisiting the Facts"},"content":{"rendered":"\n<\/head>

\"\"<\/p>\n

[I was replying to a Catholic leftish Never Trumper, a month before the 2016 presidential election]<\/p>\n

\n

The problem with your analysis of the Supreme Court is that it doesn\u2019t continue into recent history.<\/p>\n

The last Democrat-appointed pro-life Justice is Byron White (JFK, 1962). For Republicans it\u2019s a mixed record, but at least it is that. Here are the appointments under Republican Presidents since Reagan and how they turned out on the life issue:<\/p>\n

O\u2019Connor (Reagan) = mixed record
\nScalia (Reagan) = pro-life
\nKennedy (Reagan; replacement for Robert Bork, who was borked) = mixed record<\/p>\n

Souter (H. W. Bush) = pro-abort
\nThomas (H. W. Bush) = pro-life<\/p>\n

Roberts (W. Bush) = pro-life
\nAlito (W. Bush) = pro-life<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

So the tally is:<\/p>\n

Pro-life: 4
\nMixed record: 2
\nPro-aborts: 1<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

That\u2019s pretty good, if you ask me. This is the only way we have limited Roe at all. Kennedy joined in the partial-birth abortion ban ruling, for a 5-4 decision.<\/p>\n

By contrast, the last pro-life Justice appointed by a Democrat was Byron White (1962), who retired in 1993.<\/p>\n

And you want to argue that there is no difference between the parties in this respect?<\/p>\n

I think we see why you didn\u2019t go into detail about recent appointments by the GOP. Most analyses of this sort don\u2019t . . . You\u2019re stuck back in 1973. Those appointees were from Nixon and Eisenhower, who were not conservatives, but moderates. Ford also put in another pro-abort because he was a moderate, too. You talk about Sandra Day O\u2019Connor, but neglect to mention Reagan\u2019s other two appointees: Scalia and Bork.<\/p>\n

You say it is a \u201cterrible bet to make\u201d (to believe that Trump will appoint pro-life Justices, or that among other things). He has provided a list of judges, and rock-solid conservative groups have widely hailed his choices. That\u2019s about as good as it gets. There\u2019s no absolute guarantee that a person won\u2019t become more liberal over time (just like \u2014 ahem \u2014 you did). It happens. People are free agents.<\/p>\n

You say, \u201cthere is no historical precedent for the party nominating a justice getting what they want from that justice.\u201d<\/p>\n

Really? I don\u2019t know what alternative universe this comes from. The Democrats have gotten 100% pro-abortion rulings from their appointees since Byron White retired in 1993.<\/p>\n

And our record isn\u2019t that bad, either. Reagan would have been 2 for 3 had Bork not been viciously savaged and eliminated by the liberals, led by a sanctimonious and idiotic Joe Biden in the Senate committee.\u00a0Older Bush had a 50% record (sadly, he followed the advice of John Sununu, who recommended Souter).\u00a0Younger Bush had a 100% pro-life record in appointments.<\/p>\n

It\u2019s not rocket science at this juncture to know the better choice, in terms of the Court and the election. With Hillary we get a radical pro-abort, with hardly any doubt. It\u2019s more likely that the Second Coming will occur in the next four years than that Hillary\u2019s appointment will be pro-life.<\/p>\n

With Trump, the record since Reagan shows that the chances of obtaining a pro-life Justice is 57% (4 out of 7); but really it is 71% (5 out of 7) because Reagan\u2019s actual third choice was Robert Bork, who would have certainly been pro-life (he also converted to Catholicism after that time). And it\u2019s actually higher, because O\u2019Connor and Kennedy did make some pro-life decisions before they became more more liberal.<\/p>\n

71+% chance vs. virtually 0%. This is not<\/em> a difficult choice. If one regards pro-life as the<\/em><\/strong> most important issue, as I do, it\u2019s clear and obvious.<\/p>\n

But you don\u2019t seem to be able to get over this foolish puritanism of thinking that a President must<\/strong><\/em> be some kind of saintly character. If JFK, Nixon and Bill Clinton didn\u2019t disabuse anyone of that notion (not to mention Hillary herself!), nothing will. We\u2019re not voting for canonization, but for the presidency.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n

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We don\u2019t agree with every jot and tittle of the people we vote for, and this is understood. The example I always use is the abortion\u00a0exception clauses for rape and incest. These were favored by both Bushes, possibly Reagan (not sure), McCain, Romney, Trump, and probably Dole as well.<\/p>\n

Those abortions are no different than any other abortions, which is why I am against them. But I voted for all those people because they were far more<\/em> pro-life than the opponent. And of course the Church allows this. It\u2019s not situation ethics or utilitarianism.<\/p>\n

Nor do I see how voting for Trump descends to utilitarianism or some sort of dubious ethics. It\u2019s simply the nature of human nature and the political enterprise. I\u2019m not a utilitarian; never have been. I don\u2019t agree with everything Trump stands for, just as I have had disagreements with virtually all other presidential candidates that I voted for.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n

<\/div>\n
\n

Again, you seem unduly burdened with this expectation that presidential candidates must either be 1) saints, or 2) completely in line with Catholic social teaching at all points. Neither common sense nor Church guidelines about voting require this.<\/p>\n

You and many on your political side continually argue that there is little difference between the two parties with regard to Justices and the pro-life issue. I showed that this was demonstrably untrue, based on the historical record for both parties. The Dems get 100% pro-abortion from their appointees. The GOP since Reagan has had a pretty good record, despite defections from Souter, and (partially) from O\u2019Connor and Kennedy.<\/p>\n

I think Trump is quite good enough to vote for outright. I don\u2019t think he\u2019s perfect. One votes for the person that they think is the best choice of the two. We don\u2019t agree with everything, by the nature of democracy. Most of us have to \u201csettle.\u201d\u00a0As I noted in one of my posts, the Catholic Left does this all the time. They say they are pro-life, yet consistently vote for the pro-abort candidate or go third party and enable the liberal to win. But if they vote for a pro-abort, they have to rationalize in a number of ways about how their stance will magically lead to less abortions than the pro-life candidate.<\/p>\n

If they are honest at least about the policy positions presented, they have to acknowledge, it seems to me, that they are voting for a radically flawed candidate, but that, nonetheless, a better outcome for the pro-life cause will result, than with the contrary vote.\u00a0That\u2019s far more consequentialist than anything we\u2019re doing.<\/p>\n

I don\u2019t even think this is a question of \u201cprobabilities.\u201d It\u2019s common sense and moral sanity. We know<\/em> what Hillary will do, by every indication of her stated views. So we oppose that, and Trump is the man opposing her, and our alternate choice.<\/p>\n

Your argument was that the history of Court appointments shows no likelihood one way or the other. You were making a generalized argument from the past, extrapolated onto the present; not specifically about what Trump would likely do. I proved (to my mind) that this is simply not the case.<\/p>\n

Related Reading:<\/span><\/strong><\/p>\n

Christians Voting for Pro-Aborts?!?!<\/a>\u00a0[4-4-04]<\/div>\n
*<\/div>\n
Ten Reasons Why Pro-Lifers Vote for Pro-Aborts<\/a>\u00a0[10-29-08]<\/div>\n
*<\/div>\n
Reply to Democrats for Life<\/a>\u00a0[5-1-12]<\/div>\n

*<\/p>\n

Abortion as a Deal-Breaker and Ethical Voting<\/a>\u00a0[9-10-08 and 2-22-14]<\/p>\n

\u201cPro-Lifers\u201d Vote for Childkillers? Huh?! (Reductio ad Absurdum<\/em>)<\/a>\u00a0[3-3-16]<\/p>\n

\u201cHow Can a Catholic Vote for Trump?!!?\u201d<\/a>\u00a0[5-28-16]<\/p>\n

On Trump & the \u201cSupreme\u201d Pro-Life Cause<\/a>\u00a0[8-16-16]<\/div>\n
*<\/div>\n
Dialogue with Deacon Steven Greydanus on Voting & Pro-Life<\/a>\u00a0[11-8-16]<\/div>\n

*<\/p>\n

\u201cTrump Ain\u2019t Really Pro-Life\u201d<\/a>\u00a0[1-24-17]<\/p>\n

\u201cLessen Evil\u201d Votes for Hillary?<\/a>\u00a0[note: Mark Shea did\u00a0not<\/em>\u00a0vote for Hillary, but he urged people in swing states to do so]\u00a0(vs. Mark Shea) [4-7-17]<\/p>\n

Debate: Do Liberal Social Policies Lessen Abortion & Poverty?<\/a>\u00a0[4-12-17]<\/p>\n

Debate: How Pro-Life is the Republican Party (Especially the Leadership)?\u00a0<\/a>[5-8-17]<\/p>\n

Simcha Fisher\u2019s \u201cNew\u201d Pro-Life Critique of \u201cOld\u201d Pro-Lifers\u00a0<\/a>[Simcha\u00a0did<\/em>\u00a0vote for Hillary Clinton] (+ vigorous\u00a0Facebook discussion<\/a>) [8-2-17]<\/p>\n

\u201cNew\u201d vs. \u201cOld\u201d Pro-Life Strategies<\/a>\u00a0(vs. John Cavanaugh-O\u2019Keefe) [8-31-17]<\/p>\n

On Being a So-Called \u201cSingle-Issue\u201d Pro-Lifer\u00a0<\/a>[National Catholic Register<\/em>, 1-25-18]<\/p>\n

Do Democratic Presidents Cause Fewer Abortions to Occur?<\/a>\u00a0[National Catholic Register<\/em>, 2-28-18]<\/p>\n

Premature New-Pro-Life \u201cNya Nya\u2019s\u201d Re Kavanaugh<\/a>\u00a0[12-10-18]<\/p>\n

Debate: SCOTUS & GOP in Relation to Abortion Rates<\/a>\u00a0[11-15-18]<\/p>\n

Dialogue on Conservative vs. Liberal Pro-Life Voting<\/a>\u00a0[2-9-19]<\/p>\n

Explaining the Pro-Life, Christian Vote for Trump Yet Again<\/a>\u00a0[4-30-19]<\/p>\n

Dialogue: Christian Witness, Trump, & Prudential Voting\u00a0<\/a>(vs. Deacon Steven D. Greydanus) [5-10-19]<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n

***<\/p>\n

(originally 10-11-16 on Facebook)<\/p>\n

Photo credit:<\/strong>\u00a0The Roberts Court, November 30, 2018. Seated, from left to right: Justices Stephen G. Breyer and Clarence Thomas, Chief Justice John G. Roberts, Jr., and Justices Ruth Bader Ginsburg and Samuel A. Alito. Standing, from left to right: Justices Neil M. Gorsuch, Sonia Sotomayor, Elena Kagan, and Brett M. Kavanaugh. Photograph by Fred Schilling, Supreme Court Curator\u2019s Office.<\/span> [public domain \/ Wikimedia Commons<\/a>]<\/p>\n

**<\/p>\n<\/body><\/html>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

[I was replying to a Catholic leftish Never Trumper, a month before the 2016 presidential election] The problem with your analysis of the Supreme Court is that it doesn\u2019t continue into recent history. The last Democrat-appointed pro-life Justice is Byron White (JFK, 1962). For Republicans it\u2019s a mixed record, but at least it is that. […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2331,"featured_media":33275,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[81],"tags":[2768,84,3184,2896,88,6975,1826,2092,8711,2424,756,8723,3453,1254,1255,2088,747,746,8720,3182,8717,8714,3183,2897,3181,2091],"class_list":["post-33266","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-life-issues","tag-2016-presidential-campaign","tag-abortion","tag-abortion-restrictions","tag-catholics-trump","tag-childkilling","tag-democrat-pro-lifers","tag-donald-trump","tag-fetal-development","tag-gop-pro-life-justices","tag-hillary-clinton","tag-infanticide","tag-leftist-pro-lifers","tag-new-pro-life-movement","tag-personhood","tag-preborn-child","tag-pro-abortion","tag-pro-choice","tag-pro-life","tag-pro-life-third-parties","tag-pro-lifers-elections","tag-republican-appointed-supreme-court-justices","tag-scotus-abortion","tag-supreme-court","tag-supreme-court-abortion","tag-trump-pro-life","tag-unborn-child"],"yoast_head":"\nGOP & Pro-Life Supreme Court Justices: Revisiting the Facts<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"The Democrats have gotten 100% pro-abortion rulings from their Supreme Court appointees since Byron White retired in 1993. 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Unsolicited correspondence has indicated many hundreds of conversions (or returns) to the Catholic faith as a result, by God's grace, of these writings. Dave's conversion story was published in the bestselling book \\\"Surprised by Truth\\\" (edited by Patrick Madrid; San Diego: Basilica Press, 1994). Sophia Institute Press has published six of his books: \\\"A Biblical Defense of Catholicism\\\" (Foreword by Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J., 1996 \/ 2003), \\\"The Catholic Verses\\\" (2004), \\\"The One-Minute Apologist\\\" (2007), \\\"Bible Proofs for Catholic Truths\\\" (2009), \\\"The Quotable Newman\\\" (editor: 2012), and \\\"Proving the Catholic Faith is Biblical\\\" (2015). He is co-author (with Dr. Paul Thigpen) of the inserts for \\\"The New Catholic Answer Bible\\\" (Our Sunday Visitor: 2005), and editor for \\\"The Wisdom of Mr. Chesterton: The Very Best Quotes, Quips, and Cracks from the Pen of G. K. Chesterton\\\" (Saint Benedict Press \/ TAN Books: 2009). \\\"100 Biblical Arguments Against Sola Scriptura\\\" was published by Catholic Answers in May 2012. His \\\"Quotable Wesley\\\" compilation was published by (Protestant \/ Wesleyan publisher) Beacon Hill Press in April 2014. Several of his 49 books are bestsellers in their field. Dave maintains a popular personal Facebook page, a Facebook author page, and has a Twitter account as well. He offers almost all of his books in e-book form on his own Biblical Catholicism site (http:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/), at a permanent deep discount: only $2.99 for ePub, mobi, and AZW, and $1.99 for PDF. His writing has been enthusiastically endorsed or recommended by many leading Catholic apologists, authors, and priests, including Dr. Scott Hahn, Fr. Peter M. J. Stravinskas, Marcus Grodi, Patrick Madrid, Steve Ray, Tim Staples, Devin Rose, Mike Aquilina, Al Kresta, Karl Keating, Fr. Dwight Longenecker, Brandon Vogt, Marcellino D'Ambrosio, and Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave has been happily married to his wife Judy since October 1984. They have three sons and a daughter, and reside in southeast Michigan (metro Detroit).\",\"sameAs\":[\"https:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/\",\"https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/dave.armstrong.798\",\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/@LuxVeritatisApologetics\"],\"url\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/author\/davearmstrong\"}]}<\/script>\n<!-- \/ Yoast SEO plugin. -->","yoast_head_json":{"title":"GOP & Pro-Life Supreme Court Justices: Revisiting the Facts","description":"The Democrats have gotten 100% pro-abortion rulings from their Supreme Court appointees since Byron White retired in 1993. 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The GOP record is FAR better than that.","breadcrumb":{"@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2019\/05\/gop-pro-life-supreme-court-justices-revisiting-the-facts.html#breadcrumb"},"inLanguage":"en-US","potentialAction":[{"@type":"ReadAction","target":["https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2019\/05\/gop-pro-life-supreme-court-justices-revisiting-the-facts.html"]}]},{"@type":"BreadcrumbList","@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2019\/05\/gop-pro-life-supreme-court-justices-revisiting-the-facts.html#breadcrumb","itemListElement":[{"@type":"ListItem","position":1,"name":"Home","item":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong"},{"@type":"ListItem","position":2,"name":"GOP & Pro-Life Supreme Court Justices: Revisiting the Facts"}]},{"@type":"WebSite","@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/#website","url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/","name":"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism","description":"Catholic biblical apologetics","potentialAction":[{"@type":"SearchAction","target":{"@type":"EntryPoint","urlTemplate":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/?s={search_term_string}"},"query-input":"required name=search_term_string"}],"inLanguage":"en-US"},{"@type":"Person","@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/#\/schema\/person\/471eaa20e441eca4bb1ea50393cf632e","name":"Dave Armstrong","image":{"@type":"ImageObject","inLanguage":"en-US","@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/#\/schema\/person\/image\/","url":"https:\/\/secure.gravatar.com\/avatar\/820e6db89734ae7a9e5dac8d498f5ac7?s=96&d=mm&r=g","contentUrl":"https:\/\/secure.gravatar.com\/avatar\/820e6db89734ae7a9e5dac8d498f5ac7?s=96&d=mm&r=g","caption":"Dave Armstrong"},"description":"Dave Armstrong is a Catholic author and apologist, who has been actively proclaiming and defending Christianity since 1981, and Catholicism in particular since 1991 (full-time since December 2001). Formerly a campus missionary, as a Protestant, Dave was received into the Catholic Church in February 1991, by the late, well-known catechist and theologian, Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave\u2019s articles have appeared in many influential Catholic periodicals, including \"This Rock\" (now called \"Catholic Answers Magazine\"), \"Envoy Magazine\" (Patrick Madrid), \"The Catholic Answer,\" \"The Coming Home Journal,\" \"Gilbert Magazine\" (American Chesterton Society), and \"The Latin Mass.\" He also writes a featured column for every issue of \"The Michigan Catholic\": published by the archdiocese of Detroit, and was editor for most of the apologetics tracts published by the St. Paul Street Evangelization apostolate. Dave\u2019s apologetics and writing apostolate was the subject of a feature article in the May 2002 issue of \"Envoy Magazine.\" He served as the staff moderator at the Internet discussion forum for The Coming Home Network, from 2007-2010. Dave has been interviewed on many nationally syndicated Catholic radio shows, including \"Catholic Answers Live\" (twice), \"Faith and Family Live\" (Steve Wood), \"Kresta in the Afternoon,\" \"Son Rise Morning Show,\" \"Catholic Connection\" (Teresa Tomeo), and \"The Catholics Next Door.\" His large and popular website, \"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism,\" was online from March 1997 to March 2007, and received the 1998 Catholic Website of the Year award from \"Envoy Magazine.\" His blog of the same name (now transferred to Patheos), begun in February 2004, contains more than 1,500 papers, at least 500 debates or dialogues, and over 50 distinct \"index\" web pages. Unsolicited correspondence has indicated many hundreds of conversions (or returns) to the Catholic faith as a result, by God's grace, of these writings. Dave's conversion story was published in the bestselling book \"Surprised by Truth\" (edited by Patrick Madrid; San Diego: Basilica Press, 1994). Sophia Institute Press has published six of his books: \"A Biblical Defense of Catholicism\" (Foreword by Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J., 1996 \/ 2003), \"The Catholic Verses\" (2004), \"The One-Minute Apologist\" (2007), \"Bible Proofs for Catholic Truths\" (2009), \"The Quotable Newman\" (editor: 2012), and \"Proving the Catholic Faith is Biblical\" (2015). He is co-author (with Dr. Paul Thigpen) of the inserts for \"The New Catholic Answer Bible\" (Our Sunday Visitor: 2005), and editor for \"The Wisdom of Mr. Chesterton: The Very Best Quotes, Quips, and Cracks from the Pen of G. K. Chesterton\" (Saint Benedict Press \/ TAN Books: 2009). \"100 Biblical Arguments Against Sola Scriptura\" was published by Catholic Answers in May 2012. His \"Quotable Wesley\" compilation was published by (Protestant \/ Wesleyan publisher) Beacon Hill Press in April 2014. Several of his 49 books are bestsellers in their field. Dave maintains a popular personal Facebook page, a Facebook author page, and has a Twitter account as well. He offers almost all of his books in e-book form on his own Biblical Catholicism site (http:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/), at a permanent deep discount: only $2.99 for ePub, mobi, and AZW, and $1.99 for PDF. His writing has been enthusiastically endorsed or recommended by many leading Catholic apologists, authors, and priests, including Dr. Scott Hahn, Fr. Peter M. J. Stravinskas, Marcus Grodi, Patrick Madrid, Steve Ray, Tim Staples, Devin Rose, Mike Aquilina, Al Kresta, Karl Keating, Fr. Dwight Longenecker, Brandon Vogt, Marcellino D'Ambrosio, and Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave has been happily married to his wife Judy since October 1984. They have three sons and a daughter, and reside in southeast Michigan (metro Detroit).","sameAs":["https:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/","https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/dave.armstrong.798","https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/@LuxVeritatisApologetics"],"url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/author\/davearmstrong"}]}},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/33266","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/2331"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=33266"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/33266\/revisions"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/33275"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=33266"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=33266"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=33266"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}