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This is an installment of my series of replies to an article by Dr. David Madison<\/a>:\u00a0a pastor in the Methodist Church for nine years, who has a PhD in Biblical Studies from Boston University. It\u2019s called,\u00a0\u201cThings We Wish Jesus Hadn\u2019t Said\u201d<\/a>\u00a0(Debunking Christianity<\/em>, 7-21-19). His words will be in\u00a0blue\u00a0<\/span>below. Dr. Madison makes several \u201cgeneric\u201d digs at Jesus and Christianity, in the written portion (it details a series of 12 podcasts):<\/p>\n A challenge for Christians: If you\u2019re so sure Jesus existed, then you have some explaining to do. A major frustration is that, while believers are indignant at all the talk about Jesus not existing, they don\u2019t know the issues that fuel the skepticism\u2014and are unwilling to inform themselves.<\/span><\/p>\n Yes, I\u2019m up to the \u201cchallenge.\u201d No problem at all. I\u2019m not threatened or \u201cscared\u201d by this in the slightest. It\u2019s what I do, as an apologist. The question is whether\u00a0Dr. Madison<\/em>\u00a0is up to interacting with\u00a0counter-critiques<\/em>? Or will he act like the voluminous anti-theist atheist polemicist Bob Seidensticker?: who directly challenged me in one of his own comboxes to respond to his innumerable attack-pieces against Christianity and the Bible, and then courageously proceeded to\u00a0utterly ignore<\/em>\u00a0my 35 specific critiques<\/a>\u00a0of his claims as of this writing. We shall soon see which course Dr. Madison will decide to take. Anyway, he also states in his post and combox:<\/p>\n [S]o many of the words of Jesus are genuinely shocking. These words aren\u2019t proclaimed much from the pulpit, . . . Hence the folks in the pews have absorbed and adored an idealized Jesus. Christian apologists make their livings refiguring so many of the things Jesus supposedly said.<\/span><\/p>\n The gospels are riddled with contradictions and bad theology, and Jesus is so frequently depicted as a cult fanatic\u2014because cult fanatics wrote the gospels. We see Jesus only through their theological filters. I just want to grab hold of Christian heads (standing behind them, with a hand on each ear) and force them to look straight ahead, unflinchingly, at the gospels, and then ask \u201cTell me what you see!\u201d uncoached by apologist specialists, i.e., priests and pastors, who\u2019ve had a lot of practice making bad texts look good. . . .\u00a0I DO say, \u201cDeal with the really bad stuff in the gospels.\u201d Are you SURE you\u2019ve not make a big mistake endorsing this particular Lord and Savior? That\u2019s the whole point of this series of Flash Podcasts, because a helluva lot of Christians would agree, right away, that these quotes are bad news\u2014if no one told then that they\u2019ve been attributed to Jesus.<\/span><\/p>\n Of course, Dr. Madison \u2014 good anti-theist atheist that he is \u2014 takes the view that we are not at all\u00a0sure<\/em>\u00a0whether Jesus in fact said\u00a0anything<\/em>\u00a0recorded in the Gospels in the first place. I don\u2019t play that game, because there is no end to it. It\u2019s like trying to pin jello to the wall. The atheist always has their convenient out (when refuted in argument about some biblical text) that Jesus never said it\u00a0anyway<\/em>\u00a0[wink wink and sly patronizing grin], and\/or that the biblical text in question was simply added later by dishonest ultra-biased Christian partisans and propagandists. It\u2019s a silly and ultimately intellectually dishonest game, and so I always refuse to play it with atheists or anyone else, because there is no way to \u201cwin\u201d with such an absurdly stacked, purely subjective deck.<\/p>\n In my defense of biblical texts, I start with the assumption that the manuscripts we have are quite sufficient for us to know what is in the Bible (believe it or not). Going on from there, I simply defend particular [supposedly \u201cdifficult\u201d] texts, and note with appropriate argumentation, that \u201chere, the Bible teaches so-and-so,\u201d etc. I deal with the texts\u00a0as they exist<\/em>. I don\u2019t get into the endlessly arbitrary, subjective games that atheists and theologically liberal biblical skeptics play with the texts, in their self-serving textual criticism.<\/p>\n Dr. Madison himself (fortunately) grants my outlook in terms of\u00a0practical<\/em>\u00a0\u201cx vs. y\u201d debate purposes:\u00a0\u201cFor the sake of argument, I\u2019m willing to say, okay, Jesus was real and, yes, we have gospels that tell the story.\u201d\u00a0<\/span>And in the combox:\u00a0\u201cSo, we can go along with their insistence that he did exist. We\u2019ll play on their field, i.e., the gospels.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n Good! So we shall examine his cherry-picked texts and see whether his interpretations of them can stand up to scrutiny. He is issuing challenges, and I as an apologist will be dishing a bunch of my own right back to him. Two can play this game. I will be dealing honestly with his challenges. Will he\u00a0return<\/em>\u00a0the favor, and engage in serious and substantive dialogue? Again, we\u2019ll soon know what his reaction will be. A true dialogue is of a confident, inquisitive, \u201cnothing to fear and everything to gain\u201d\u00a0back-and-forth<\/em>\u00a0and\u00a0interactive<\/em>\u00a0nature, not merely \u201cships passing in the night\u201d or what I call \u201cmutual monologue.\u201d<\/p>\n *****<\/p>\n Dr. Madison\u2019s third podcast<\/a> is entitled, \u201cOn Matthew 24:37-39, on Jesus\u2019 prediction of suffering\u2014as at the time of Noah\u2014when the Son of Man comes.\u201d<\/span> Here is the text:<\/span><\/p>\n Matthew 24:37-39<\/strong> (RSV)\u00a0As were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of man.\u00a0[38] For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark,\u00a0[39] and they did not know until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of man.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n Eating and drinking, marrying, and giving in marriage, are all that bad?<\/span><\/p>\n Of course they\u2019re not bad at all. Dr. Madison completely misses the point. No one is judged for doing those<\/em> things. Jesus is simply saying that people were going about their daily business and doing all the usual things of life, not expecting judgment, and yet all of a sudden it swept upon them. Hence, Barnes\u2019 Notes on the Bible<\/em><\/a>:<\/p>\n The things mentioned here denote attention to the affairs of this life rather than to what was coming on them. It does not mean that these things were wrong, but only that such was their actual employment, and that they were regardless of what was coming upon them.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n And, Expositor\u2019s Greek Testament<\/em><\/a>:\u00a0\u201cThe idea rather seems to be that all things went on as usual, as if nothing were going to happen.\u2019<\/p>\n Jesus may have had the somewhat sarcastic and cynical Ecclesiastes 8:15<\/strong> in mind:<\/p>\n And I commend enjoyment, for man has no good thing under the sun but to eat and drink, and enjoy himself, for this will go with him in his toil through the days of life which God gives him under the sun.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n The notion of the Second Coming being sudden and unexpected is repeatedly reinforced in context:<\/p>\n Matthew 24:36<\/strong> . . . of that day and hour no one knows . . .<\/p>\n Matthew 24:42<\/strong>\u00a0Watch therefore, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming.<\/p>\n Matthew 24:44<\/strong>\u00a0Therefore you also must be ready; for the Son of man is coming at an hour you do not expect.<\/p>\n Matthew 24:50<\/strong>\u00a0\u00a0the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know,<\/p><\/blockquote>\n The Bible never teaches that eating and drinking and marrying per se are bad. Its ridiculous to believe otherwise, and to think these words imply the contrary. They do not<\/em>.<\/p>\n This is comic book religion. A hero flying from the sky, to make everything better? Really? . . . But this is silly theology. It\u2019s bad theology.<\/span><\/p>\n Why would the very notion<\/em> of a Second Coming, where the wicked are judged and the righteous rewarded be either \u201ccomic book\u201d<\/span> or \u201csilly\u201d<\/span> or \u201cbad\u201d<\/span>? Atheists always say they want God to appear and make things right (since they seem to blame Him for anything bad in the world). Dr. Madison complains in the podcast that God should have done this before now and mocks him ads a \u201cprocrastinator.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n It\u2019s rather inconsistent and unfair to state on the one hand that God ought<\/em> to have tangibly appeared in the past, and then turn around and say that if indeed God appears in the future<\/em>, that it is, on the other hand,\u00a0\u201ccomic book\u201d<\/span> or \u201csilly\u201d<\/span> or \u201cbad\u201d. If it was right thing to do in the past, likewise, it is in the future. He can\u2019t have it both ways. His beef is simply with God\u2019s timing<\/em>.<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n This thoroughly undermines the concept of the good Jesus, doesn\u2019t it? In Matthew, Jesus has promised that most of the human race will be killed off when he arrives.\u00a0<\/span>He compares it to the time of Noah. Noah is the story of genocide.<\/span><\/p>\n What Dr. Madison calls \u201cgenocide\u201d Christians call judgment. God is the judge of the world and will judge every human being, based on what they have believed and done. If \u2014 again \u2014 the very notion of righteous judgment and justice is such a terrible thing, then why doesn\u2019t Dr. Madison endorse anarchy? For, after all, we have human judges and laws, which, if broken, cause penalties to be given to human beings. If one human being can do that to another, and we proclaim it \u201cjust\u201d and \u201cgood\u201d why is it so incomprehensible that God, the Creator of all men, would judge them? It\u2019s not.<\/p>\n This is what Jesus will do? Have everyone but the folks in the Jesus cult be killed off?<\/span><\/p>\n But that\u2019s not what He said<\/em>. He didn\u2019t say, \u201cAs were the days of Noah, everyone but eight people will be killed [or damned].\u201d This is a figment of Dr. Madison\u2019s imagination. Jesus wasn\u2019t comparing the extent<\/em> of judgment, but rather, the unexpected<\/em>\u00a0suddenness<\/em> of it in both cases. This is quite clear in context, as I showed above. Jesus said, \u201cAs were the days of Noah, so will be the coming<\/em> of the Son of man\u201d: as opposed to \u201cso will be the judgment<\/em> of the Son of man.\u201d<\/p>\n In the next chapter we have the great scene of the separation of the sheep and goats at the last judgment (Matthew 25:31-46). Jesus never says that the sheep are just eight people out of the entire earth (or any similar such small number). No indication in this text is given of relative numbers of the saved and the damned. In two of His parables nearby, however, He does<\/em> give indication. And it is assuredly not<\/em> as Dr. Madison foolishly asserts.<\/p>\n In the parable of the ten maidens with lamps (Matthew 25:1-13), five were foolish and were damned (\u201cthe door was shut . . . I do not know you\u201d: 25:10, 12) and five were wise and received eternal life (\u201cwent in with him to the marriage feast\u201d: 25:10). That\u2019s hardly a 99.99999999% damned scenario, is it? It\u2019s a 50-50 proposition.<\/p>\n The parable of the talents follows (25:14-30). Here, there are three servants, who are given five talents, two talents, and one talent [a form of money], respectively. The ones who are saved are the first two (\u201center into the joy of your master\u201d: 25:21, 23), while the servant with one talent, who did nothing with it, was damned (\u201ccast the worthless servant into the outer darkness\u201d: 25:30).<\/p>\n So this parable suggests a 67% rate of final salvation and a 33% rate of damnation. That\u2019s even further away from\u00a0a 99.99999999% damned scenario. Thus, the very thing that Dr. Madison brings to the table in an effort to condemn Jesus as a cruel taskmaster, wanting to send virtually everyone to hell, blows up in his face. Could he not read the next chapter, to see the fuller context? Would that have put him out?<\/p>\n Both Paul and Jesus were wrong. They were dead wrong. These predictions were not fulfilled. . . . Paul was quite confident he was gonna be among those who would meet Jesus in the sky.<\/span><\/p>\n 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17\u00a0<\/strong>For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep.\u00a0[15] For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep.\u00a0[16] For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel\u2019s call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first;\u00a0[17] then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n Paul was referring to the people alive when the Second Coming occurred. He did not teach when<\/em> it would occur, since Jesus had instructed His disciples in a post-Resurrection appearance that they can\u2019t and shouldn\u2019t know when this momentous event would happen:<\/p>\n Acts 1:6-7<\/strong> [written by Luke]\u00a0So when they had come together, they asked him, \u201cLord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?\u201d\u00a0[7] He said to them, \u201cIt is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has fixed by his own authority.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n The Apostle Paul reflects this \u201ceschatological agnosticism\u201d in his next chapter:<\/p>\n 1 Thessalonians 5:1-3\u00a0<\/strong>But as to the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need to have anything written to you.\u00a0[2] For you yourselves know well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.\u00a0[3] When people say, \u201cThere is peace and security,\u201d then sudden destruction will come upon them as travail comes upon a woman with child, and there will be no escape.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges<\/em><\/a> thus comments on 1 Thessalonians 4:15:<\/p>\n that we which are alive<\/span><\/em>\u00a0and\u00a0remain unto the coming of the Lord<\/span><\/em>] This should be:\u00a0we that are alive, that remain<\/span><\/strong>\u00a0(or\u00a0survive<\/span>)\u00a0unto the coming of the Lord<\/span><\/strong>. The second designation qualifies the first,\u2014\u201cthose (I mean) who survive till the Lord comes.\u201d St Paul did not count on any very near approach of the second Advent: comp.\u00a02 Thessalonians 2:1-2<\/a>. At the same time, his language implies the\u00a0possibility<\/span><\/em>\u00a0of the great event taking place within his lifetime, or that of the present generation. This remained an open question, or rather a matter on which questioning was forbidden (see\u00a0Acts 1:7<\/a>;\u00a0Matthew 24:36<\/a>). \u201cConcerning the times and seasons\u201d nothing was definitely known (ch.\u00a01 Thessalonians 5:1<\/a>, see note). The Apostles \u201cknew in part\u201d and \u201cprophesied in part\u201d (1 Corinthians 13:12<\/a>); and until further light came, it was natural for the Church, ever sighing \u201cCome Lord Jesus, come quickly!\u201d to speak as St Paul does here. The same \u201cwe\u201d occurs in this connection in\u00a01 Corinthians 15:51-52.<\/a><\/p>\n Matthew 24:34\u00a0<\/strong>Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away till all these things take place.<\/p>\n Mark 13:1-4<\/strong>\u00a0And as he came out of the temple, one of his disciples said to him, \u201cLook, Teacher, what wonderful stones and what wonderful buildings!\u201d\u00a0[2] And Jesus said to him, \u201cDo you see these great buildings? There will not be left here one stone upon another, that will not be thrown down.\u201d\u00a0[3]\u00a0And as he sat on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately,\u00a0[4] \u201cTell us, when will this be, and what will be the sign when these things are all to be accomplished?\u201d<\/p><\/blockquote>\n Jesus said it would happen \u201cbefore this generation passes away.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n This is an old chestnut of anti-theist atheist polemics. A plausible explanation (where Jesus would be referring both<\/em> to His hearers\u2019 generation and the end times) is explicated by Glenn Miller at the wonderful Christian Thinktank<\/em> site:<\/p>\n [W]hen we notice the structure of the ending in Matthew and Mark, we see how some of the items lay out.<\/p>\n The ending has four points:<\/p>\n Now, the Lesson of the fig tree (Point 1) can only be a reference to the destruction of the Temple\/City. It draws a distinction between \u201call these things\u201d and \u201cit is near\u201d\u2013all these things cannot logically then contain the 2nd Advent [which is the \u201cit\u201d in \u201cit is near\u201d-cf. D.A.Carson, EBC, in. loc.; and William Lane in NICNT (Mark):478: \u201cThey (all these things<\/i>) cannot refer to the celestial upheavals described in verses 24-25 which are inseparable from the parousia<\/em> (verse 26) and the gathering of the elect (verse 27). These events represent the end and cannot constitute a preliminary sign of something else.\u201d]<\/p>\n With this \u201cend\u201d of the end-time continuum being identified in Point 1 (as the \u201cthese things\u201d question of the disciples), Jesus then solemnly announces WHEN this \u2018beginning of the end-times\u2019 will occur\u2013within that generation (Point 2). With this, He has answered the initial question of the \u2018these things\u2019\u2013the immediate historical context of the question of the destruction of the temple.<\/p>\n He then turns (in point 3 above) to describe the \u201cother end\u201d of the end-times continuum\u2013the destruction of the universe (cf. 2 Peter 2.10:\u00a0But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.<\/i>). Here Jesus is pointing back to those descriptions of the very end, as in Mt 24.29:\u00a0\u201cImmediately after the distress of those days \u201c`the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.\u2019<\/i>\u00a0and Lk 21.25f:\u00a0On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. 26 Men will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken.<\/i>\u00a0He points out that the Great End will be certain, as the continuance of His word is certain (yes!).<\/p>\n And then we have Point 4\u2013the comment that no one but the Father knows the time of the Very-End. [The subsequent parables by Matt in 24.42ff and Luke in 12.39ff, which use the \u2018thief\u2019 image, connect this piece\u2013via the 2 Peter quote above\u2013with the Great-End, and NOT with the destruction of the Temple.]<\/p>\n So we have a reasonable structure for the ending sequence-(Point 1) pay attention to the beginning of signs; (Point 2) some of you will definitely see these beginnings; (Point 3) the Big-End pointed to by these signs will surely come; and (Point 4) but none of you can know when (with the implications that are immediately drawn in several of the texts to watchfulness, faithfulness, and industry.)<\/p>\n Thus, [F.F.] Bruce summarizes the same conclusion reached here . . .:<\/p><\/blockquote>\n Jesus, as in Mark, foretells how not one stone of the temple will be left standing on another, and the disciples say, \u2018Tell us, (a) when will these things be, and (b) what will be the sign of your coming and of the close of the age?\u2019 (Matt. 24:3). Then, at the end of the following discourse, Jesus answers their twofold question by saying that (a) \u2018this generation will not pass away till all\u00a0these things<\/i>\u00a0take place (Mtt 24.34) while, (b) with regard to his coming and \u2018the close of the age\u2019, he tells them that \u2018of\u00a0that<\/i>\u00a0day and hour no one knows\u2026\u2019 [Hard Sayings of Jesus<\/em>, IVP, 1983, 229-230]<\/p>\n This would yield a very nice Hebraic parallelism:<\/p><\/blockquote>\n \u00a0(A) Pay attention to my words\u2013they come before (pre-announce)\u00a0these things<\/i>\u2013the beginning of the end-times (destruction of Temple) (\u201cOn\u2026was Jesus mistaken about this 2nd Coming?\u201d<\/a>: 10-22-96)<\/p><\/blockquote>\n For related in-depth analysis of this general subject matter, see my papers:<\/p>\n Debate with an Agnostic on the Meaning of \u201cLast Days\u201d and Whether the Author of Hebrews Was a False Prophet<\/a>.<\/p>\n \u201cThe Last Days\u201d:\u00a0Meaning in Hebrew, Biblical Thought<\/a><\/p>\n ***<\/p>\n Photo credit:\u00a0<\/span><\/strong>geralt<\/a>\u00a0(9-3-17)<\/span> [Pixabay<\/a> \/\u00a0Pixabay License<\/a>]<\/p>\n ***<\/p>\n<\/body><\/html>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":" This is an installment of my series of replies to an article by Dr. David Madison:\u00a0a pastor in the Methodist Church for nine years, who has a PhD in Biblical Studies from Boston University. It\u2019s called,\u00a0\u201cThings We Wish Jesus Hadn\u2019t Said\u201d\u00a0(Debunking Christianity, 7-21-19). His words will be in\u00a0blue\u00a0below. Dr. Madison makes several \u201cgeneric\u201d digs at […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2331,"featured_media":36317,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[124,31,583,172],"tags":[9140,2519,1738,1043,745,258,2639,9137,335,525,6519,1367,9119,648,223,224,55],"class_list":["post-36311","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-atheism-agnosticism","category-bible-and-tradition","category-hell-satan-last-things","category-trinitarianism-christology","tag-2nd-coming","tag-alleged-biblical-contradictions","tag-anti-christian-bigotry","tag-anti-theism","tag-anti-theists","tag-atheism","tag-atheist-exegesis","tag-atheist-hermeneutics","tag-atheists","tag-bible-contradictions","tag-contradictions-in-the-bible","tag-critiques-of-christianity","tag-david-madison","tag-debunking-christianity","tag-eschatology","tag-judgment","tag-second-coming"],"yoast_head":"\n\n
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\n(B) When will it occur?\u2013You know when, within your generation
\n(A\u2019) Pay attention to my words\u2013they outlast\u00a0that day<\/i>\u2013the ending of the end-times
\n(B\u2019) When will it occur?\u2013No one knows when (except the Father)<\/p>\n