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This is an installment of my series of replies to an article by Dr. David Madison<\/a>:\u00a0a pastor in the Methodist Church for nine years, who has a PhD in Biblical Studies from Boston University. It\u2019s called,\u00a0\u201cThings We Wish Jesus Hadn\u2019t Said\u201d<\/a>\u00a0(Debunking Christianity<\/em>, 7-21-19). His words will be in\u00a0blue\u00a0<\/span>below. Dr. Madison makes several \u201cgeneric\u201d digs at Jesus and Christianity, in the written portion (it details a series of 12 podcasts):<\/p>\n A challenge for Christians: If you\u2019re so sure Jesus existed, then you have some explaining to do. A major frustration is that, while believers are indignant at all the talk about Jesus not existing, they don\u2019t know the issues that fuel the skepticism\u2014and are unwilling to inform themselves.<\/span><\/p>\n Yes, I\u2019m up to the \u201cchallenge.\u201d No problem at all. I\u2019m not threatened or \u201cscared\u201d by this in the slightest. It\u2019s what I do, as an apologist. The question is whether\u00a0Dr. Madison<\/em>\u00a0is up to interacting with\u00a0counter-critiques<\/em>? Or will he act like the voluminous anti-theist atheist polemicist Bob Seidensticker?: who directly challenged me in one of his own comboxes to respond to his innumerable attack-pieces against Christianity and the Bible, and then courageously proceeded to\u00a0utterly ignore<\/em>\u00a0my 35 specific critiques<\/a>\u00a0of his claims as of this writing. We shall soon see which course Dr. Madison will decide to take. Anyway, he also states in his post and combox:<\/p>\n [S]o many of the words of Jesus are genuinely shocking. These words aren\u2019t proclaimed much from the pulpit, . . . Hence the folks in the pews have absorbed and adored an idealized Jesus. Christian apologists make their livings refiguring so many of the things Jesus supposedly said.<\/span><\/p>\n The gospels are riddled with contradictions and bad theology, and Jesus is so frequently depicted as a cult fanatic\u2014because cult fanatics wrote the gospels. We see Jesus only through their theological filters. I just want to grab hold of Christian heads (standing behind them, with a hand on each ear) and force them to look straight ahead, unflinchingly, at the gospels, and then ask \u201cTell me what you see!\u201d uncoached by apologist specialists, i.e., priests and pastors, who\u2019ve had a lot of practice making bad texts look good. . . .\u00a0I DO say, \u201cDeal with the really bad stuff in the gospels.\u201d Are you SURE you\u2019ve not make a big mistake endorsing this particular Lord and Savior? That\u2019s the whole point of this series of Flash Podcasts, because a helluva lot of Christians would agree, right away, that these quotes are bad news\u2014if no one told then that they\u2019ve been attributed to Jesus.<\/span><\/p>\n Of course, Dr. Madison \u2014 good anti-theist atheist that he is \u2014 takes the view that we are not at all\u00a0sure<\/em>\u00a0whether Jesus in fact said\u00a0anything<\/em>\u00a0recorded in the Gospels in the first place. I don\u2019t play that game, because there is no end to it. It\u2019s like trying to pin jello to the wall. The atheist always has their convenient out (when refuted in argument about some biblical text) that Jesus never said it\u00a0anyway<\/em>\u00a0[wink wink and sly patronizing grin], and\/or that the biblical text in question was simply added later by dishonest ultra-biased Christian partisans and propagandists. It\u2019s a silly and ultimately intellectually dishonest game, and so I always refuse to play it with atheists or anyone else, because there is no way to \u201cwin\u201d with such an absurdly stacked, purely subjective deck.<\/p>\n In my defense of biblical texts, I start with the assumption that the manuscripts we have are quite sufficient for us to know what is in the Bible (believe it or not). Going on from there, I simply defend particular [supposedly \u201cdifficult\u201d] texts, and note with appropriate argumentation, that \u201chere, the Bible teaches so-and-so,\u201d etc. I deal with the texts\u00a0as they exist<\/em>. I don\u2019t get into the endlessly arbitrary, subjective games that atheists and theologically liberal biblical skeptics play with the texts, in their self-serving textual criticism.<\/p>\n Dr. Madison himself (fortunately) grants my outlook in terms of\u00a0practical<\/em>\u00a0\u201cx vs. y\u201d debate purposes:\u00a0\u201cFor the sake of argument, I\u2019m willing to say, okay, Jesus was real and, yes, we have gospels that tell the story.\u201d\u00a0<\/span>And in the combox:\u00a0\u201cSo, we can go along with their insistence that he did exist. We\u2019ll play on their field, i.e., the gospels.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n Good! So we shall examine his cherry-picked texts and see whether his interpretations of them can stand up to scrutiny. He is issuing challenges, and I as an apologist will be dishing a bunch of my own right back to him. Two can play this game. I will be dealing honestly with his challenges. Will he\u00a0return<\/em>\u00a0the favor, and engage in serious and substantive dialogue? Again, we\u2019ll soon know what his reaction will be. A true dialogue is of a confident, inquisitive, \u201cnothing to fear and everything to gain\u201d\u00a0back-and-forth<\/em>\u00a0and\u00a0interactive<\/em>\u00a0nature, not merely \u201cships passing in the night\u201d or what I call \u201cmutual monologue.\u201d<\/p>\n *****<\/p>\n Dr. Madison\u2019s 12th podcast of twelve is entitled: \u201cOn Luke 9:59-62, Jesus\u2019 rude retort, \u2018Let the dead bury their dead\u2019 \u201c<\/a>. Here is the passage:<\/span><\/p>\n Luke 9:59-62<\/strong> (RSV)\u00a0To another he said, \u201cFollow me.\u201d But he said, \u201cLord, let me first go and bury my father.\u201d\u00a0[60] But he said to him, \u201cLeave the dead to bury their own dead; but as for you, go and proclaim the kingdom of God.\u201d\u00a0[61] Another said, \u201cI will follow you, Lord; but let me first say farewell to those at my home.\u201d\u00a0[62] Jesus said to him, \u201cNo one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for the kingdom of God.\u201d\u00a0<\/span><\/p><\/blockquote>\n The negatives about Jesus in the Gospels are ignored. . . . The Gospel writers . . . were cult propagandists. . . . Of course, cults don\u2019t want you to say farewell to your family. That would indicate divided loyalty. We can be sure that this Jesus script was invented by Luke because it\u2019s not found in Matthew\u2019s version of the story.<\/span><\/p>\n The same thought is found in Matthew:<\/span><\/p>\n Matthew 8:19-22<\/strong>\u00a0And a scribe came up and said to him, \u201cTeacher, I will follow you wherever you go.\u201d\u00a0[20] And Jesus said to him, \u201cFoxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man has nowhere to lay his head.\u201d\u00a0[21] Another of the disciples said to him, \u201cLord, let me first go and bury my father.\u201d\u00a0[22] But Jesus said to him, \u201cFollow me, and leave the dead to bury their own dead.\u201d\u00a0<\/span><\/p><\/blockquote>\n Does that mean that now it isn\u2019t \u201cinvented\u201d because Matthew has it, too<\/em>?<\/span><\/p>\n Even when I was a kid, I thought [this] was a terrible thing to say. . . . Why aren\u2019t Christians bothered<\/em> \u2014 I mean, really upset<\/em> \u2014 by such nasty words? C\u2019mon! It\u2019s really mean to say, let someone else bury your father. . . . Are the good things good enough to cancel out all the bad stuff he\u2019s said, or that the Gospel writers invented?<\/span><\/p>\n Dr. Madison seems to think this is some sort of silver bullet, since he has now done some variation of the [supposed] \u201chostility to family and wife\u201d polemic now four times (installments<\/span> one<\/a>, four<\/a>, five<\/a>, and twelve [this current one] ). It takes up fully a third of his series thus far. He loves to insinuate that this is all fanatic cult-like behavior: to separate initiates from their previous strongest allegiance of family. People who do that are wacko, extremist nuts \u2014 so Dr. Madison reasons \u2014 ; therefore, Jesus is also<\/em> a nut (or those who supposedly invented Him). I\u2019ve thoroughly answered the charge, and it is seen over and over that there is nothing to it (it\u2019s simply non-literal literary devices), but we\u2019ll provide a bit more now, at no extra charge.<\/span><\/p>\n Catholic apologist Phillip Campbell<\/span> writes on his Unam Sanctam Catholicam<\/em> site<\/a> (7-30-18):<\/span><\/p>\n The issue revolves around the Jewish practice of \u201csecond burial\u201d common in Palestine in Jesus\u2019 time. In Jesus\u2019 time, after a Jewish person had died, he would be immediately interred in the family burial cave or plot. The immediate period of mourning was seven days (shi\u2019va<\/i>), followed by a less intense mourning period of 30 days, called\u00a0shloshim<\/i>. However, the mourning period was not totally concluded until all the flesh had rotted off the body. This process usually took a year. At that time, the bones would be gathered and re-internment, or \u201csecond burial\u201d\u00a0(likkut a\u1e93amot<\/i>) would take place. The bones would be gathered together, placed in an ossuary (small chest-like container) and re-interred.<\/span><\/p>\n If the phrase \u201clet me first go and bury my father\u201d refers to this custom, then the man is asking Jesus for time to wait for the year-long\u00a0likkut azamot<\/i>\u00a0mourning period to end so he can re-inter his father. Jesus essentially tells him, \u201cYou have already buried your father in the family tomb and honored him. There are others who can see to technicality of the re-internment.\u201d . . .\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n [This]\u00a0view has the benefit of taking into account Jewish burial customs has practiced in Jesus\u2019 own day. It makes sense of Jesus\u2019 objection; I noted above Jesus\u2019 objection doesn\u2019t make a lot of sense if the man is only asking for a few hours. But if the passage is referring to second burial, he could be asking for as much as 12\u00a0months<\/i>\u00a0leave, in which case it makes a lot more sense why Christ would object. The father is already buried in the family tomb with the remains of all the other family members; when Jesus says, \u201cLet the dead bury their own dead,\u201d he\u2019s essentially making a joke, saying, \u201cYour dad\u2019s bones aren\u2019t going anywhere. They are safe in the family tomb with all your other ancestors. I\u2019m sure they\u2019ll keep him company\u201d; in other words, \u201cLet the dead (your other ancestors in the family tomb) take care of your father\u2019s bones until someone else in the family shows up to bury them.\u201d\u00a0<\/span><\/p><\/blockquote>\n Gordon Franz<\/a> (Archaeology and Biblical Research<\/i>\u00a05\/2 [1992] 54-58)<\/span> examines and exegetes the text<\/a> in even greater detail, along the same lines; mentioning relevant scholarly articles and related Bible passages:<\/span><\/p>\n In the first century, when a person died, they normally were taken and buried immediately in the family burial cave that had been hewn out of bedrock. [For the archaeology of Jewish tombs during the New Testament period, see Rahmani 1958, 1961, 1982a].\u00a0\u00a0This custom is based on the injunction found in the Mosaic Law, not to leave the corpse on an executed person on the tree overnight (Deut. 21:22-23).\u00a0\u00a0Two examples of immediate burials are found in the New Testament: Jesus (John 19:31) and Ananias and Sapphira (Acts 5:6-10).<\/span><\/p>\n Immediately after the burial, the family would separate itself and mourn for seven days.\u00a0\u00a0This mourning period was called\u00a0shiv\u2019ah<\/em>.\u00a0\u00a0It would have been impossible for the disciples to make their request if their father had just died.\u00a0\u00a0If they were the eldest sons, they were obligated by custom to immediately bury their fathers.\u00a0\u00a0. . . the disciples would have been acting contrary to normal first-century Jewish burial practices.<\/span><\/p>\n An Interpretation Based on First-Century Jewish Burial Practices<\/strong><\/span><\/p>\n McCane suggests an interpretation that is consistent with first-century Jewish burial practices (1990:40-41).\u00a0\u00a0After a body was placed in a burial cave, it was left to decompose.\u00a0\u00a0The family mourned for seven days.\u00a0\u00a0This initial mourning period was followed by a less intense 30-day period of mourning, called\u00a0shloshim<\/em>.\u00a0\u00a0However, the entire mourning period was not fully over until the flesh of the deceased had decomposed, usually about a year later.\u00a0\u00a0The Jerusalem Talmud states: When the flesh had wasted away, the bones were collected and placed in chests (ossuaries).\u00a0\u00a0On that day (the son) mourned, but the following day he was glad, because his forebears rested from judgment (Moed Qatan<\/em>\u00a01:5).<\/span><\/p>\n The final act of mourning, the gathering of the bones into a bone box called an ossuary, was called \u201cossilegium,\u201d or \u201csecondary burial.\u201d\u00a0 It is this act, I believe, that is in view in our Lord\u2019s response.\u00a0\u00a0[For a good discussion of secondary burials, see Meyers 1971; Rahmani 1981.\u00a0\u00a0On ossuaries, see Rahmani 1982b].\u00a0\u00a0The disciples\u2019 request and Jesus\u2019 response makes good sense in light of the Jewish custom of secondary burial.\u00a0\u00a0When the disciples requested time to bury their fathers they were actually asking for time to finish the rite of secondary burial.\u00a0\u00a0Their father had died, been placed in the family burial cave, and the sons had sat\u00a0shiv\u2019ah<\/em>\u00a0and most likely\u00a0shloshim<\/em>.\u00a0\u00a0They had requested anywhere from a few weeks to up to 11 months to finish the ritual of ossilegium before they returned to Jesus.<\/span><\/p>\n Jesus\u2019 sharp answer also fits well with secondary burial.\u00a0\u00a0The fathers had been buried in the family burial caves and their bodies were slowly decomposing.\u00a0\u00a0In the tombs, along with the fathers, were other family members who had died, some awaiting secondary burial, others already placed in ossuaries.\u00a0\u00a0When Jesus stated: \u201cLet the dead bury their own dead,\u201d He was referring to two different kinds of dead in the tomb: the bones of the deceased which had already been neatly placed in ossuaries and the fathers who had yet to be reburied.\u00a0\u00a0The phrase \u201cown dead\u201d indicates that the fathers were included among the dead.<\/span><\/p>\n [. . .]<\/p>\n The Reason for Jesus\u2019 Response<\/strong><\/span><\/p>\n Why would Jesus respond in a seemingly harsh manner?\u00a0\u00a0The purpose of His response may have been twofold.\u00a0\u00a0The first purpose was to encourage the disciples to faithfully follow Him.\u00a0\u00a0The second purpose and perhaps more importantly, was to teach correct theology.<\/span><\/p>\n The concept of gathering the bones of one\u2019s ancestors is deeply embedded in the Hebrew Scriptures and reflected in Israelite burial practices (Gen. 49:29; Judges 2:10; 16:31; I Kings 11:21, 43, etc.).\u00a0\u00a0However, by New Testament times, the concept had taken on a new meaning.\u00a0\u00a0According to the Rabbinic sources, the decomposition of the flesh atoned for the sins of the dead person (a kind of purgatory) and the final stage of this process was gathering the bones and placing them in an ossuary (Meyers 1971: 80-85).\u00a0\u00a0Jesus confronts this contrary theology.\u00a0\u00a0Only faith in Christ\u2019s redemptive work on the cross can atone for sin, not rotting flesh or any other work or merit of our own (Heb. 9:22, 26; Acts 4:12; Eph. 2:8, 9).\u00a0\u00a0Jesus may have rebuked these two disciples rather harshly because they were following the corrupted practice of secondary burial.<\/span><\/p>\n Conclusion<\/strong><\/span><\/p>\n An amplified (interpretive) rendering of this statement might be:\u00a0Look, you have already honored your father by giving him a proper burial in the family sepulcher.\u00a0\u00a0Now, instead of waiting for the flesh to decompose, this can never atone for sin, go and preach the Kingdom of God and tell of the only true means of atonement, faith alone in Christ.\u00a0\u00a0Let the bones of you dead father\u2019s ancestors gather his bones and place them in an ossuary.\u00a0\u00a0You follow me!<\/em>\u00a0\u00a0This interpretation allows for Jesus to have upheld the fifth commandment, takes the text at face value, and does justice to the Jewish burial practices of the first century.\u00a0\u00a0The interpretation is therefore consistent theologically, Biblically, and historically, and answers the critics accurately.<\/span><\/p>\n Bibiography<\/strong><\/p>\n McCane, B.<\/span><\/p>\n 1990\u00a0\u201cLet the Dead Bury Their Own Dead\u201d: Secondary Burial and Matt. 8:21-22.\u00a0\u00a0Harvard Theological Review<\/em>\u00a083:31-43.<\/span><\/p>\n Meyers, Eric<\/span><\/p>\n 1971\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0Jewish Ossuaries: Reburial and Rebirth<\/em>.\u00a0\u00a0Rome: Biblical Institute.<\/span><\/p>\n Rahmani, Levi<\/span><\/p>\n 1958\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0A Jewish Tomb on Shahin Hill, Jerusalem.\u00a0\u00a0Israel Exploration Journal<\/em>\u00a08: 101-105.<\/span><\/p>\n 1961\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0Jewish Rock-Cut Tombs in Jerusalem.\u00a0Atiqot<\/em>\u00a03: 93-120.<\/span><\/p>\n 1981\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0Ancient Jerusalem\u2019s Funerary Customs and Tombs: Part One.\u00a0\u00a0Biblical Archaeologist<\/em>\u00a044: 171-177.<\/span><\/p>\n 1982a\u00a0Ancient Jerusalem\u2019s Funerary Customs and Tombs: Part Three.\u00a0\u00a0Biblical Archaeologist<\/em>\u00a045: 43-53.<\/span><\/p>\n 1982b\u00a0Ancient Jerusalem\u2019s Funerary Customs and Tombs: Part Four.\u00a0\u00a0Biblical Archaeologist<\/em>\u00a045: 109-119.<\/span><\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n ***<\/p>\n Photo credit:<\/span><\/strong> Ian Scott<\/a>\u00a0(5-21-09).\u00a0First-century CE Jewish ossuaries at the Dominus Flevit church on the Mount of Olives. . . .\u00a0An ossuary is a stone box that would hold the bones of a deceased person after they had been in a tomb long enough that the flesh had decayed. . . . During the Hellenistic and Roman periods [there was a] secondary burial in individual ossuaries that would be placed in any available corners around the tomb.<\/span> [Wikimedia Commons<\/a> \/\u00a0\u00a0Creative Commons<\/a>\u00a0Attribution-Share Alike 2.0 Generic<\/a>\u00a0license]<\/p>\n ***<\/p>\n \u00a0<\/p>\n<\/body><\/html>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":" This is an installment of my series of replies to an article by Dr. David Madison:\u00a0a pastor in the Methodist Church for nine years, who has a PhD in Biblical Studies from Boston University. It\u2019s called,\u00a0\u201cThings We Wish Jesus Hadn\u2019t Said\u201d\u00a0(Debunking Christianity, 7-21-19). His words will be in\u00a0blue\u00a0below. Dr. Madison makes several \u201cgeneric\u201d digs at […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2331,"featured_media":36618,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[124,448],"tags":[2519,2589,1738,1043,745,258,2639,9137,335,525,6519,1367,9119,648,4326,9152,7561,9155,9219,9225,9228,9149,9222],"class_list":["post-36606","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-atheism-agnosticism","category-jews-judaism-old-testament","tag-alleged-biblical-contradictions","tag-annulments","tag-anti-christian-bigotry","tag-anti-theism","tag-anti-theists","tag-atheism","tag-atheist-exegesis","tag-atheist-hermeneutics","tag-atheists","tag-bible-contradictions","tag-contradictions-in-the-bible","tag-critiques-of-christianity","tag-david-madison","tag-debunking-christianity","tag-evangelical-counsels","tag-forsaking-family","tag-heroic-renunciation","tag-heroic-sacrifice","tag-jewish-burial-customs","tag-jewish-ossuaries","tag-jewish-second-burial","tag-leaving-family","tag-let-the-dead-bury-the-dead"],"yoast_head":"\n\n