This is almost like talking out of both sides of one\u2019s mouth. You are supposed to be meditating on the life of Christ; how about praying 54 prayers to Him and only about 21 (or even less) to Mary.<\/span><\/p>\nYou draw a false dichotomy, based on a fallacy; namely, that Catholics regard asking Mary to intercede in the same fashion as we do a direct prayer to Jesus (thus placing her on God\u2019s level). We see the two \u201cprayers\u201d as separate but not mutually exclusive. Say, e.g., a soldier is dying on the field of battle and a chaplain comes to attend to his spiritual needs. He has one minute to live. If he says to the chaplain \u201cplease pray for me\u201d and then dies immediately after that, would you say that he was not also intending his sentiment to go \u201cthrough\u201d the chaplain to God? We say he was (or could be) doing both.<\/p>\n
But since Protestants are so dead-set against the communion of saints, they always think that the practice is somehow antithetical to prayers to God, when in fact it is simply complementary, and based on \u201cthe prayers of a righteous man availeth much.\u201d You admit that Mary was very righteous. Very well, then, we think her prayers are quite powerful because of her righteousness and proximity to Jesus, so we ask her to pray for us a lot, in the Rosary, while meditating on Jesus, who is the ultimate recipient of our prayers, through Mary as intercessor.<\/p>\n
Then again, many Protestants object to crucifixes, as if there is anything wrong with, or \u201cunbiblical\u201d about, meditation on Jesus\u2019 redemptive death for us (an objection held because, we are told, He is now resurrected and seated at the right hand of God the Father). At the same time, the people saying this see no problem with meditating on Jesus as a baby, every Christmas. If we can think about our Lord as a baby (which He most assuredly is not, anymore), why not as Savior of the world on a cross?<\/p>\n
I\u2019ve never understood this. It seems to me like the worst logical and biblical problems in Protestantism concentrated into one absurd, essentially silly objection to a perfectly Christian and pious thing to do: a meditation on the most important event that ever occurred in world history and salvation history. Strange, odd . . .<\/p>\n
I have no problem with crucifixes. Paul stated that while he was among the Corinthians he wanted to know only Christ, and Him crucified. It is just that we must be careful not to pray to such images.<\/span><\/p>\nWe can\u2019t pray to Jesus while looking at an image of Him? We must close our eyes to pray? Where is that in the Bible?<\/p>\n
There is nothing wrong, however, with using them for meditation pieces or reminders. Often anti-Catholics tend to believe that Catholics don\u2019t believe in the Risen Christ, because of the emphasis on crucifixes, but that is an obvious misconception.<\/span><\/p>\nExcellent; good for you.<\/p>\n
For example, if I met you and spent two or three hours just asking you to pray for me and\u00a0talking about how you were a great servant of God, over and over, you would probably begin to think that my focus was not on God but on man.<\/span><\/p>\nSure, but this has nothing to do with the Rosary, because, clearly, you are unfamiliar with what it is about. Join the crowd . . . I was the same way before I converted.<\/p>\n
I am not unfamiliar with the Rosary. I got my Rosary statistics from a Catholic site newadvent.org, from which, incidentally, I stumbled upon the link to your site for the first time.)<\/span><\/p>\nYou are unfamiliar with\u00a0praying<\/i>\u00a0it. That\u2019s what I meant. And you don\u2019t seem to have talked to any Catholics who do. I\u2019m not the most devotional-type Catholic in the world, either. I\u2019m sure many, many Catholics could explain the experience of praying the Rosary better than I have.<\/p>\n
I disagree with the statement\u00a0<\/span>[from Fulton Sheen]\u00a0that \u201cHe needed her.\u201d God could have chosen any other woman to carry His Son had He so willed.<\/span><\/p>\nOf course, but what was meant was that the Incarnation required a human: a woman. No more, no less. He didn\u2019t\u00a0need<\/i>\u00a0Mary in the sense that He couldn\u2019t have chosen to enter the world in some other fashion (say, as an adult, like Adam). He \u201cneeded\u201d her in the sense that, having chosen a birth as a baby as the route to Incarnation, and thus requiring genes from the mother, etc., that Mary was then \u201cnecessary\u201d secondarily, to achieve that divine purpose.<\/p>\n
Even if I admit that this would acquite Immaculate Conception (which I will not for a moment admit), He still could have immaculately conceived any other woman. The existence of any created being is totally contingent on God\u2019s will: God loves everyone, but He does not \u201cneed\u201d anyone. Mary was the one who needed Him, and not vice versa.<\/span><\/p>\nWe have no disagreement here, so it is a moot point. You misunderstood Fulton Sheen\u2019s reasoning.<\/p>\n
I would agree that knowing the Lord is \u201cenough,\u201d since He was enough for Paul and the other Apostles.<\/span><\/p>\nIn a skeletal, lowest common denominator sense, yes. But Catholics are interested in the fullness of the Gospel and biblical, apostolic Christianity. A king would still be a king if he sat on a simple frame chair in a bare white room, in the dark and cold, naked and all alone. But the point is that the king surrounds himself with a resplendent court, colors, music, food, and (oftentimes) the Queen Mother as well. That is how God presents Himself in Revelation. Catholics are merely applying this fullness of Christianity in\u00a0this<\/i>\u00a0life, insofar as it is possible to do so.<\/p>\n
I don\u2019t see how a mere human being could have such honor alongside God. The Bible only talks about the King; a Queen is never mentioned, and I think that giving such a laudatory and singular heavenly Royal Title to any mere human being is apt to lead to an overemphasis on that human being.<\/span><\/p>\nI gave the examples of Revelation 12 and the Queen-Mother Bathsheba.<\/p>\n
(Mary, my Catholic friends tell me, could not intercede for everyone perfectly then, because she was still on earth. This is why, they say, her name was not invoked in the epistles, except for a vague reference in Galatians 4).<\/span><\/p>\nThis is more than adequately accounted for by development of doctrine, and Paul\u2019s purpose in his letters.<\/p>\n
<\/p>
Concerning the woman of Revelation 12:<\/center>Most Protestant scholars interpret this woman as being the nation of Israel (note the twelve stars.) We are her \u201cseed\u201d because we belong to Him who is the seed of Abraham (Christ\u2013see Galatians 3).<\/span>\nWell, Catholics believe the passage has a multiple application: to Israel, the Church, and Mary. This is not at all uncommon in Holy Scripture.<\/p>\n
Also, I was under the understanding that Mary did not experience pain in childbirth according to Catholicism, in direct contradistinction to this passage. Applying this passage to the church doesn\u2019t seem to be very good exegesis, since Christ was not produced by the church after this manner, but preceded the church.<\/span><\/p>\nBut Israel preceded the Church and Jesus\u2019 birth, and the Church was an extension of Israel, as the \u201cpeople of God.\u201d<\/p>\n
The nation of Israel was often unfaithful and played the whore, and even I myself would hate to see that often unfaithful nation compared to Mary.<\/span><\/p>\nYour view of Israel is not the Apostle Paul\u2019s You need to read the entire chapter eleven of the Book of Romans.<\/p>\n
The pain of Mary at Jesus\u2019 birth could have been a spiritual agony, knowing what was to happen to Him.<\/p>\n
That is speculative, and I tend to think that Mary did not understand His future passion at that time, hence this probably cannot be \u201cspiritual agony\u201d either Mary didn\u2019t understand many things about Jesus early on (Luke 2:50)<\/span><\/p>\nHow do you conclude \u201cmany things\u201d from a passage which states that she didn\u2019t understand\u00a0one<\/i>\u00a0thing Jesus said? The angel told her at the Annunciation that Jesus was the Son of God (Luke 1:35) and the Messiah (Luke 1:32-33). If Mary was familiar with the Scriptures about the Suffering Messiah (e.g., Isaiah 53), then she could have come to this conclusion through deduction alone, apart from likely divine revelation given to her.<\/p>\n
Simeon\u2019s prophecy to Mary in Luke 2:34-35 alluded to the fact that Jesus would be \u201copposed\u201d and that a \u201csword\u201d would \u201cpierce\u201d Mary\u2019s \u201csoul.\u201d So although it isn\u2019t an airtight argument, I believe that the Catholic view of the passage is biblically plausible.<\/p>\n
Yes, but as I noted above, Mary probably did not understand all of this early on.<\/span><\/p>\nThe Bible just taught that she\u00a0did<\/i>\u00a0(at least in part)! You have no basis for your conclusion \u201cprobably\u201d other than your own unsupported opinion. You assume (against both Scripture and a strong Apostolic Tradition) that Mary was more or less ordinary, a sinner like all of us; therefore she didn\u2019t have any particular advantage of knowledge . . .<\/p>\n
It is speculative to say that Mary is symbolized here. Mary was from the tribe of Judah; she was not from all of the tribes, since no human possibly could be. The twelve stars obviously symbolize the twelve tribes of Israel. Thus, we conclude that that the woman represents Israel. There could, of course, be double symbolism, but it is speculative for us to say. I also doubt, for reasons delineated above, that one single person could<\/em><\/strong> be symbolized here at all. <\/span><\/p>\nAlthough the Apostles sometimes used passages as double symbolism (like Is. 7:14), they were directly guided by the Holy Spirit in their writings, whereas we come up with a thousand different conclusions when we try reading into the symbolism of the Bible. Thus, to \u201cprove\u201d a doctrine from the Bible, I think we need clearer statements, not just human interpretations that are far from clear.<\/span><\/p>\nI find no grounds for concluding that Mary was the \u201cfirst Christian.\u201d One could propose Joseph, John the Baptist, Peter, John, Mary Magdalene, or even the thief next to Him on the cross as the first Christian and we could argue about it all day to no avail. The verses you mention are speculative and do not refer to Mary in any direct way.<\/span><\/p>\nStrange argument. Mary was the first to learn (from an angel) that Jesus was the Son of God, and she obviously believed this, as she consented to the Virgin Birth. She bore the son of God and gave birth to Him. She (with St. Joseph) raised Him; talked with and lived with him for thirty years, before His ministry was made public. What an unspeakable privilege! What an unfathomable honor!<\/p>\n
She was there at His first miracle. She didn\u2019t exhibit the obtuseness and dull-headed stupor of the Apostles, when they repeatedly didn\u2019t understand the difficult teachings of Jesus concerning His Passion. She was at the Cross. She was in the Upper Room when the Holy Spirit fell upon all present.<\/p>\n
Yet you suggest that Joseph preceded her in the faith: the one who didn\u2019t even understand at first that she was with child by the Holy Spirit, not a man, or John the Baptist, who only met him as an adult, and doubted who He was for a short time, or the others who came later. I say it is a clear-cut case, and that your reluctance to acknowledge plain and obvious facts here is yet another example of the (later) Protestant desire to minimize, discount, and dismiss Mary at every turn, even though the point at hand has no direct bearing on \u201cCatholic distinctives\u201d which they find so repugnant.<\/p>\n
I may have overstated my case, but I think it is obvious that Mary did not understand everything at first (Luke 2:50), so it is far from obvious who the first, full fledged Christian is. Perhaps it was Mary. Perhaps it was the first person to understand the Resurrection (St. John.) I don\u2019t know who God considers to be the first Christian. I\u2019m not saying it wasn\u2019t Mary; I\u2019m just saying I don\u2019t have enough information to draw a conclusion.<\/span><\/p>\nAgain, who was the first Christian is moot, since it is far from obvious that Mary was the first to understand the atonement, the Resurrection for our justification, etc. The Gospels seem to insinuate that she did not completely understand Christ\u2019s role and mission on this earth. I would\u00a0also deny that Rev. 12 speaks of Mary, hence the appearance of the Ark just before the scene of the woman in travail is not indicative of Mary bringing us the New Covenant.
\n<\/span><\/p>\n***<\/p>\n
(originally 1-21-02)<\/p>\n
Photo credit:<\/strong> The Virgin, the Child Jesus, and St John the Baptist<\/em> (1881), by William-Adolphe Bouguereau (1825-1905)<\/span> [public domain \/ Wikimedia Commons<\/a>]<\/p>\n***<\/p>\n<\/body><\/html>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"
This dialogue came about as a result of\u00a0Jack DisPennett\u2018s critique of my paper,\u00a0The Blessed Virgin Mary:\u00a0Biblical & Catholic Overview. His words will be in\u00a0blue. ***** If Jesus wanted to give her as a mother to all Christians, why was this fact not made clearer? Why was the Trinity not made clearer? Why was not the […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2331,"featured_media":36777,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[45],"tags":[2357,508,1836,716,503,2356,553,680,6028,6025,2582,507,3457,6031,681,504],"class_list":["post-36774","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-blessed-virgin-mary","tag-blessed-virgin-mary","tag-catholic-mariology","tag-co-redemptrix","tag-intercession-of-mary","tag-marian-doctrine","tag-mariology","tag-mary-mediatrix","tag-mary-mother-of-jesus","tag-mary-our-spiritual-mother","tag-mediation-of-mary","tag-mediatrix","tag-mother-of-god","tag-our-lady","tag-spiritual-mother","tag-theotokos","tag-virgin-mary"],"yoast_head":"\n
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Formerly a campus missionary, as a Protestant, Dave was received into the Catholic Church in February 1991, by the late, well-known catechist and theologian, Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave\u2019s articles have appeared in many influential Catholic periodicals, including \\\"This Rock\\\" (now called \\\"Catholic Answers Magazine\\\"), \\\"Envoy Magazine\\\" (Patrick Madrid), \\\"The Catholic Answer,\\\" \\\"The Coming Home Journal,\\\" \\\"Gilbert Magazine\\\" (American Chesterton Society), and \\\"The Latin Mass.\\\" He also writes a featured column for every issue of \\\"The Michigan Catholic\\\": published by the archdiocese of Detroit, and was editor for most of the apologetics tracts published by the St. Paul Street Evangelization apostolate. Dave\u2019s apologetics and writing apostolate was the subject of a feature article in the May 2002 issue of \\\"Envoy Magazine.\\\" He served as the staff moderator at the Internet discussion forum for The Coming Home Network, from 2007-2010. Dave has been interviewed on many nationally syndicated Catholic radio shows, including \\\"Catholic Answers Live\\\" (twice), \\\"Faith and Family Live\\\" (Steve Wood), \\\"Kresta in the Afternoon,\\\" \\\"Son Rise Morning Show,\\\" \\\"Catholic Connection\\\" (Teresa Tomeo), and \\\"The Catholics Next Door.\\\" His large and popular website, \\\"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism,\\\" was online from March 1997 to March 2007, and received the 1998 Catholic Website of the Year award from \\\"Envoy Magazine.\\\" His blog of the same name (now transferred to Patheos), begun in February 2004, contains more than 1,500 papers, at least 500 debates or dialogues, and over 50 distinct \\\"index\\\" web pages. Unsolicited correspondence has indicated many hundreds of conversions (or returns) to the Catholic faith as a result, by God's grace, of these writings. Dave's conversion story was published in the bestselling book \\\"Surprised by Truth\\\" (edited by Patrick Madrid; San Diego: Basilica Press, 1994). Sophia Institute Press has published six of his books: \\\"A Biblical Defense of Catholicism\\\" (Foreword by Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J., 1996 \/ 2003), \\\"The Catholic Verses\\\" (2004), \\\"The One-Minute Apologist\\\" (2007), \\\"Bible Proofs for Catholic Truths\\\" (2009), \\\"The Quotable Newman\\\" (editor: 2012), and \\\"Proving the Catholic Faith is Biblical\\\" (2015). He is co-author (with Dr. Paul Thigpen) of the inserts for \\\"The New Catholic Answer Bible\\\" (Our Sunday Visitor: 2005), and editor for \\\"The Wisdom of Mr. Chesterton: The Very Best Quotes, Quips, and Cracks from the Pen of G. K. 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Dwight Longenecker, Brandon Vogt, Marcellino D'Ambrosio, and Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave has been happily married to his wife Judy since October 1984. 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Formerly a campus missionary, as a Protestant, Dave was received into the Catholic Church in February 1991, by the late, well-known catechist and theologian, Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave\u2019s articles have appeared in many influential Catholic periodicals, including \"This Rock\" (now called \"Catholic Answers Magazine\"), \"Envoy Magazine\" (Patrick Madrid), \"The Catholic Answer,\" \"The Coming Home Journal,\" \"Gilbert Magazine\" (American Chesterton Society), and \"The Latin Mass.\" He also writes a featured column for every issue of \"The Michigan Catholic\": published by the archdiocese of Detroit, and was editor for most of the apologetics tracts published by the St. Paul Street Evangelization apostolate. Dave\u2019s apologetics and writing apostolate was the subject of a feature article in the May 2002 issue of \"Envoy Magazine.\" He served as the staff moderator at the Internet discussion forum for The Coming Home Network, from 2007-2010. Dave has been interviewed on many nationally syndicated Catholic radio shows, including \"Catholic Answers Live\" (twice), \"Faith and Family Live\" (Steve Wood), \"Kresta in the Afternoon,\" \"Son Rise Morning Show,\" \"Catholic Connection\" (Teresa Tomeo), and \"The Catholics Next Door.\" His large and popular website, \"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism,\" was online from March 1997 to March 2007, and received the 1998 Catholic Website of the Year award from \"Envoy Magazine.\" His blog of the same name (now transferred to Patheos), begun in February 2004, contains more than 1,500 papers, at least 500 debates or dialogues, and over 50 distinct \"index\" web pages. Unsolicited correspondence has indicated many hundreds of conversions (or returns) to the Catholic faith as a result, by God's grace, of these writings. Dave's conversion story was published in the bestselling book \"Surprised by Truth\" (edited by Patrick Madrid; San Diego: Basilica Press, 1994). Sophia Institute Press has published six of his books: \"A Biblical Defense of Catholicism\" (Foreword by Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J., 1996 \/ 2003), \"The Catholic Verses\" (2004), \"The One-Minute Apologist\" (2007), \"Bible Proofs for Catholic Truths\" (2009), \"The Quotable Newman\" (editor: 2012), and \"Proving the Catholic Faith is Biblical\" (2015). He is co-author (with Dr. Paul Thigpen) of the inserts for \"The New Catholic Answer Bible\" (Our Sunday Visitor: 2005), and editor for \"The Wisdom of Mr. Chesterton: The Very Best Quotes, Quips, and Cracks from the Pen of G. K. Chesterton\" (Saint Benedict Press \/ TAN Books: 2009). \"100 Biblical Arguments Against Sola Scriptura\" was published by Catholic Answers in May 2012. His \"Quotable Wesley\" compilation was published by (Protestant \/ Wesleyan publisher) Beacon Hill Press in April 2014. Several of his 49 books are bestsellers in their field. Dave maintains a popular personal Facebook page, a Facebook author page, and has a Twitter account as well. He offers almost all of his books in e-book form on his own Biblical Catholicism site (http:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/), at a permanent deep discount: only $2.99 for ePub, mobi, and AZW, and $1.99 for PDF. His writing has been enthusiastically endorsed or recommended by many leading Catholic apologists, authors, and priests, including Dr. Scott Hahn, Fr. Peter M. J. Stravinskas, Marcus Grodi, Patrick Madrid, Steve Ray, Tim Staples, Devin Rose, Mike Aquilina, Al Kresta, Karl Keating, Fr. Dwight Longenecker, Brandon Vogt, Marcellino D'Ambrosio, and Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave has been happily married to his wife Judy since October 1984. They have three sons and a daughter, and reside in southeast Michigan (metro Detroit).","sameAs":["https:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/","https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/dave.armstrong.798","https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/@LuxVeritatisApologetics"],"url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/author\/davearmstrong"}]}},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/36774","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/2331"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=36774"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/36774\/revisions"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/36777"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=36774"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=36774"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=36774"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}
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