{"id":37647,"date":"2019-08-28T11:09:49","date_gmt":"2019-08-28T15:09:49","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/admin.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/?p=37647"},"modified":"2019-08-28T11:09:49","modified_gmt":"2019-08-28T15:09:49","slug":"david-madison-vs-paul-and-romans-6-chapter-6","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2019\/08\/david-madison-vs-paul-and-romans-6-chapter-6.html","title":{"rendered":"David Madison vs. Paul and Romans #6: Chapter 6"},"content":{"rendered":"\n<\/head>

Baptismal Regeneration \/ Is Paul a Killjoy? \/ Paul & the Last Days<\/strong><\/p>\n

\"\"<\/p>\n

This is an installment of\u00a0my replies to a series of articles on the epistle to the Romans<\/a> (written by St. Paul) by\u00a0Dr. David Madison<\/strong>: an atheist who was a Methodist minister for nine years: with a Ph.D. in Biblical Studies from Boston University. His summary article is called,<\/span> \u201cBad Bible Theology: Paul\u2019s Letter to the Romans: Let me count the ways\u2026that Paul got it wrong\u201d<\/a> (2-26-18). He devotes a paper to each chapter. Unless he repeats himself (a bad habit of his) or descends to sheer biblical skepticism (which I have less than no<\/em> interest in), I will reply to all.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

The<\/span> introduction<\/a> is basically a catalogue of rank insults, where he calls St. Paul<\/span> \u201ca crank\u201d<\/span> and a<\/span> \u201cdelusional cult fanatic\u201d<\/span> and<\/span> \u201cthe prototype for Christian crazies\u201d and<\/span> \u201can obsessive-compulsive mediocre thinker and bad theologian\u201d and<\/span> \u201can embarrassment.\u201d\u00a0He adds:<\/span> \u201chow can anyone take this guy seriously?\u201d That about covers the \u201ccontent\u201d there.\u00a0Bears poop in the woods, brats throw fits, squirrels walk telephone lines, and the prevalent anti-theist brand of atheists insult Christians. Ho hum. What else is new?<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Thus far, I have counter-replied to \/ answered 29 of Dr. Madison\u2019s critiques, from three different series, without hearing one peep back from him as of yet (26 days\u2019 total time, starting on 8-1-19). This certainly doesn\u2019t suggest to me that he is very confident in his opinions. I know he\u2019s still alive and kicking, because I\u2019ve seen him write other<\/em> posts during this same period (example one<\/a> \/ two<\/a> \/ three<\/a>).<\/span><\/p>\n

Dr. Madison\u2019s words will be in<\/span>\u00a0blue\u00a0<\/span>below.<\/span><\/p>\n

*****<\/p>\n

Dr. Madison calls his critique of Romans chapter 6, \u201cThe New Testament Peddles an Ancient Gimmick: An old tradition of selling a product you don\u2019t have\u201d<\/a> (4-7-17).<\/span><\/p>\n

In verse 15 we find that Paul makes the point again that being \u201cunder grace\u201d grants no license to sin. Remember that Paul had advised converts to Christianity that, although they could use Old Testament law as a guide for behavior, they are free of it as a means to salvation: \u201cShould we sin because we are no longer under the law? By no means!\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

Of course<\/em> it gives no such license. Refraining from sin is the most basic and obvious message of the entire Bible. To not do so, and to do so brazenly, is the serious error of<\/span> antinomianism<\/a>.<\/p>\n

But the primary thrust of this chapter is Paul\u2019s pursuit of the gimmick (\u201cyou won\u2019t have to die\u201d) that has always prompted priests to market a product they don\u2019t have. His approach in this instance is convoluted; he garbles baptism with death, vv. 3-5: \u201cDo you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? Therefore we have been buried with him by baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his.\u201d How many readers over the centuries have been baffled by this theobabble?<\/span><\/p>\n

It\u2019s not \u201cbabble\u201d at all; it is the teaching of<\/span> baptismal regeneration<\/a>: held by the vast majority of Christians throughout history. Dr. Madison, as usual, is dumbfounded by any reference to the supernatural or sacramentalism. It\u2019s what he does. But note again (as I point out every time) that he makes no rational argument<\/em> against it. <\/span><\/p>\n

He assumes<\/em> it is absurd and ridiculous \u2014 knowing that his cheerleading fan club on his own website will agree \u2014 and merely mocks<\/em> it (\u201cgimmick\u201d<\/span> \/ \u201cconvoluted\u201d<\/span> \/\u00a0\u201ctheobabble\u201d<\/span>), which is no rational argument. If it\u2019s not a rational argument, then it proves exactly nothing<\/em>. So don\u2019t be fooled by this unworthy polemical and sophistical tactic. It\u2019s Dr. Madison who is offering the con job, not the Apostle Paul, as he falsely claims.<\/span><\/p>\n

Dr. Madison continues on for several paragraphs in the same vein, offering choice tidbits like this one:<\/span> \u201cAccording to one anonymous wit, \u2018Religion was invented when the first con man met the first fool.'\u201d Whatever. I will continue to operate in the sphere of rational and objective analysis. This<\/em>\u00a0kind of smart ass silliness is not<\/em> that. But we\u2019ll see if Dr. Madison offers us anything of substance in the rest of his critique. At least he offers the following charitable take (?) on St. Paul:<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

I really don\u2019t think that Paul was a con man\u2014there\u2019s no hint that he didn\u2019t believe what he peddled so relentlessly\u2014but he certainly mastered the role.<\/span><\/p>\n

So Paul was a sincere<\/em> nut \/ fanatic. That\u2019s the closest thing to a compliment that we will see here! He goes on to argue that Paul is a killjoy and opponent of happiness. Trying to conquer and avoid sin is, according to Dr. Madison, \u201cobsessed.\u201d He wrongly concludes:<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

How can you follow a guy who wants you to turn off happiness? He begrudgingly gave assent to couples having sex, but not quite: \u201cIt is well for a man not to touch a woman.\u201d (I Corinthians 7:1)<\/span><\/p>\n

I dealt with this claim that Paul was \u201canti-sex\u201d in my<\/span> first installment of this series<\/a>.<\/p>\n

There are gazillions of Christians today who work hard at their jobs, are devoted to family and friends, enjoy passion and sex, pursue sports and hobbies and can\u2019t wait for vacation. Turn off happiness? No thanks. And\u00a0in this context<\/i><\/b>\u00a0they believe in Jesus and try to be good people. Which is to say that they are not Paul\u2019s brand of Christian; they have no desire to be spooked by his holy rants into extreme piety.<\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cHappiness\u201d is not the supreme goal of the Christian life. The word appears only once in the entire Bible (RSV): at Lamentations 3:17 (although \u201cblessed\u201d in biblical language is a synonym of \u201chappy\u201d). The Bible refers (in terms of what may be called \u201cinterior fulfillment\u201d) to\u00a0joy<\/em><\/strong>\u00a0and peace<\/strong><\/em>\u00a0and hope<\/em><\/strong>\u00a0(in conjunction with grace and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit): which are much deeper and more fulfilling (less fleeting) things than happiness. <\/span><\/p>\n

Paul in his epistles refers to joy<\/em> 21 times<\/a>, to peace<\/em> 48 times<\/a>, and hope<\/em> 54 times<\/a>. Here are some prime examples of his sunny, optimistic outlook:<\/span><\/p>\n

Romans 5:5<\/strong>\u00a0and\u00a0<\/b>hope\u00a0does not disappoint us, because God\u2019s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit which has been given to us.<\/span><\/p>\n

Romans 15:13<\/strong>\u00a0May the God of hope fill you with all\u00a0<\/b>joy\u00a0and peace in believing, so that by the power of the Holy Spirit you may abound in hope.<\/span><\/p>\n

1 Corinthians 13:7\u00a0<\/strong>Love bears all things, believes all things,\u00a0<\/b>hopes all things, endures all things.<\/span><\/p>\n

Galatians 5:22<\/strong>\u00a0But the fruit of the Spirit is love,\u00a0<\/b>joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,<\/span><\/p>\n

Ephesians 1:18<\/strong>\u00a0having the eyes of your hearts enlightened, that you may know what is the\u00a0<\/b>hope\u00a0to which he has called you, what are the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints,<\/span><\/p>\n

Philippians 4:7\u00a0<\/strong>And the\u00a0<\/b>peace\u00a0of God, which passes all understanding, will keep your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.<\/span><\/p>\n

2 Thessalonians 2:16-17<\/strong>\u00a0Now may our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God our Father, who loved us and gave us eternal comfort and good hope through grace,\u00a0[17] comfort your hearts and establish them in every good work and word.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

2 Thessalonians 3:16<\/strong>\u00a0Now may the Lord of\u00a0<\/b>peace\u00a0himself give you\u00a0<\/b>peace\u00a0at all times in all ways. The Lord be with you all.<\/span><\/p>\n

1 Timothy 6:17<\/strong> . . .\u00a0God who richly furnishes us with everything to enjoy.<\/span><\/p><\/blockquote>\n

This is hardly the stuff of long-faced, pessimistic, doom-and-gloom puritanical killjoys (quite the contrary<\/em>!), but Dr. Madison will continue the propagandistic mythmaking and ignore passages like these as long as doing so furthers his cynical, unbelieving agenda.<\/span><\/p>\n

Why have Christian theologians fawned endlessly over Paul and his strident theology? Isn\u2019t his zealous confidence that Jesus would soon descend through the clouds a big tipoff that he was a crank? Remove that expectation, by the way, and his theology unravels. No, I guess Paul wasn\u2019t the con man. He was the fool.<\/span><\/p>\n

I dealt with this claim that Paul was \u201csure\u201d that the end was coming very soon, in my previous reply:<\/span>\u00a0Dr. David Madison vs. Jesus #3: Nature & Time of 2nd Coming<\/a>. See also my related paper:\u00a0<\/span>\u201cThe Last Days\u201d: Meaning in Hebrew, Biblical Thought.<\/a><\/p>\n

Nice try, and e for effort, but no cigar . . . The only \u201cfool\u201d here is Dr. Madison.<\/span><\/p>\n

***<\/span><\/p>\n

Photo credit:<\/strong>\u00a0St. Paul in Prison<\/em> (1627), by Rembrandt (1606-1669)<\/span> [public domain \/ Wikimedia Commons<\/a>]<\/span><\/p>\n

***<\/span><\/p>\n

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Baptismal Regeneration \/ Is Paul a Killjoy? \/ Paul & the Last Days This is an installment of\u00a0my replies to a series of articles on the epistle to the Romans (written by St. Paul) by\u00a0Dr. David Madison: an atheist who was a Methodist minister for nine years: with a Ph.D. in Biblical Studies from Boston […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2331,"featured_media":37653,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[124],"tags":[2519,1738,1043,745,635,258,2639,9137,335,9363,525,6395,6519,9360,1367,9119,648,6522,9366,9357,9369,634],"class_list":["post-37647","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-atheism-agnosticism","tag-alleged-biblical-contradictions","tag-anti-christian-bigotry","tag-anti-theism","tag-anti-theists","tag-apostle-paul","tag-atheism","tag-atheist-exegesis","tag-atheist-hermeneutics","tag-atheists","tag-bad-bible-theology-pauls-letter-to-the-romans","tag-bible-contradictions","tag-book-of-romans","tag-contradictions-in-the-bible","tag-criticism-of-paul","tag-critiques-of-christianity","tag-david-madison","tag-debunking-christianity","tag-divine-inspiration","tag-epistle-to-the-romans","tag-epoistle-to-the-romans","tag-paul","tag-st-paul"],"yoast_head":"\nDavid Madison vs. Paul and Romans #6: Chapter 6<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"Dr. David Madison, atheist and former Methodist minister, attacks St. Paul and his epistle to the Romans, chapter-by-chapter. 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Formerly a campus missionary, as a Protestant, Dave was received into the Catholic Church in February 1991, by the late, well-known catechist and theologian, Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave\u2019s articles have appeared in many influential Catholic periodicals, including \"This Rock\" (now called \"Catholic Answers Magazine\"), \"Envoy Magazine\" (Patrick Madrid), \"The Catholic Answer,\" \"The Coming Home Journal,\" \"Gilbert Magazine\" (American Chesterton Society), and \"The Latin Mass.\" He also writes a featured column for every issue of \"The Michigan Catholic\": published by the archdiocese of Detroit, and was editor for most of the apologetics tracts published by the St. Paul Street Evangelization apostolate. Dave\u2019s apologetics and writing apostolate was the subject of a feature article in the May 2002 issue of \"Envoy Magazine.\" He served as the staff moderator at the Internet discussion forum for The Coming Home Network, from 2007-2010. Dave has been interviewed on many nationally syndicated Catholic radio shows, including \"Catholic Answers Live\" (twice), \"Faith and Family Live\" (Steve Wood), \"Kresta in the Afternoon,\" \"Son Rise Morning Show,\" \"Catholic Connection\" (Teresa Tomeo), and \"The Catholics Next Door.\" His large and popular website, \"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism,\" was online from March 1997 to March 2007, and received the 1998 Catholic Website of the Year award from \"Envoy Magazine.\" His blog of the same name (now transferred to Patheos), begun in February 2004, contains more than 1,500 papers, at least 500 debates or dialogues, and over 50 distinct \"index\" web pages. Unsolicited correspondence has indicated many hundreds of conversions (or returns) to the Catholic faith as a result, by God's grace, of these writings. Dave's conversion story was published in the bestselling book \"Surprised by Truth\" (edited by Patrick Madrid; San Diego: Basilica Press, 1994). Sophia Institute Press has published six of his books: \"A Biblical Defense of Catholicism\" (Foreword by Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J., 1996 \/ 2003), \"The Catholic Verses\" (2004), \"The One-Minute Apologist\" (2007), \"Bible Proofs for Catholic Truths\" (2009), \"The Quotable Newman\" (editor: 2012), and \"Proving the Catholic Faith is Biblical\" (2015). He is co-author (with Dr. Paul Thigpen) of the inserts for \"The New Catholic Answer Bible\" (Our Sunday Visitor: 2005), and editor for \"The Wisdom of Mr. Chesterton: The Very Best Quotes, Quips, and Cracks from the Pen of G. K. Chesterton\" (Saint Benedict Press \/ TAN Books: 2009). \"100 Biblical Arguments Against Sola Scriptura\" was published by Catholic Answers in May 2012. His \"Quotable Wesley\" compilation was published by (Protestant \/ Wesleyan publisher) Beacon Hill Press in April 2014. Several of his 49 books are bestsellers in their field. Dave maintains a popular personal Facebook page, a Facebook author page, and has a Twitter account as well. He offers almost all of his books in e-book form on his own Biblical Catholicism site (http:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/), at a permanent deep discount: only $2.99 for ePub, mobi, and AZW, and $1.99 for PDF. His writing has been enthusiastically endorsed or recommended by many leading Catholic apologists, authors, and priests, including Dr. Scott Hahn, Fr. Peter M. J. Stravinskas, Marcus Grodi, Patrick Madrid, Steve Ray, Tim Staples, Devin Rose, Mike Aquilina, Al Kresta, Karl Keating, Fr. Dwight Longenecker, Brandon Vogt, Marcellino D'Ambrosio, and Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave has been happily married to his wife Judy since October 1984. They have three sons and a daughter, and reside in southeast Michigan (metro Detroit).","sameAs":["https:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/","https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/dave.armstrong.798","https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/@LuxVeritatisApologetics"],"url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/author\/davearmstrong"}]}},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/37647","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/2331"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=37647"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/37647\/revisions"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/37653"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=37647"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=37647"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=37647"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}