{"id":37674,"date":"2019-08-29T09:47:48","date_gmt":"2019-08-29T13:47:48","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/admin.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/?p=37674"},"modified":"2019-08-29T09:47:48","modified_gmt":"2019-08-29T13:47:48","slug":"david-madison-vs-paul-and-romans-7-chapter-7","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2019\/08\/david-madison-vs-paul-and-romans-7-chapter-7.html","title":{"rendered":"David Madison vs. Paul and Romans #7: Chapter 7"},"content":{"rendered":"\n<\/head>

Stock Atheist Insults \/ Flesh vs. Spirit \/ Did Paul Wallow in \u201cPersonal Torment\u201d?<\/strong><\/span><\/p>\n

\"\"<\/p>\n

This is an installment of\u00a0my replies to a series of articles on the epistle to the Romans<\/a> (written by St. Paul) by\u00a0Dr. David Madison<\/strong>: an atheist who was a Methodist minister for nine years: with a Ph.D. in Biblical Studies from Boston University. His summary article is called,<\/span> \u201cBad Bible Theology: Paul\u2019s Letter to the Romans: Let me count the ways\u2026that Paul got it wrong\u201d<\/a> (2-26-18). He devotes a paper to each chapter. Unless he repeats himself (a bad habit of his) or descends to sheer biblical skepticism (which I have less than no<\/em> interest in), I will reply to all.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

The<\/span> introduction<\/a> is basically a catalogue of rank insults, where he calls St. Paul<\/span> \u201ca crank\u201d<\/span> and a<\/span> \u201cdelusional cult fanatic\u201d<\/span> and<\/span> \u201cthe prototype for Christian crazies\u201d and<\/span> \u201can obsessive-compulsive mediocre thinker and bad theologian\u201d and<\/span> \u201can embarrassment.\u201d\u00a0He adds:<\/span> \u201chow can anyone take this guy seriously?\u201d That about covers the \u201ccontent\u201d there.\u00a0Bears poop in the woods, brats throw fits, squirrels walk telephone lines, and the prevalent anti-theist brand of atheists insult Christians. Ho hum. What else is new?<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Thus far, I have counter-replied to 31 of Dr. Madison\u2019s critiques, from three different series, without hearing one peep back from him as of yet (28 days\u2019 total time, starting on 8-1-19). This certainly doesn\u2019t suggest to me that he is very confident in his opinions. I know he\u2019s still alive and kicking, because I\u2019ve seen him write other<\/em> posts during this same period (example one<\/a> \/ two<\/a> \/ three<\/a>).<\/span><\/p>\n

Dr. Madison\u2019s words will be in<\/span>\u00a0blue\u00a0<\/span>below.<\/span><\/p>\n

*****<\/p>\n

Dr. Madison calls his critique of Romans chapter 7, \u201cGosh, Why Is THAT in the Bible?: One big chunk of the New Testament can go in the trash\u201d<\/a> (4-21-17).<\/span><\/p>\n

No, there is no such thing as a Holy Man who is privy to God\u2019s thoughts . . .\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

Really? No saints, no prophets, no apostles, and no Jesus Who is God, no fathers and doctors of the Church? What a despairing view.<\/span><\/p>\n

As any layperson who has plowed through the whole Bible will testify, there seems to be a lot that doesn\u2019t need to be there, that\u00a0shouldn\u2019t<\/b>\u00a0be there.\u00a0The common sense reaction, \u201cHow in the world is this the Word of God?\u201d applies to literally thousands of texts\u2014although many folks wouldn\u2019t say so out loud.<\/span><\/p>\n

So I guess we need a wise guy like Dr. Madison to decide what makes the cut in the Bible, rather than holy people (whose existence he has just denied) and the Church of God deciding such mundane things for us.<\/span><\/p>\n

Just how bad can some scripture be? . . . in terms of pathetic human babbling\u2014resulting in pathetic theobabble\u2014it would be pretty hard to beat Romans 7. In fact my distaste for Paul goes back to my teenage years; Bible geek though I was, I dreaded reading his clunky letters. Then in 1992 I came across British scholar A.N. Wilson\u2019s\u00a0perfect<\/i><\/b>\u00a0description of Paul: \u201cTo say that he was self-contradictory is an understatement. He was a man who was fighting himself and quarreling with himself all the time; and he managed to project the warfare in his own breast on to the Cosmos itself\u201d (Jesus<\/i>, p. 23).<\/span><\/p>\n

That explains quite a bit. Dr. Madison ran across this slop in 1992: as arrogant and assuming as his own endless trashings of the Bible, and it apparently set him on the course that ended in atheistic despair. We are what we eat. As Paul wisely stated:<\/span><\/p>\n

2 Timothy 4:3-4\u00a0<\/strong>For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own likings,\u00a0[4] and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander into myths.\u00a0<\/span><\/p><\/blockquote>\n

Dr. Madison found Wilson, Carrier, and others to satisfy his itching ears, and he has regurgitated their irrational pablum ever since (looks like).<\/span><\/p>\n

So would this be your first choice for a guy to write scripture? No. His personal torment did not result in insights about God.<\/span><\/p>\n

Yes (were it for me to select). I absolutely love St. Paul and his personality and style. He\u2019s on my short list (with Jesus, Mary, St. Augustine, St. Therese, St. Teresa of Avila, and Cardinal Newman) of people to go talk to, when I (Lord willing) get to heaven. I guess that makes me a nutty fanatic, too, huh? So be it. The so-called \u201csmart people\u201d insulted Paul from the beginning. In Athens, this is what some of the pointy-heads said about him: \u201cSome also of the Epicurean and Stoic philosophers met him. And some said, \u2018What would this babbler say?'\u201d (Acts 17:18a). The more things change, the more they stay the same.<\/span><\/p>\n

Writing Theology from the Therapist Couch<\/b><\/span><\/p>\n

Paul felt that sin was a cosmic force, and\u2014much like an aggressive cancer\u2014invades people to their very core:<\/span><\/p>\n

Exactly right. It\u2019s called original sin and concupiscence (propensity to sin). It\u2019s the easiest Christian and biblical doctrine to defend, as it is self-evident by observing any and all people.<\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cFor we know that the law is spiritual; but I am of the flesh, sold into slavery under sin. I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. Now if I do what I do not want, I agree that the law is good. But in fact it is no longer I that do it, but sin that dwells within me. For I know that nothing good dwells within me, that is, in my flesh. I can will what is right, but I cannot do it. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I do. Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I that do it, but sin that dwells within me.\u201d (7:14-20)<\/span><\/p>\n

He had super-sized internalized low self-esteem. Today we would advise therapy and even meds is some cases.<\/span><\/p>\n

Nonsense. Christians draw a stark distinction between the flesh (which means that part of fallen humanity that wars against God, and is separate from the Holy Spirit and grace; not literal<\/em> flesh) and the spirit: a common rhetorical dichotomy in Paul<\/a>: especially in Romans 8 and Galatians 5. Paul is highlighting the flesh and its fruits in this chapter, just as he will highlight (in deliberate contradistinction) the triumphant Spirit in chapter 8. <\/span><\/p>\n

It\u2019s a dramatic build-up, so to speak. He is saying here that we can\u2019t win this battle with our flesh and sinful desires, by ourselves (the heresy of Pelagianism or works-salvation). We need God\u2019s enabling grace and power (which he details in the next chapter). <\/span><\/p>\n

This is not low self-esteem; this is the reality of very flawed and frail human beings. But those who deny sin have to redefine and rationalize this sort of statement away. The way Dr. Madison does it is to classify St. Paul as a mentally ill nut and fanatic, in need of medication for his malady, rather than admit that he himself ever suffers from what Paul describes here. <\/span><\/p>\n

I think it is far more \u201cmentally ill\u201d and abnormal (not to mention prideful) to deny<\/em> that we have any sin or struggles with sin, than to openly admit the obvious<\/em>.<\/span><\/p>\n

But he was sure that the Cosmos had provided a fix for his anguish. \u201cWho will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!\u201d This is personal theism with a vengeance; Paul had horrible forebodings about a wrathful God aware of his inability to defeat sin. However, he had discovered, through his hallucinations, the magical solution: believe in the resurrection of Jesus. Verse 7: \u201cBrothers, you have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead in order that we may bear fruit for God.\u201d But did this really work for Paul? He\u2019s complaining a lot in these verses about the on-going battle: \u201cWretched man that I am!\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

Yes, it did<\/em> work, for him and for Christians generally. See Romans 8 and Paul\u2019s entire corpus. We can be sure that if Paul didn\u2019t<\/em> write this chapter about human frailty, then atheists like Dr, Madison would be saying that he is merely \u201cpie-in-the-sky\u201d and a juvenile fantasist divorced from reality of human struggles and sufferings and existential angst. But if he does<\/em> write it, we get this<\/em>\u00a0condescending, patronizing tripe. If he didn\u2019t express this aspect of the Christian life, then the cry no doubt would be that all Christians are self-righteous and \u201cholier-than-thou\u201d: folks who deny that they have any problems, who live in self-delusion. We just can\u2019t win.<\/span><\/p>\n

Now it\u2019ll be fun to see what Dr. Madison does with Romans 8. Perhaps he will say that<\/em> is unreality and pie-in-the-sky \u201cmagic.\u201d When Paul appears too \u201chappy\u201d then atheists will say he is nuts (excessive religious \u201centhusiasm\u201d etc.), but if it looks<\/em> like he is too sad<\/em>, he is a nut. See<\/em> how it works? It\u2019s Jekyll and Hyde. Paul is two-faced. We Christians are madmen no matter what we believe or express. We can never be right.<\/span><\/p>\n

Bear in mind that this outburst is made in a letter to a church he\u2019s never visited.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

So what<\/em>? We\u2019re to believe that every pen pal relationship of people who never met is invalid?<\/span><\/p>\n

From Galatians 2 we know that he didn\u2019t get along with Peter . . .\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

From Galatians 2 what we know is that he rebuked Peter one time<\/em> for behavioral hypocrisy. Big deal. The Bible says that \u201cfaithful are the wounds of a friend\u201d and \u201crebuke a wise man and he will love you.\u201d That proves nothing about any supposed ongoing difficulty. I\u2019ve rebuked my children scores of times. Does it follow that I don\u2019t \u201cget along\u201d<\/span> with them? No!: not logically, and not in actual fact. <\/span><\/p>\n

For one who thinks himself so wise (able to judge, mock, and dismiss the Bible and holy persons at the drop of a hat), Dr. Madison seems exceedingly naive and unrealistic about human relationships (in drawing such a ridiculous conclusion).<\/span><\/p>\n

His theology may have appealed to simple-minded converts, but how was he perceived\u00a0personally<\/i>? Who knows\u2014when the scroll was received, some of them may have rolled their eyes: \u201cOh no, not another letter from that insufferable dingbat.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

This is what passes for \u201crational argument\u201d in Dr. Madison\u2019s eyes . . .\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

Forgive me for resorting to a clich\u00e9, but the theology spun from Paul\u2019s tortured brain reminds me of Macbeth\u2019s bitter lament about life; the only words that don\u2019t apply to Paul\u2014darn it\u2014are \u201cthen is heard no more.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

Life\u2019s but a walking shadow, a poor player<\/span>
\nThat struts and frets his hour upon the stage<\/span>
\nAnd then is heard no more: it is a tale<\/span>
\nTold by an idiot, full of sound and fury,<\/span>
\nSignifying nothing.<\/span><\/p>\n

How melodramatic. This is self-refuting so I need not give it any further attention.<\/span><\/p>\n

***<\/span><\/p>\n

Photo credit:<\/strong>\u00a0Paul in Athens<\/em>, on Mars Hill, Anonymous (19th century German)<\/span> [public domain \/ Wikimedia Commons<\/a>]<\/span><\/p>\n

***<\/span><\/p>\n<\/body><\/html>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

Stock Atheist Insults \/ Flesh vs. Spirit \/ Did Paul Wallow in \u201cPersonal Torment\u201d? This is an installment of\u00a0my replies to a series of articles on the epistle to the Romans (written by St. Paul) by\u00a0Dr. David Madison: an atheist who was a Methodist minister for nine years: with a Ph.D. in Biblical Studies from […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2331,"featured_media":37680,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[124],"tags":[2519,1738,1043,745,635,258,2639,9137,335,9363,525,6395,6519,9360,1367,9119,648,6522,9366,9357,9369,634],"class_list":["post-37674","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-atheism-agnosticism","tag-alleged-biblical-contradictions","tag-anti-christian-bigotry","tag-anti-theism","tag-anti-theists","tag-apostle-paul","tag-atheism","tag-atheist-exegesis","tag-atheist-hermeneutics","tag-atheists","tag-bad-bible-theology-pauls-letter-to-the-romans","tag-bible-contradictions","tag-book-of-romans","tag-contradictions-in-the-bible","tag-criticism-of-paul","tag-critiques-of-christianity","tag-david-madison","tag-debunking-christianity","tag-divine-inspiration","tag-epistle-to-the-romans","tag-epoistle-to-the-romans","tag-paul","tag-st-paul"],"yoast_head":"\nDavid Madison vs. Paul and Romans #7: Chapter 7<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"Dr. David Madison, atheist and former Methodist minister, attacks St. Paul and his epistle to the Romans, chapter-by-chapter. 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Chesterton\\\" (Saint Benedict Press \/ TAN Books: 2009). \\\"100 Biblical Arguments Against Sola Scriptura\\\" was published by Catholic Answers in May 2012. His \\\"Quotable Wesley\\\" compilation was published by (Protestant \/ Wesleyan publisher) Beacon Hill Press in April 2014. Several of his 49 books are bestsellers in their field. Dave maintains a popular personal Facebook page, a Facebook author page, and has a Twitter account as well. He offers almost all of his books in e-book form on his own Biblical Catholicism site (http:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/), at a permanent deep discount: only $2.99 for ePub, mobi, and AZW, and $1.99 for PDF. His writing has been enthusiastically endorsed or recommended by many leading Catholic apologists, authors, and priests, including Dr. Scott Hahn, Fr. Peter M. J. Stravinskas, Marcus Grodi, Patrick Madrid, Steve Ray, Tim Staples, Devin Rose, Mike Aquilina, Al Kresta, Karl Keating, Fr. Dwight Longenecker, Brandon Vogt, Marcellino D'Ambrosio, and Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave has been happily married to his wife Judy since October 1984. They have three sons and a daughter, and reside in southeast Michigan (metro Detroit).\",\"sameAs\":[\"https:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/\",\"https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/dave.armstrong.798\",\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/@LuxVeritatisApologetics\"],\"url\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/author\/davearmstrong\"}]}<\/script>\n<!-- \/ Yoast SEO plugin. -->","yoast_head_json":{"title":"David Madison vs. Paul and Romans #7: Chapter 7","description":"Dr. David Madison, atheist and former Methodist minister, attacks St. Paul and his epistle to the Romans, chapter-by-chapter. 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This is one of my in-depth rebuttals of his series.","breadcrumb":{"@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2019\/08\/david-madison-vs-paul-and-romans-7-chapter-7.html#breadcrumb"},"inLanguage":"en-US","potentialAction":[{"@type":"ReadAction","target":["https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2019\/08\/david-madison-vs-paul-and-romans-7-chapter-7.html"]}]},{"@type":"BreadcrumbList","@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2019\/08\/david-madison-vs-paul-and-romans-7-chapter-7.html#breadcrumb","itemListElement":[{"@type":"ListItem","position":1,"name":"Home","item":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong"},{"@type":"ListItem","position":2,"name":"David Madison vs. Paul and Romans #7: Chapter 7"}]},{"@type":"WebSite","@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/#website","url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/","name":"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism","description":"Catholic biblical apologetics","potentialAction":[{"@type":"SearchAction","target":{"@type":"EntryPoint","urlTemplate":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/?s={search_term_string}"},"query-input":"required name=search_term_string"}],"inLanguage":"en-US"},{"@type":"Person","@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/#\/schema\/person\/471eaa20e441eca4bb1ea50393cf632e","name":"Dave Armstrong","image":{"@type":"ImageObject","inLanguage":"en-US","@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/#\/schema\/person\/image\/","url":"https:\/\/secure.gravatar.com\/avatar\/820e6db89734ae7a9e5dac8d498f5ac7?s=96&d=mm&r=g","contentUrl":"https:\/\/secure.gravatar.com\/avatar\/820e6db89734ae7a9e5dac8d498f5ac7?s=96&d=mm&r=g","caption":"Dave Armstrong"},"description":"Dave Armstrong is a Catholic author and apologist, who has been actively proclaiming and defending Christianity since 1981, and Catholicism in particular since 1991 (full-time since December 2001). Formerly a campus missionary, as a Protestant, Dave was received into the Catholic Church in February 1991, by the late, well-known catechist and theologian, Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave\u2019s articles have appeared in many influential Catholic periodicals, including \"This Rock\" (now called \"Catholic Answers Magazine\"), \"Envoy Magazine\" (Patrick Madrid), \"The Catholic Answer,\" \"The Coming Home Journal,\" \"Gilbert Magazine\" (American Chesterton Society), and \"The Latin Mass.\" He also writes a featured column for every issue of \"The Michigan Catholic\": published by the archdiocese of Detroit, and was editor for most of the apologetics tracts published by the St. Paul Street Evangelization apostolate. Dave\u2019s apologetics and writing apostolate was the subject of a feature article in the May 2002 issue of \"Envoy Magazine.\" He served as the staff moderator at the Internet discussion forum for The Coming Home Network, from 2007-2010. Dave has been interviewed on many nationally syndicated Catholic radio shows, including \"Catholic Answers Live\" (twice), \"Faith and Family Live\" (Steve Wood), \"Kresta in the Afternoon,\" \"Son Rise Morning Show,\" \"Catholic Connection\" (Teresa Tomeo), and \"The Catholics Next Door.\" His large and popular website, \"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism,\" was online from March 1997 to March 2007, and received the 1998 Catholic Website of the Year award from \"Envoy Magazine.\" His blog of the same name (now transferred to Patheos), begun in February 2004, contains more than 1,500 papers, at least 500 debates or dialogues, and over 50 distinct \"index\" web pages. Unsolicited correspondence has indicated many hundreds of conversions (or returns) to the Catholic faith as a result, by God's grace, of these writings. Dave's conversion story was published in the bestselling book \"Surprised by Truth\" (edited by Patrick Madrid; San Diego: Basilica Press, 1994). Sophia Institute Press has published six of his books: \"A Biblical Defense of Catholicism\" (Foreword by Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J., 1996 \/ 2003), \"The Catholic Verses\" (2004), \"The One-Minute Apologist\" (2007), \"Bible Proofs for Catholic Truths\" (2009), \"The Quotable Newman\" (editor: 2012), and \"Proving the Catholic Faith is Biblical\" (2015). He is co-author (with Dr. Paul Thigpen) of the inserts for \"The New Catholic Answer Bible\" (Our Sunday Visitor: 2005), and editor for \"The Wisdom of Mr. Chesterton: The Very Best Quotes, Quips, and Cracks from the Pen of G. K. Chesterton\" (Saint Benedict Press \/ TAN Books: 2009). \"100 Biblical Arguments Against Sola Scriptura\" was published by Catholic Answers in May 2012. His \"Quotable Wesley\" compilation was published by (Protestant \/ Wesleyan publisher) Beacon Hill Press in April 2014. Several of his 49 books are bestsellers in their field. Dave maintains a popular personal Facebook page, a Facebook author page, and has a Twitter account as well. He offers almost all of his books in e-book form on his own Biblical Catholicism site (http:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/), at a permanent deep discount: only $2.99 for ePub, mobi, and AZW, and $1.99 for PDF. His writing has been enthusiastically endorsed or recommended by many leading Catholic apologists, authors, and priests, including Dr. Scott Hahn, Fr. Peter M. J. Stravinskas, Marcus Grodi, Patrick Madrid, Steve Ray, Tim Staples, Devin Rose, Mike Aquilina, Al Kresta, Karl Keating, Fr. Dwight Longenecker, Brandon Vogt, Marcellino D'Ambrosio, and Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave has been happily married to his wife Judy since October 1984. They have three sons and a daughter, and reside in southeast Michigan (metro Detroit).","sameAs":["https:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/","https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/dave.armstrong.798","https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/@LuxVeritatisApologetics"],"url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/author\/davearmstrong"}]}},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/37674","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/2331"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=37674"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/37674\/revisions"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/37680"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=37674"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=37674"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=37674"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}