{"id":37743,"date":"2019-08-30T11:00:05","date_gmt":"2019-08-30T15:00:05","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/admin.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/?p=37743"},"modified":"2019-08-30T11:00:05","modified_gmt":"2019-08-30T15:00:05","slug":"david-madison-vs-paul-and-romans-9-chapter-9","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2019\/08\/david-madison-vs-paul-and-romans-9-chapter-9.html","title":{"rendered":"David Madison vs. Paul and Romans #9: Chapter 9"},"content":{"rendered":"\n<\/head>

\u201cHardening Hearts\u201d and Hebrew \u201cBlock Logic\u201d<\/strong><\/p>\n

\"\"<\/p>\n

This is an installment of\u00a0my replies to a series of articles on the epistle to the Romans<\/a> (written by St. Paul) by\u00a0Dr. David Madison<\/strong>: an atheist who was a Methodist minister for nine years: with a Ph.D. in Biblical Studies from Boston University. His summary article is called,<\/span> \u201cBad Bible Theology: Paul\u2019s Letter to the Romans: Let me count the ways\u2026that Paul got it wrong\u201d<\/a> (2-26-18). He devotes a paper to each chapter. Unless he repeats himself (a bad habit of his) or descends to sheer biblical skepticism (which I have less than no<\/em> interest in), I will reply to all.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

The<\/span> introduction<\/a> is basically a catalogue of rank insults, where he calls St. Paul<\/span> \u201ca crank\u201d<\/span> and a<\/span> \u201cdelusional cult fanatic\u201d<\/span> and<\/span> \u201cthe prototype for Christian crazies\u201d and<\/span> \u201can obsessive-compulsive mediocre thinker and bad theologian\u201d and<\/span> \u201can embarrassment.\u201d\u00a0He adds:<\/span> \u201chow can anyone take this guy seriously?\u201d That about covers the \u201ccontent\u201d there.\u00a0Bears poop in the woods, brats throw fits, squirrels walk telephone lines, and the prevalent anti-theist brand of atheists insult Christians. Ho hum. What else is new?<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Thus far, I have counter-replied to 33 of Dr. Madison\u2019s critiques, without hearing one peep back from him as of yet (29 days\u2019 total time, starting on 8-1-19). This certainly doesn\u2019t suggest to me that he is very confident in his opinions. I know he\u2019s still alive and kicking, because I\u2019ve seen him write other<\/em> posts during this same period (example one<\/a> \/ two<\/a> \/ three<\/a>).<\/span><\/p>\n

Dr. Madison\u2019s words will be in<\/span>\u00a0blue\u00a0<\/span>below.<\/span><\/p>\n

*****<\/p>\n

Dr. Madison calls his critique of Romans chapter 9, \u201cHow Did the Great Christian Swindle Begin?: It followed an old script\u2026and added its own spin\u201d<\/a> (8-4-17).<\/span><\/p>\n

Paul hits some familiar sour notes. Nothing can be allowed to minimize God\u2014especially not anything a person could do; God calls all the shots, vv. 16-18:<\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cSo it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God who shows mercy. For the scripture says to Pharaoh, \u2018I have raised you up for the very purpose of showing my power in you, so that my name may be proclaimed in all the earth.\u2019 So then he has mercy on whomever he chooses, and he hardens the heart of whomever he chooses.\u201d So God has mercy on whomever he chooses, and he\u00a0hardens the heart of whomever he chooses<\/i><\/b>.<\/span><\/p>\n

Say what? God gets the credit for making people hard-hearted? Kinda puts at least one hole in the free will argument. This reminds us of Paul\u2019s bludgeon theology found in\u00a0Romans 1<\/b>; three times there he says that God \u201cgave people up\u201d to their lusts, degraded passions and debased minds (vv. 24, 26 & 28). Also check out his chilling list of people \u201cwho deserve to die\u201d in vv. 29-31.<\/span><\/p>\n

I\u2019ve dealt with this \u201chardening\u201d motif many times. It\u2019s far more complex than Dr. Madison makes out. In a nutshell, it means (all relevant passages examined together) that people choose in their free will to rebel against God and to sin, and God allows<\/em> it. It\u2019s one of innumerable examples of biblical non-literal expression:<\/span><\/p>\n

God \u201cHardening Hearts\u201d: How Do We Interpret That?<\/a><\/p>\n

Reply to a Calvinist: Hardening of Pharaoh\u2019s Heart<\/a><\/p>\n

Madison vs. Jesus #7: God Prohibits Some Folks\u2019 Repentance?<\/a><\/p>\n

Paul anticipates that people might object to this view of God, but he offers a typical putdown, v. 20: \u201cBut who indeed are you, a human being, to argue with God? Will what is molded say to the one who molds it, \u2018Why have you made me like this?\u2019\u201d Moreover, he is convinced that God has made some people for destruction as a way to show off his wrath, v. 22: \u201cWhat if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience the objects of wrath that are made for destruction.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

But wait, it gets worse, v. 23: \u201c\u2026and what if he has done so in order to make known the riches of his glory for the objects of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory\u2014\u201c God shows wrath is order to make a nice contrast with his mercy! Then Paul boasts that he and his followers are \u201cthe objects of mercy,\u201d part of the in-crowd, v. 24: \u201c \u2026including us<\/i><\/b>\u00a0whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?\u201d And he quotes Hosea to drive home the point that his crowd \u201cshall be called the children of the living God.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

It\u2019s a difficult chapter to understand, and Calvinists have famously and wrongly used it to bolster their false theology of double predestination, but there is a perfectly acceptable and plausible non-Calvinist interpretation of it, as I have written about:<\/span>\u00a0Romans 9: Plausible Non-Calvinist Interpretation<\/a>. Here\u2019s an excerpt, from Marvin Wilson\u2019s<\/span>\u00a0Our Father Abraham<\/a><\/i>:<\/p>\n

[C]oncepts were expressed in self-contained units or blocks of thought. These blocks did not necessarily fit together in any obviously rational or harmonious pattern, particularly when one block represented the human perspective on truth and the other represented the divine. This way of thinking created a propensity for paradox, antimony, or apparent contradiction, as one block stood in tension \u2014 and often illogical relation \u2014 to the other. Hence, polarity of thought or dialectic often characterized block logic.\u201d Examples of this in practice are the alternate hardening of Pharaoh\u2019s heart by God, or by Pharaoh himself; and the reference to loving Jacob while hating Esau \u2014 both of which, significantly, are referred to often by Calvinist writers.<\/span><\/p><\/blockquote>\n

\n
Consideration of certain forms of block logic may give one the impression that divine sovereignty and human responsibility were incompatible. The Hebrews, however, sense no violation of their freedom as they accomplish God\u2019s purposes.\u201d The back and forth between human freedom and divine sovereignty is a function of block logic and the Hebrew mindset. Writers like Palmer who proudly declare that they believe what they read in spite of what they see as an apparent absurdity are ultimately viewing the Scriptures, wrongly, through their own Western lens in which they assume that all that they read is all that there is. <\/span><\/div>\n<\/blockquote>\n

Most of the rest of this critique is repetition of Dr. Madison\u2019s tired, oh-so-familiar-by-now themes that I have already dealt with, so I\u2019ll pass.<\/span><\/p>\n

***<\/span><\/p>\n

Photo credit:<\/strong>\u00a0Trial of the Apostle Paul<\/em> (1875), by\u00a0Nikolai Bodarevsky (1850-1921). It shows Paul before Herod Agrippa II flanked by his sister Berenice and Roman procurator Porcius Festus<\/span> [public domain \/ Wikimedia Commons<\/a>]<\/span><\/p>\n

***<\/span><\/p>\n<\/body><\/html>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

\u201cHardening Hearts\u201d and Hebrew \u201cBlock Logic\u201d This is an installment of\u00a0my replies to a series of articles on the epistle to the Romans (written by St. Paul) by\u00a0Dr. David Madison: an atheist who was a Methodist minister for nine years: with a Ph.D. in Biblical Studies from Boston University. His summary article is called, \u201cBad […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2331,"featured_media":37749,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[124],"tags":[2519,1738,1043,745,635,258,2639,9137,335,9363,525,6395,6519,9360,1367,9119,648,6522,9366,9369,634],"class_list":["post-37743","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-atheism-agnosticism","tag-alleged-biblical-contradictions","tag-anti-christian-bigotry","tag-anti-theism","tag-anti-theists","tag-apostle-paul","tag-atheism","tag-atheist-exegesis","tag-atheist-hermeneutics","tag-atheists","tag-bad-bible-theology-pauls-letter-to-the-romans","tag-bible-contradictions","tag-book-of-romans","tag-contradictions-in-the-bible","tag-criticism-of-paul","tag-critiques-of-christianity","tag-david-madison","tag-debunking-christianity","tag-divine-inspiration","tag-epistle-to-the-romans","tag-paul","tag-st-paul"],"yoast_head":"\nDavid Madison vs. Paul and Romans #9: Chapter 9<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"Dr. David Madison, atheist and former Methodist minister, attacks St. Paul and his epistle to the Romans, chapter-by-chapter. 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Dave\u2019s apologetics and writing apostolate was the subject of a feature article in the May 2002 issue of \\\"Envoy Magazine.\\\" He served as the staff moderator at the Internet discussion forum for The Coming Home Network, from 2007-2010. Dave has been interviewed on many nationally syndicated Catholic radio shows, including \\\"Catholic Answers Live\\\" (twice), \\\"Faith and Family Live\\\" (Steve Wood), \\\"Kresta in the Afternoon,\\\" \\\"Son Rise Morning Show,\\\" \\\"Catholic Connection\\\" (Teresa Tomeo), and \\\"The Catholics Next Door.\\\" His large and popular website, \\\"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism,\\\" was online from March 1997 to March 2007, and received the 1998 Catholic Website of the Year award from \\\"Envoy Magazine.\\\" His blog of the same name (now transferred to Patheos), begun in February 2004, contains more than 1,500 papers, at least 500 debates or dialogues, and over 50 distinct \\\"index\\\" web pages. Unsolicited correspondence has indicated many hundreds of conversions (or returns) to the Catholic faith as a result, by God's grace, of these writings. Dave's conversion story was published in the bestselling book \\\"Surprised by Truth\\\" (edited by Patrick Madrid; San Diego: Basilica Press, 1994). Sophia Institute Press has published six of his books: \\\"A Biblical Defense of Catholicism\\\" (Foreword by Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J., 1996 \/ 2003), \\\"The Catholic Verses\\\" (2004), \\\"The One-Minute Apologist\\\" (2007), \\\"Bible Proofs for Catholic Truths\\\" (2009), \\\"The Quotable Newman\\\" (editor: 2012), and \\\"Proving the Catholic Faith is Biblical\\\" (2015). He is co-author (with Dr. Paul Thigpen) of the inserts for \\\"The New Catholic Answer Bible\\\" (Our Sunday Visitor: 2005), and editor for \\\"The Wisdom of Mr. Chesterton: The Very Best Quotes, Quips, and Cracks from the Pen of G. K. Chesterton\\\" (Saint Benedict Press \/ TAN Books: 2009). \\\"100 Biblical Arguments Against Sola Scriptura\\\" was published by Catholic Answers in May 2012. His \\\"Quotable Wesley\\\" compilation was published by (Protestant \/ Wesleyan publisher) Beacon Hill Press in April 2014. Several of his 49 books are bestsellers in their field. Dave maintains a popular personal Facebook page, a Facebook author page, and has a Twitter account as well. He offers almost all of his books in e-book form on his own Biblical Catholicism site (http:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/), at a permanent deep discount: only $2.99 for ePub, mobi, and AZW, and $1.99 for PDF. His writing has been enthusiastically endorsed or recommended by many leading Catholic apologists, authors, and priests, including Dr. Scott Hahn, Fr. Peter M. J. Stravinskas, Marcus Grodi, Patrick Madrid, Steve Ray, Tim Staples, Devin Rose, Mike Aquilina, Al Kresta, Karl Keating, Fr. Dwight Longenecker, Brandon Vogt, Marcellino D'Ambrosio, and Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave has been happily married to his wife Judy since October 1984. They have three sons and a daughter, and reside in southeast Michigan (metro Detroit).\",\"sameAs\":[\"https:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/\",\"https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/dave.armstrong.798\",\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/@LuxVeritatisApologetics\"],\"url\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/author\/davearmstrong\"}]}<\/script>\n<!-- \/ Yoast SEO plugin. -->","yoast_head_json":{"title":"David Madison vs. Paul and Romans #9: Chapter 9","description":"Dr. David Madison, atheist and former Methodist minister, attacks St. Paul and his epistle to the Romans, chapter-by-chapter. 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Formerly a campus missionary, as a Protestant, Dave was received into the Catholic Church in February 1991, by the late, well-known catechist and theologian, Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave\u2019s articles have appeared in many influential Catholic periodicals, including \"This Rock\" (now called \"Catholic Answers Magazine\"), \"Envoy Magazine\" (Patrick Madrid), \"The Catholic Answer,\" \"The Coming Home Journal,\" \"Gilbert Magazine\" (American Chesterton Society), and \"The Latin Mass.\" He also writes a featured column for every issue of \"The Michigan Catholic\": published by the archdiocese of Detroit, and was editor for most of the apologetics tracts published by the St. Paul Street Evangelization apostolate. Dave\u2019s apologetics and writing apostolate was the subject of a feature article in the May 2002 issue of \"Envoy Magazine.\" He served as the staff moderator at the Internet discussion forum for The Coming Home Network, from 2007-2010. Dave has been interviewed on many nationally syndicated Catholic radio shows, including \"Catholic Answers Live\" (twice), \"Faith and Family Live\" (Steve Wood), \"Kresta in the Afternoon,\" \"Son Rise Morning Show,\" \"Catholic Connection\" (Teresa Tomeo), and \"The Catholics Next Door.\" His large and popular website, \"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism,\" was online from March 1997 to March 2007, and received the 1998 Catholic Website of the Year award from \"Envoy Magazine.\" His blog of the same name (now transferred to Patheos), begun in February 2004, contains more than 1,500 papers, at least 500 debates or dialogues, and over 50 distinct \"index\" web pages. Unsolicited correspondence has indicated many hundreds of conversions (or returns) to the Catholic faith as a result, by God's grace, of these writings. Dave's conversion story was published in the bestselling book \"Surprised by Truth\" (edited by Patrick Madrid; San Diego: Basilica Press, 1994). Sophia Institute Press has published six of his books: \"A Biblical Defense of Catholicism\" (Foreword by Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J., 1996 \/ 2003), \"The Catholic Verses\" (2004), \"The One-Minute Apologist\" (2007), \"Bible Proofs for Catholic Truths\" (2009), \"The Quotable Newman\" (editor: 2012), and \"Proving the Catholic Faith is Biblical\" (2015). He is co-author (with Dr. Paul Thigpen) of the inserts for \"The New Catholic Answer Bible\" (Our Sunday Visitor: 2005), and editor for \"The Wisdom of Mr. Chesterton: The Very Best Quotes, Quips, and Cracks from the Pen of G. K. Chesterton\" (Saint Benedict Press \/ TAN Books: 2009). \"100 Biblical Arguments Against Sola Scriptura\" was published by Catholic Answers in May 2012. His \"Quotable Wesley\" compilation was published by (Protestant \/ Wesleyan publisher) Beacon Hill Press in April 2014. Several of his 49 books are bestsellers in their field. Dave maintains a popular personal Facebook page, a Facebook author page, and has a Twitter account as well. He offers almost all of his books in e-book form on his own Biblical Catholicism site (http:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/), at a permanent deep discount: only $2.99 for ePub, mobi, and AZW, and $1.99 for PDF. His writing has been enthusiastically endorsed or recommended by many leading Catholic apologists, authors, and priests, including Dr. Scott Hahn, Fr. Peter M. J. Stravinskas, Marcus Grodi, Patrick Madrid, Steve Ray, Tim Staples, Devin Rose, Mike Aquilina, Al Kresta, Karl Keating, Fr. Dwight Longenecker, Brandon Vogt, Marcellino D'Ambrosio, and Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave has been happily married to his wife Judy since October 1984. They have three sons and a daughter, and reside in southeast Michigan (metro Detroit).","sameAs":["https:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/","https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/dave.armstrong.798","https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/@LuxVeritatisApologetics"],"url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/author\/davearmstrong"}]}},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/37743","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/2331"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=37743"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/37743\/revisions"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/37749"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=37743"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=37743"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=37743"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}