if they see him or her in an ultrasound<\/a>.<\/p>\nTherefore, pro-aborts oppose that, since it would deprive them of the profit of an abortion (and\/or sale of the baby\u2019s body parts, as the case may be).<\/span><\/p>\nIf they gave a damn about the woman, including the right to be fully informed of such a momentous procedure, just as is the case with surgical operations, then they would favor<\/em> this, being supposedly \u201cpro-choice\u201d and \u201cpro-woman.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\nBut in fact, they are neither. They are pro-abortion, so they push that option, minus the proper educational teaching, to help a woman make a truly informed choice.<\/span><\/p>\nSo she committed premeditated murder, but should face no punishment because of her mistaken but not malicious belief it was okay. I understand. If she killed her infant, on the other hand, she would spend the remainder of her life in a psychiatric hospital if she was lucky. Same with her toddler\u2026same with her grade-schooler. All of this would happen no matter what she believed \u2013 she\u2019d go to medical confinement or prison.<\/span><\/p>\nSo I\u2019m confused. Assuming you would not let a woman who killed her nine-year-old walk free because she thought it was okay\u2026what\u2019s different here? I apologize if there\u2019s something I\u2019m missing.<\/span><\/p>\nYes, that is the insane state of our present society, due to otherwise intelligent, rational people pretending that a preborn human being is not a person. I\u2019ve talked to several of them, right on this blog. Its breathtaking.<\/span><\/p>\nThere is no innate difference as to the status of \u201cchild.\u201d The only difference is the brainwashing as to the supposed non-existence of a person in the womb.<\/span><\/p>\nAre you in favor of a requirement for all women who want to get an abortion, to see an ultrasound of their baby first? [he refused to answer this]<\/span><\/p>\nWait, that isn\u2019t what I\u2019m asking, sorry. I know why society wouldn\u2019t punish her, I\u2019m asking you why you<\/em>\u00a0think she shouldn\u2019t be punished for murder but an infanticidal mother should. Since \u201cnot thinking murder is bad\u201d isn\u2019t a legal defence, what makes her different than a woman who kills her toddler? I probably didn\u2019t explain that well enough, sorry.<\/span><\/p>\nOnce I understand your position I\u2019ll be happy to explain mine. I am committed to reducing the incidence of abortion, but don\u2019t want to muddy our conversation with my opinions before I understand yours.<\/span><\/p>\nI did<\/em> explain it. If a person is ignorant of prenatal development, then they obviously might think killing this life is not murder. It\u2019s irrational, but that\u2019s how it goes with the pro-abortion positions.<\/span><\/p>\nCulpability in both legal terms and in Catholic moral theology has degrees to it: more culpable means more guilt and more punishment.<\/span><\/p>\nI assume then that a woman who kills her toddler because she genuinely believes he isn\u2019t a human being, ignorant and wrong as she is, should likewise face no punishment? Is there a difference between killing a fetus and killing a toddler?<\/span><\/p>\nSurely you understand what\u2019s confusing about declaring that a) abortion is literally murder and b) a woman who commits murder doesn\u2019t deserve punishment?<\/span><\/p>\nSociety agrees (even know-nothing pro-aborts) that a toddler is a person, so it\u2019s not an issue.<\/span><\/p>\nBut we do have actual infanticide taking place, in botched abortions. Obama has expressly defended these ghastly acts.<\/span><\/p>\nI see no confusion in the position I have staked out. It\u2019s clear that women act differently, upon receiving a proper education about their preborn children, since they overwhelmingly (I think it\u2019s about 80% of the time) opt out of an abortion upon seeing an ultrasound.<\/span><\/p>\nThis shows that ignorance<\/em> must have been a significant reason for the decision to abort. Knowledge<\/em> is the reason why they decide not<\/em> to. Therefore, we can conclude that culpability is much less in the first case.<\/span><\/p>\nI might consider relatively light punishment in the hypothetical situation of illegal abortion and a woman deciding to kill her child after\u00a0<\/em>seeing an ultrasound of it.<\/span><\/p>\nA relatively light punishment for premeditated murder, given that she can no longer use even the dubious ignorance defense?<\/span><\/p>\nMy confusion is the double standard that seems to be in play. Abortion doctors should be punished severely, but a woman who does the exact same thing to her own pregnancy walks free because she couldn\u2019t possibly have known better? Are women somehow less intellectually or morally capable to the point they aren\u2019t responsible for their own actions?<\/span><\/p>\nI\u2019ve gone through this over and over, and have explained relative culpability. There\u2019s nowhere else I can go with this.<\/span><\/p>\nIf you think you\u2019ve \u201ctrapped\u201d me, I don\u2019t agree. But the discussion is exhausted when one party simply keeps repeating himself since his answers don\u2019t seem to have been \u201cprocessed.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n\u201ccouldn\u2019t possibly have known better?\u201d<\/span><\/p>\nShe certainly could<\/em> have; but in many cases, does not in fact<\/em>. It\u2019s difficult to prosecute based on what one \u201cshould\u201d have known. It has to be based on what they did<\/em> know.<\/span><\/p>\nIf you shoot a gun into the forest and kill a person you didn\u2019t know was there<\/em>, it may be manslaughter at the most. But if you know the person is there<\/em>, it is murder 2 or murder 1.<\/span><\/p>\nAll right. Sorry if I\u2019ve caused offense. Have a good day.<\/span><\/p>\nSo we never get to hear your<\/em> side, huh:\u00a0after all that<\/em>? You claimed,<\/span> \u201cOnce I understand your position I\u2019ll be happy to explain mine.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\nNot to be overly direct, but I still don\u2019t understand your position so my original comment stands. As you point out, you\u2019ve explained it in the most clear and convincing way you can, and as I can\u2019t understand it, the fault lies with me, not you.<\/span><\/p>\nMy \u201cchoice\u201d as you see it is to be a mean, heartless bastard and chauvinist if I dare to say a woman should be punished<\/em> for killing her own child.<\/span><\/p>\nOr I can say (as I did), that she should not be punished, or only lightly (with more culpability) and you come back with,<\/span> \u201cAre women somehow less intellectually or morally capable to the point they aren\u2019t responsible for their own actions?\u201d<\/span><\/p>\nVery nice! Therefore, since my pro-life position leads me to (according to you) two equally insufficient answers to your posed \u201cdilemma,\u201d we must go to a view where the preborn child isn\u2019t a person<\/em>? Then there is no more dilemma! Women and butcher-\u201cdoctors\u201d can kill with impunity and there is no moral fault at all!<\/span><\/p>\nSome solution . . .<\/span><\/p>\nBut you can\u2019t comprehend my reasoning after all this time I\u2019ve given you (and so refuse to give me YOUR position, which I could assuredly \u201cgrill\u201d every bit as much as you have, mine). Thus, our discussion is at an end.<\/span><\/p>\nIt was at least an interesting<\/em> discussion, and quite civil (especially on this sort of topic) though it ends with nothing resolved, as all discussions on abortion always seem to do.<\/span><\/p>\n<\/body><\/html>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"An intact human person\u00a0at 6-week embryonic age (or 8-week gestational age), found in a ruptured ectopic pregnancy case. Photo by\u00a0Dr. Vilas Gayakwad, 26 February 2010 [Wikimedia Commons \/\u00a0\u00a0Creative Commons\u00a0Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 Unported\u00a0license] * * * * * This odd but interesting exchange took place in the combox for my post,\u00a0The Inquisition, Abortion, & ISIS (Connections?). […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2331,"featured_media":4176,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[81],"tags":[84,1256,1252,756,1257,1254,1255,1251,747,746,1253,1258],"class_list":["post-4175","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-life-issues","tag-abortion","tag-culpability","tag-illegal-abortion","tag-infanticide","tag-informed-consent","tag-personhood","tag-preborn-child","tag-pro-aborts","tag-pro-choice","tag-pro-life","tag-punishment-for-illegal-abortion","tag-ultrasounds"],"yoast_head":"\n
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Formerly a campus missionary, as a Protestant, Dave was received into the Catholic Church in February 1991, by the late, well-known catechist and theologian, Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave\u2019s articles have appeared in many influential Catholic periodicals, including \\\"This Rock\\\" (now called \\\"Catholic Answers Magazine\\\"), \\\"Envoy Magazine\\\" (Patrick Madrid), \\\"The Catholic Answer,\\\" \\\"The Coming Home Journal,\\\" \\\"Gilbert Magazine\\\" (American Chesterton Society), and \\\"The Latin Mass.\\\" He also writes a featured column for every issue of \\\"The Michigan Catholic\\\": published by the archdiocese of Detroit, and was editor for most of the apologetics tracts published by the St. Paul Street Evangelization apostolate. Dave\u2019s apologetics and writing apostolate was the subject of a feature article in the May 2002 issue of \\\"Envoy Magazine.\\\" He served as the staff moderator at the Internet discussion forum for The Coming Home Network, from 2007-2010. Dave has been interviewed on many nationally syndicated Catholic radio shows, including \\\"Catholic Answers Live\\\" (twice), \\\"Faith and Family Live\\\" (Steve Wood), \\\"Kresta in the Afternoon,\\\" \\\"Son Rise Morning Show,\\\" \\\"Catholic Connection\\\" (Teresa Tomeo), and \\\"The Catholics Next Door.\\\" His large and popular website, \\\"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism,\\\" was online from March 1997 to March 2007, and received the 1998 Catholic Website of the Year award from \\\"Envoy Magazine.\\\" His blog of the same name (now transferred to Patheos), begun in February 2004, contains more than 1,500 papers, at least 500 debates or dialogues, and over 50 distinct \\\"index\\\" web pages. Unsolicited correspondence has indicated many hundreds of conversions (or returns) to the Catholic faith as a result, by God's grace, of these writings. Dave's conversion story was published in the bestselling book \\\"Surprised by Truth\\\" (edited by Patrick Madrid; San Diego: Basilica Press, 1994). Sophia Institute Press has published six of his books: \\\"A Biblical Defense of Catholicism\\\" (Foreword by Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J., 1996 \/ 2003), \\\"The Catholic Verses\\\" (2004), \\\"The One-Minute Apologist\\\" (2007), \\\"Bible Proofs for Catholic Truths\\\" (2009), \\\"The Quotable Newman\\\" (editor: 2012), and \\\"Proving the Catholic Faith is Biblical\\\" (2015). He is co-author (with Dr. Paul Thigpen) of the inserts for \\\"The New Catholic Answer Bible\\\" (Our Sunday Visitor: 2005), and editor for \\\"The Wisdom of Mr. Chesterton: The Very Best Quotes, Quips, and Cracks from the Pen of G. K. Chesterton\\\" (Saint Benedict Press \/ TAN Books: 2009). \\\"100 Biblical Arguments Against Sola Scriptura\\\" was published by Catholic Answers in May 2012. His \\\"Quotable Wesley\\\" compilation was published by (Protestant \/ Wesleyan publisher) Beacon Hill Press in April 2014. Several of his 49 books are bestsellers in their field. Dave maintains a popular personal Facebook page, a Facebook author page, and has a Twitter account as well. He offers almost all of his books in e-book form on his own Biblical Catholicism site (http:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/), at a permanent deep discount: only $2.99 for ePub, mobi, and AZW, and $1.99 for PDF. His writing has been enthusiastically endorsed or recommended by many leading Catholic apologists, authors, and priests, including Dr. Scott Hahn, Fr. Peter M. J. Stravinskas, Marcus Grodi, Patrick Madrid, Steve Ray, Tim Staples, Devin Rose, Mike Aquilina, Al Kresta, Karl Keating, Fr. Dwight Longenecker, Brandon Vogt, Marcellino D'Ambrosio, and Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave has been happily married to his wife Judy since October 1984. They have three sons and a daughter, and reside in southeast Michigan (metro Detroit).\",\"sameAs\":[\"https:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/\",\"https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/dave.armstrong.798\",\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/@LuxVeritatisApologetics\"],\"url\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/author\/davearmstrong\"}]}<\/script>\n<!-- \/ Yoast SEO plugin. -->","yoast_head_json":{"title":"On Punishing Women if Abortion Became Illegal Again","description":"Women were never punished when it was illegal, as I understand it. Only the butchers who performed them were. 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Formerly a campus missionary, as a Protestant, Dave was received into the Catholic Church in February 1991, by the late, well-known catechist and theologian, Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave\u2019s articles have appeared in many influential Catholic periodicals, including \"This Rock\" (now called \"Catholic Answers Magazine\"), \"Envoy Magazine\" (Patrick Madrid), \"The Catholic Answer,\" \"The Coming Home Journal,\" \"Gilbert Magazine\" (American Chesterton Society), and \"The Latin Mass.\" He also writes a featured column for every issue of \"The Michigan Catholic\": published by the archdiocese of Detroit, and was editor for most of the apologetics tracts published by the St. Paul Street Evangelization apostolate. Dave\u2019s apologetics and writing apostolate was the subject of a feature article in the May 2002 issue of \"Envoy Magazine.\" He served as the staff moderator at the Internet discussion forum for The Coming Home Network, from 2007-2010. Dave has been interviewed on many nationally syndicated Catholic radio shows, including \"Catholic Answers Live\" (twice), \"Faith and Family Live\" (Steve Wood), \"Kresta in the Afternoon,\" \"Son Rise Morning Show,\" \"Catholic Connection\" (Teresa Tomeo), and \"The Catholics Next Door.\" His large and popular website, \"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism,\" was online from March 1997 to March 2007, and received the 1998 Catholic Website of the Year award from \"Envoy Magazine.\" His blog of the same name (now transferred to Patheos), begun in February 2004, contains more than 1,500 papers, at least 500 debates or dialogues, and over 50 distinct \"index\" web pages. Unsolicited correspondence has indicated many hundreds of conversions (or returns) to the Catholic faith as a result, by God's grace, of these writings. Dave's conversion story was published in the bestselling book \"Surprised by Truth\" (edited by Patrick Madrid; San Diego: Basilica Press, 1994). Sophia Institute Press has published six of his books: \"A Biblical Defense of Catholicism\" (Foreword by Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J., 1996 \/ 2003), \"The Catholic Verses\" (2004), \"The One-Minute Apologist\" (2007), \"Bible Proofs for Catholic Truths\" (2009), \"The Quotable Newman\" (editor: 2012), and \"Proving the Catholic Faith is Biblical\" (2015). He is co-author (with Dr. Paul Thigpen) of the inserts for \"The New Catholic Answer Bible\" (Our Sunday Visitor: 2005), and editor for \"The Wisdom of Mr. Chesterton: The Very Best Quotes, Quips, and Cracks from the Pen of G. K. Chesterton\" (Saint Benedict Press \/ TAN Books: 2009). \"100 Biblical Arguments Against Sola Scriptura\" was published by Catholic Answers in May 2012. His \"Quotable Wesley\" compilation was published by (Protestant \/ Wesleyan publisher) Beacon Hill Press in April 2014. Several of his 49 books are bestsellers in their field. Dave maintains a popular personal Facebook page, a Facebook author page, and has a Twitter account as well. He offers almost all of his books in e-book form on his own Biblical Catholicism site (http:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/), at a permanent deep discount: only $2.99 for ePub, mobi, and AZW, and $1.99 for PDF. His writing has been enthusiastically endorsed or recommended by many leading Catholic apologists, authors, and priests, including Dr. Scott Hahn, Fr. Peter M. J. Stravinskas, Marcus Grodi, Patrick Madrid, Steve Ray, Tim Staples, Devin Rose, Mike Aquilina, Al Kresta, Karl Keating, Fr. Dwight Longenecker, Brandon Vogt, Marcellino D'Ambrosio, and Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave has been happily married to his wife Judy since October 1984. 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<\/a><\/p>\n