{"id":4219,"date":"2015-10-25T19:19:45","date_gmt":"2015-10-25T23:19:45","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/admin.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/?p=4219"},"modified":"2019-04-12T14:51:51","modified_gmt":"2019-04-12T18:51:51","slug":"blind-faith-dialogue-w-an-atheist","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2015\/10\/blind-faith-dialogue-w-an-atheist.html","title":{"rendered":"Christian Blind Faith? (Dialogue with a Blind Faith Atheist)"},"content":{"rendered":"\n<\/head>
Original title:\u00a0\u201cBlind Faith\u201d (?): Dialogue with an Atheist, Challenged to Produce Any \u201cPositive\u201d Rational Evidence for Atheism (vs. Jon)<\/strong><\/div>\n
<\/div>\n
\"BlindMan'sBluff\"<\/a><\/div>\n
Blindman\u2019s Bluff at The Nephew\u2019s Soiree; photograph by Willo Hausman, from A Christmas Carol<\/em> (12-29-11)<\/span> [Flickr<\/a> \/ CC BY-ND 2.0<\/a> license]<\/div>\n
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(4-6-12)<\/div>\n
<\/div>\n
Jon is a former evangelical, now an atheist, with whom I have had cordial relations and a few amiable debates. He\u2019s been at my house in a group discussion (and probably will again), and I\u2019ve attended his atheist \/ agnostic group several times (being the main presenter once). His website is called Prove Me Wrong<\/i><\/span><\/a>. Jon\u2019s words will be in blue<\/span>. The following is a condensed version of an exchange in one of my comboxes.<\/span><\/div>\n
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* * *<\/div>\n
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Well we should get together again. So much we can talk about. Are you a science denying anti-evolutionist? Just kidding with the inflammatory language there. Does God exist? Does the Bible contain errors? Is it rational to believe Jesus rose? These are all fun topics.<\/div>\n

*<\/p>\n

How about this one: you defend atheism without running down something (or anything) else<\/i>: positive reasons for why you believe as you do. Is it possible? Will the universe self-destruct if an atheist doesn\u2019t run down Christianity and the Bible to try to shore up his view? :-)<\/span><\/p>\n

That would be a quick one though. Why don\u2019t I believe in God? Same reason I don\u2019t believe in unicorns. Because there\u2019s no compelling evidence.<\/div>\n

*<\/p>\n

What happens at that point is we start talking about evidences Christians like to offer and if I criticize them would I be breaking the rule to not run Christianity down? I\u2019m actually pretty positive about Christianity, as you probably know.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

Why have a discussion then, if you can\u2019t offer me one positive reason why anyone should be an atheist? If something is so indefensible<\/i>, it obviously isn\u2019t rational<\/i>; therefore, no rational person should ever espouse it.<\/span><\/p>\n

\n

It\u2019s just a basic rule of argumentation that I\u2019m sure you know. The burden of proof falls to the one that makes the positive assertion.Let\u2019s suppose I propose the existence of an extremely small polka dotted fish which happens to have knees, toes, and feathers. I say let\u2019s have a discussion about why you don\u2019t believe in it. Why don\u2019t you believe in it? And if you have no argument other than that I haven\u2019t provided any evidence, does that make your view indefensible and irrational?<\/p>\n<\/div>\n

Okay, so by thus implying that you have no<\/i> positive assertion about atheism to make, you concede that atheism is such that it cannot be proven at all, since it has no positive assertion: a key element of \u201cproof.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

Something that cannot be positively asserted, seems to me, to be logically reduced to mere irrationality and subjective mush. That being the case, no rational person should accept atheism; having no positive, rational proof for itself. It is only \u201cnot x<\/i>.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

Even rejecting Christianity or theism in general (for whatever 10,000 \u201creasons\u201d you can offer up) is no reason to adopt atheism (and you now describe yourself as an \u201catheist\u201d on your blog, not an agnostic, as formerly).<\/span><\/p>\n

To say, \u201cx<\/i> version of \u2018God\u2019 is nonexistent\u201d is not the same as to say \u201cno possible \u2018God\u2019 can or does exist.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

And having no reason for believing something is pure fideism: faith in faith, minus all reason. It requires far more faith and turning off one\u2019s rational faculties than Christianity ever did, as I have contended for 30 years or more . . .<\/span><\/p>\n

This is profound thinking that you give us. Imagine! All you can come up with is:<\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cI am an atheist for no reason other than that it rejects belief in imaginary things such as unicorns, goblins, dragons, and leprechauns (among which silly things are all Christian doctrines).\u201d<\/span><\/p><\/blockquote>\n

I must confess that such depths of wisdom, insight, and \u201cproof\u201d are quite beyond me. But I trust that with further enlightenment from you I can at least grasp why<\/i> any thinking person would adopt such a ridiculous worldview that amounts to merely claiming:<\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cI reject patently absurd things that clearly don\u2019t exist, but have nothing positive to offer anyone in favor of my<\/i> alleged belief-system. All I can do is spend my time running down myths.\u201d\u00a0<\/span><\/p><\/blockquote>\n

Actually I agree with you based on the way I think you are defining atheism. I can\u2019t prove there is no God with certainty, if you mean any kind of God. I don\u2019t pretend I can. When I say I\u2019m an atheist I just mean it the same way I mean I don\u2019t believe in unicorns.<\/div>\n

*<\/p>\n

I wasn\u2019t asking for that, but rather, for any<\/i> positive arguments and reasons whatsoever<\/i> . . . you have conceded that you can\u2019t even offer that<\/i>, which is quite extraordinary.<\/p>\n

I can\u2019t really prove it,. . .<\/div>\n

*<\/p>\n

Nor, apparently, give any rational evidence whatsoever<\/i> in favor of it (by your own virtual admission) . . .<\/p>\n

but I believe it anyway.<\/span><\/p>\n

Exactly! That is the very essence of a fideistic true believer: something I have never been and never will be, because I value reason far too much.<\/p>\n

Thanks very much for your honest confession that an atheist can give no reason for anyone else to be an atheist other than rejecting \u201cthe belief in leprechauns and unicorns\u201d (ho hum; big wow; yawn . . . zzzz)<\/p>\n

Rarely has a debate been so easy . . . :-)<\/p>\n

It\u2019s not fideism. It\u2019s a rational belief based on the available evidence.<\/div>\n

*<\/p>\n

It is<\/i> irrational mush, and a form of fideism.<\/p>\n

Generally it\u2019s very hard, sometimes practically impossible, to prove a universal negative. But we are still rational to reject the belief in leprechauns and unicorns. Maybe for you that means I\u2019m an agnostic, not an atheist. I have no problem with that.<\/div>\n
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* * *<\/div>\n

Just so you know, when I invoke unicorns I don\u2019t mean it in a mocking way. Is that believable? I hope so. That\u2019s actually why I invoked a fish with odd features. I want to talk about the existence or non-existence of something neither of us believe in just so I can understand what qualifies as proof of the non-existence of a thing in your mind. Unicorns imply childish belief, and I don\u2019t think belief in God is childish and I don\u2019t want to mock it. So I just want to be clear about that.<\/span><\/p>\n

Let\u2019s just say a fish with an odd feature. Say feathers. When you quote me above saying \u201cI believe it\u201d what I\u2019m saying is I believe that there is no such thing as a fish with odd feathers. How about you? Do you believe in fish with feathers? I assume no. What if someone said this made you a fideist? Because you can\u2019t prove there are no fish with feathers, right? You can\u2019t scoop all the fish out of the ocean and check. So why do you disbelieve in fish with feathers when you can\u2019t prove it?<\/span><\/p>\n

Really, explain the logical process that leads you to the conclusion that there are no feathered fish. I think the logic is not fideistic and leads you directly to the logic that leads me to belief in the non-existence of God.<\/span><\/p>\n

\n

I appreciate that you don\u2019t have a mocking intent. Neither do I. My sarcasm can get rather barbed at times, but it always has a serious polemical (socratic) intent.I believe certain things, and I have reasons for why I believe them.<\/p>\n

You can\u2019t tell me why you believe what you do (i.e., in a positive and non-negative way, as I have challenged you to do): have not yet given any positive<\/i>, pro-active rationale. All you can do is tell me what you don\u2019t<\/i> believe, and to some extent, why.<\/p>\n

You are spectacularly proving my point: that atheism is perfectly irrational and unworthy of allegiance on the same basis.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n

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Original title:\u00a0\u201cBlind Faith\u201d (?): Dialogue with an Atheist, Challenged to Produce Any \u201cPositive\u201d Rational Evidence for Atheism (vs. Jon) Blindman\u2019s Bluff at The Nephew\u2019s Soiree; photograph by Willo Hausman, from A Christmas Carol (12-29-11) [Flickr \/ CC BY-ND 2.0 license] (4-6-12) Jon is a former evangelical, now an atheist, with whom I have had cordial […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2331,"featured_media":4220,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[124],"tags":[267,258],"class_list":["post-4219","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-atheism-agnosticism","tag-agnosticism","tag-atheism"],"yoast_head":"\nChristian Blind Faith? 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Chesterton\\\" (Saint Benedict Press \/ TAN Books: 2009). \\\"100 Biblical Arguments Against Sola Scriptura\\\" was published by Catholic Answers in May 2012. His \\\"Quotable Wesley\\\" compilation was published by (Protestant \/ Wesleyan publisher) Beacon Hill Press in April 2014. Several of his 49 books are bestsellers in their field. Dave maintains a popular personal Facebook page, a Facebook author page, and has a Twitter account as well. He offers almost all of his books in e-book form on his own Biblical Catholicism site (http:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/), at a permanent deep discount: only $2.99 for ePub, mobi, and AZW, and $1.99 for PDF. His writing has been enthusiastically endorsed or recommended by many leading Catholic apologists, authors, and priests, including Dr. Scott Hahn, Fr. Peter M. J. Stravinskas, Marcus Grodi, Patrick Madrid, Steve Ray, Tim Staples, Devin Rose, Mike Aquilina, Al Kresta, Karl Keating, Fr. 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Formerly a campus missionary, as a Protestant, Dave was received into the Catholic Church in February 1991, by the late, well-known catechist and theologian, Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave\u2019s articles have appeared in many influential Catholic periodicals, including \"This Rock\" (now called \"Catholic Answers Magazine\"), \"Envoy Magazine\" (Patrick Madrid), \"The Catholic Answer,\" \"The Coming Home Journal,\" \"Gilbert Magazine\" (American Chesterton Society), and \"The Latin Mass.\" He also writes a featured column for every issue of \"The Michigan Catholic\": published by the archdiocese of Detroit, and was editor for most of the apologetics tracts published by the St. Paul Street Evangelization apostolate. Dave\u2019s apologetics and writing apostolate was the subject of a feature article in the May 2002 issue of \"Envoy Magazine.\" He served as the staff moderator at the Internet discussion forum for The Coming Home Network, from 2007-2010. Dave has been interviewed on many nationally syndicated Catholic radio shows, including \"Catholic Answers Live\" (twice), \"Faith and Family Live\" (Steve Wood), \"Kresta in the Afternoon,\" \"Son Rise Morning Show,\" \"Catholic Connection\" (Teresa Tomeo), and \"The Catholics Next Door.\" His large and popular website, \"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism,\" was online from March 1997 to March 2007, and received the 1998 Catholic Website of the Year award from \"Envoy Magazine.\" His blog of the same name (now transferred to Patheos), begun in February 2004, contains more than 1,500 papers, at least 500 debates or dialogues, and over 50 distinct \"index\" web pages. Unsolicited correspondence has indicated many hundreds of conversions (or returns) to the Catholic faith as a result, by God's grace, of these writings. Dave's conversion story was published in the bestselling book \"Surprised by Truth\" (edited by Patrick Madrid; San Diego: Basilica Press, 1994). Sophia Institute Press has published six of his books: \"A Biblical Defense of Catholicism\" (Foreword by Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J., 1996 \/ 2003), \"The Catholic Verses\" (2004), \"The One-Minute Apologist\" (2007), \"Bible Proofs for Catholic Truths\" (2009), \"The Quotable Newman\" (editor: 2012), and \"Proving the Catholic Faith is Biblical\" (2015). He is co-author (with Dr. Paul Thigpen) of the inserts for \"The New Catholic Answer Bible\" (Our Sunday Visitor: 2005), and editor for \"The Wisdom of Mr. Chesterton: The Very Best Quotes, Quips, and Cracks from the Pen of G. K. Chesterton\" (Saint Benedict Press \/ TAN Books: 2009). \"100 Biblical Arguments Against Sola Scriptura\" was published by Catholic Answers in May 2012. His \"Quotable Wesley\" compilation was published by (Protestant \/ Wesleyan publisher) Beacon Hill Press in April 2014. Several of his 49 books are bestsellers in their field. Dave maintains a popular personal Facebook page, a Facebook author page, and has a Twitter account as well. He offers almost all of his books in e-book form on his own Biblical Catholicism site (http:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/), at a permanent deep discount: only $2.99 for ePub, mobi, and AZW, and $1.99 for PDF. His writing has been enthusiastically endorsed or recommended by many leading Catholic apologists, authors, and priests, including Dr. Scott Hahn, Fr. Peter M. J. Stravinskas, Marcus Grodi, Patrick Madrid, Steve Ray, Tim Staples, Devin Rose, Mike Aquilina, Al Kresta, Karl Keating, Fr. Dwight Longenecker, Brandon Vogt, Marcellino D'Ambrosio, and Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave has been happily married to his wife Judy since October 1984. They have three sons and a daughter, and reside in southeast Michigan (metro Detroit).","sameAs":["https:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/","https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/dave.armstrong.798","https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/@LuxVeritatisApologetics"],"url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/author\/davearmstrong"}]}},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/4219","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/2331"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=4219"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/4219\/revisions"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/4220"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=4219"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=4219"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=4219"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}