{"id":4223,"date":"2015-10-26T11:23:14","date_gmt":"2015-10-26T15:23:14","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/admin.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/?p=4223"},"modified":"2017-04-27T15:52:08","modified_gmt":"2017-04-27T19:52:08","slug":"church-fathers-closer-to-protestantism","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2015\/10\/church-fathers-closer-to-protestantism.html","title":{"rendered":"Church Fathers: Closer to Protestantism Than to Catholicism?"},"content":{"rendered":"\n<\/head>
\n

\"Schaff2\"<\/a><\/p>\n

Philip Schaff (1819-1893): fair-minded and objective Protestant Church historian (photo, c. 1880)<\/span> [public domain \/ Wikipedia<\/a>]<\/p>\n

* * *<\/p>\n

Here is a chapter which wasn\u2019t included in my 2007 book,\u00a0The One-Minute Apologist<\/span>\u00a0<\/a>(probably because it had too many lists). I still think it is a handy little reference guide for this topic, which comes up often. Certainly I can at least share it here rather than waste all the work I did on it!<\/p>\n<\/div>\n

<\/div>\n
* * * * *<\/div>\n
<\/div>\n
CHURCH FATHERS<\/strong><\/div>\n
Protestantism is closer than Catholicism to the beliefs of the Church fathers\u00a0<\/span>
\nMany Catholic doctrines were only introduced centuries later and were corruptions<\/div>\n
<\/div>\n
Initial reply<\/span><\/div>\n

In fact, the exact opposite is true: the fathers as a whole were much more \u201cCatholic\u201d in their beliefs than they were some kind of primitive \u201cProtestants\u201d, and this is amply confirmed by Protestant Church historians themselves.<\/p>\n

Extensive reply<\/span><\/div>\n

Ten major \u201cdistinctively Catholic\u201d doctrines will be supported by documentation (that early Church fathers largely agreed) from the Protestant historians listed below:<\/p>\n

Bible, Church, and Tradition, not Bible Alone (<\/span>sola Scriptura<\/span>) as the rule of faith<\/span>\u00a0(Oberman, 366-367; Pelikan, 115-119, 303-304; Schaff, II: 169-72, 525-28).<\/p>\n

Organic connection of justification and sanctification, not Faith Alone (sola fide<\/span>)\u00a0<\/span>(Geisler, 85, 89, 91-93, 99, 222, 502; McGrath, 108-109, 115; Schaff, II: 588-589).<\/p>\n

Mary was a perpetual virgin, the Second Eve, and Mother of God (Theotokos<\/span>)<\/span>\u00a0(Cross, 882-83; Kelly, 491-99; Schaff, III: 409-425, 716-22)<\/p>\n

The papacy had strong, binding authority<\/span>\u00a0(Kelly, 417-21; Pelikan, 352-354; Schaff, II: 155-162, III: 299-319).<\/p>\n

Real presence (not mere symbolism) in the Eucharist<\/span>\u00a0(Cross, 475-76; Kelly, 447; Pelikan, 166-67, 236-37; Schaff, III: 492, 500).<\/p>\n

The sacrifice of the mass\u00a0<\/span>(Cross, 476, 1221; Pelikan, 146-47, 170; Schaff, III: 500).<\/p>\n

Episcopacy, or the rule of bishops<\/span>\u00a0(Cross, 176; Pelikan, 159-160; Schaff, II: 133-39).<\/p>\n

Purgatory and prayers for the dead<\/span>\u00a0(Cross, 1144-45; Schaff, II: 603-606).<\/p>\n

Baptismal regeneration (forgiveness of sins)<\/span>\u00a0(Kelly, 207-211; Pelikan, 290-92; Schaff, II: 253-54).<\/p>\n

The veneration and intercession of the saints<\/span>\u00a0(Cross, 1227-28; Kelly, 490-91; Schaff, III: 428-42)<\/p>\n

SOURCES<\/span><\/strong><\/p>\n

F. L. Cross and E. A. Livingstone, editors,\u00a0The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church<\/span>, Oxford Univ. Press, 2nd edition, 1983.<\/p>\n

Norman L. Geisler and Ralph E. MacKenzie,\u00a0Roman Catholics and Evangelicals: Agreements and Differences<\/span>, with Grand Rapids, Michigan: Baker Book House, 1995, 502, 85, 89, 91-93, 99, 222<\/p>\n

J. N. D. Kelly,\u00a0Early Christian Doctrines<\/span>, San Francisco: Harper & Row, 1978 edition.<\/p>\n

Alister McGrath,\u00a0Reformation Thought: An Introduction<\/span>, 2nd edition, Grand Rapids,\u00a0Michigan: Baker Book House, 1993.<\/p>\n

Heiko Oberman,\u00a0The Harvest of Medieval Theology<\/span>, Grand Rapids,\u00a0Michigan: Eerdmans, 1967 edition.<\/p>\n

Jaroslav Pelikan,\u00a0The Christian Tradition: A History of the Development of Doctrine<\/span>: Vol. I:\u00a0The Emergence of the Catholic Tradition (100-600)<\/span>, Chicago: Univ. of Chicago Press, 1971.<\/p>\n

Philip Schaff,\u00a0History of the Christian Church<\/span>, Vol. II:\u00a0Ante-Nicene Christianity: A.D. 100-325<\/span>, Grand Rapids,\u00a0Michigan: Eerdmans, 1970; from the 5th revised edition of 1910.<\/p>\n

Philip Schaff,\u00a0History of the Christian Church<\/span>, Vol. III:\u00a0Nicene and Post-Nicene Christianity: A.D. 311-600<\/span>, Grand Rapids,\u00a0Michigan: Eerdmans, 1974; from the 5th revised edition of 1910.<\/p>\n

\n

Objection<\/span><\/p>\n<\/div>\n

But individual church fathers can certainly be mistaken. Catholics refer to a \u201cunanimous consent\u201d which is not true to history, because you can always find exceptions among Church fathers.<\/p>\n

Reply to Objection<\/span><\/div>\n

The Catholic Church understands and recognizes this. The phrase \u201cunanimous consent\u201d does\u00a0not<\/span>\u00a0mean \u201cliterally everyone,\u201d but rather, \u201csubstantial, overwhelming agreement and consensus,\u201d such as was found, for example, with regard to the biblical canon (an example Protestants are fairly familiar with). This can be proven with historical facts, as above. Oftentimes, modern usages of a word differ from medieval usage, based on the original Latin definitions, so that some wrongly believe a contradiction is present.<\/p>\n

\n

J. N. D. Kelly and Philip Schaff (Protestant historians):<\/span><\/p>\n

Throughout the whole period Scripture and tradition ranked as complementary authorities, media different in form but coincident in content. To inquire which counted as superior or more ultimate is to pose the question in misleading terms. If Scripture was abundantly sufficient in principle, tradition was recognized as the surest clue to its interpretation, for in tradition the Church retained, as a legacy from the apostles which was embedded in all the organs of her institutional life, an unerring grasp of the real purport and meaning of the revelation to which Scripture and tradition alike bore witness.<\/p>\n

(Early Christian Doctrines<\/span>, San Francisco: Harper & Row, 1978 edition, 47-48; referring to the third century)<\/p>\n

If any one expects to find in this period [100-325], or in any of the church fathers, Augustin himself not excepted, the Protestant doctrine of justification by faith alone, . . . he will be greatly disappointed . . . Paul\u2019s doctrine of justification, except perhaps in Clement of Rome, who joins it with the doctrine of James, is left very much out of view, and awaits the age of the Reformation to be more thoroughly established and understood.<\/p>\n

(History of the Christian Church<\/span>, Vol. II: A.D. 100-325, 588-589)<\/p><\/blockquote>\n<\/body><\/html>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

Philip Schaff (1819-1893): fair-minded and objective Protestant Church historian (photo, c. 1880) [public domain \/ Wikipedia] * * * Here is a chapter which wasn\u2019t included in my 2007 book,\u00a0The One-Minute Apologist\u00a0(probably because it had too many lists). I still think it is a handy little reference guide for this topic, which comes up often. […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2331,"featured_media":4225,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[239],"tags":[240,1266,1267],"class_list":["post-4223","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-fathers-of-the-church","tag-church-fathers","tag-patristics","tag-patrology"],"yoast_head":"\nChurch Fathers: Closer to Protestantism Than to Catholicism?<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"The Church fathers were much more "Catholic" than some kind of primitive "Protestants", and this is amply confirmed by Protestant Church historians.\" \/>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<link rel=\"canonical\" href=\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2015\/10\/church-fathers-closer-to-protestantism.html\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" 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Formerly a campus missionary, as a Protestant, Dave was received into the Catholic Church in February 1991, by the late, well-known catechist and theologian, Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave\u2019s articles have appeared in many influential Catholic periodicals, including \\\"This Rock\\\" (now called \\\"Catholic Answers Magazine\\\"), \\\"Envoy Magazine\\\" (Patrick Madrid), \\\"The Catholic Answer,\\\" \\\"The Coming Home Journal,\\\" \\\"Gilbert Magazine\\\" (American Chesterton Society), and \\\"The Latin Mass.\\\" He also writes a featured column for every issue of \\\"The Michigan Catholic\\\": published by the archdiocese of Detroit, and was editor for most of the apologetics tracts published by the St. Paul Street Evangelization apostolate. Dave\u2019s apologetics and writing apostolate was the subject of a feature article in the May 2002 issue of \\\"Envoy Magazine.\\\" He served as the staff moderator at the Internet discussion forum for The Coming Home Network, from 2007-2010. Dave has been interviewed on many nationally syndicated Catholic radio shows, including \\\"Catholic Answers Live\\\" (twice), \\\"Faith and Family Live\\\" (Steve Wood), \\\"Kresta in the Afternoon,\\\" \\\"Son Rise Morning Show,\\\" \\\"Catholic Connection\\\" (Teresa Tomeo), and \\\"The Catholics Next Door.\\\" His large and popular website, \\\"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism,\\\" was online from March 1997 to March 2007, and received the 1998 Catholic Website of the Year award from \\\"Envoy Magazine.\\\" His blog of the same name (now transferred to Patheos), begun in February 2004, contains more than 1,500 papers, at least 500 debates or dialogues, and over 50 distinct \\\"index\\\" web pages. Unsolicited correspondence has indicated many hundreds of conversions (or returns) to the Catholic faith as a result, by God's grace, of these writings. Dave's conversion story was published in the bestselling book \\\"Surprised by Truth\\\" (edited by Patrick Madrid; San Diego: Basilica Press, 1994). Sophia Institute Press has published six of his books: \\\"A Biblical Defense of Catholicism\\\" (Foreword by Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J., 1996 \/ 2003), \\\"The Catholic Verses\\\" (2004), \\\"The One-Minute Apologist\\\" (2007), \\\"Bible Proofs for Catholic Truths\\\" (2009), \\\"The Quotable Newman\\\" (editor: 2012), and \\\"Proving the Catholic Faith is Biblical\\\" (2015). He is co-author (with Dr. Paul Thigpen) of the inserts for \\\"The New Catholic Answer Bible\\\" (Our Sunday Visitor: 2005), and editor for \\\"The Wisdom of Mr. Chesterton: The Very Best Quotes, Quips, and Cracks from the Pen of G. K. Chesterton\\\" (Saint Benedict Press \/ TAN Books: 2009). \\\"100 Biblical Arguments Against Sola Scriptura\\\" was published by Catholic Answers in May 2012. His \\\"Quotable Wesley\\\" compilation was published by (Protestant \/ Wesleyan publisher) Beacon Hill Press in April 2014. Several of his 49 books are bestsellers in their field. Dave maintains a popular personal Facebook page, a Facebook author page, and has a Twitter account as well. He offers almost all of his books in e-book form on his own Biblical Catholicism site (http:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/), at a permanent deep discount: only $2.99 for ePub, mobi, and AZW, and $1.99 for PDF. His writing has been enthusiastically endorsed or recommended by many leading Catholic apologists, authors, and priests, including Dr. Scott Hahn, Fr. Peter M. J. Stravinskas, Marcus Grodi, Patrick Madrid, Steve Ray, Tim Staples, Devin Rose, Mike Aquilina, Al Kresta, Karl Keating, Fr. Dwight Longenecker, Brandon Vogt, Marcellino D'Ambrosio, and Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave has been happily married to his wife Judy since October 1984. 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Formerly a campus missionary, as a Protestant, Dave was received into the Catholic Church in February 1991, by the late, well-known catechist and theologian, Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave\u2019s articles have appeared in many influential Catholic periodicals, including \"This Rock\" (now called \"Catholic Answers Magazine\"), \"Envoy Magazine\" (Patrick Madrid), \"The Catholic Answer,\" \"The Coming Home Journal,\" \"Gilbert Magazine\" (American Chesterton Society), and \"The Latin Mass.\" He also writes a featured column for every issue of \"The Michigan Catholic\": published by the archdiocese of Detroit, and was editor for most of the apologetics tracts published by the St. Paul Street Evangelization apostolate. Dave\u2019s apologetics and writing apostolate was the subject of a feature article in the May 2002 issue of \"Envoy Magazine.\" He served as the staff moderator at the Internet discussion forum for The Coming Home Network, from 2007-2010. Dave has been interviewed on many nationally syndicated Catholic radio shows, including \"Catholic Answers Live\" (twice), \"Faith and Family Live\" (Steve Wood), \"Kresta in the Afternoon,\" \"Son Rise Morning Show,\" \"Catholic Connection\" (Teresa Tomeo), and \"The Catholics Next Door.\" His large and popular website, \"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism,\" was online from March 1997 to March 2007, and received the 1998 Catholic Website of the Year award from \"Envoy Magazine.\" His blog of the same name (now transferred to Patheos), begun in February 2004, contains more than 1,500 papers, at least 500 debates or dialogues, and over 50 distinct \"index\" web pages. Unsolicited correspondence has indicated many hundreds of conversions (or returns) to the Catholic faith as a result, by God's grace, of these writings. Dave's conversion story was published in the bestselling book \"Surprised by Truth\" (edited by Patrick Madrid; San Diego: Basilica Press, 1994). Sophia Institute Press has published six of his books: \"A Biblical Defense of Catholicism\" (Foreword by Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J., 1996 \/ 2003), \"The Catholic Verses\" (2004), \"The One-Minute Apologist\" (2007), \"Bible Proofs for Catholic Truths\" (2009), \"The Quotable Newman\" (editor: 2012), and \"Proving the Catholic Faith is Biblical\" (2015). He is co-author (with Dr. Paul Thigpen) of the inserts for \"The New Catholic Answer Bible\" (Our Sunday Visitor: 2005), and editor for \"The Wisdom of Mr. Chesterton: The Very Best Quotes, Quips, and Cracks from the Pen of G. K. Chesterton\" (Saint Benedict Press \/ TAN Books: 2009). \"100 Biblical Arguments Against Sola Scriptura\" was published by Catholic Answers in May 2012. His \"Quotable Wesley\" compilation was published by (Protestant \/ Wesleyan publisher) Beacon Hill Press in April 2014. Several of his 49 books are bestsellers in their field. Dave maintains a popular personal Facebook page, a Facebook author page, and has a Twitter account as well. He offers almost all of his books in e-book form on his own Biblical Catholicism site (http:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/), at a permanent deep discount: only $2.99 for ePub, mobi, and AZW, and $1.99 for PDF. His writing has been enthusiastically endorsed or recommended by many leading Catholic apologists, authors, and priests, including Dr. Scott Hahn, Fr. Peter M. J. Stravinskas, Marcus Grodi, Patrick Madrid, Steve Ray, Tim Staples, Devin Rose, Mike Aquilina, Al Kresta, Karl Keating, Fr. Dwight Longenecker, Brandon Vogt, Marcellino D'Ambrosio, and Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave has been happily married to his wife Judy since October 1984. They have three sons and a daughter, and reside in southeast Michigan (metro Detroit).","sameAs":["https:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/","https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/dave.armstrong.798","https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/@LuxVeritatisApologetics"],"url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/author\/davearmstrong"}]}},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/4223","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/2331"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=4223"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/4223\/revisions"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/4225"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=4223"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=4223"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=4223"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}