{"id":43539,"date":"2020-01-19T12:19:12","date_gmt":"2020-01-19T16:19:12","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/admin.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/?p=43539"},"modified":"2020-01-19T12:19:12","modified_gmt":"2020-01-19T16:19:12","slug":"constructive-dialogues-w-legal-abortion-advocates","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2020\/01\/constructive-dialogues-w-legal-abortion-advocates.html","title":{"rendered":"Constructive Dialogues w Legal Abortion Advocates"},"content":{"rendered":"\n<\/head>

\"\"<\/p>\n

These far \u201cbetter than average\u201d exchanges originally took place on my blog and Facebook page: on 8-2-17 and 7-21-18. Words of my dialogue opponents will be in blue<\/span> and green<\/span>.<\/p>\n

*****<\/p>\n

I take issue with you calling us \u201cpro-aborts\u201d. I am pro-choice because I believe that only one person has the right to make that decision: the pregnant woman. Not you, nor I, nor the father, nor the government has the right to decide for her. It really is that simple. Neither I, nor any other pro-choice person I know has ever advocated for someone to have an abortion. Please, don\u2019t strawman us.<\/span><\/p>\n

Choice to do what<\/em>? What are the choices entailed?<\/p>\n

The choice in question is whether to complete the pregnancy or terminate it early. I thought that this was already understood.<\/span><\/p>\n

Of course I understand it. Now I\u2019m playing Socrates and trying to determine whether you<\/em>\u00a0do. What is entailed in terminating a pregnancy?<\/p>\n

The most common method is by pill, which basically causes the body to flush the embryo out of the body. I humored your Socratic undertaking, but would like to point out that this question is a red herring, and does not relate to who should make the decision. That still lies with the pregnant woman.<\/span><\/p>\n

Not when there is another human being involved, who is being slaughtered. That human being has a right to be allowed to continue living and developing. No one buys the arguments that it is not yet human or a person. He or she clearly is that, by virtue of DNA (and a heartbeat and brain waves by the time most abortions occur).<\/p>\n

Thanks for verifying that the Pill is indeed an abortifacient. We pro-lifers have been pointing that out for many years.<\/p>\n

You\u2019re attaching a lot of baggage to that embryo that not all of us attach. You\u2019re absolutely incorrect at saying there are not people who are not convinced that a three week old embryo is a person. The cells have human DNA, yes, but humans are the sum of their parts, which haven\u2019t developed at that stage. I\u2019m not going to argue this point with you, as I don\u2019t believe you\u2019ll debate it in good faith.<\/span><\/p>\n

I\u2019m not saying I know when personhood begins. I know you believe it begins at conception. But that\u2019s what it is: a belief. We don\u2019t have a scientific measure for personhood. There are also different philosophical arguments involved. Even if the embryo does have rights, does it trump the right of the mother\u2019s to bodily autonomy?<\/span><\/p>\n

And yes, the pill is an abortifacient, when used as such. The rest of the time, it\u2019s just contraception. The designation is a function of what it\u2019s used for at the time.<\/span><\/p>\n

I still stand by my belief that women have a right to do what ever they wish to their bodies and that no one else has the right to stop them. The only way to stop them is by force, and no one has the right to use force to coerce a woman into completing an unwanted pregnancy.<\/span><\/p>\n

The woman\u2019s child is not her body in the first place.<\/p>\n

*****<\/p>\n

Everything is in place for the child at conception to grow and become you or I. All that is needed is time and a mother who doesn\u2019t believe she owns her child and can kill him or her if she wishes. Any point other than conception for the beginning of personhood is completely arbitrary.<\/p>\n

What non-arbitrary point do we determine that a person begins, if not at conception? You tell me.<\/p>\n

I am flattered that you think I might know. To me, the transition from non-person to person is not a clear line (and pretending there is one seems like folly). If you wished to put a gun (crucifix?) to my head, and demand an answer, I would say brain activity, but I\u2019m not sure I would actually believe that strongly. A blastocyst, however, remains clearly in the set of things that are not a person.<\/span><\/p>\n

Your position of not knowing when human personhood begins, combined with support for legal abortion is akin to the absurd scenario of a hunter randomly shooting into the woods, not knowing if people are there, but having reason to believe that sometimes<\/em> they are, or at least may<\/em> be (during the time of the shooting).<\/p>\n

Rather, allow me to turn the question around. Why are you convinced that there is an absolute point of differentiation between life and non-life? Why is there (or must there be) a clear and absolute line?<\/span><\/p>\n

Because if personhood is present and we kill such a person, it\u2019s murder. Therefore, it is of the utmost importance to 1) define personhood, and 2) determine when personhood begins. Otherwise, we have the shooting into the woods scenario: not knowing when persons are present but going ahead and blasting away anyway. That\u2019 a rather strange notion of ethics and morality: \u201cwhat the hell? Just shoot [or abort], whether we know people are there or not.\u201d<\/p>\n

I guess among all the other moral outrages and ludicrosities of abortion, we can add this one.<\/p>\n

***<\/p>\n

See many more articles on the issue of pro-life on my Life Issues web page<\/a>.<\/p>\n

***<\/p>\n

Unfortunately, Money Trees Do Not Exist<\/strong>:\u00a0<\/span>If you have been aided in any way by my work, or think it is valuable and worthwhile, please strongly consider financially supporting it (even $10 \/ month \u2014 a mere 33 cents a day \u2014 would be very helpful). I have been a full-time Catholic apologist since Dec. 2001, and have been writing Christian apologetics since 1981 (see\u00a0my Resume<\/a>).\u00a0My work has been proven (by God\u2019s grace alone) to be fruitful, in terms of changing lives (see the tangible evidences\u00a0from unsolicited \u201ctestimonies\u201d<\/a>).\u00a0I have to pay my bills like all of you: and have a (homeschooling) wife and three children still at home to provide for, and a mortgage to pay.<\/div>\n
*<\/div>\n
My book royalties from\u00a0three bestsellers in the field<\/a>\u00a0(published in 2003-2007) have been decreasing, as has my overall income, making it increasingly difficult to make ends meet.\u00a0 I provide over 2600 free articles here, for the purpose of your edification and education, and have\u00a0written 50 books<\/a>.\u00a0It\u2019ll literally be a struggle to survive financially until Dec. 2020, when both my wife and I will be receiving Social Security. If you cannot contribute, I ask for your prayers (and \u201clikes\u201d and links and shares). Thanks!<\/div>\n
*<\/div>\n
See my\u00a0information on how to donate<\/a>\u00a0(including 100% tax-deductible donations). It\u2019s very simple to contribute to my apostolate via PayPal, if a tax deduction is not needed (my \u201cbusiness name\u201d there is called \u201cCatholic Used Book Service,\u201d from my old bookselling days 17 or so years ago, but send to my email: apologistdave@gmail.com). Another easy way to send and receive money (with a bank account or a mobile phone) is through\u00a0Zelle<\/a>. Again, just send to my e-mail address.\u00a0May God abundantly bless you.<\/div>\n
*<\/div>\n
***<\/div>\n
*<\/div>\n
Photo credit:<\/span>\u00a0<\/strong>Shrine of the Unborn Child<\/a>\u00a0in<\/span>\u00a0Quezon City<\/a>:\u00a0Sikatuna Village<\/a>, Philippines<\/span> [public domain \/ Wikimedia Commons<\/a>]<\/div>\n
*<\/div>\n
***<\/div>\n<\/body><\/html>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

These far \u201cbetter than average\u201d exchanges originally took place on my blog and Facebook page: on 8-2-17 and 7-21-18. Words of my dialogue opponents will be in blue and green. ***** I take issue with you calling us \u201cpro-aborts\u201d. I am pro-choice because I believe that only one person has the right to make that […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2331,"featured_media":43542,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[81],"tags":[84,5302,3390,88,3391,2092,2093,756,2076,1254,1255,5992,2088,747,746,2091],"class_list":["post-43539","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-life-issues","tag-abortion","tag-anti-abortion","tag-bible-abortion","tag-childkilling","tag-christianity-abortion","tag-fetal-development","tag-fetus","tag-infanticide","tag-murder","tag-personhood","tag-preborn-child","tag-pro-abort","tag-pro-abortion","tag-pro-choice","tag-pro-life","tag-unborn-child"],"yoast_head":"\nConstructive Dialogues w Legal Abortion Advocates<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"It's always very difficult for pro-lifers & legal abortion advocates to succeed in any 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Chesterton\\\" (Saint Benedict Press \/ TAN Books: 2009). \\\"100 Biblical Arguments Against Sola Scriptura\\\" was published by Catholic Answers in May 2012. His \\\"Quotable Wesley\\\" compilation was published by (Protestant \/ Wesleyan publisher) Beacon Hill Press in April 2014. Several of his 49 books are bestsellers in their field. Dave maintains a popular personal Facebook page, a Facebook author page, and has a Twitter account as well. He offers almost all of his books in e-book form on his own Biblical Catholicism site (http:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/), at a permanent deep discount: only $2.99 for ePub, mobi, and AZW, and $1.99 for PDF. His writing has been enthusiastically endorsed or recommended by many leading Catholic apologists, authors, and priests, including Dr. Scott Hahn, Fr. Peter M. J. Stravinskas, Marcus Grodi, Patrick Madrid, Steve Ray, Tim Staples, Devin Rose, Mike Aquilina, Al Kresta, Karl Keating, Fr. 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Formerly a campus missionary, as a Protestant, Dave was received into the Catholic Church in February 1991, by the late, well-known catechist and theologian, Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave\u2019s articles have appeared in many influential Catholic periodicals, including \"This Rock\" (now called \"Catholic Answers Magazine\"), \"Envoy Magazine\" (Patrick Madrid), \"The Catholic Answer,\" \"The Coming Home Journal,\" \"Gilbert Magazine\" (American Chesterton Society), and \"The Latin Mass.\" He also writes a featured column for every issue of \"The Michigan Catholic\": published by the archdiocese of Detroit, and was editor for most of the apologetics tracts published by the St. Paul Street Evangelization apostolate. Dave\u2019s apologetics and writing apostolate was the subject of a feature article in the May 2002 issue of \"Envoy Magazine.\" He served as the staff moderator at the Internet discussion forum for The Coming Home Network, from 2007-2010. Dave has been interviewed on many nationally syndicated Catholic radio shows, including \"Catholic Answers Live\" (twice), \"Faith and Family Live\" (Steve Wood), \"Kresta in the Afternoon,\" \"Son Rise Morning Show,\" \"Catholic Connection\" (Teresa Tomeo), and \"The Catholics Next Door.\" His large and popular website, \"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism,\" was online from March 1997 to March 2007, and received the 1998 Catholic Website of the Year award from \"Envoy Magazine.\" His blog of the same name (now transferred to Patheos), begun in February 2004, contains more than 1,500 papers, at least 500 debates or dialogues, and over 50 distinct \"index\" web pages. Unsolicited correspondence has indicated many hundreds of conversions (or returns) to the Catholic faith as a result, by God's grace, of these writings. Dave's conversion story was published in the bestselling book \"Surprised by Truth\" (edited by Patrick Madrid; San Diego: Basilica Press, 1994). Sophia Institute Press has published six of his books: \"A Biblical Defense of Catholicism\" (Foreword by Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J., 1996 \/ 2003), \"The Catholic Verses\" (2004), \"The One-Minute Apologist\" (2007), \"Bible Proofs for Catholic Truths\" (2009), \"The Quotable Newman\" (editor: 2012), and \"Proving the Catholic Faith is Biblical\" (2015). He is co-author (with Dr. Paul Thigpen) of the inserts for \"The New Catholic Answer Bible\" (Our Sunday Visitor: 2005), and editor for \"The Wisdom of Mr. Chesterton: The Very Best Quotes, Quips, and Cracks from the Pen of G. K. Chesterton\" (Saint Benedict Press \/ TAN Books: 2009). \"100 Biblical Arguments Against Sola Scriptura\" was published by Catholic Answers in May 2012. His \"Quotable Wesley\" compilation was published by (Protestant \/ Wesleyan publisher) Beacon Hill Press in April 2014. Several of his 49 books are bestsellers in their field. Dave maintains a popular personal Facebook page, a Facebook author page, and has a Twitter account as well. He offers almost all of his books in e-book form on his own Biblical Catholicism site (http:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/), at a permanent deep discount: only $2.99 for ePub, mobi, and AZW, and $1.99 for PDF. His writing has been enthusiastically endorsed or recommended by many leading Catholic apologists, authors, and priests, including Dr. Scott Hahn, Fr. Peter M. J. Stravinskas, Marcus Grodi, Patrick Madrid, Steve Ray, Tim Staples, Devin Rose, Mike Aquilina, Al Kresta, Karl Keating, Fr. Dwight Longenecker, Brandon Vogt, Marcellino D'Ambrosio, and Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave has been happily married to his wife Judy since October 1984. They have three sons and a daughter, and reside in southeast Michigan (metro Detroit).","sameAs":["https:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/","https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/dave.armstrong.798","https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/@LuxVeritatisApologetics"],"url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/author\/davearmstrong"}]}},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/43539","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/2331"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=43539"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/43539\/revisions"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/43542"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=43539"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=43539"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=43539"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}