{"id":44394,"date":"2020-02-09T17:09:18","date_gmt":"2020-02-09T21:09:18","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/admin.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/?p=44394"},"modified":"2020-02-09T17:11:32","modified_gmt":"2020-02-09T21:11:32","slug":"dialogue-is-catholic-virginity-an-anti-sex-viewpoint","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2020\/02\/dialogue-is-catholic-virginity-an-anti-sex-viewpoint.html","title":{"rendered":"Dialogue: Is Catholic Virginity an \u201cAnti-Sex\u201d Viewpoint?"},"content":{"rendered":"\n<\/head>

\"\"<\/p>\n

This came about in the combox for my post, Why Believe in Mary\u2019s perpetual Virginity?<\/a> JD Eveland<\/a>, an agnostic, with whom I\u2019ve been having amiable discussions, asked the question (his words in blue<\/span>).<\/p>\n

* * * * *<\/p>\n

Dave, I hope that you don\u2019t see this as inappropriate; I assure you that this is a serious question. (If you want to delete this, I understand; but I hope not, since it opens up a wide range of questions.) My question, in short, is why is there value and virtue associated with virginity? In almost every area of life, experience is preferable to inexperience; not with young women. There, even a little experience can devalue the person completely.<\/span><\/p>\n

It seems to me clear that the main message of the Mary stories is that sex is essentially bad, and only someone who doesn\u2019t have any experience with it at all is the ideal to be achieved. Of course, this then inevitably dooms all women who marry to be lesser things than they were earlier \u2013 they have been defiled by the very act that defines marriage. Is this really the message that the Church wants circulated? \u201cJust say no\u201d is hardly a viable strategy for sexuality in the long run.<\/span><\/p>\n

As I have explained, in order to have an incarnate God, He has to come about in a way that is not the usual reproductive method.<\/p>\n

That entails the virgin birth (\u201cwith child by the Holy Spirit\u201d rather than by a man).<\/p>\n

Perpetual virginity is an extension of the supernatural nature of the birth. If Mary had had other children, skeptical people like you, who reject the virgin birth as it is, would have more \u201cgrounds\u201d to doubt that Jesus\u2019 birth was supernatural and miraculous.<\/p>\n

I don\u2019t see how this has anything whatever to do with an \u201canti-sex\u201d message. Sexuality is only tangentially involved insofar as sex is the way that human beings are normally conceived. Since this is a miraculous conception, sex could not be involved.<\/p>\n

Your view is like arguing that a person who wants to get to the top of a hill by a method other than walking is \u201canti-walking.\u201d Does that make any sense? No . . .<\/p>\n

Now, how one gets to the virgin birth \/ perpetual virginity scenario to an imaginary position that all of this somehow is an \u201canti-sexual\u201d point of view, perhaps you can explain to me. It\u2019s not actually there. It\u2019s merely projected onto the state of affairs by those who already believe that the Church is \u201cagainst sex\u201d merely (mostly, it seems to me) because it has sensible rules (another whole discussion).<\/p>\n

It\u2019s like saying that one is \u201cagainst beer drinking\u201d because one believes that it is sensible to not drink five bottles of beer and then drive a car. Is that against beer itself or is it for<\/em><\/strong>\u00a0a sensible use of a substance that alters cognitive abilities?<\/p>\n

Now, going beyond Mary and the birth of Jesus, the biblical, Christian view of virginity is that it\u2019s a great state if\u00a0<\/strong><\/em>one is called to it. Paul teaches (1 Corinthians 7) that all should follow the calling that God gave them. If they are called to be single (which in biblical morality, means celibate), this is good, because (as he says) the single person can give undistracted attention to the Lord, whereas the married person is naturally concerned about wife or husband, too.<\/p>\n

Both states are, therefore, exalted. The consecrated virgin is considered to be \u201cmarried to the Lord\u201d. Marriage is a sacrament. It gives grace to those who are married.<\/p>\n

I have found that it\u2019s only in the Catholic Church that a single, celibate person is considered valuable, and not defined merely by the lack of a mate. Every other institution and our society (generally speaking) tend to look down upon single people as freaks, weirdos, oddballs, misfits, incomplete, inadequate, people that don\u2019t fit in.<\/p>\n

Protestants and Orthodox insist upon married clergy. Our view (Roman Rite \/ Western \/ Latin Catholicism) is that we prefer priests to be among the category of people who have totally devoted themselves to God, as consecrated virgins: a heroic sacrifice made for the sake of God. But Eastern Catholics allow and encourage married priests. This is a matter of discipline, and not dogma (thus, it could change).<\/p>\n

Again, that hasn\u2019t the slightest to do with some supposed antipathy to sex. If you want that, you have to go to ancient Gnostic views or Puritanism or Victorianism: that sort of thing.<\/p>\n

You can\u2019t find a single passage in the Bible whereby a married woman becomes \u201cdefiled\u201d by marital sexuality. It\u2019s not a sin! Extramarital sex is the sinful activity, not marital sex. There are passages about the Law that have to do with menstruation, etc., but that had to do with ritual purity: not sin. It was a symbolic thing.<\/p>\n

There is not a single passage in the Bible that states that \u201cmarital sex is evil \/ wicked \/ bad.\u201d If you\u2019re so sure that Catholicism is \u201canti-sex\u201d then surely you could produce one or more such passages. But it can\u2019t be done because they don\u2019t exist. And you ought to know that already, since you say you\u2019ve studied the Bible a lot.<\/p>\n

If you think the Bible is anti-sex, you need to read Song of Solomon, very slowly. The very relationship of God and His people is compared repeatedly to that of a groom and his bride. So how could we possibly arrive at a notion that \u201csex is bad\u201d if God chose to use a sexual relationship as a description of His relations with human beings?<\/p>\n

He would be using a sin to describe Himself, and of course, that\u2019s not possible in a Christian, biblical worldview, where God is perfectly holy and without sin.<\/p>\n

***<\/p>\n

Related Reading:<\/span><\/strong><\/p>\n

Q & A: Catholic Sexual Morality and Contraception<\/a>\u00a0[1-1-08]<\/p>\n

Virgin Birth & Perpetual Virginity: \u201cAnti-Sex\u201d?<\/a>\u00a0[5-21-14]<\/p>\n

Catholic Sexuality: A Concise Explanation & Defense<\/a> [12-29-15]<\/p>\n

Catholic Sexuality: Cordial Dialogue with an Agnostic<\/a>\u00a0[12-30-15]<\/p>\n

Natural Family Planning: Anti-Sex & Anti-Pleasure?<\/a> [1-23-17]<\/p>\n

***<\/p>\n

Unfortunately, Money Trees Do Not Exist<\/strong>:<\/span>\u00a0If you have been aided in any way by my work, or think it is valuable and worthwhile, please strongly consider financially supporting it (even $10 \/ month \u2014 a mere 33 cents a day \u2014 would be very helpful). I have been a full-time Catholic apologist since Dec. 2001, and have been writing Christian apologetics since 1981 (see\u00a0my Resume<\/a>).\u00a0My work has been proven (by God\u2019s grace alone) to be fruitful, in terms of changing lives (see the tangible evidences\u00a0from unsolicited \u201ctestimonies\u201d<\/a>).\u00a0I have to pay my bills like all of you: and have a (homeschooling) wife and two children still at home to provide for, and a mortgage to pay.<\/div>\n
*<\/div>\n
My book royalties from\u00a0three bestsellers in the field<\/a>\u00a0(published in 2003-2007) have been decreasing, as has my overall income, making it increasingly difficult to make ends meet.\u00a0 I provide over 2700 free articles here, for the purpose of your edification and education, and have\u00a0written 50 books<\/a>.\u00a0It\u2019ll literally be a struggle to survive financially until Dec. 2020, when both my wife and I will be receiving Social Security. If you cannot contribute, I ask for your prayers (and \u201clikes\u201d and links and shares). Thanks!<\/div>\n
*<\/div>\n
See my\u00a0information on how to donate<\/a>\u00a0(including 100% tax-deductible donations). It\u2019s very simple to contribute to my apostolate via PayPal, if a tax deduction is not needed (my \u201cbusiness name\u201d there is called \u201cCatholic Used Book Service,\u201d from my old bookselling days 17 or so years ago, but send to my email: apologistdave@gmail.com). Another easy way to send and receive money (with a bank account or a mobile phone) is through\u00a0Zelle<\/a>. Again, just send to my e-mail address.\u00a0May God abundantly bless you.<\/div>\n
*<\/div>\n

***<\/p>\n

(originally posted on 11-6-15)<\/p>\n

Photo credit:<\/strong>\u00a0Photo and photoshopping by Jonathan Thorne, 6-23-08<\/span> [Wikimedia Commons <\/a>\/\u00a0Creative Commons<\/a>\u00a0<\/span>Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 Unported<\/a>\u00a0license]<\/span><\/p>\n

***<\/p>\n<\/body><\/html>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

This came about in the combox for my post, Why Believe in Mary\u2019s perpetual Virginity? JD Eveland, an agnostic, with whom I\u2019ve been having amiable discussions, asked the question (his words in blue). * * * * * Dave, I hope that you don\u2019t see this as inappropriate; I assure you that this is a 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Unsolicited correspondence has indicated many hundreds of conversions (or returns) to the Catholic faith as a result, by God's grace, of these writings. Dave's conversion story was published in the bestselling book \\\"Surprised by Truth\\\" (edited by Patrick Madrid; San Diego: Basilica Press, 1994). Sophia Institute Press has published six of his books: \\\"A Biblical Defense of Catholicism\\\" (Foreword by Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J., 1996 \/ 2003), \\\"The Catholic Verses\\\" (2004), \\\"The One-Minute Apologist\\\" (2007), \\\"Bible Proofs for Catholic Truths\\\" (2009), \\\"The Quotable Newman\\\" (editor: 2012), and \\\"Proving the Catholic Faith is Biblical\\\" (2015). He is co-author (with Dr. Paul Thigpen) of the inserts for \\\"The New Catholic Answer Bible\\\" (Our Sunday Visitor: 2005), and editor for \\\"The Wisdom of Mr. Chesterton: The Very Best Quotes, Quips, and Cracks from the Pen of G. K. Chesterton\\\" (Saint Benedict Press \/ TAN Books: 2009). \\\"100 Biblical Arguments Against Sola Scriptura\\\" was published by Catholic Answers in May 2012. His \\\"Quotable Wesley\\\" compilation was published by (Protestant \/ Wesleyan publisher) Beacon Hill Press in April 2014. Several of his 49 books are bestsellers in their field. Dave maintains a popular personal Facebook page, a Facebook author page, and has a Twitter account as well. He offers almost all of his books in e-book form on his own Biblical Catholicism site (http:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/), at a permanent deep discount: only $2.99 for ePub, mobi, and AZW, and $1.99 for PDF. His writing has been enthusiastically endorsed or recommended by many leading Catholic apologists, authors, and priests, including Dr. Scott Hahn, Fr. Peter M. J. Stravinskas, Marcus Grodi, Patrick Madrid, Steve Ray, Tim Staples, Devin Rose, Mike Aquilina, Al Kresta, Karl Keating, Fr. 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Formerly a campus missionary, as a Protestant, Dave was received into the Catholic Church in February 1991, by the late, well-known catechist and theologian, Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave\u2019s articles have appeared in many influential Catholic periodicals, including \"This Rock\" (now called \"Catholic Answers Magazine\"), \"Envoy Magazine\" (Patrick Madrid), \"The Catholic Answer,\" \"The Coming Home Journal,\" \"Gilbert Magazine\" (American Chesterton Society), and \"The Latin Mass.\" He also writes a featured column for every issue of \"The Michigan Catholic\": published by the archdiocese of Detroit, and was editor for most of the apologetics tracts published by the St. Paul Street Evangelization apostolate. Dave\u2019s apologetics and writing apostolate was the subject of a feature article in the May 2002 issue of \"Envoy Magazine.\" He served as the staff moderator at the Internet discussion forum for The Coming Home Network, from 2007-2010. Dave has been interviewed on many nationally syndicated Catholic radio shows, including \"Catholic Answers Live\" (twice), \"Faith and Family Live\" (Steve Wood), \"Kresta in the Afternoon,\" \"Son Rise Morning Show,\" \"Catholic Connection\" (Teresa Tomeo), and \"The Catholics Next Door.\" His large and popular website, \"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism,\" was online from March 1997 to March 2007, and received the 1998 Catholic Website of the Year award from \"Envoy Magazine.\" His blog of the same name (now transferred to Patheos), begun in February 2004, contains more than 1,500 papers, at least 500 debates or dialogues, and over 50 distinct \"index\" web pages. Unsolicited correspondence has indicated many hundreds of conversions (or returns) to the Catholic faith as a result, by God's grace, of these writings. Dave's conversion story was published in the bestselling book \"Surprised by Truth\" (edited by Patrick Madrid; San Diego: Basilica Press, 1994). Sophia Institute Press has published six of his books: \"A Biblical Defense of Catholicism\" (Foreword by Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J., 1996 \/ 2003), \"The Catholic Verses\" (2004), \"The One-Minute Apologist\" (2007), \"Bible Proofs for Catholic Truths\" (2009), \"The Quotable Newman\" (editor: 2012), and \"Proving the Catholic Faith is Biblical\" (2015). He is co-author (with Dr. Paul Thigpen) of the inserts for \"The New Catholic Answer Bible\" (Our Sunday Visitor: 2005), and editor for \"The Wisdom of Mr. Chesterton: The Very Best Quotes, Quips, and Cracks from the Pen of G. K. Chesterton\" (Saint Benedict Press \/ TAN Books: 2009). \"100 Biblical Arguments Against Sola Scriptura\" was published by Catholic Answers in May 2012. His \"Quotable Wesley\" compilation was published by (Protestant \/ Wesleyan publisher) Beacon Hill Press in April 2014. Several of his 49 books are bestsellers in their field. Dave maintains a popular personal Facebook page, a Facebook author page, and has a Twitter account as well. He offers almost all of his books in e-book form on his own Biblical Catholicism site (http:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/), at a permanent deep discount: only $2.99 for ePub, mobi, and AZW, and $1.99 for PDF. His writing has been enthusiastically endorsed or recommended by many leading Catholic apologists, authors, and priests, including Dr. Scott Hahn, Fr. Peter M. J. Stravinskas, Marcus Grodi, Patrick Madrid, Steve Ray, Tim Staples, Devin Rose, Mike Aquilina, Al Kresta, Karl Keating, Fr. Dwight Longenecker, Brandon Vogt, Marcellino D'Ambrosio, and Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave has been happily married to his wife Judy since October 1984. They have three sons and a daughter, and reside in southeast Michigan (metro Detroit).","sameAs":["https:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/","https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/dave.armstrong.798","https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/@LuxVeritatisApologetics"],"url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/author\/davearmstrong"}]}},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/44394","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/2331"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=44394"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/44394\/revisions"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/44403"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=44394"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=44394"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=44394"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}