{"id":4461,"date":"2015-11-10T19:31:26","date_gmt":"2015-11-10T23:31:26","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/admin.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/?p=4461"},"modified":"2017-04-26T18:45:45","modified_gmt":"2017-04-26T22:45:45","slug":"dialogue-w-atheist-re-analogical-arguments","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2015\/11\/dialogue-w-atheist-re-analogical-arguments.html","title":{"rendered":"Dialogue with an Atheist Concerning Analogical Arguments"},"content":{"rendered":"\n<\/head>

\"Dialogue4\"<\/a><\/p>\n

Image by \u201cgeralt\u201d<\/span> [public domain \/ Pixabay<\/a>]<\/p>\n

* * *<\/p>\n

This took place in the combox for my post,\u00a050 Bible Passages on Purgatory & Analogous Processes<\/a>. \u201cOverlappingMagisteria\u201d<\/a> took issue with my thesis in the piece, which was almost entirely of the nature of analogical argument (even denying that it\u2019s a legitimate form of argument at all). With all due respect, I don\u2019t think he succeeded. See what you<\/em> think!<\/p>\n

Analogical arguments are some of my very favorite to use (and unfortunately they are massively misunderstood). I\u2019m a Catholic largely because of the brilliant analogical arguments used by Cardinal Newman in his 1845 classic, Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine<\/em>.\u00a0My dialogue parter\u2019s words will be in blue<\/span>.<\/p>\n

* * * * *<\/p>\n

I was interested in hearing the biblical case for purgatory, but I am sorry to say that this is an extremely poor list that tries to shoe-horn purgatory into verses that are obviously talking about something entirely different. Take the following as an example:<\/span><\/p>\n

The story of the rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31) explicitly says that the rich man is in hell and that there is a gulf that does not allow passage between it and \u201cAbraham\u2019s Bosom.\u201d How this is interpreted to purgatory, a waiting room on the way to heaven is beyond me.<\/span><\/p>\n

Or take the partial quotation provided from 2 Peter 9\u2026 which if you read the full passage makes it clear that the author is talking about the cleansing of sins in\u00a0this\u00a0<\/i>life, not in the hereafter.<\/span><\/p>\n

Obviously, time does not allow me to go through the whole list of 50, but others were similar in nature. It does not seem to me that the author could be serious with this list.<\/span><\/p>\n

You clearly have not understood the reasoning here. The whole point<\/em>\u00a0is one of analogy<\/em> (a form of argument widely misunderstood in the first place).<\/p>\n

You object that one passage had to do with \u201cthis<\/em>\u00a0life.\u201d Yes, of course<\/em><\/strong>, since that was the purpose of the paper (!): to establish massive analogy.<\/p>\n

I expressly explained all this in the introduction:<\/p>\n

\n

God often and does this sort of thing to men on earth, in His mercy (necessary for our sanctification); therefore, He can and will do the same thing after death . . .<\/p>\n

What is repeatedly described and \u201csanctioned\u201d in Holy Scripture is certainly not implausible as a continuing process after death. . . . Of particular note is the relationship between the biblical teaching of suffering in general and purgatory . . .<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n

Luke 16, as I have explained many times through the years, is not about heaven and hell, but about Sheol \/ Hades, which had two compartments in it. It is analogous to purgatory in an imperfect way (no analogy is absolutely perfect): as a third state after death besides heaven or hell.<\/p>\n

If you want more direct biblical indications of purgatory, I compiled those in a separate post<\/a>, from my first book.<\/p>\n

Thanks for the reply. As you say, the form of argument from analogy is often misunderstood. I think the reason is because it is not a particularly good type of argument. One can shoehorn just about anything into an analogy and then explain away the inconsistencies with \u201cno analogy is absolutely perfect\u201d as you did.<\/span><\/p>\n

This life is not eternal, so could we say that, by analogy, neither is the next? This life has evil and injustice, so by analogy, so does the next? In this life we have physical bodies and also in the next? We could accept each of those if we were motivated to do so, or write them off as \u201cimperfections\u201d in the analogy.<\/span><\/p>\n

I suppose I expected to see places where the Bible actually talks about purgatory, but instead got descriptions of this life, or Sheol, and the assumption that things will be similar in some ways (but disregard the ways which defeat the argument!) in the hereafter. Color me unconvinced.<\/span><\/p>\n

Analogy is a great form of argument. The Bible massively uses it, in types and shadows and prototypes (John the Baptist was the new Elijah; Jesus was the son of David, etc.). The parables are based on analogies. Wisdom literature (Job, Psalms, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Song of Solomon) also massively uses it.<\/p>\n

For Christians (and Jews), who accept the inspiration of God\u2019s revelation: the Bible, this is a major way that God sought to teach us. Thus, it is just as effective in looking for analogies to purgatory.<\/p>\n

I think the argument is quite strong.<\/p>\n

Again, direct proof<\/em>\u00a0was not the purpose<\/em> of this argument. I gave you a link to my paper where I did that. Something tells me, however, that you\u2019ll be singularly unimpressed with that as well.<\/p>\n

\u201cIn this life we have physical bodies and also in the next?\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

Yes, we do. That\u2019s what is called the general resurrection. If we\u2019re operating within a Christian \/ biblical paradigm, my argument makes perfect sense.<\/p>\n

You appear to be an atheist or agnostic; in reading several of your comments. Is that true?<\/p>\n

Analogy is perfectly fine as an illustrative teaching aid, but not as an argument. It\u2019s one thing to say, for example, that you gotta be prepared for the kingdom of heaven, like ten virgins bringing lamps to meet a bridegroom. It\u2019s quite another to do the reverse: to assume a passage must be talking about purgatory through analogy and then argue from there. If there had been a passage that said something like \u201cPurgatory exists and its kind of like how God punishes people on earth,\u201d then you\u2019d have a case and that would be a good illustrative analogy. <\/span><\/p>\n

That\u2019s not an analogical argument at all. It would be a self-understood factual statement [within the biblical paradigm] that happened to include a [non-essential as to its factuality] analogy within itself.<\/span><\/p>\n

But \u201cGod punishes people on earth, therefore there is purgatory,\u201d doesn\u2019t quite work as an argument. (Just like my examples on mortality, evil, and justice in the afterlife don\u2019t work. You caught me on the physical bodies one!)<\/span><\/p>\n

I\u2019ll check out the article you posted when I get a chance. Thanks.<\/span><\/p>\n

Once again, you have misunderstood how I construed my own argument. I stated it quite explicitly: \u201cWhat is repeatedly described and \u201csanctioned\u201d in Holy Scripture is certainly not implausible as a continuing process after death.\u201d<\/p>\n

Like all\u00a0arguments from analogy, it is one of plausibility, not one of intended \u201cabsolute proof.\u201d In fact, I think all the arguments for God are of the same nature.<\/p>\n

I also think you are dead-wrong as to whether analogy is a proper argument or not. The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy<\/em>\u00a0strongly disagrees with you. In its article,
\n\u201cAnalogy and Analogical Reasoning\u201d<\/a> it states:<\/p>\n

\n

. . . such arguments belong in the category of inductive reasoning, since their conclusions do not follow with certainty but are only supported with varying degrees of strength.<\/p>\n

. . . Analogical reasoning is fundamental to human thought . . . Historically, analogical reasoning has played an important, but sometimes mysterious, role in a wide range of problem-solving contexts. The explicit use of analogical arguments, since antiquity, has been a distinctive feature of scientific, philosophical and legal reasoning.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n

I asked you if you were an atheist or agnostic.<\/span><\/p>\n

[stony silence]<\/p>\n

Since my question wasn\u2019t answered, I had to waste 20 minutes of my time rummaging through OM\u2019s comments (because I think it is only fair to know where a person is coming from, when one is dialoguing with them). As suspected, he\u2019s an atheist<\/a>:<\/p>\n

\n

As an atheist, what am I doing wrong?<\/span><\/p>\n

Presumably, since I don\u2019t believe in God, I have no reason to believe that humans have value. And yet I do. I must be a bad atheist.<\/span><\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n

***<\/p>\n<\/body><\/html>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

Image by \u201cgeralt\u201d [public domain \/ Pixabay] * * * This took place in the combox for my post,\u00a050 Bible Passages on Purgatory & Analogous Processes. \u201cOverlappingMagisteria\u201d took issue with my thesis in the piece, which was almost entirely of the nature of analogical argument (even denying that it\u2019s a legitimate form of argument at […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2331,"featured_media":4462,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[3,112],"tags":[1414,1415],"class_list":["post-4461","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-catholic-apologetics","category-philosophy-science","tag-analogical-arguments","tag-argument-from-analogy"],"yoast_head":"\nDialogue with an Atheist Concerning Analogical Arguments<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"An atheist took issue with my thesis in a paper, which was almost entirely analogical arguments. 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Formerly a campus missionary, as a Protestant, Dave was received into the Catholic Church in February 1991, by the late, well-known catechist and theologian, Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave\u2019s articles have appeared in many influential Catholic periodicals, including \\\"This Rock\\\" (now called \\\"Catholic Answers Magazine\\\"), \\\"Envoy Magazine\\\" (Patrick Madrid), \\\"The Catholic Answer,\\\" \\\"The Coming Home Journal,\\\" \\\"Gilbert Magazine\\\" (American Chesterton Society), and \\\"The Latin Mass.\\\" He also writes a featured column for every issue of \\\"The Michigan Catholic\\\": published by the archdiocese of Detroit, and was editor for most of the apologetics tracts published by the St. Paul Street Evangelization apostolate. Dave\u2019s apologetics and writing apostolate was the subject of a feature article in the May 2002 issue of \\\"Envoy Magazine.\\\" He served as the staff moderator at the Internet discussion forum for The Coming Home Network, from 2007-2010. Dave has been interviewed on many nationally syndicated Catholic radio shows, including \\\"Catholic Answers Live\\\" (twice), \\\"Faith and Family Live\\\" (Steve Wood), \\\"Kresta in the Afternoon,\\\" \\\"Son Rise Morning Show,\\\" \\\"Catholic Connection\\\" (Teresa Tomeo), and \\\"The Catholics Next Door.\\\" His large and popular website, \\\"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism,\\\" was online from March 1997 to March 2007, and received the 1998 Catholic Website of the Year award from \\\"Envoy Magazine.\\\" His blog of the same name (now transferred to Patheos), begun in February 2004, contains more than 1,500 papers, at least 500 debates or dialogues, and over 50 distinct \\\"index\\\" web pages. Unsolicited correspondence has indicated many hundreds of conversions (or returns) to the Catholic faith as a result, by God's grace, of these writings. Dave's conversion story was published in the bestselling book \\\"Surprised by Truth\\\" (edited by Patrick Madrid; San Diego: Basilica Press, 1994). Sophia Institute Press has published six of his books: \\\"A Biblical Defense of Catholicism\\\" (Foreword by Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J., 1996 \/ 2003), \\\"The Catholic Verses\\\" (2004), \\\"The One-Minute Apologist\\\" (2007), \\\"Bible Proofs for Catholic Truths\\\" (2009), \\\"The Quotable Newman\\\" (editor: 2012), and \\\"Proving the Catholic Faith is Biblical\\\" (2015). He is co-author (with Dr. Paul Thigpen) of the inserts for \\\"The New Catholic Answer Bible\\\" (Our Sunday Visitor: 2005), and editor for \\\"The Wisdom of Mr. Chesterton: The Very Best Quotes, Quips, and Cracks from the Pen of G. K. Chesterton\\\" (Saint Benedict Press \/ TAN Books: 2009). \\\"100 Biblical Arguments Against Sola Scriptura\\\" was published by Catholic Answers in May 2012. His \\\"Quotable Wesley\\\" compilation was published by (Protestant \/ Wesleyan publisher) Beacon Hill Press in April 2014. Several of his 49 books are bestsellers in their field. Dave maintains a popular personal Facebook page, a Facebook author page, and has a Twitter account as well. He offers almost all of his books in e-book form on his own Biblical Catholicism site (http:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/), at a permanent deep discount: only $2.99 for ePub, mobi, and AZW, and $1.99 for PDF. His writing has been enthusiastically endorsed or recommended by many leading Catholic apologists, authors, and priests, including Dr. Scott Hahn, Fr. Peter M. J. Stravinskas, Marcus Grodi, Patrick Madrid, Steve Ray, Tim Staples, Devin Rose, Mike Aquilina, Al Kresta, Karl Keating, Fr. Dwight Longenecker, Brandon Vogt, Marcellino D'Ambrosio, and Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave has been happily married to his wife Judy since October 1984. They have three sons and a daughter, and reside in southeast Michigan (metro Detroit).\",\"sameAs\":[\"https:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/\",\"https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/dave.armstrong.798\",\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/@LuxVeritatisApologetics\"],\"url\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/author\/davearmstrong\"}]}<\/script>\n<!-- \/ Yoast SEO plugin. -->","yoast_head_json":{"title":"Dialogue with an Atheist Concerning Analogical Arguments","description":"An atheist took issue with my thesis in a paper, which was almost entirely analogical arguments. 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Formerly a campus missionary, as a Protestant, Dave was received into the Catholic Church in February 1991, by the late, well-known catechist and theologian, Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave\u2019s articles have appeared in many influential Catholic periodicals, including \"This Rock\" (now called \"Catholic Answers Magazine\"), \"Envoy Magazine\" (Patrick Madrid), \"The Catholic Answer,\" \"The Coming Home Journal,\" \"Gilbert Magazine\" (American Chesterton Society), and \"The Latin Mass.\" He also writes a featured column for every issue of \"The Michigan Catholic\": published by the archdiocese of Detroit, and was editor for most of the apologetics tracts published by the St. Paul Street Evangelization apostolate. Dave\u2019s apologetics and writing apostolate was the subject of a feature article in the May 2002 issue of \"Envoy Magazine.\" He served as the staff moderator at the Internet discussion forum for The Coming Home Network, from 2007-2010. Dave has been interviewed on many nationally syndicated Catholic radio shows, including \"Catholic Answers Live\" (twice), \"Faith and Family Live\" (Steve Wood), \"Kresta in the Afternoon,\" \"Son Rise Morning Show,\" \"Catholic Connection\" (Teresa Tomeo), and \"The Catholics Next Door.\" His large and popular website, \"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism,\" was online from March 1997 to March 2007, and received the 1998 Catholic Website of the Year award from \"Envoy Magazine.\" His blog of the same name (now transferred to Patheos), begun in February 2004, contains more than 1,500 papers, at least 500 debates or dialogues, and over 50 distinct \"index\" web pages. Unsolicited correspondence has indicated many hundreds of conversions (or returns) to the Catholic faith as a result, by God's grace, of these writings. Dave's conversion story was published in the bestselling book \"Surprised by Truth\" (edited by Patrick Madrid; San Diego: Basilica Press, 1994). Sophia Institute Press has published six of his books: \"A Biblical Defense of Catholicism\" (Foreword by Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J., 1996 \/ 2003), \"The Catholic Verses\" (2004), \"The One-Minute Apologist\" (2007), \"Bible Proofs for Catholic Truths\" (2009), \"The Quotable Newman\" (editor: 2012), and \"Proving the Catholic Faith is Biblical\" (2015). He is co-author (with Dr. Paul Thigpen) of the inserts for \"The New Catholic Answer Bible\" (Our Sunday Visitor: 2005), and editor for \"The Wisdom of Mr. Chesterton: The Very Best Quotes, Quips, and Cracks from the Pen of G. K. Chesterton\" (Saint Benedict Press \/ TAN Books: 2009). \"100 Biblical Arguments Against Sola Scriptura\" was published by Catholic Answers in May 2012. His \"Quotable Wesley\" compilation was published by (Protestant \/ Wesleyan publisher) Beacon Hill Press in April 2014. Several of his 49 books are bestsellers in their field. Dave maintains a popular personal Facebook page, a Facebook author page, and has a Twitter account as well. He offers almost all of his books in e-book form on his own Biblical Catholicism site (http:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/), at a permanent deep discount: only $2.99 for ePub, mobi, and AZW, and $1.99 for PDF. His writing has been enthusiastically endorsed or recommended by many leading Catholic apologists, authors, and priests, including Dr. Scott Hahn, Fr. Peter M. J. Stravinskas, Marcus Grodi, Patrick Madrid, Steve Ray, Tim Staples, Devin Rose, Mike Aquilina, Al Kresta, Karl Keating, Fr. Dwight Longenecker, Brandon Vogt, Marcellino D'Ambrosio, and Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave has been happily married to his wife Judy since October 1984. They have three sons and a daughter, and reside in southeast Michigan (metro Detroit).","sameAs":["https:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/","https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/dave.armstrong.798","https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/@LuxVeritatisApologetics"],"url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/author\/davearmstrong"}]}},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/4461","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/2331"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=4461"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/4461\/revisions"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/4462"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=4461"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=4461"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=4461"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}