{"id":45251,"date":"2020-03-05T16:53:58","date_gmt":"2020-03-05T20:53:58","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/admin.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/?p=45251"},"modified":"2020-03-05T16:53:58","modified_gmt":"2020-03-05T20:53:58","slug":"blessed-virgin-mary-will-soon-be-promoted-to-godhood","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2020\/03\/blessed-virgin-mary-will-soon-be-promoted-to-godhood.html","title":{"rendered":"Blessed Virgin Mary Will Soon be Promoted to Godhood?"},"content":{"rendered":"\n<\/head>

vs. Douglas Wilson<\/strong><\/p>\n

\"\"<\/p>\n

Lately, with the much-ballyhooed debate<\/a> between two Reformed Protestants: Douglas Wilson<\/a> and Bishop<\/a> \u201cDr.\u201d [???<\/a>] James White<\/a>, concerning whether Catholics are Christians or not, renewed discussion on the legitimacy of Catholic baptism (and thus, no need for rebaptism of a convert to Protestantism) has arisen in Protestant (particularly, Reformed) circles. Wilson says Catholic baptism is valid, while White denies it (but of course, White is a\u00a0Baptist<\/i>, so he would deny the validity of\u00a0all<\/i>\u00a0infant baptism, including all Reformed and other Protestant varieties).<\/p>\n

Wilson thus asserts that Catholics are part of the \u201cCovenant community\u201d and therefore, \u201cbrethren in Christ,\u201d while White denies that also. Both men try to enlist the \u201cReformers\u201d in support of their positions (I believe Wilson is backed-up to a greater degree by the historical facts than White is, in this regard).<\/p>\n

What interests me the most, however (as an ecumenical Catholic and opposer of anti-Catholicism) is how\u00a0little<\/i>\u00a0(not how\u00a0much<\/i>) the more \u201cecumenical\u201d side is willing to grant to the Catholic Church. So we are \u201cbrethren in Christ\u201d and can be called \u201cChristians.\u201d That\u2019s surely worth\u00a0something<\/i>, and is a considerable improvement.<\/p>\n

But when one looks at the overall context and opinions of those (at least this one person: Douglas Wilson) making these \u201cconcessions,\u201d it is clear that they can still be categorized as \u201cquasi-anti-Catholics,\u201d if not anti-Catholics (since the most widely-used definition amongst Catholics and historians and sociologists of all stripes is one whereby it means that Catholicism is considered a sub-Christian faith altogether).<\/p>\n

I have found this to be true of both Calvin and Luther also, in the course of my studies on this issue. They may acknowledge baptism, yet on the other hand, they maintain the whole range of arguments against Catholicism, based on a host of misunderstandings and incoherent examinations, both theologically and historically. In other words, they hold to a\u00a0contradictory<\/i>\u00a0position, whereas true-blue anti-Catholics are at least\u00a0consistent<\/i>\u00a0(though far more\u00a0wrong<\/i>\u00a0and distant from the overall truth of the matter, insofar as they hold to more falsehoods and errors).<\/p>\n

Despite the \u201cminimalistic\u201d (too often quite condescending and patronizing) acceptance of Catholicism on a bare-bones level as Christian, these men state in a hundred different ways that the complete system of Catholic theology is abominable, idolatrous, etc. This is especially true in Calvin\u2019s opinion on the Sacrifice of the Mass (and to a lesser extent, Luther\u2019s), and both men\u2019s reactions to the communion of the saints. It goes without saying that both had a very dim understanding of Catholic soteriology, thus leading to a host of distortions and straw men that have plagued that discussion ever since.<\/p>\n

But my immediate point is to reiterate that even with the concessions of this relatively more \u201cecumenical\u201d position, it is still far closer to outright anti-Catholicism in spirit than to a full-fledged ecumenism such as that seen in Vatican II and the ECT statements and the ongoing Lutheran-Catholic discussions.<\/p>\n

Luther, Calvin, and men like Douglas Wilson and those who call themselves \u201cReformed Catholics\u201d today still (generally-speaking) view Catholics as fundamentally \u201clesser\u201d (often accompanied by much sheer prejudice and ignorance) in a way that they would not view fellow Protestants. They treat scarcely any other Protestant group with the suspicion and apprehension that they bring with them when they approach Catholics.<\/p>\n

It seemingly largely remains the case that whoever is a \u201ctrue Christian\u201d in Catholic circles, must be so\u00a0despite<\/i>\u00a0all of Rome\u2019s \u201cerrors.\u201d They are Christian insofar as they sound like good evangelicals or Reformed Protestants. They can\u2019t be a good Christian by being a good (orthodox) Catholic. And that is the condescension and difference in how Catholics are regarded, over against other species of Protestants, by\u00a0both<\/i>\u00a0schools (who are debating each other presently). I shall show examples of how Douglas Wilson regards Catholics in his recent\u00a0opening statement in the debate\u00a0<\/a>mentioned above (his words will be in\u00a0blue<\/span>), with my critical interjections:<\/p>\n

Before proceeding to my argument, I would like to begin with an assertion so there will be no confusion about my position concerning the Church of Rome. I detest the errors of Rome, and I pray for the day of her repentance. Among those errors I would include the idolatry of the Mass, the use of images in worship, their profound confusion on the matter of faith and works, Purgatory, Mariolatry, merit, the saints, the papacy, and much more. In preparation for this debate, I read James White\u2019s book\u00a0The Roman Catholic Controversy<\/i>, which I thought was quite good. Judging from that book, I do not know of any\u00a0distinctive<\/i>\u00a0Roman doctrine concerning which James White and I would disagree.<\/span><\/p>\n

Note that he accuses Catholics of idolatry in three ways: the Mass, and veneration of images and of Mary.<\/p>\n

I want to begin by setting a scriptural pattern, and I want to show how this pattern can be seen as culminating in a specific apostolic warning to the Church at Rome, which is the subject of our proposition being debated tonight.<\/span><\/p>\n

Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? (Heb. 10:29)<\/span><\/p><\/blockquote>\n

The book of Hebrews was written to a new covenant people, and it was written in order to head off a looming apostasy. That is what the entire book is about.<\/span><\/p>\n

Thus Wilson equates institutional Catholicism with an apostate\u00a0organization<\/i>\u00a0supposedly being discussed here, with scarcely any warrant from the immediate textual considerations.<\/p>\n

Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness. Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted (1 Cor. 10:1-6)<\/span><\/p><\/blockquote>\n

In short,\u00a0our<\/i>\u00a0fathers are\u00a0our<\/i>\u00a0examples, and with a number of them God was\u00a0not<\/i>\u00a0well pleased. But what does all this have to do with the Roman Catholic Church? Rome has fallen into the errors it has because she has refused to heed the warning explicitly given by the apostle Paul to that specific church-a warning very much like the ones we have just been considering.<\/span><\/p>\n

Isn\u2019t this a wonderfully edifying and ecumenical sentiment? Wilson casually assumes that Paul was discussing the historic Catholic Church here. He doesn\u2019t prove it; he merely assumes it. In so doing, Catholics are equated in moral and discipleship terms with the disobedient Jews in the wilderness, and those who lust after evil.<\/p>\n

The apostle Paul saw (with remarkable prescience) that the Church at Rome was going to be a problem, and he addressed it forthrightly. And the only thing that is more remarkable than the Church of Rome ignoring these Pauline warnings aimed\u00a0<\/span>straight at her besetting sins is that fact that Protestants have also largely ignored the fact that these warning were directed at Rome.\u00a0<\/span>[he goes on to cite Rom. 11:16-22]<\/span><\/p><\/blockquote>\n

I submit, rather, that the quasi-anti-Catholic Douglas Wilson argues eisegetically and with remarkably circular logic.<\/p>\n

In the past I have maintained (although I cannot find\u00a0where<\/i>\u00a0I said this) that Rome was guilty of a final apostasy at Trent, where in solemn ecumenical council she anathematized any who faithfully held the biblical gospel. This is no longer my position, and if my worthy opponent has found a quotation of mine that says this, and returns to this point to press me with it, I will merely say, \u201cI changed my mind, and it is a practice I commend to you.\u201d It is nevertheless still my position that what happened at Trent\u00a0deserved<\/i>\u00a0removal from the olive tree, that is, from the catholic church. But I am now convinced that such a removal has not yet occurred. God does not always give us what we deserve.<\/span><\/p>\n

Absolutely\u00a0classic<\/i>\u00a0example of a distinction without a difference . . . Further comment \u2014 and I could make several \u2014 would be entirely superfluous and an insult to readers\u2019 intelligence.<\/p>\n

The Roman church is shot through with theological liberalism, which Machen correctly identified as another religion entirely.<\/span><\/p>\n

As if Protestantism\u00a0isn\u2019t<\/i>? But the crucial\u00a0difference<\/i>\u00a0is that liberalism (which we received from our Protestant brethren in the first place as an extrinsic \u201chostile worldview\u201d) has not been enshrined or legitimized or\u00a0sanctioned<\/i>\u00a0in Catholic\u00a0dogma<\/i>\u00a0to the\u00a0slightest degree<\/i>, whereas we see Protestant denominations \u2014 most notably, Anglicanism (particularly in England and America) \u2014\u00a0institutionally<\/i>\u00a0changing, compromising, and caving to liberalism all over the place. Therefore, this criticism is far more damaging to Protestantism and its faulty principles of authority which have arguably caused the massive institutional apostasy of Protestant liberalism, than to the Catholic Church]<\/p>\n

Couple this with feminism, the appeal of Mariolatry to the natural man, and it is quite possible that Mary will eventually get her big promotion, and people will be baptized into the name of a Quaternity<\/strong><\/em>. [my emphases]<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Oh,\u00a0really<\/i>? Now Wilson lowers himself to the surreal and ridiculous levels of an Eric Svendsen or David T. King. Mary (it is \u201cquite possible\u201d<\/span>) is to be promoted to membership into the Godhead and the Holy Trinity. Wow; it\u2019s weird that I, as a Catholic apologist, have completely\u00a0missed<\/i>\u00a0this turn of events . . . Wilson has now lost all credibility in my opinion, as any sort of \u201cexpert\u201d on Catholicism. This is shocking and saddening to me, as I thought some progress was being made. But at least this (rather spectacularly) proves my point about ignorance, distortion, and so forth.<\/p>\n

Who cares if he acknowledges our baptism, if he can argue on an absurd level like this, and have these ludicrous views of Catholic Mariology? To make matters worse (and more illogical) Wilson tries to place this in the context of an encroaching\u00a0liberalism<\/i>. But it is precisely liberalism which cares\u00a0less and less<\/i>\u00a0about Mary (let alone Marian dogmas). The ones who are devoted to the Blessed Virgin and development of Mariology are the\u00a0orthodox<\/i>\u00a0Catholics: who would be the very\u00a0last<\/i>\u00a0persons to compromise trinitarianism and the nature of the Godhead.<\/p>\n

When the creedal core has rotted out, the liturgy cannot remain indefinitely the same. We see this in the mainline denominations which abandoned the faith in substance, but kept the old triune form\u00a0for a time<\/i>, a form which we should receive.<\/span><\/p>\n

This serves to prove my point about Protestant liberalism, too. Stuff like this happens in their ranks all the time, but there is no sign that it has occurred in Catholicism. And that should give folks like Mr. Wilson some significant pause, as to\u00a0why<\/i>\u00a0that is the case. Individual stray, heterodox, dissenting Catholics may reject the Trinity, but that has nothing to do with what the\u00a0Church<\/i>\u00a0teaches. Yet Wilson fears that the Catholic Church may switch from a Trinity to a Quaternity (I wonder if he is scared of the boogeyman \u201cgetting him\u201d every night, too?). I swear that I have rarely seen such a ridiculous and empty-headed argument from an otherwise intelligent man, who should know far better.<\/p>\n

***<\/p>\n

(Originally posted on 11-7-04)<\/p>\n

*<\/p>\n

Photo credit:<\/strong> Protestant theologian Douglas Wilson, Revelation Commentary<\/em> (7-9-19)<\/span> [You Tube<\/a>]<\/p>\n

*<\/p>\n

***<\/p>\n<\/body><\/html>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

vs. Douglas Wilson Lately, with the much-ballyhooed debate between two Reformed Protestants: Douglas Wilson and Bishop \u201cDr.\u201d [???] James White, concerning whether Catholics are Christians or not, renewed discussion on the legitimacy of Catholic baptism (and thus, no need for rebaptism of a convert to Protestantism) has arisen in Protestant (particularly, Reformed) circles. Wilson says […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2331,"featured_media":45258,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[231],"tags":[508,2806,10407,10404,2389,2386,2805,2366,2388,10410,2356,10419,10413,2822,10416,2385,263,516],"class_list":["post-45251","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-anti-catholicism","tag-catholic-mariology","tag-devotion-to-mary","tag-douglas-wilson","tag-douglas-wilson-mariology","tag-dulia","tag-honoring-mary","tag-hyperdulia","tag-james-white","tag-latria","tag-mariolatry","tag-mariology","tag-mary-as-god","tag-protestants-catholic-mariology","tag-protestants-mary","tag-quaternity","tag-veneration-of-mary","tag-veneration-of-saints","tag-worship"],"yoast_head":"\nBlessed Virgin Mary Will Soon be Promoted to Godhood?<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"Protestant Douglas Wilson (who should know 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Formerly a campus missionary, as a Protestant, Dave was received into the Catholic Church in February 1991, by the late, well-known catechist and theologian, Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave\u2019s articles have appeared in many influential Catholic periodicals, including \\\"This Rock\\\" (now called \\\"Catholic Answers Magazine\\\"), \\\"Envoy Magazine\\\" (Patrick Madrid), \\\"The Catholic Answer,\\\" \\\"The Coming Home Journal,\\\" \\\"Gilbert Magazine\\\" (American Chesterton Society), and \\\"The Latin Mass.\\\" He also writes a featured column for every issue of \\\"The Michigan Catholic\\\": published by the archdiocese of Detroit, and was editor for most of the apologetics tracts published by the St. Paul Street Evangelization apostolate. Dave\u2019s apologetics and writing apostolate was the subject of a feature article in the May 2002 issue of \\\"Envoy Magazine.\\\" He served as the staff moderator at the Internet discussion forum for The Coming Home Network, from 2007-2010. Dave has been interviewed on many nationally syndicated Catholic radio shows, including \\\"Catholic Answers Live\\\" (twice), \\\"Faith and Family Live\\\" (Steve Wood), \\\"Kresta in the Afternoon,\\\" \\\"Son Rise Morning Show,\\\" \\\"Catholic Connection\\\" (Teresa Tomeo), and \\\"The Catholics Next Door.\\\" His large and popular website, \\\"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism,\\\" was online from March 1997 to March 2007, and received the 1998 Catholic Website of the Year award from \\\"Envoy Magazine.\\\" His blog of the same name (now transferred to Patheos), begun in February 2004, contains more than 1,500 papers, at least 500 debates or dialogues, and over 50 distinct \\\"index\\\" web pages. Unsolicited correspondence has indicated many hundreds of conversions (or returns) to the Catholic faith as a result, by God's grace, of these writings. Dave's conversion story was published in the bestselling book \\\"Surprised by Truth\\\" (edited by Patrick Madrid; San Diego: Basilica Press, 1994). Sophia Institute Press has published six of his books: \\\"A Biblical Defense of Catholicism\\\" (Foreword by Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J., 1996 \/ 2003), \\\"The Catholic Verses\\\" (2004), \\\"The One-Minute Apologist\\\" (2007), \\\"Bible Proofs for Catholic Truths\\\" (2009), \\\"The Quotable Newman\\\" (editor: 2012), and \\\"Proving the Catholic Faith is Biblical\\\" (2015). He is co-author (with Dr. Paul Thigpen) of the inserts for \\\"The New Catholic Answer Bible\\\" (Our Sunday Visitor: 2005), and editor for \\\"The Wisdom of Mr. Chesterton: The Very Best Quotes, Quips, and Cracks from the Pen of G. K. Chesterton\\\" (Saint Benedict Press \/ TAN Books: 2009). \\\"100 Biblical Arguments Against Sola Scriptura\\\" was published by Catholic Answers in May 2012. His \\\"Quotable Wesley\\\" compilation was published by (Protestant \/ Wesleyan publisher) Beacon Hill Press in April 2014. Several of his 49 books are bestsellers in their field. Dave maintains a popular personal Facebook page, a Facebook author page, and has a Twitter account as well. He offers almost all of his books in e-book form on his own Biblical Catholicism site (http:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/), at a permanent deep discount: only $2.99 for ePub, mobi, and AZW, and $1.99 for PDF. His writing has been enthusiastically endorsed or recommended by many leading Catholic apologists, authors, and priests, including Dr. Scott Hahn, Fr. Peter M. J. Stravinskas, Marcus Grodi, Patrick Madrid, Steve Ray, Tim Staples, Devin Rose, Mike Aquilina, Al Kresta, Karl Keating, Fr. Dwight Longenecker, Brandon Vogt, Marcellino D'Ambrosio, and Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave has been happily married to his wife Judy since October 1984. 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Formerly a campus missionary, as a Protestant, Dave was received into the Catholic Church in February 1991, by the late, well-known catechist and theologian, Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave\u2019s articles have appeared in many influential Catholic periodicals, including \"This Rock\" (now called \"Catholic Answers Magazine\"), \"Envoy Magazine\" (Patrick Madrid), \"The Catholic Answer,\" \"The Coming Home Journal,\" \"Gilbert Magazine\" (American Chesterton Society), and \"The Latin Mass.\" He also writes a featured column for every issue of \"The Michigan Catholic\": published by the archdiocese of Detroit, and was editor for most of the apologetics tracts published by the St. Paul Street Evangelization apostolate. Dave\u2019s apologetics and writing apostolate was the subject of a feature article in the May 2002 issue of \"Envoy Magazine.\" He served as the staff moderator at the Internet discussion forum for The Coming Home Network, from 2007-2010. Dave has been interviewed on many nationally syndicated Catholic radio shows, including \"Catholic Answers Live\" (twice), \"Faith and Family Live\" (Steve Wood), \"Kresta in the Afternoon,\" \"Son Rise Morning Show,\" \"Catholic Connection\" (Teresa Tomeo), and \"The Catholics Next Door.\" His large and popular website, \"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism,\" was online from March 1997 to March 2007, and received the 1998 Catholic Website of the Year award from \"Envoy Magazine.\" His blog of the same name (now transferred to Patheos), begun in February 2004, contains more than 1,500 papers, at least 500 debates or dialogues, and over 50 distinct \"index\" web pages. Unsolicited correspondence has indicated many hundreds of conversions (or returns) to the Catholic faith as a result, by God's grace, of these writings. Dave's conversion story was published in the bestselling book \"Surprised by Truth\" (edited by Patrick Madrid; San Diego: Basilica Press, 1994). Sophia Institute Press has published six of his books: \"A Biblical Defense of Catholicism\" (Foreword by Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J., 1996 \/ 2003), \"The Catholic Verses\" (2004), \"The One-Minute Apologist\" (2007), \"Bible Proofs for Catholic Truths\" (2009), \"The Quotable Newman\" (editor: 2012), and \"Proving the Catholic Faith is Biblical\" (2015). He is co-author (with Dr. Paul Thigpen) of the inserts for \"The New Catholic Answer Bible\" (Our Sunday Visitor: 2005), and editor for \"The Wisdom of Mr. Chesterton: The Very Best Quotes, Quips, and Cracks from the Pen of G. K. Chesterton\" (Saint Benedict Press \/ TAN Books: 2009). \"100 Biblical Arguments Against Sola Scriptura\" was published by Catholic Answers in May 2012. His \"Quotable Wesley\" compilation was published by (Protestant \/ Wesleyan publisher) Beacon Hill Press in April 2014. Several of his 49 books are bestsellers in their field. Dave maintains a popular personal Facebook page, a Facebook author page, and has a Twitter account as well. He offers almost all of his books in e-book form on his own Biblical Catholicism site (http:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/), at a permanent deep discount: only $2.99 for ePub, mobi, and AZW, and $1.99 for PDF. His writing has been enthusiastically endorsed or recommended by many leading Catholic apologists, authors, and priests, including Dr. Scott Hahn, Fr. Peter M. J. Stravinskas, Marcus Grodi, Patrick Madrid, Steve Ray, Tim Staples, Devin Rose, Mike Aquilina, Al Kresta, Karl Keating, Fr. Dwight Longenecker, Brandon Vogt, Marcellino D'Ambrosio, and Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave has been happily married to his wife Judy since October 1984. They have three sons and a daughter, and reside in southeast Michigan (metro Detroit).","sameAs":["https:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/","https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/dave.armstrong.798","https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/@LuxVeritatisApologetics"],"url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/author\/davearmstrong"}]}},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/45251","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/2331"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=45251"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/45251\/revisions"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/45258"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=45251"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=45251"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=45251"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}