critiques of atheism<\/a>.<\/p>\nNo, the burden of proof is on the theist. He is making the claim, namely that God exists. Period.<\/span><\/p>\nI know you would like to believe that atheism is a claim that God does not exist. Unfortunately for you, an atheist is merely saying \u201cI\u2019ve heard about these claims for god, but I do not subscribe to them.\u201d And that, my friend is the truth. I do not believe in god. That is the only claim I am making.<\/span><\/p>\nYou may send all people making the proactive claim \u2013as atheists \u2014 they they have discovered the proof that \u201cgod does not exist\u201d and I will help straighten them out.<\/span><\/p>\nThe burden is on the theist.<\/span><\/p>\nYou still have some sort of worldview, whatever you claim it is, or say about it. If you don\u2019t think it can be defended, that just shows me that it\u2019s not based in a rational understanding; or else you could and would defend whatever it is. But if you can\u2019t, it must not be as reasonable as atheists routinely claim their views are.<\/p>\n
We Christians do<\/em>\u00a0produce all kinds of rational arguments for our views. You guys reject \u2019em, but at least we make the effort<\/em> to come up with rational arguments and defenses.<\/p>\nIt is true that each person bears the burden of defending his\/her beliefs\/worldview with reason. No atheist bears that burden, except to prove that he\/she does not believe in God. That is easy as pie to defend, it is simply a declaration. [unless you have insisted that those of us who do not believe in God are actually lying, and insist we prove it.] <\/span><\/p>\nA mere declaration is not a defense. You still must provide reasons for your belief in a godless universe. If you can\u2019t, it\u2019s an irrational belief-system: one of blind faith.<\/p>\n
This is grounded in the fact that atheism means simply \u2018without God\u2019. I am atheistic, but my beliefs and convictions of truth conflict strongly with 85% of atheists in this world.<\/span><\/p>\nChristians present logical arguments for the existence of God, true. However, they are not rational. There is a difference. Purely \u2018logical\u2019 arguments have no rule against deploying non-existing (speculative, invented) existents in the chain of logic. Reason (rationality) on the other hand, requires both logic and facts: all existents in the chain of argument must be proven to exist with their characteristics and definitions identified.<\/span><\/p>\nThis is why your arguments are refuted (not merely \u2018rejected\u2019).<\/span><\/p>\nI agree that there are false premises and unsubstantiated premises in play; but I think they are on the atheist side, not ours.<\/p>\n
Try again: here is my postulation: \u201cI, John Donohue, do not believe in God.\u201d Are you telling me that this is not defensible when I state it? Are you saying I am lying? Are you saying you don\u2019t stipulate this as true?<\/span><\/p>\nYour job is to defend your belief that God exists. I have no action points on that score. The burden is completely on you.<\/span><\/p>\nWhat do<\/em><\/strong>\u00a0you believe, besides that there is no \u201cGod\u201d (I get that)?<\/p>\n[revised version: \u201c. . . besides not believing in God . . . \u201c]<\/p>\n
I have all kinds of defenses and links collections of defenses of theism and Christianity. You\u2019ve come to the right place if you wanna see those.<\/p>\n
No, you don\u2019t get it.<\/span><\/p>\nI realize that your gambit \u2014 your only gambit \u2014 is to force my position to be that I \u201cBelieve there is no God.\u201d I will continue to challenge you sharply every time you attempt it. I am not saying, nor do I need to say, \u201cThere is no God.\u201d I am only saying \u201cI do not believe in God.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\nPerhaps this will help, a long form of it: I, John Donohue, have heard the claims of theists that something exists called \u201cGod\u201d. There are many of you, and you\u2019ve been around a long time, and you are very proactive in the world. You have hundreds and hundreds of different descriptions of God.<\/span><\/p>\nHowever, I do not believe in any version you are positing, because none of you have proved it to exist. When one of you proves God to exist, then I, and the rest of humanity, will actually know the qualities, characteristics of it, because it will be rationally identified. So stop trying to put these words in my mouth \u201cThere is no God.\u201d Instead, it is your job to show that there is.<\/span><\/p>\nNow, on your other challenge, what do I believe in. My answer: that is not the subject. You don\u2019t need to know. Do not construe this to mean I avoid the responsibility of proving my beliefs. I can and do. But not here. The subject here is the existence of God and therefore the solution to \u201cThe Problem of Evil.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\nAlrightey. We\u2019ll have to agree to disagree then.<\/p>\n
Delighted to hear that you do indeed believe<\/em> something (rather than merely reject<\/em> sumpin\u2019), and can defend<\/em> it (but not here<\/em>).<\/p>\nAs stated, I have a ton of resources regarding defense of theism and Christianity. For many links on the problem of evil (including some of my own stuff), see the section devoted to that thorny problem<\/a>.<\/p>\n<\/body><\/html>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"Court of Appeals Albany, New York, 14 October 2009 [Wikimedia Commons \/\u00a0Creative Commons\u00a0Attribution-Share Alike 2.0 Generic\u00a0license] * * * The following exchange is from the combox of my post,\u00a0Alvin Plantinga\u2019s Refutation of the Logical Problem of Evil. Atheist John Donohue\u2018s words will be in blue. * * * * * A theist cannot sensibly claim […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2331,"featured_media":4686,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[124,112],"tags":[267,1043,258,1366,119,1493,979,1067],"class_list":["post-4685","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-atheism-agnosticism","category-philosophy-science","tag-agnosticism","tag-anti-theism","tag-atheism","tag-faith-reason","tag-philosophy-of-religion","tag-reasonable-faith","tag-religious-epistemology","tag-theistic-proofs"],"yoast_head":"\n
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Formerly a campus missionary, as a Protestant, Dave was received into the Catholic Church in February 1991, by the late, well-known catechist and theologian, Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave\u2019s articles have appeared in many influential Catholic periodicals, including \\\"This Rock\\\" (now called \\\"Catholic Answers Magazine\\\"), \\\"Envoy Magazine\\\" (Patrick Madrid), \\\"The Catholic Answer,\\\" \\\"The Coming Home Journal,\\\" \\\"Gilbert Magazine\\\" (American Chesterton Society), and \\\"The Latin Mass.\\\" He also writes a featured column for every issue of \\\"The Michigan Catholic\\\": published by the archdiocese of Detroit, and was editor for most of the apologetics tracts published by the St. Paul Street Evangelization apostolate. Dave\u2019s apologetics and writing apostolate was the subject of a feature article in the May 2002 issue of \\\"Envoy Magazine.\\\" He served as the staff moderator at the Internet discussion forum for The Coming Home Network, from 2007-2010. Dave has been interviewed on many nationally syndicated Catholic radio shows, including \\\"Catholic Answers Live\\\" (twice), \\\"Faith and Family Live\\\" (Steve Wood), \\\"Kresta in the Afternoon,\\\" \\\"Son Rise Morning Show,\\\" \\\"Catholic Connection\\\" (Teresa Tomeo), and \\\"The Catholics Next Door.\\\" His large and popular website, \\\"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism,\\\" was online from March 1997 to March 2007, and received the 1998 Catholic Website of the Year award from \\\"Envoy Magazine.\\\" His blog of the same name (now transferred to Patheos), begun in February 2004, contains more than 1,500 papers, at least 500 debates or dialogues, and over 50 distinct \\\"index\\\" web pages. Unsolicited correspondence has indicated many hundreds of conversions (or returns) to the Catholic faith as a result, by God's grace, of these writings. Dave's conversion story was published in the bestselling book \\\"Surprised by Truth\\\" (edited by Patrick Madrid; San Diego: Basilica Press, 1994). Sophia Institute Press has published six of his books: \\\"A Biblical Defense of Catholicism\\\" (Foreword by Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J., 1996 \/ 2003), \\\"The Catholic Verses\\\" (2004), \\\"The One-Minute Apologist\\\" (2007), \\\"Bible Proofs for Catholic Truths\\\" (2009), \\\"The Quotable Newman\\\" (editor: 2012), and \\\"Proving the Catholic Faith is Biblical\\\" (2015). He is co-author (with Dr. Paul Thigpen) of the inserts for \\\"The New Catholic Answer Bible\\\" (Our Sunday Visitor: 2005), and editor for \\\"The Wisdom of Mr. Chesterton: The Very Best Quotes, Quips, and Cracks from the Pen of G. K. Chesterton\\\" (Saint Benedict Press \/ TAN Books: 2009). \\\"100 Biblical Arguments Against Sola Scriptura\\\" was published by Catholic Answers in May 2012. His \\\"Quotable Wesley\\\" compilation was published by (Protestant \/ Wesleyan publisher) Beacon Hill Press in April 2014. Several of his 49 books are bestsellers in their field. Dave maintains a popular personal Facebook page, a Facebook author page, and has a Twitter account as well. He offers almost all of his books in e-book form on his own Biblical Catholicism site (http:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/), at a permanent deep discount: only $2.99 for ePub, mobi, and AZW, and $1.99 for PDF. His writing has been enthusiastically endorsed or recommended by many leading Catholic apologists, authors, and priests, including Dr. Scott Hahn, Fr. Peter M. J. Stravinskas, Marcus Grodi, Patrick Madrid, Steve Ray, Tim Staples, Devin Rose, Mike Aquilina, Al Kresta, Karl Keating, Fr. Dwight Longenecker, Brandon Vogt, Marcellino D'Ambrosio, and Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave has been happily married to his wife Judy since October 1984. They have three sons and a daughter, and reside in southeast Michigan (metro Detroit).\",\"sameAs\":[\"https:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/\",\"https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/dave.armstrong.798\",\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/@LuxVeritatisApologetics\"],\"url\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/author\/davearmstrong\"}]}<\/script>\n<!-- \/ Yoast SEO plugin. -->","yoast_head_json":{"title":"Theist vs. Atheist Burdens of Proof (Double Standards)","description":"Mere declaration is not defense. 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Formerly a campus missionary, as a Protestant, Dave was received into the Catholic Church in February 1991, by the late, well-known catechist and theologian, Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave\u2019s articles have appeared in many influential Catholic periodicals, including \"This Rock\" (now called \"Catholic Answers Magazine\"), \"Envoy Magazine\" (Patrick Madrid), \"The Catholic Answer,\" \"The Coming Home Journal,\" \"Gilbert Magazine\" (American Chesterton Society), and \"The Latin Mass.\" He also writes a featured column for every issue of \"The Michigan Catholic\": published by the archdiocese of Detroit, and was editor for most of the apologetics tracts published by the St. Paul Street Evangelization apostolate. Dave\u2019s apologetics and writing apostolate was the subject of a feature article in the May 2002 issue of \"Envoy Magazine.\" He served as the staff moderator at the Internet discussion forum for The Coming Home Network, from 2007-2010. Dave has been interviewed on many nationally syndicated Catholic radio shows, including \"Catholic Answers Live\" (twice), \"Faith and Family Live\" (Steve Wood), \"Kresta in the Afternoon,\" \"Son Rise Morning Show,\" \"Catholic Connection\" (Teresa Tomeo), and \"The Catholics Next Door.\" His large and popular website, \"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism,\" was online from March 1997 to March 2007, and received the 1998 Catholic Website of the Year award from \"Envoy Magazine.\" His blog of the same name (now transferred to Patheos), begun in February 2004, contains more than 1,500 papers, at least 500 debates or dialogues, and over 50 distinct \"index\" web pages. Unsolicited correspondence has indicated many hundreds of conversions (or returns) to the Catholic faith as a result, by God's grace, of these writings. Dave's conversion story was published in the bestselling book \"Surprised by Truth\" (edited by Patrick Madrid; San Diego: Basilica Press, 1994). Sophia Institute Press has published six of his books: \"A Biblical Defense of Catholicism\" (Foreword by Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J., 1996 \/ 2003), \"The Catholic Verses\" (2004), \"The One-Minute Apologist\" (2007), \"Bible Proofs for Catholic Truths\" (2009), \"The Quotable Newman\" (editor: 2012), and \"Proving the Catholic Faith is Biblical\" (2015). He is co-author (with Dr. Paul Thigpen) of the inserts for \"The New Catholic Answer Bible\" (Our Sunday Visitor: 2005), and editor for \"The Wisdom of Mr. Chesterton: The Very Best Quotes, Quips, and Cracks from the Pen of G. K. Chesterton\" (Saint Benedict Press \/ TAN Books: 2009). \"100 Biblical Arguments Against Sola Scriptura\" was published by Catholic Answers in May 2012. His \"Quotable Wesley\" compilation was published by (Protestant \/ Wesleyan publisher) Beacon Hill Press in April 2014. Several of his 49 books are bestsellers in their field. Dave maintains a popular personal Facebook page, a Facebook author page, and has a Twitter account as well. He offers almost all of his books in e-book form on his own Biblical Catholicism site (http:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/), at a permanent deep discount: only $2.99 for ePub, mobi, and AZW, and $1.99 for PDF. His writing has been enthusiastically endorsed or recommended by many leading Catholic apologists, authors, and priests, including Dr. Scott Hahn, Fr. Peter M. J. Stravinskas, Marcus Grodi, Patrick Madrid, Steve Ray, Tim Staples, Devin Rose, Mike Aquilina, Al Kresta, Karl Keating, Fr. Dwight Longenecker, Brandon Vogt, Marcellino D'Ambrosio, and Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave has been happily married to his wife Judy since October 1984. They have three sons and a daughter, and reside in southeast Michigan (metro Detroit).","sameAs":["https:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/","https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/dave.armstrong.798","https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/@LuxVeritatisApologetics"],"url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/author\/davearmstrong"}]}},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/4685","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/2331"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=4685"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/4685\/revisions"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/4686"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=4685"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=4685"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=4685"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}
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