{"id":47471,"date":"2020-05-09T11:12:23","date_gmt":"2020-05-09T15:12:23","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/admin.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/?p=47471"},"modified":"2020-05-09T11:12:23","modified_gmt":"2020-05-09T15:12:23","slug":"calvin-mary-ever-virgin-w-tim-staples-vs-james-swan","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2020\/05\/calvin-mary-ever-virgin-w-tim-staples-vs-james-swan.html","title":{"rendered":"Calvin & Mary Ever Virgin (w Tim Staples vs. James Swan)"},"content":{"rendered":"\n<\/head>
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[John Calvin\u2019s words will be in\u00a0blue<\/span>; Tim Staples\u2019 in\u00a0green<\/span>; anti-Catholic Reformed polemicist James Swan\u2019s in brown<\/span>]<\/div>\n

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Catholic apologist and friend Tim Staples has a new book out about Mariology, entitled,\u00a0Behold Your Mother: A Biblical and Historical Defense of the Marian Doctrines<\/i><\/a>.\u00a0 On 10 October 2014 at the Catholic Answers blog, he wrote a related post, entitled,\u00a0\u201cApologists Make Mistakes, Too!\u201d\u00a0<\/a>Well, of course we do (as far as\u00a0that\u00a0<\/i>goes)! No argument there. I am questioning, however, whether we have been (hugely) mistaken on\u00a0this<\/i>\u00a0particular point.<\/p>\n

First of all: I\u2019m not trying to make this some big stink between Tim and I. Not at all! It\u2019s a friendly dispute about a fascinating question. Tim\u2019s a great guy. I like his stuff; he likes my writing, too. We first met in 2011 at the Catholic Answers office in California.<\/p>\n

I think it is important to respond to this article, in particular, because it\u2019s already (quite predictably) being\u00a0exploited<\/i>\u00a0by anti-Catholic Reformed apologist James Swan. I wrote on the Catholic Answers thread about that:<\/p>\n

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It\u2019s all the more important that we get this issue nailed down, since vitriolic anti-Catholic Protestants like James Swan is already trying to exploit your post, to make Catholic apologists look stupid. He immediately seized upon it in\u00a0his post, dated 10-11-14<\/a>:<\/p>\n

This is another issue that\u2019s been on this blog for many years now. . . .\u00a0I look forward to utilizing Staples here the next time one of Rome\u2019s apologists bring this up. . . . I\u2019ve accused Rome\u2019s defenders for years of sloppy and inaccurate historical work on the Protestant Reformation, especially the Reformers\u2019 Mariology. At times it\u2019s been like shooting fish in a barrel. . . .\u00a0It\u2019s enough for me that one of Rome\u2019s popular defenders is now saying some of the same things I\u2019ve been saying for years.<\/span><\/p><\/blockquote>\n

Thus, he is using the old tired tactic of pitting one Catholic apologist (whom he thinks is relatively more smart) over against the rest of the massive lot of dummies that he thinks we are as a class, in order to mock both Catholic apologists and the faith they defend. He despises all of us. He\u2019s only trying to \u201cuse\u201d your post in order to make his point that Catholic apologists\u00a0en masse<\/i>\u00a0are sloppy researchers and not to be trusted (except, of course, when they reach the same conclusion that he does).<\/p>\n

It\u2019s important, then, that we determine where the truth lies here. . . . I believe I and others (and you, formerly) have been correct in stating that Calvin accepted the PVM. This is not a\u00a0faux pas<\/i>\u00a0(or worse) that we have to rectify, in public or in private.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

So what exactly is the dispute under consideration? Here are the standard passages from Calvin that are used to demonstrate (though not with absolute conclusiveness; I agree) that he believed in the perpetual virginity of Mary:<\/p>\n

Helvidius displayed excessive ignorance in concluding that Mary must have had many sons, because Christ\u2019s \u201cbrothers\u201d are sometimes mentioned.\u00a0<\/span>(Harmony of Matthew, Mark and Luke<\/i>, sec. 39 [Geneva, 1562], vol. 2 \/ From\u00a0Calvin\u2019s Commentaries<\/i>, translated by William Pringle, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Eerdmans, 1949, p.215; on Matthew 13:55)<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

[On Matt 1:25:]\u00a0The inference he<\/span>\u00a0[Helvidius]\u00a0drew from it was, that Mary remained a virgin no longer than till her first birth, and that afterwards she had other children by her husband . . . No just and well-grounded inference can be drawn from these words . . . as to what took place after the birth of Christ. He is called \u201cfirst-born\u201d; but it is for the sole purpose of informing us that he was born of a virgin . . . What took place afterwards the historian does not inform us . . . No man will obstinately keep up the argument, except from an extreme fondness for disputation.<\/span>\u00a0(Pringle,\u00a0ibid<\/i>., vol. I, p. 107)<\/p>\n

Under the word \u201cbrethren\u201d the Hebrews include all cousins and other relations, whatever may be the degree of affinity.\u00a0<\/span>(Pringle,\u00a0ibid<\/i>., vol. I, p. 283 \/ Commentary on John, [7:3] )<\/p><\/blockquote>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n

Some Protestants have argued that these texts are insufficient to determine what Calvin believed, or that he himself was agnostic and took no position on this issue, or in fact, opposed the notion that she was a perpetual virgin. Tim wrote in his recent post:<\/p>\n

I also point out some errors going in the other direction. Well-intentioned Catholics\u2014even some Catholic apologists\u2014have presented things concerning Protestant beliefs that are just plain wrong.<\/span><\/p><\/blockquote>\n

And error is error no matter the source.<\/span><\/p>\n

. . .\u00a0Calvin Did NOT Believe in the Perpetual Virginity of Mary<\/b><\/span><\/p>\n

This second myth is even more widespread.\u00a0 . .<\/span><\/p>\n

The error seems to have stemmed from misunderstanding some few comments from John Calvin\u2019s 3-volume set,\u00a0Commentary on a Harmony of the Evangelists, Matthew, Mark, and Luke<\/i>, Transl. by Rev. William Pringle (Christian Classics Ethereal Library, 2009). In his commentaries on Matt. 13:55 and Matt. 1:25, in volume 1, he takes Helvidius to task for assuming Mary had other children because of the mention of the \u201cbrothers of the Lord,\u201d in Matthew 13:55, and for assuming \u201cJoseph knew her not until\u2026\u201d meant that Joseph then was being said to have known Mary conjugally after Christ was born.<\/span><\/p><\/blockquote>\n

Calvin correctly and sternly (in good Calvin fashion) teaches the \u201cbrothers\u201d of the Lord may well be a Hebrew idiom representing \u201ccousins\u201d or some other extended relative. And he also points out that the \u201cuntil\u201d of Matt. 1:25 really says nothing about what happened after Mary gave birth. It was used there to emphasize the virginity of Mary up \u201cuntil\u201d that point.<\/span><\/p><\/blockquote>\n

. . . unfortunately, many Catholics have taken these two sections of Calvin\u2019s commentary out of context and claim it to mean he agreed with the Perpetual Virginity of Mary. But in fact, he never says that. He simply concludes these Scriptures to be silent on the matter. They prove neither yeah nor nay when it comes to Mary\u2019s perpetual virginity.<\/span><\/p><\/blockquote>\n

Tim produces as evidence for his claim, Calvin\u2019s commentary on Luke 1:34:<\/p>\n

The conjecture which some have drawn from these words, that she had formed a vow of perpetual virginity, is unfounded and altogether absurd. She would, in that case, have committed treachery by allowing herself to be united to a husband, and have poured contempt on the holy covenant of marriage . . .\u00a0<\/span><\/p><\/blockquote>\n

He added:<\/p>\n

Notice here, he not only denies this text could be used to prove the Perpetual Virginity of Mary, but he denies the doctrine itself as a possible consideration.<\/span><\/p><\/blockquote>\n

Now, at first glance, this evidence did seem fairly compelling for Tim\u2019s position. But I knew (because I had\u00a0documented it previously<\/a>) that many Calvinist\u00a0 scholars and other Protestant experts on Calvin agree that he\u00a0did\u00a0<\/i>accept the perpetual virginity, and so I wondered why that is, if Tim is correct, and I started digging for more information. I found another related citation, that I think affirms what I and others have been arguing, lo, these many years.<\/p>\n

Max Thurian, in his\u00a0Mary: Mother of All Christians\u00a0<\/i>(translated by Nevill B. Cryer, New York: Herder & Herder, 1963, pp. 39-40) \u2014 I have a hard copy in my library \u2014 notes a sermon of Calvin\u2019s on Matthew 1:22-25, published in 1562 in the shorthand notes of Denys Ragueneau. Here is his citation:<\/p>\n

There have been certain strange folk who have wished to suggest from this passage [Matt 1:25] that the Virgin Mary had other children than the Son of God, and that Joseph had then dwelt with her later; but what folly this is! for the gospel writer did not wish to record what happened afterwards; he simply wished to make clear Joseph\u2019s obedience and to show also that Joseph had been well and truly assured that it was God who had sent His angel to Mary. He had therefore never dwelt with her nor had he shared her company. There we see that he had never known her person for he was separated from his wife. He could marry another all the more because he could not enjoy the woman to whom he was betrothed; but he rather desired to forfeit his rights and abstain from marriage, being yet always married: he preferred, I say, to remain thus in the service of God rather than to consider what he might still feel that he could come to. He had forsaken everything in order that he might subject himself fully to the will of God.<\/span><\/p>\n

And besides this, our Lord Jesus Christ is called the first-born. This is not because there was a second or a third, but because the gospel writer is paying regard to the precedence. Scripture speaks thus of naming the first-born whether or no there was any question of the second. Thus we see the intention of the Holy Spirit. This is why to lend ourselves to foolish subtleties would be to abuse Holy Scripture, which is, as St. Paul says, \u201cto be used for our edification.\u201d<\/span><\/p><\/blockquote>\n

From this we learn several things:<\/p>\n

1. It serves as a further interpretation or clarification of his allegedly \u201cagnostic\u201d commentary on Matthew 1:25, as actually affirming perpetual virginity.<\/p>\n

2. It shows that his denial of a vow of perpetual virginity from Mary is not necessarily and not in fact the same as a denial of her perpetual virginity.<\/p>\n

3. Calvin does indeed believe in the traditional doctrine, as we see in his statement: \u201cnot because there was a second or a third\u201d and his assertion that Joseph never dwelt with Mary. Mary had no further children. This is why he habitually refers to her as \u201cthe virgin\u201d in his writings, much like Catholics have through the centuries. It implies perpetual virginity.<\/p>\n

4. Since they never lived together, according to Calvin, obviously they had no children together. Thus, Mary was perpetually a virgin.<\/p>\n

5. Moreover, it wasn\u2019t a question of corrupting marriage, per his comment on Lk 1:34, since for him, they never lived together and thus were not \u201cunited.\u201d Thus, the difficulty for the belief that he held to the PVM, suggested\u00a0prima facie<\/i>\u00a0by his comment on Luke 1:34 vanishes. For Calvin,\u00a0both<\/i>\u00a0things are true: Mary didn\u2019t make such a vow and they didn\u2019t live together in a chaste fashion, since he thinks they didn\u2019t live together\u00a0at all<\/i>.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

This 1562 sermon may be one reason why many Protestant (including Calvinist) scholars agree that Calvin adhered to Mary\u2019s perpetual virginity, as I noted in my paper (alluded to and linked above) over four years ago now:<\/p>\n

David F. Wright, in his book,\u00a0Chosen by God: Mary in Evangelical Perspective<\/i>\u00a0(London: Marshall Pickering, 1989, pp. 173, 175), stated:<\/p>\n

[H]is more careful biblicism could insist on only Mary\u2019s refraining from intercourse before the birth of Jesus (i.e., her virginity\u00a0ante partum<\/i>). On the other hand, he never excluded as untenable the other elements in her perpetual virginity, and may be said to have believed it himself without claiming that Scripture taught it. . . . [Calvin] commonly speaks of Mary as \u201cthe holy Virgin\u201d (and rarely as simply as \u201cMary\u201d preferring \u201cthe Virgin\u201d, etc.).<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

Thomas Henry Louis Parker, in his\u00a0Calvin: an Introduction to his Thought<\/i>\u00a0(Westminster John Knox Press, 1995), concurs:<\/div>\n

. . . the Virgin Birth, which Calvin holds, together with the perpetual virginity of Mary. (p. 66)<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

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He is the author of several books about Calvin, such as\u00a0John Calvin: A Biography<\/i>\u00a0(Westminster John Knox Press, 2007), and\u00a0Oracles Of God: An Introduction To The Preaching Of John Calvin<\/i>\u00a0(Lutterworth Press, 2002),\u00a0Calvin\u2019s New Testament Commentaries<\/i>\u00a0(S.C.M. Press, 1971),\u00a0Calvin\u2019s Preaching<\/i>\u00a0(Westminster John Knox Press, 1992),\u00a0Calvin\u2019s Old Testament Commentaries<\/i>\u00a0(Westminster John Knox Press, 1993), and several other Calvin-related volumes, and translator of Calvin\u2019s\u00a0Harmony of the Gospels<\/i>\u00a0in its 1995 Eerdmans edition.<\/p>\n

Presumably, he knows enough about Calvin to have a basis for his beliefs about this matter and Calvin\u2019s own position.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n

The article \u201cMary\u201d (by\u00a0David F. Wright) in the\u00a0Encyclopedia of the Reformed Faith<\/i>\u00a0(edited by\u00a0Donald K. McKim, Westminster John Knox Press,1992, p. 237), proclaims:<\/div>\n

Calvin was likewise less clear-cut than Luther on Mary\u2019s perpetual virginity but undoubtedly favored it. Notes in the Geneva Bible (Matt. 1:18, 25; Jesus\u2019 \u201cbrothers\u201d) defend it, as did Zwingli and the English reformers . . .<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

Donald G. Bloesch, in his\u00a0Jesus Christ: Savior and Lord<\/i>\u00a0(Downers Grove, Illinois: InterVarsity Press, 2006, p. 87), joins the crowd:<\/div>\n

Protestantism . . . remained remarkably open to the idea of Mary\u2019s perpetual virginity. Among others, Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, Wollebius, Bullinger and Wesley claimed that Mary was ever-virgin (semper virgo<\/i>). The Second Helvetic Confession and the Geneva Bible of the Reformed faith and the Schmalkald Articles of the Lutheran churches affirm it.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

Geoffrey W. Bromiley\u00a0in his article, \u201cMary the Mother of Jesus\u201d in\u00a0International Standard Bible Encyclopedia: K-P<\/i>\u00a0(edited by Bromiley, revised edition of 1994 published by Eerdmans [Grand Rapids, Michigan], p. 269), wrote:<\/div>\n

The\u00a0post-partum<\/i>\u00a0or perpetual virginity concept is held by some Protestants and was held by many Reformers (e.g., Calvin in his sermon on Mt. 1:22-25) . . .<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

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Note that this refers to the\u00a0sermon<\/i>\u00a0I cited above, not just Calvin\u2019s\u00a0Commentaries<\/i>. And this is from the revised ISBE: not a source one can easily dismiss.<\/p>\n

Derek W. H. Thomas, writing in\u00a0A Theological Guide to Calvin\u2019s Institutes: Essays and Analysis<\/i>\u00a0(edited by David W. Hall & Peter A. Lillback; Presbyterian & Reformed Publishing [Calvin 500 series]: 2008, p. 212), makes a casual reference: \u201ca perpetual virgin in Calvin\u2019s view!\u201d<\/p>\n

He is a professor of systematic and pastoral theology at Reformed Theological Seminary.\u00a0 His doctoral dissertation was devoted to Calvin\u2019s preaching on the book of Job.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n

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Timothy George\u00a0<\/b>concurs, with slight qualification:<\/p>\n

To be sure, there is nothing theologically problematic about affirming Mary\u2019s perpetual virginity. This venerable tradition, first given dogmatic sanction at the Fifth Ecumenical Council in 553, was affirmed by Luther, Zwingli, and Calvin during the Reformation, though Calvin was more agnostic about this belief than the other two reformers.\u00a0(in\u00a0Mary, Mother of God<\/i>, edited by\u00a0Carl E. Braaten and Robert W. Jenson, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Eerdmans Pub. Co.: 2004;\u00a0\u00a0<\/span>p. 109)<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

Dr. George is the dean of Beeson Divinity School at Samford University, teaches Church history and serves as executive editor for\u00a0Christianity Today<\/i>. He has served on the Board of Directors of the Southern Baptist Convention, has written more than twenty books, and regularly contributes to scholarly journals. His book\u00a0Theology of the Reformers<\/i>\u00a0is used as a textbook in many schools and seminaries.<\/p>\n

J. A. Ross MacKenzie\u00a0wrote:\u00a0\u201cCalvin, like Luther and Zwingli, taught the perpetual virginity of Mary\u201d (in Alberic Stacpoole, editor,\u00a0Mary\u2019s Place in Christian Dialogue<\/i>, Wilton, Connecticut: Morehouse-Barlow, 1982, 35-36).\u00a0 Dr. Mackenzie\u00a0was a professor of church history at Union Theological Seminary in Virginia, and has translated or written more than twenty theological books.<\/p>\n

Robert H. Stein, professor of New Testament interpretation at The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, also agrees:<\/p>\n

If one believes in the perpetual virginity of Mary, a teaching held not only by Roman Catholicism but also by Greek Orthodoxy, Martin Luther, and John Calvin, then the Helvidian view must be rejected. (Mark<\/i>\u00a0[Commentary], Grand Rapids, Michigan: Baker Academic: 2008, p. 187)<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

Calvin\u2019s successor\u00a0Theodore Beza\u00a0argued that Catholics and Protestants agreed on the perpetual virginity of Mary, at the Colloquy of Poissy in 1561 (see William A. Dyrness,\u00a0Reformed Theology and Visual Culture: the Protestant Imagination from Calvin to Edwards<\/i>, [Cambridge University Press, 2004], pp. 86-87).<\/p>\n<\/div>\n

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Tim Staples gave a long reply in the\u00a0combox\u00a0that I don\u2019t think (with all due respect) refuted the heart of my objection at all: what Calvin flat-out stated in his sermon. Nor did he explain why so many Protestant and\/or Calvinist scholars hold that he accepted the perpetual virginity of Mary. It\u2019s one thing for us as Catholics to look at a few texts and render our opinions. The Calvinist or the Calvinist or otherwise Protestant Calvin scholar who has an opinion on such a matter will be far more informed, as both a specialist and an advocate of Calvinism, as the case may be, than we would be (generally speaking).He would also know a lot more than a quack Reformed polemicist like James Swan who regularly makes pronouncements on such matters as if he is some sort of scholarly expert who should be trusted as much as actual scholars. I back up my contentions with scholars, as much as possible. Swan makes his (often quite dogmatic) contentions (complete with the ubiquitous mocking of Catholics and Catholicism that is his stock-in-trade) whether scholars agree with him or not.<\/p>\n

Such Protestant scholars also would generally disbelieve in many of the Marian doctrines, so if they assert that Calvin believed this, chances are he\u00a0did<\/i>, since their bias would be towards a stance that he did not. In that sense, they are sort of \u201chostile witnesses.\u201d<\/p>\n

James Swan then chimed in with his usual one-note tune, first writing on his blog about my comment in the thread:<\/p>\n<\/div>\n

A comment was left for Mr. Staples giving (among other things)\u00a0a Calvin citation from a secondary source\u00a0(that is, no original or complete context) documenting a sermon from Calvin\u00a0(a citation from Calvin in English which was translated from the French, originally from shorthand notes), taken from a French journal, not the original sermon\u00a0(that is- the secondary source utilized a Calvin quote from a journal).<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

Then on the thread itself, he replied:<\/p>\n

If I recall, Max Thurian wrote his book in French. It was then translated to English.\u00a0If one checks Thurian\u2019s documentation for his Calvin quote, it doesn\u2019t appear to me that he actually utilized a primary source, but rather took his citation from La Revue r\u00e9form\u00e9e 1956\/4, pp. 63-64.\u00a0In other words, the Calvin quote in question that is presented in English came from the French, and was taken from a French journal.\u00a0Where did the French journal get it? Did the journal article use the primary source?\u00a0These are the questions I would ask immediately. Without reading something in context, making pronouncements on what Calvin did or did\u00a0not believe may not be the best thing to do.\u00a0<\/span><\/p><\/blockquote>\n

. . . These are the basic things I ask when looking into texts. It may indeed be the case that\u00a0there was not any distortion from what Calvin originally said to the presentation from\u00a0Thurian. A careful person though should make sure to examine the trail\u00a0of evidence before making dogmatic conclusions.<\/span><\/p><\/blockquote>\n

Once again, for those not familiar with Swan\u2019s\u00a0modus operandi<\/i>\u00a0(which I\u2019ve observed and interacted with for over twelve years), he appears objective and without an ax to grind. To act with his usual stripes would not be to his purpose, so he \u201cbehaves.\u201d His insinuation is that Tim Staples is \u201ccareful\u201d whereas the vast majority of Catholic apologists are not. And that is what Swan has been contending for years, with particular animus against my views of Martin Luther\u2019s Mariology. It\u2019s the \u201cdivide and conquer\u201d routine. He\u2019s simply cynically using Tim Staples\u2019 views as a means to make the same anti-Catholic and anti-Catholic apologist point he\u00a0always\u00a0<\/i>tries to make.<\/p>\n

The fact remains that Swan can talk about \u201ccontext\u201d all he wants, and make out that even non-scholars must always read the original context in the original language (which he doesn\u2019t do himself) to decide anything at all. He\u2019s no scholar. The men I cite\u00a0are<\/i>\u00a0scholars, and for some odd reason they conclude (over against mere blogger Swan) that Calvin believed in the perpetual virginity of Mary.<\/p>\n

This is why scholars exist in the first place: to specialize in things that most of us have neither the ability nor the desire to specialize in. We consult them for the answers to such things. Geoffrey W. Bromiley (unlike Swan) is such a scholar,\u00a0 and in the\u00a0International Standard Bible Encyclopedia<\/i>\u00a0(edited by himself: revised edition of 1994) he stated:<\/p>\n

The\u00a0post-partum<\/i>\u00a0or perpetual virginity concept is held by some Protestants and was held by many Reformers (e.g., Calvin in his sermon on Mt. 1:22-25) . . .<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

Somehow he thinks this sermon is solid evidence that Calvin believed in Mary\u2019s perpetual virginity.\u00a0 Somehow another scholar like Thomas Henry Louis Parker, the very editor of\u00a0Calvin\u2019s Commentaries<\/i>, and author of some ten works about him, agrees with Bromiley. Why is that? Did they, too, take things out of context, or lack \u201ccare\u201d with the primary sources? Did they jump to dogmatic conclusions, when they would be inclined by predisposition not do? I think not.<\/p>\n

In such disputes about historical fact, one should consult the scholars who are most familiar with the person whose opinions are being discussed. Tim Staples is not a Calvin scholar and not an historian. Neither is James Swan. Neither am I. But I\u00a0consult<\/i>\u00a0the scholars who are in a position to decide such things, whereas both Tim and Swan have (regarding this question) thus far ignored that relevant evidence, for some inexplicable reason.<\/p>\n

Another internal argument based on Calvin\u2019s own commentaries can be produced. I alluded to it in on page 60 of my 2010 book,\u00a0\u201cThe Catholic Mary\u201d: Quite Contrary to the Bible?<\/i>\u00a0In his\u00a0Harmony of the Gospels<\/i><\/a>\u00a0(Vol. II, p. 65; \u201ctranslated from the original Latin and collated with the author\u2019s French version, by William Pringle), Calvin is commenting on Luke 8:19 (\u201cAnd his mother and his brethren came to him\u201d), and\u00a0 casually mentions that the parallel passages of \u201cthe other two Evangelists . . . represent Christ\u2019s mother and\u00a0cousins<\/i>\u00a0as having come . . .\u201d (my italics). The other two passages are the following (RSV):<\/p>\n

Matthew 12:46<\/b>\u00a0While he was still speaking to the people, behold, his mother and his brothers stood outside, asking to speak to him.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

Mark 3:31<\/b>\u00a0And his mother and his brothers came; and standing outside they sent to him and called him.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

This is fascinating. Calvin is not being neutral or agnostic here\u00a0at all<\/i>, as to the specific meaning of\u00a0adelphos<\/i>\u00a0in these instances. He has taken a definite position: it means \u201ccousins.\u201d He believes that Jesus doesn\u2019t have siblings and that these instances of\u00a0adelphos<\/i>\u00a0\/\u00a0adelphe\u00a0<\/i>\/ \u201cbrothers\u201d \/ \u201cbrethren\u201d do not prove otherwise (as countless contrary arguments against perpetual virginity falsely assume is the case). Calvin adopted the classic \u201ccousins\u201d theory as to the meaning of \u201cJesus\u2019 brothers\u201d in Scripture (which is the usual view that Catholic commentators take).<\/p>\n

This directly contradicts what Tim Staples claimed (above) about Calvin\u2019s views. He wrote:<\/p>\n

Calvin correctly and sternly (in good Calvin fashion) teaches the \u201cbrothers\u201d of the Lord may well be a Hebrew idiom representing \u201ccousins\u201d or some other extended relative. . . . But unfortunately, many Catholics have taken these two sections of Calvin\u2019s commentary out of context and claim it to mean he agreed with the Perpetual Virginity of Mary. But in fact, he never says that. He simply concludes these Scriptures to be silent on the matter. They prove neither yeah nor nay when it comes to Mary\u2019s perpetual virginity.<\/span><\/p><\/blockquote>\n

This has now been shown to be untrue, by both the 1562 sermon and the\u00a0Harmony of the Gospels<\/i>, at Luke 8:19, where Calvin definitely opts for the meaning of \u201ccousins.\u201d Therefore, he\u00a0does<\/i>\u00a0indeed \u201csay that\u201d in this other place in his corpus of Bible commentary. He\u2019s either taking the position of perpetual virginity or at the very least a view\u00a0perfectly consistent\u00a0<\/i>with it (Jesus\u2019 described \u201cbrothers\u201d were his cousins \/ He had no siblings). But what it clearly is\u00a0not<\/i>, is an agnostic or neutral position (at least regarding these uses of\u00a0adelphos<\/i>\u00a0\/\u00a0adelphe<\/i>), as Tim claims it is. Later, he wrote in comments (replying to me):<\/p>\n

I believe Calvin rejected the Perpetual Virginity of Mary in his commentary on Matthew, Mark, and Luke and that I think many of us have taken this work out of context over the years. . . . the use of his commentary on Matthew, Mark, and Luke, specific to his comments on Matt. 13:55 and especially Matt. 1:25 is misguided, in my opinion.<\/span><\/p><\/blockquote>\n

When you consider that Calvin explicitly takes a position in between Helvidius and Jerome in his commentary on Matt. 1:25 and he says as much, he says the text does not conclude either way, and then he footnotes his own work in Matt. 1:25 when he comments on Matt. 13:55 that the \u201cbrothers of the Lord\u201d could be a Hebrew idiom for some other extended relation, that seems to me to be more agnostic than declaratory of the Perpetual Virginity of Mary.<\/span><\/p><\/blockquote>\n

It\u2019s no longer agnostic, when Calvin interprets both the passages in Matthew and Mark (and by strong implication, also in Luke) as meaning \u201ccousins.\u201d Again, I\u2019m sure this data is part of the reasoning for why so many Protestant, and specifically Calvinist scholars believe that Calvin held to the perpetual virginity of Mary.<\/p>\n

Nor is there any hint of \u201cwaffling\u201d on Calvin\u2019s part, as far as I can tell, in all of this information, taken together. My take is a perfectly plausible and self-consistent explanation for all of it, in line with what the Calvin scholars also say: he believed in the perpetual virginity of Mary. He didn\u2019t \u201cwaffle\u201d on it; he didn\u2019t appear to change his view over time, He simply wasn\u2019t quite as\u00a0explicit\u00a0<\/i>as Luther and others were, on this question. It requires a little digging to ascertain his position (which we have done).<\/p>\n

I also don\u2019t think that Calvin was \u201cneutral\u201d or \u201cagnostic\u201d regarding Matthew 1:25 and the notorious \u201cuntil\u201d argument of those who deny perpetual virginity. That text neither asserts nor denies perpetual virginity in and of\u00a0itself<\/i>. That far, we all agree, I think. What detractors of the doctrine do is insinuate that \u201cuntil\u201d\u00a0 implies sexual activity on Mary\u2019s part after the birth of Jesus. Calvin firmly responds that it does\u00a0no such thing<\/i>. He shoots down this very common argument, made by Protestants all the time today. He responds precisely as a Catholic apologist would: arguing that the text doesn\u2019t in any fashion\u00a0 prove what it is claimed that it supposedly proves.<\/p>\n

To me, that is not an agnostic or uncommitted position at all. It is in\u00a0favor<\/i>\u00a0of perpetual virginity (or if we want to nitpick) totally consistent with it, and inconsistent with one of the most common biblical arguments made against it. The \u201cbrothers\u201d argument is the other most common (and thoroughly fallacious) argument made. Calvin points out that the word doesn\u2019t have to always mean \u201csiblings.\u201d He\u2019s exactly right.<\/p>\n

But if that sounds neutral or agnostic at his commentary on Matthew 13:55, it ain\u2019t when he comments on Luke 8:19 (and also on Mathew and Mark) and says that the meaning of \u201cbrothers\u201d in the parallel passages is \u201ccousins\u201d. He is no longer neutral or undecided or uncommitted or agnostic. He has taken a position. And it is exactly what we would\u00a0expect\u00a0<\/i>him to argue, if indeed he holds to the perpetual virginity of Mary, as I believe he did.<\/p>\n

I think Tim\u2019s argument collapses in all respects (sorry, Tim!). The 1562 sermon was one decisive blow. It explained that Calvin\u2019s objection to a vow of virginity did not mean he denied the perpetual virginity of Mary, as explained above. He blew that off by saying that Calvin\u2019s commentary is much more to be trusted than the sermon. Very well, then: if we (rightly or wrongly) want to give some \u201cpriority\u201d to the Commentaries, now the comment on Luke 8:19 has to be dealt with, and it does\u00a0not<\/i>\u00a0favor Tim\u2019s position. It has undermined the very essence of it (repeated over and over by Tim): that Calvin allegedly took no stand and merely discussed a range of possibilities.<\/p>\n

In another instance of Calvin interpreting a \u201cbrother of Jesus\u201d as a cousin, we have his\u00a0commentary on Galatians 1:19<\/a>\u00a0(\u201cBut I saw none of the other apostles except James the Lord\u2019s brother.\u201d):<\/p>\n

\n
Except James.\u00a0<\/i>Who this James was, deserves inquiry. Almost all the ancients are agreed that he was one of the disciples, whose surname was \u201cOblias\u201d and \u201cThe Just,\u201d and that he presided over the church at Jerusalem.\u00a0(33)<\/span>\u00a0Yet others think that he was the son of Joseph by another wife, and others (which is more probable) that he was the cousin of Christ by the mother\u2019s side:\u00a0(34)<\/span>\u00a0but as he is here mentioned among the apostles, I do not hold that opinion. Nor is there any force in the defense offered by Jerome, that the word Apostle is sometimes applied to others besides the twelve; for the subject under consideration is the highest rank of apostleship, and we shall presently see that he was considered one of the chief\u00a0pillars<\/i>. (Galatians 2:9<\/span>.) It appears to me, therefore, far more probable, that the person of whom he is speaking is the son of Alpheus.\u00a0(35)<\/span><\/span><\/div>\n<\/blockquote>\n

Footnote 35\u00a0<\/a>elaborates:<\/p>\n

This is fully consistent with the opinion commonly held, that Alpheus or Cleopas was the husband of the sister of Mary, the mother of our Lord, and consequently that James, the son of Alpheus, was our Lord\u2019s cousin-german.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

All of this is perfectly consistent with, if not direct evidence of, Calvin\u2019s belief in the perpetual virginity of Mary.<\/p>\n

Tim made another reply in the thread, consisting mostly of reiterations of what he has already said (which is never a good sign of the vigor and strength of an argument: it should be able to defend itself against critiques). He replied:<\/p>\n

In fact, if you want to add to your case file, I would recommend Calvin\u2019s commentary on Gal. 1:19,<\/span><\/p><\/blockquote>\n

I already made that argument in comment #26 [right above his comment where he stated this]. But glad to see that you found that, too.<\/p>\n

All of these are great for Catholic apologetics, but I don\u2019t believe they are definitive proof that Calvin believed in the PVBVM.<\/span><\/p><\/blockquote>\n

Again, you completely ignore the opinions of Calvin scholars: that he\u00a0did<\/i>\u00a0believe in it. Why? Why do they think that? Why are you so sure that they are wrong? So you really think that a guy like Thomas Henry Lewis Parker is completely out to sea when he affirms this; that he is not familiar with all the relevant texts in Calvin, and his understanding of all that is inferior to yours? He is the author of:<\/p>\n

Calvin: an Introduction to his Thought\u00a0<\/i>(Westminster John Knox Press, 1995).<\/p>\n

John Calvin: A Biography<\/i>\u00a0(Westminster John Knox Press, 2007).<\/p>\n

Oracles Of God: An Introduction To The Preaching Of John Calvin<\/i>\u00a0(Lutterworth Press, 2002).<\/p>\n

Calvin\u2019s Preaching<\/i>\u00a0(Westminster John Knox Press, 1992).<\/p>\n

Editor of\u00a0Calvin\u2019s New Testament Commentaries<\/i>\u00a0(S.C.M. Press, 1971),<\/p>\n

Editor of\u00a0Calvin\u2019s Old Testament Commentaries<\/i>\u00a0(Westminster John Knox Press, 1993)<\/p>\n

Translator of Calvin\u2019s\u00a0Harmony of the Gospels<\/i>\u00a0(1995 Eerdmans edition).<\/p>\n

He translated Calvin\u2019s commentaries on Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, and Colossians in 1965 and his Commentary on John (1959-61).<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

According to you,\u00a0The Encyclopedia of the Reformed Faith<\/i>\u00a0is dead-wrong.\u00a0 Donald G. Bloesch is wrong. Geoffrey W. Bromiley in the\u00a0International Standard Bible Encyclopedia\u00a0<\/i>is wrong.<\/p>\n

Derek W. H. Thomas, writing in\u00a0A Theological Guide to Calvin\u2019s\u00a0<\/i>Institutes: Essays and Analysis<\/i>\u00a0(edited by David W. Hall & Peter A. Lillback; Presbyterian & Reformed Publishing [Calvin 500 series]: 2008, p. 212), makes a casual reference: \u201ca perpetual virgin in Calvin\u2019s view!\u201d He is a professor of systematic and pastoral theology at Reformed Theological Seminary.\u00a0 His doctoral dissertation was devoted to Calvin\u2019s preaching on the book of Job. But he\u2019s wrong, too.<\/p>\n

Timothy George, dean of Beeson Divinity School at Samford University, and executive editor for\u00a0Christianity Today<\/i>\u00a0is wrong. Robert H. Stein, professor of New Testament interpretation at The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary is dead-wrong. Theodore Beza, Calvin\u2019s successor, was wrong in asserting that Calvinists accepted the doctrine, in an attempted ecumenical council in 1561, during Calvin\u2019s lifetime.<\/p>\n

You ignore all this. All these scholars are incompetent in their own field of expertise. I guess you think they have been quoting Calvin out-of-context, too, just as (if you are right) dozens of Catholic apologists have been doing (such as Jimmy Akin, Scott Hahn, Fr. Stravinskas, various EWTN articles, etc.). The Catholic Answers tract\u00a0Mary: Ever Virgin<\/i>\u00a0agrees with my take:<\/p>\n

Today most Protestants are unaware of these early beliefs regarding Mary\u2019s virginity and the proper interpretation of \u201cthe brethren of the Lord.\u201d And yet, the Protestant Reformers themselves\u2014Martin Luther, John Calvin, and Ulrich Zwingli\u2014honored the perpetual virginity of Mary and recognized it as the teaching of the Bible, as have other, more modern Protestants.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

So now\u00a0that<\/i>\u00a0has to be revised, too?<\/p>\n

Your argument (that you merely repeat here; nothing new) from Calvin\u2019s commentary on Luke 1:34 was refuted by the sermon of 1562. Calvin thought Mary and Joseph didn\u2019t even\u00a0live\u00a0<\/i>together. Thus, the \u201cdifficulty\u201d you find compelling, vanishes.<\/p>\n

You dismiss the sermon on inadequate grounds (therefore you make no attempt to counter-reply to that relevant additional consideration). How is it, then, that Geoffrey Bromiley, in the\u00a0International Standard Bible Encyclopedia<\/i>, seems to think that it is strong evidence?: \u201cThe post-partum or perpetual virginity concept is held by some Protestants and was held by many Reformers (e.g., Calvin in his sermon on Mt. 1:22-25)\u201d.<\/p>\n

You can ignore this relevant data from Calvin scholars a third or fourth time if you wish, but it won\u2019t help your case. Every doctoral dissertation reviews the literature, to see what the consensus of scholars on a particular question is. It\u2019s not considered the fallacy of \u201cappeal to authority\u201d when they do that. And it isn\u2019t, because that\u2019s not\u00a0all<\/i>\u00a0they produce. They also make the argument in their dissertation, just as I am making various arguments from primary Calvin texts, but also noting the consensus of the Calvin scholars and professors of history, etc. who have examined the matter. This is not insignificant at all. Yet when it comes to what the scholarly experts say, you want to completely ignore and dismiss that.<\/p>\n

You certainly don\u2019t have a consensus of scholars on that contention.<\/span><\/p><\/blockquote>\n

I\u2019m the only one in this discussion who has actually\u00a0cited<\/i>\u00a0scholars! I don\u2019t think you have cited a single one (I may have missed it, and it may be in your book; just not here). At best,\u00a0some\u00a0<\/i>of them note that Calvin was less explicit than Luther (which\u00a0 I agree with in the first place). Thus, David F. Wright says: \u201cCalvin was likewise less clear-cut than Luther on Mary\u2019s perpetual virginity but undoubtedly favored it.\u201d<\/p>\n

That\u2019s not saying that the opinion is tentative, or that he waffled, or was agnostic, or only open to the possibility, or changed his mind in later years, etc. It says what it says: \u201cundoubtedly favored it.\u201d Timothy George wrote: \u201caffirmed by Luther, Zwingli, and Calvin during the Reformation, though Calvin was more agnostic about this belief than the other two reformers.\u201d Yep; I agree. He was less direct than Luther (most people are!), but he still, according to Dr. George,\u00a0 \u201caffirmed\u201d it.<\/p>\n

They\u2019re all looking at the same evidence that you and I have seen. This is the conclusion they come to. I think they\u2019re right, and that Catholic apologists have been right about this, and anti-Catholic polemicists like James Swan wrong.<\/p>\n

I have no problem noting when Protestant \u201creformers\u201d get things wrong, or when they change their minds later on. Hence, I modified my view of Luther\u2019s view of the Immaculate Conception, which he changed later on in life. I call his position \u201cimmaculate purification,\u201d because he no longer placed it at her conception. I changed my mind in part because of some arguments produced by anti-Catholics. Truth is truth, wherever it is found.<\/p>\n

But I changed my mind, and\u00a0wrote about it almost exactly four years ago<\/a>. So you\u2019re not the only Catholic apologist who can change their mind if the facts warrant it (lest the enemies of the faith like James Swan start saying that you are a \u201clone voice\u201d in this regard). I\u2019ve done it many times.<\/p>\n

But as I mentioned at first, anti-Catholics like Swan are only going to exploit your article (he already has), since it says that almost all Catholic apologists have been wrong about this for years, and you become in effect the \u201cwhistleblower\u201d for integrity and truth.<\/p>\n

That\u2019s a shame; especially when I don\u2019t see that your argument succeeds.<\/p>\n

\n

Tim replied at length again in the thread. Here is our exchange:<\/span><\/p>\n

\n
\n

I would love to go with these Protestant scholars you\u2019ve cited. It would make my life easier. But how can I when I read the above that I\u2019ve given to you?<\/span><\/p>\n

By accepting the 1562 sermon as the most \u201cdefinitive\u201d word on the topic that we have (far as I can tell)!<\/p>\n

An appeal to the authority of Calvinist scholars is good and interesting, but can you at least see why that would not be enough for me?<\/span><\/p>\n

Technically, I\u2019m not appealing merely to their authority, or saying, \u201cbelieve it because these experts believe it, and no one can do otherwise.\u201d I understand logical fallacies very well, as the veteran of well over 700 online debates and apologetics arguments for 33 years now.<\/p>\n

My challenge to you was a more subtle form of argument: \u201cWhy<\/i>\u00a0do you think these guys all seem to agree that Calvin held to the PVM, if in fact (and in your mind) it is so unclear and so fuzzy and indefinite?\u201d Bias doesn\u2019t explain it, because their natural bias would be to oppose it, since they likely don\u2019t hold to it themselves (most of \u2019em; though I read that even Kuyper believed in it). You question the validity of the 1562 sermon, but Bromiley didn\u2019t, and made it his stated proof.<\/p>\n

To me it\u2019s a curiosity: how could a guy that eminent in academia conclude that Calvin believed in the PVM, on the basis of something you will hardly even consider? The most plausible reason to me would be that he thinks it is genuine and does indeed reflect Calvin\u2019s thought, two years before his death. The scholar has to defend what he asserts to his peers, and will be hung out to dry if he can\u2019t. The stakes are a lot higher for them, in everything they argue.<\/p>\n

I must say this as well. I am enjoying this back-and-forth quite a bit. Hopefully, all who are reading this will do the research and make up their own minds.<\/span><\/p>\n

Yeah, it\u2019s fun, and that is the utility of dialogue. I\u2019ve found new arguments that I think help my side, in being challenged to back it up more fully. And it looks like you have done the same from your side.<\/p>\n

I really appreciate Dave\u2019s attention to detail in this matter. Would that all involved in the work of apologetics were as intense.<\/span><\/p>\n

Thanks, and likewise.<\/p>\n

And I have yet to hear a response for my concerns from these other statements.<\/span><\/p>\n

I\u2019ve said at least twice now that what Calvin said in his sermon, can account for that, I believe. He sees it as not a \u201cregular\u201d situation at all. He assumes that Joseph and Mary don\u2019t even live together. Therefore, there is no \u201cmonstrosity\u201d of a man and a woman being under the same roof, and also chaste. They aren\u2019t together in the first place! If he wants to die on the hill of saying that without consummation there cannot possibly be a marriage, then Joseph and Mary weren\u2019t married at all in his eyes, though the Bible says they were, and it seems to me that he puts his opinion above even the Bible at that point.<\/p>\n

But that\u2019s how I answer your whole line of argument about Calvin and the absolute necessity of sexual relations for a marriage, in his mind. You obviously disagree, but it\u00a0is<\/i>\u00a0some kind of counter-reply, agree or no. So it\u2019s incorrect to say that I have not replied to that. I incorporate the sermon into what I think is a consistent interpretation that takes all of the data into account, whereas your method is to dismiss the sermon as inauthentic or of dubious overall relevance.<\/p>\n

I would say: \u201cutilize all the resources and connections available at Catholic Answers and find out\u00a0more\u00a0<\/i>about this sermon; get the original, and find some guy who knows Latin or French (whatever the original is), so that all that can be settled.\u201d You guys have the money and 40 or so people. I have very little money and am just myself. :-)<\/p>\n

I\u2019ve searched and searched online and can\u2019t find out any more info. about it. If it goes down, I would agree that your case is relatively more plausible, though I still believe that he held to the PVM, from all the evidence, even without the input of the sermon. If it is determined to be absolutely authentic, then I think you have to deal directly with it, and explain how it doesn\u2019t prove that he held to the PVM.<\/p>\n

And especially in the case of Matt. 1:25, Calvin explicitly says the text cannot be used to conclude either position.<\/span><\/p>\n

I dealt with that earlier. Proponents of the \u201cbrothers\u201d follow Helvidius and argue that the famous \u201cuntil\u201d here proves sexual relations. Calvin states firmly that it does not do so at all. To me, that is\u00a0more so<\/i>\u00a0defending tradition, even if he also says or implies that no one can conclude\u00a0either way<\/i>\u00a0based on that alone. But he\u00a0does\u00a0<\/i>assert that the \u201cpro\u201d argument fails at this point \u2014 he shoots it down and virtually insults those who make it \u2014 , and that is quite significant itself, seeing that this is one of the centerpieces of their argument.<\/p>\n

I think it all goes together.\u00a0This<\/i>\u00a0argument; the fact that he states twice that\u00a0adelphos<\/i>\u00a0meant \u201ccousins\u201d and not sibling-\u201cbrother\u201d; the sermon, the use of \u201choly virgin,\u201d the testimony of Beza, the seeming consensus of Reformed scholars. It\u2019s a cumulative argument, with the sermon as the clincher, in my mind, but still strong and plausible even without it.<\/p>\n

But (here is your strength) without what he says in the sermon, your argument from his views on marriage would be a lot more compelling, since they wouldn\u2019t be countered and overcome by what he stated in the sermon. So the sermon seems to be in the center of the whole debate, and we must learn more about it: if for no other reason than satisfaction of curiosity!<\/p>\n

I acknowledge that your argument (at the end) is more compelling if the sermon is irrelevant. But what do you say if it is backed up by scholarship and shown to be absolutely authentic and late in his life as well?<\/p>\n

Thanks for the friendly discussion!<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n

* * * *<\/p>\n

I then went searching for the sermon in question. I had an idea where it might be found, and wrote in the thread:<\/p>\n

I think the sermon would likely be part of the\u00a0Corpus Reformatorum<\/i>, since\u00a0volumes 29-87 are devoted to his works<\/a>. It\u2019s in Latin (unless some stuff is French). We just have to figure out what volume it\u2019s in. Many volumes are available in Google Books.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

I started looking through online volumes; went to the index volume and found \u201cSermons on the Nativity\u201d in Volume 46. I then wrote:<\/p>\n

I\u2019m almost certain I found it.\u00a0Go to this link<\/a>\u00a0and download the pdf of vol. 46 (\u201cTome 46\u201d) of the\u00a0Corpus Reformatorum<\/i>. It\u2019s called \u201cSermon 22\u201d on the Harmony of the Gospels, dealing with Matthew 1:22-25, and runs from pp. 259-272. It\u2019s in French.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

I did that, and cut-and-pasted the entire sermon.\u00a0 Google and Babylon translation pages revealed that it was indeed the sermon in question, based on a comparison to the Thurian version (above). I then\u00a0posted it on a separate web page<\/a>, and asked on Facebook if anyone could translate the last portion of it. Gregory Fast did so.<\/p>\n

Now fortunately, we are incredibly blessed to have James Swan, an anti-Catholic blogger, who does not know French, as far as I know, to announce (on the CA thread) that he also ran across the sermon and that\u00a0\u201cThe\u00a0translation\u00a0from\u00a0Thurian\u2019s\u00a0book\u00a0is\u00a0accurate.\u201d<\/span>\u00a0Whew! That settles\u00a0that<\/i>! Now we can all rest easy at night, knowing that a non-French speaker and non-credentialed blogger with a penchant for\u00a0classifying professional Catholic apologists as \u201cpsychotic\u201d\u00a0<\/a>\u2014 has authoritatively proclaimed that the portion of a Calvin sermon conveyed by native French speaker Max Thurian<\/a>, who was born in Geneva, the city of Calvin, is\u00a0\u201caccurate.\u201d<\/span>\u00a0Thurian\u2019s citation wasn\u2019t good enough for Swan. He had to make a judgment, himself, in all his wisdom, before he trusted it. Now he does, and so we can all go through the day with a spring in our step, knowing that Swan has confirmed a citation as authentic.<\/p>\n

Swan is the one always harping on and on with his one-note tune about going to the original sources and doing \u201cad fontes\u201d research, endlessly mocking Catholic apologists (or those who pass themselves off as such). He talks a good game (man<\/i>, he sure does talk it!), but he doesn\u2019t follow his own advice. He only applies it selectively to Catholic apologists, whom he despises and detests. He wrote in the thread:<\/p>\n

I have located the sermon, as well as the place in the text Thurian\u2019s quote is from.\u00a0The translation from Thurian\u2019s book is accurate.\u00a0. . . The sermon itself was not all that difficult to locate,\u00a0and the place in the French text is easy to spot.<\/span><\/p><\/blockquote>\n

Uh huh. Is that so? I just found out about the sermon a few days ago, and already, last night, I located it in its primary source, with no help from Swan, who alluded to having found it in the thread, but didn\u2019t post the\u00a0reference<\/i>, as I did. Swan, however, has known about at least a portion of this sermon for\u00a0over seven years<\/i>. Why, then, has he not dug it up until now, since, as he said last night, that it\u00a0\u201cwas\u00a0not\u00a0all\u00a0that\u00a0difficult\u00a0to\u00a0locate\u201d? He goes on and on about going to the original sources, and takes almost eight years to find this one, amidst his eight or so articles about Calvin\u2019s Mariology?<\/p>\n

On 17 January 2007, Swan wrote an article on his blog entitled,\u00a0\u201cBibliographic Tedium on the Reformers and Perpetual Virginity.\u201d<\/a>\u00a0In it he rails (as he has 39,584 times) about how stupid Catholic apologists are. He cited a portion of this sermon that one of them posted on the anti-Catholic CARM discussion board:<\/p>\n

Calvin: \u201cThere have been certain folk who have wished to suggest from this passage [Matt 1:25] that the Virgin Mary had other children than the Son of God, and that Joseph had then dwelt with her later; but what a folly this is! [Sermon on Matthew 1:22-25, Published 1562]<\/span><\/p><\/blockquote>\n

Alongside this were ostensible citations from Luther and Zwingli. Swan goes into deep detail about the sources of those, but ignores the Calvin quote. He then condescendingly lectures and insults in his usual boorish fashion:<\/p>\n

Normally when I interact with someone on this topic,\u00a0the person quoting this stuff becomes silent when ask for a little more bibliographic information.\u00a0I do so to find out if the person putting forth the information\u00a0has actually read Luther, Calvin, or Zwingli, or if the information\u00a0is a cut-and-paste job taken from Catholic apologetic web sites. . . .\u00a0<\/span>it\u2019s the Internet, and anything goes. I strongly doubt I\u2019ll get the\u00a0bibliographic material I asked for. I only point out tedium like this to show that\u00a0many times, people are putting forth information as if they\u2019ve actually studied a subject,\u00a0and made an informed decision. For most people though, it\u00a0seems one makes a conclusion and then looks for information to support it.\u00a0Such is the normal folly of the defenders of Rome.<\/span><\/p><\/blockquote>\n

Why, then, didn\u2019t Swan follow his own advice and show that the quote from Calvin\u2019s sermon was not authentic? It took him over seven years to do so, in the context of Tim Staples writing about the topic and my disagreement with him (and his attempted exploitation of same for purely polemical and slanderous purposes). All of a sudden, now Swan can figure out how to find the original primary source. If it \u201cwas\u00a0not\u00a0all\u00a0that\u00a0difficult\u00a0to\u00a0locate,\u201d\u00a0<\/span>why did it take him almost\u00a0eight years<\/i>? It took me two days. I guess that is one of the many profound differences between the Inimitable Mr. Swan and meself.<\/p>\n

In his article, he mocks the Catholic who produced these quotes because he said it might be a couple of weeks to find further sources, because he was moving and his materials were in boxes (\u201cIt\u00a0will\u00a0be\u00a0[a]\u00a0long\u00a0couple\u00a0of\u00a0weeks<\/i>.\u00a0Now\u00a0this\u00a0takes\u00a0guts, . . .\u201d<\/span>). Almost eight years later, Swan looks up the same source, and pronounces the Thurian portion of it (that the Catholic he chided, cited) as\u00a0\u201caccurate.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

How could we all make it through the\u00a0day<\/i>\u00a0without such a profoundly intelligent, wise, nuanced, always thoughtful, always eminently fair and charitable and \u201cscholarly\u201d fellow brother in Christ, who thinks we are all in spiritual darkness and an inch away from hell, being lowly \u201cRomanists?\u201d<\/p>\n

* * *<\/p>\n

After posting the translation of a portion of the sermon onto the CA thread, I wrote:<\/p>\n

So where does that leave the friendly discussion and debate now, Tim? Do you agree (first of all) that it is an \u201cauthentic\u201d source, to be duly considered in the overall mix? Does it change anything? Does it make it more plausible for those of us who think Calvin accepted the PVM to believe it, even if you remain unpersuaded? Can we now move from a status of being classified as those who cite Calvin \u201cout of context\u201d in order to promulgate a \u201cmyth\u201d to ones who hold a respectable position that can be solidly believed in good faith (equally reasonable and thoughtful folks honestly disagreeing), given the evidence we have produced?<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

Tim replied:<\/p>\n

I think it leaves the discussion friendly, but perhaps it makes the title of my blog post all the more appropriate, but for a different reason. I stand corrected. I think this leaves no doubt that Calvin, at least at the point of writing this sermon, believe[d]\u00a0in the Perpetual Virginity of Mary. I can now say definitively that Calvin waffled on this. And this is reasonable. The PVBVM was believed universally for 1,500 years in the Church. It was believed by men like St. Augustine, St. Jerome, and St. Bernard, all of whom Calvin respected. I will modify my post to include the \u201cwaffling\u201d part. I appreciate the back-and-forth and all involved. We live and learn.<\/span><\/p><\/blockquote>\n

I\u2019ll take note of Tim\u2019s modifications of his post when he changes that. It\u2019s been a great discussion. Kudos to Tim Staples, Director of Apologetics and Evangelization at Catholic Answers, for being able to be partially persuaded of a different view. He now thinks Calvin \u201cwaffled\u201d on the perpetual virginity of Mary and believed it at least in the last years of his life. I think Calvin believed it consistently all along, and that nothing in his statements that we have found is inconsistent with that interpretation. He merely became more explicit, so as to leave no room for doubt, in the late sermon.<\/p>\n

And for these reasons (I submit), the numerous Protestant scholars and Calvin scholars I have cited take the position that he did indeed believe in the perpetual virginity of Mary. The ones who think he did not believe it are folks like, well . . . . noncredentialed anti-Catholic polemicist and blogger James Swan . . . .\u00a0Not<\/i>\u00a0very impressive . . . .<\/p>\n

* * *<\/p>\n

Tim revised his initial post as follows:<\/p>\n

This second myth is even more widespread, but I must qualify it.\u00a0There can be no doubt that John Calvin, at least at some point in his career, believed in the Perpetual Virginity of Mary.\u00a0But to place him on the same level of Luther, Zwingli and Wesley is misguided. It is not to paint the entire picture accurately. And this is why. . . .<\/span><\/p><\/blockquote>\n

My thanks to Dave Armstrong for pointing out to me something I did not know. There is a sermon that John Calvin preached on the Harmony of the Gospels (sermon 22) where he explicitly defends the PVBVM, but this occurred earlier in his career<\/span>\u00a0[?: my understanding is that it is from 1562: two years before his death].\u00a0So again, there is no doubt that Calvin at least earlier in his career believe[d] this Catholic dogma.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

Swan continued to comment in the thread. I disputed one thing he stated:<\/p>\n

If one really wanted to give\u00a0Calvin\u2019s opinion\u00a0on this issue, it is to simply say that\u00a0Calvin did not think it correct to speculate.\u00a0This isn\u2019t the answer polemicists want to hear,\u00a0but it is letting\u00a0Calvin\u00a0be\u00a0Calvin.<\/span><\/p><\/blockquote>\n

Nor is it the answer numerous Calvin scholars (including T. H. L. Parker, mentioned above [by Swan himself], who appears to be the leading Calvin scholar in the world, judging by his books) want to hear. They are letting Calvin be Calvin and they think he held to the PVM. Period. Some temper it a bit in terms of emphasis and explicitness (and I agree, as I have said; Calvin is not Luther), but they still say he held it. I could hardly find anyone who said what Tim believes about him. I\u2019m open to hearing about those. I didn\u2019t find them myself, in some very intense and laborious searches.<\/p>\n

That\u2019s not proof, of course, but it\u00a0does<\/i>\u00a0prove that one can hold that Calvin believed in the PVM for non-\u201cpolemical\u201d purposes. These guys think he did because they think he did. DUH! No other motives other than arriving at historical fact: just as are my motives and Tim\u2019s alike (despite being ignorant, lowly, Pelagian, half-pagan, unregenerate papists who don\u2019t know what the gospel is). Folks can honestly disagree on some things.<\/p>\n

Calvin already\u00a0did<\/i>\u00a0\u201cspeculate\u201d about the issue at hand by stating that there were no second and third sons besides Jesus, and by interpreting\u00a0adelphos<\/i>\u00a0\/\u00a0adelphe<\/i>\u00a0as \u201ccousins\u201d in at least two instances. That\u00a0is\u00a0<\/i><\/b>taking a stand (of\u00a0some\u00a0<\/i>sort), whereas most of those arguing against PVM today almost automatically use the tired, dumb \u201cbrothers\u201d argument and also the \u201ctill\u201d argument of Matthew 1:25 that Calvin also says proves not a whit of what they casually assume it proves.<\/p>\n

To me, that\u2019s taking a stand on it. I don\u2019t think it\u2019s neutral or noncommittal at all. Technically, Jesus being an only child and Mary being a perpetual virgin are different, but it works out basically the same, in terms (specifically) of the arguments commonly used. One party says these \u201cbrothers\u201d are siblings and the other denies it. Calvin is in the latter camp. Seems to me, anyway. And all these scholars I have cited somehow come to the same conclusion.<\/p>\n

I remain the only person who has cited scholars that back up what my position is, as a non-scholar and non-historian. If someone thinks otherwise, then please produce the scholars that agree, and say that Calvin either denied or waffled on the PVM. I\u2019m all for it. That would make the \u201cagnostic\u201d case stronger and more respectable. As it is now, I truly believe that my position is the most plausible to interpret in\u00a0 harmonious fashion all of the data I am aware of.<\/p>\n

\u201cWhy Bring Up the Marian Views of the Early Protestant Leaders At\u00a0All<\/i>? Of What Relevance is It?\u201d<\/b><\/p>\n

This is a question often raised by Protestant apologists, who misunderstand the reason why Catholics note these historical facts about the Protestant founders\u2019 beliefs and aspects of \u201cdistinctive Catholicism\u201d that they retain.<\/p>\n

Primarily<\/i>, it is a matter of historical fact or absence of evidence for same. Hence I wrote in the thread at CA:<\/p>\n

In this instance, no dogma is involved. It\u2019s purely a matter of historical fact: did Calvin believe in the PVM or not? Whether he did or not has nothing to do with Catholic belief. We\u00a0do<\/i>\u00a0hold to it in any event, as dogma.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

If one is interested in the history of theology, development of doctrine, and history of ideas (as I am, very much so), these sorts of questions are interesting, in and of themselves, wholly apart from apologetics or personal adherence one way or the other.\u00a0Along these lines, it\u2019s fascinating to see how the earliest Protestants differ from present-day ones, which is a matter of internal Protestant development (or departure, as the case may be). These approaches are as much sociological as they are historical, but not directly related to apologetics or \u201cpartisanship.\u201d<\/p>\n

I also think, however, that such questions are\u00a0tangentially<\/em>\u00a0or\u00a0potentially<\/em>\u00a0also apologetical ones in\u00a0some\u00a0<\/em>respects.\u00a0If a Protestant founder like Luther or Calvin believes in the PVM and at the same time believes in\u00a0sola Scriptura<\/em>, then (assuming self-consistency) they obviously think they have\u00a0biblical rationale<\/em>\u00a0to believe it, rather than\u00a0merely Catholic authority\u00a0or an argument from\u00a0extrascriptural tradition.<\/p>\n

This then becomes a question in apologetics, insofar as a Protestant tries to claim that Catholics believe in it (as they habitually claim)\u00a0only<\/em>\u00a0due to extrascriptural tradition. At that point we say that it is entirely possible to accept it within a\u00a0sola Scriptura<\/em>\u00a0rule of faith, since Luther or Calvin or Zwingli or whoever, did the same. This undercuts the argument against such-and-such detested Catholic doctrines based on thinking they are \u201ctraditions of men\u201d or corruptions. And that is undoubtedly apologetics and\/or \u201cpolemics.\u201d Anti-Catholic polemicist James Swan understands this, since he wrote on his\u00a0Boors All<\/em>\u00a0blog, on 10-15-14:<\/p>\n

What I\u2019ve found\u00a0is that the\u00a0alleged Mariology of\u00a0the Reformers has\u00a0been used by the\u00a0defenders of Rome to\u00a0show that the Reformers\u00a0practiced\u00a0sola scriptura<\/i>\u00a0and\u00a0held to distinctly\u00a0Roman doctrines.<\/span><\/p><\/blockquote>\n

Having gotten this right\u00a0 (this is\u00a0partially<\/i>\u00a0what we are attempting to do, per the above explanations), he then goes on to draw conclusions from that, that we do\u00a0not\u00a0<\/i>use in our arguments in\u00a0this\u00a0<\/i>respect. But kudos to Swan for getting\u00a0part\u00a0<\/i>of his analysis right. He has consistently shown himself to be equally clueless about both Catholicism and Catholic apologetics over the dozen years I have observed his pathetic antics.<\/p>\n

Anti-Catholic polemicist Steve Hays, writing on his\u00a0Tribalblogue<\/i>\u00a0site on 10-13-14, demonstrates, on the other hand, that he doesn\u2019t get all of this\u00a0at all\u00a0<\/i>(which is not an infrequent occurrence for him), in writing (after referring to the discussion with Tim Staples on the CA blog):<\/p>\n

Suppose the Protestant Reformers agree with Rome on this issue. If that\u2019s an argument from authority in support of Rome, then by converse logic, when they disagree with Rome, that\u2019s an argument from authority in opposition to Rome. The argument from authority cuts both ways.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

He\u2019s completely out to sea here, and about to drown. It never\u00a0was<\/em>\u00a0an argument from \u201cauthority\u201d in the first place (what non-Catholics believe has no bearing at all on what the Catholic Church teaches as binding doctrine: zero, zip, nada, zilch). He only thinks it is because he doesn\u2019t analyze Catholic thinking and apologetics deeply enough: not even as deeply as James Swan does (and that\u2019s setting the bar very low indeed!).<\/p>\n

And he does not do so because it is a general rule that what one utterly despises, one doesn\u2019t accord enough respect to study and research and present accurately. Therefore, when such a person sets out to battle against the dreaded Beast that he detests so deeply, he inevitably ends up fighting a straw man. Hays has virtually made a \u201ccareer\u201d (insofar as one can say that at all about a mere\u00a0blogger<\/em>, as he is) out of such foolish activities.<\/p>\n

Protestant apologists typically claim that such beliefs among their founders are mere unfortunate\u00a0remnants<\/em>\u00a0of their former Catholic affiliation, which they haven\u2019t yet managed to shake off because they were still early in the game of Protestant history, and this is \u201cunderstandable,\u201d etc., etc. This is the \u201cspin\u201d that indicates, I think, a definite measure of embarrassment that the heroes and founders of the Protestant Revolt\u00a0continued to believe a fair amount of \u201cCatholic stuff\u201d that now your average Protestant \u201cTom, Dick, or Harry\u201d immediately \u201cknows\u201d from Scripture Alone, are abominable false doctrines. Luther and Calvin hadn\u2019t yet arrived at that basic state of \u201cBible knowledge\u201d (a ridiculous contention if there ever was one, once one sees how learned and \u201csoaked in the Bible\u201d both men were).

<\/span><\/span><\/span>The \u201cremnant\u201d explanation is\u00a0possible<\/em>; however, it\u2019s an entirely\u00a0subjective<\/em>\u00a0argument, very difficult to prove. It\u2019s a distinction without a difference. How would one prove that so-called \u201cReformer X\u201d believed in the PVM because of the continuance of arbitrary Catholic tradition, or because he truly thought it was warranted from the Bible? I don\u2019t see any way to do it. So the claim is arbitrary and made based on wishful thinking and special pleading, rather than solid ascertainable fact. It\u2019s an interpretation superimposed on the facts as can be determined, to \u201cexplain away\u201d what is thought to be anomalous or embarrassing or inconvenient in the course of anti-Catholic and\/or pro-Protestant apologetics and polemics.<\/p>\n

In any event, all parties are responsible to try to determine the historical facts of any given matter, whichever way they turn out. I think\u00a0\u00a0I\u2019ve shown that I am trying my best to be objective as to these sorts of facts, by changing my mind about some aspects of Luther\u2019s opinion of the Immaculate Conception. He later placed this act of grace at the time of Jesus\u2019 conception rather than Mary\u2019s, so, accordingly, I have renamed his belief, \u201cImmaculate Purification.\u201d

This showed that I am perfectly willing to go where the facts lead, even if the persuasive evidence was partially provided by anti-Catholic sources, as it was in that instance, because truth is truth wherever it is found. Tim Staples has also shown that he is willing to retract some things and modify his position, as more facts become available. That\u2019s what it\u2019s all about: we ought to go to wherever the truth leads us, as can best be determined by diligent study. It was that pursuit of truth that led both Tim and I into the Catholic Church, which entailed changing our minds on a host of matters.<\/p>\n

***<\/p>\n

(originally posted on 6-5-14)<\/p>\n

Photo credit:\u00a0<\/strong>Portrait of\u00a0John Calvin<\/em>\u00a0(1509\u20131564), c. 1550 by an anonymous French painter<\/span> [public domain \/ Wikimedia Commons<\/a>]<\/p>\n

***<\/p>\n<\/body><\/html>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

[John Calvin\u2019s words will be in\u00a0blue; Tim Staples\u2019 in\u00a0green; anti-Catholic Reformed polemicist James Swan\u2019s in brown] **** Catholic apologist and friend Tim Staples has a new book out about Mariology, entitled,\u00a0Behold Your Mother: A Biblical and Historical Defense of the Marian Doctrines.\u00a0 On 10 October 2014 at the Catholic Answers blog, he wrote a related […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2331,"featured_media":47473,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[231,45,37],"tags":[8329,508,3456,832,11005,942,39,40,943,944],"class_list":["post-47471","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-anti-catholicism","category-blessed-virgin-mary","category-john-calvin","tag-calvin-perpetual-virginity","tag-catholic-mariology","tag-ever-virgin","tag-james-swan","tag-james-swan-perpetual-virginity","tag-mariology-of-john-calvin","tag-perpetual-virginity-of-mary","tag-protestant-mariology","tag-reformation-mariology","tag-virgin-birth"],"yoast_head":"\nCalvin & Mary Ever Virgin (w Tim Staples vs. James Swan)<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"Three-way dialogue with Tim Staples & anti-Catholic James Swan. 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They agreed that Calvin did not ever believe Mary was ever virgin (a perpetual virgin), till I persuaded Tim otherwise.","breadcrumb":{"@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2020\/05\/calvin-mary-ever-virgin-w-tim-staples-vs-james-swan.html#breadcrumb"},"inLanguage":"en-US","potentialAction":[{"@type":"ReadAction","target":["https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2020\/05\/calvin-mary-ever-virgin-w-tim-staples-vs-james-swan.html"]}]},{"@type":"BreadcrumbList","@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2020\/05\/calvin-mary-ever-virgin-w-tim-staples-vs-james-swan.html#breadcrumb","itemListElement":[{"@type":"ListItem","position":1,"name":"Home","item":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong"},{"@type":"ListItem","position":2,"name":"Calvin & Mary Ever Virgin (w Tim Staples vs. James Swan)"}]},{"@type":"WebSite","@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/#website","url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/","name":"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism","description":"Catholic biblical apologetics","potentialAction":[{"@type":"SearchAction","target":{"@type":"EntryPoint","urlTemplate":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/?s={search_term_string}"},"query-input":"required name=search_term_string"}],"inLanguage":"en-US"},{"@type":"Person","@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/#\/schema\/person\/471eaa20e441eca4bb1ea50393cf632e","name":"Dave Armstrong","image":{"@type":"ImageObject","inLanguage":"en-US","@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/#\/schema\/person\/image\/","url":"https:\/\/secure.gravatar.com\/avatar\/820e6db89734ae7a9e5dac8d498f5ac7?s=96&d=mm&r=g","contentUrl":"https:\/\/secure.gravatar.com\/avatar\/820e6db89734ae7a9e5dac8d498f5ac7?s=96&d=mm&r=g","caption":"Dave Armstrong"},"description":"Dave Armstrong is a Catholic author and apologist, who has been actively proclaiming and defending Christianity since 1981, and Catholicism in particular since 1991 (full-time since December 2001). Formerly a campus missionary, as a Protestant, Dave was received into the Catholic Church in February 1991, by the late, well-known catechist and theologian, Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave\u2019s articles have appeared in many influential Catholic periodicals, including \"This Rock\" (now called \"Catholic Answers Magazine\"), \"Envoy Magazine\" (Patrick Madrid), \"The Catholic Answer,\" \"The Coming Home Journal,\" \"Gilbert Magazine\" (American Chesterton Society), and \"The Latin Mass.\" He also writes a featured column for every issue of \"The Michigan Catholic\": published by the archdiocese of Detroit, and was editor for most of the apologetics tracts published by the St. Paul Street Evangelization apostolate. Dave\u2019s apologetics and writing apostolate was the subject of a feature article in the May 2002 issue of \"Envoy Magazine.\" He served as the staff moderator at the Internet discussion forum for The Coming Home Network, from 2007-2010. Dave has been interviewed on many nationally syndicated Catholic radio shows, including \"Catholic Answers Live\" (twice), \"Faith and Family Live\" (Steve Wood), \"Kresta in the Afternoon,\" \"Son Rise Morning Show,\" \"Catholic Connection\" (Teresa Tomeo), and \"The Catholics Next Door.\" His large and popular website, \"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism,\" was online from March 1997 to March 2007, and received the 1998 Catholic Website of the Year award from \"Envoy Magazine.\" His blog of the same name (now transferred to Patheos), begun in February 2004, contains more than 1,500 papers, at least 500 debates or dialogues, and over 50 distinct \"index\" web pages. Unsolicited correspondence has indicated many hundreds of conversions (or returns) to the Catholic faith as a result, by God's grace, of these writings. Dave's conversion story was published in the bestselling book \"Surprised by Truth\" (edited by Patrick Madrid; San Diego: Basilica Press, 1994). Sophia Institute Press has published six of his books: \"A Biblical Defense of Catholicism\" (Foreword by Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J., 1996 \/ 2003), \"The Catholic Verses\" (2004), \"The One-Minute Apologist\" (2007), \"Bible Proofs for Catholic Truths\" (2009), \"The Quotable Newman\" (editor: 2012), and \"Proving the Catholic Faith is Biblical\" (2015). He is co-author (with Dr. Paul Thigpen) of the inserts for \"The New Catholic Answer Bible\" (Our Sunday Visitor: 2005), and editor for \"The Wisdom of Mr. Chesterton: The Very Best Quotes, Quips, and Cracks from the Pen of G. K. Chesterton\" (Saint Benedict Press \/ TAN Books: 2009). \"100 Biblical Arguments Against Sola Scriptura\" was published by Catholic Answers in May 2012. His \"Quotable Wesley\" compilation was published by (Protestant \/ Wesleyan publisher) Beacon Hill Press in April 2014. Several of his 49 books are bestsellers in their field. Dave maintains a popular personal Facebook page, a Facebook author page, and has a Twitter account as well. He offers almost all of his books in e-book form on his own Biblical Catholicism site (http:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/), at a permanent deep discount: only $2.99 for ePub, mobi, and AZW, and $1.99 for PDF. His writing has been enthusiastically endorsed or recommended by many leading Catholic apologists, authors, and priests, including Dr. Scott Hahn, Fr. Peter M. J. Stravinskas, Marcus Grodi, Patrick Madrid, Steve Ray, Tim Staples, Devin Rose, Mike Aquilina, Al Kresta, Karl Keating, Fr. Dwight Longenecker, Brandon Vogt, Marcellino D'Ambrosio, and Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave has been happily married to his wife Judy since October 1984. They have three sons and a daughter, and reside in southeast Michigan (metro Detroit).","sameAs":["https:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/","https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/dave.armstrong.798","https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/@LuxVeritatisApologetics"],"url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/author\/davearmstrong"}]}},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/47471","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/2331"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=47471"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/47471\/revisions"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/47473"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=47471"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=47471"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=47471"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}