{"id":4756,"date":"2015-11-21T15:14:51","date_gmt":"2015-11-21T19:14:51","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/admin.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/?p=4756"},"modified":"2017-04-24T19:59:40","modified_gmt":"2017-04-24T23:59:40","slug":"real-discussion-w-ex-catholic-gay-atheist","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2015\/11\/real-discussion-w-ex-catholic-gay-atheist.html","title":{"rendered":"REAL Back-and-Forth Discussion with an Ex-Catholic Gay Atheist"},"content":{"rendered":"\n<\/head>

\"Hypocrisy<\/a><\/p>\n

Image by \u201cKAZ Vorpal\u201d (9-15-15)<\/span> [Flickr<\/a> \/ CC BY-SA 2.0<\/a> license]<\/p>\n

* * *<\/p>\n

The following \u201cbrass tacks\u201d and exceptionally straightforward exchange took place in the combox of my post,<\/span>\u00a0Atheists\u2019 Worldviews (Deep Mystery?)<\/a>. The words of<\/span> BeaverTales<\/a> will be in<\/span> blue<\/span>.<\/p>\n

* * * * *<\/p>\n

We are empiricists. I think most atheist won\u2019t deny we don\u2019t know the unknowable. The difference between us and theists is that we don\u2019t attribute qualities (i.e. invent convenient facts) and attribute them to the unknowable. We also don\u2019t attribute omniscience, infallibility or morality to the unknowable.<\/span><\/p>\n

We just call it \u201cthe unknown\u201d and proceed to study it before inventing facts about it. We see miracles in particle colliders, but record them on a photon collector or cloud chamber. Theist miracles are never recorded on camera, never to be verified to anyone who isn\u2019t already part of the delusion. Why does your God perform the miraculous as \u201cproof\u201d, but can\u2019t pose for a photo, or do something people other than a select group of Catholics can see. Why do you care what atheists think? We\u2019re not burning you at the stake. We are merely asking for proof and we refuse to accept that you have the right to tell others how to live their lives outside of secular law.<\/span><\/p>\n

Obviously we don\u2019t consider God \u201cunknowable\u201d or \u201cunknown.\u201d If we thought that and attributed qualities to \u201cwho knows what\u201d then I agree, it would be absurd, but since we don\u2019t believe that, we don\u2019t do what you describe. You<\/em>\u00a0think He is unknowable and you<\/em>\u00a0don\u2019t know Him, so for you it makes sense to not describe what you don\u2019t know.<\/span><\/p>\n

You expressly imply that we do these silly things by stating,<\/span> \u201cThe difference<\/em>\u00a0between us and theists is that we<\/em><\/span>\u00a0[unlike them] don\u2019t attribute qualities (i.e. invent convenient facts) and attribute them to the unknowable.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

This makes us look like gullible idiots and simpletons, which is the usual atheist modus operandi and opinion.<\/span><\/p>\n

I haven\u2019t \u201ctold\u201d anyone how to live their life. I don\u2019t have that \u201cright.\u201d That\u2019s ridiculous. I have<\/em>\u00a0explained what Catholic morality or general Christian moral teaching holds, and why we believe in these things.<\/span><\/p>\n

But of course we Christians have now been forced to accept a radical redefinition of marriage that contradicts what we believe. When that happens, we are conscientious objectors to the law, just as we are against legal childkilling and torture that takes place with 3,000+ babies every day in America. So, you wanna talk about being forced to live a certain way?: how about being forced to forfeit your life even before you see the light of day? That<\/em> is being forced or coerced.<\/span><\/p>\n

I care about what atheists think because I care about what all\u00a0<\/em>people think, because I care about all people<\/em>, and have Good News to share with them.<\/span><\/p>\n

I usually haven\u2019t sought out atheists here. They keep coming here to comment, and so I talk to \u2019em, because I enjoy it (atheists usually being very sharp people, and obviously challenging to me as a Christian).<\/span><\/p>\n

And I love to debate. I have about 800 debates posted online.<\/span><\/p>\n

But you make a blog post titled \u201cAtheists\u2019 Worldviews (Deep Mystery?)\u201d???<\/span><\/p>\n

Yep. It was because JGravelle came to my blog and made some comments that I thought were worthwhile to respond to. He came here<\/em>, to me. I didn\u2019t go seek him<\/em> out (if he even has a website): precisely as I stated above.\u00a0And then I made a new post consisting of our interaction.<\/span><\/p>\n

Um. Yeah\u2026well, we don\u2019t have a leader\u2026we don\u2019t have a rulebook, and while we generally disagree on nearly everything, we DO have a unifying philosophy: Humanism-where whoever makes the best rational argument about what benefits all of humanity wins. If mystified by our worldview, just ask us to explain. Thanks.<\/span><\/p>\n

Here\u2019s my worldview, it\u2019s simple : don\u2019t be sadistic, don\u2019t be focused on money\u2026don\u2019t be dumb. a.k.a. Wheaton\u2019s Law. Easy Peasy.<\/span><\/p>\n

When atheists\/humanists find examples of Christians being sadistic, venal and dumb, that\u2019s somehow \u201cbad\u201d? You should be glad someone is drawing attention to abuses committed in the name of your faith. But usually you folks just circle the wagons and knowingly hide your misdeeds. Atheists think theists treat us like we\u2019re stupid too. This is the usual Christian modus operandi and opinion.<\/span><\/p>\n

Can you blame atheists for thinking Christian folks spend all their time lying to themselves? Why should we trust you? Especially about \u201cpresences\u201d that only\u00a0you<\/i>\u00a0can see and feel?<\/span><\/p>\n

You think we spend all our time lying to ourselves and being fundamentally dishonest? Or is that just what most atheists think, and you dissent from the charge?<\/span><\/p>\n

I have posts here defending atheists against unjust charges from Christians. I oppose such treatment.<\/span><\/p>\n

Dave, I can\u2019t speak for all atheists any more than you speak to all Catholics. This is a loaded question (i.e. are you still beating your wife?). No matter how I answer, it\u2019ll be wrong. This isn\u2019t my first time at the rodeo.<\/span><\/p>\n

I\u2019d be impressed if the Catholic rank and file explained why they tolerated the existence of a pedophile ring under their noses for probably millenia. Or the free hookers in the Vatican. No church should be above the law. Atheists aren\u2019t\u2026.we have our criminals too\u2026.but we regularly and viciously criticize our own, we demand transparency and we don\u2019t shelter our criminals from justice.<\/span><\/p>\n

Being in a nation where gay non-Christians can marry somehow diminishes you as Christians\u2026but sheltering pedophiles doesn\u2019t? Seriously?<\/span><\/p>\n

See the many links I have collected<\/a> about the sex scandal.<\/span><\/p>\n

You say I asked a loaded question. It wasn\u2019t in the slightest. You wrote:<\/span> \u201cCan you blame atheists for thinking Christian folks spend all their time lying to themselves?\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

So I was curious if this was your own opinion or if it was only a \u201csociological\u201d remark.<\/span><\/p>\n

And you still didn\u2019t answer. I suppose, though, that if\u00a0<\/em>you think I am an inveterate liar, simply by virtue of being a Christian, it\u2019ll come out soon enough. You won\u2019t be able to hide it.<\/span><\/p>\n

I think being in denial can be a form of lying to oneself. I won\u2019t question your awareness of RCC malfeasance any further. It\u2019s a great list and I intend to read it all when I can.<\/span><\/p>\n

Dave, I don\u2019t hate or dislike you\u2026. you seem like someone fun to have an adult beverage or a doob with. But your chosen religion scares me\u2026..so much hate and hypocrisy would scare anyone. I am mystified why it gives you comfort\u2026.or anyone else.<\/span><\/p>\n

I care about freedom. Freedom means not living in fear of an omnipresent peeping Tom who hates humanity simply for being human.<\/span><\/p>\n

My mother was a Catholic. I asked her about the hypocrisy and bigotry, and her knee jerk reaction was the apologetics. When I told her I was gay, she distanced herself at a time when I needed her most. What does it take to make a mother stop loving her son? It took religion. We are now close again. The Vatican brainwashing robbed us of almost 20 years together. I despise your theology for bringing my family and millions of other families to the brink of ruin and beyond.<\/span><\/p>\n

I don\u2019t care about God (God doesnt exist, so why should I?) but I despise religion and am much happier without it.<\/span><\/p>\n

I\u2019m fully Catholic and I don\u2019t hate anyone. I love all people, even people in ISIS.<\/span><\/p>\n

The presence of bad (or fallible, sinning, hypocritical) people in a particular group doesn\u2019t prove that the group as a whole is a \u201chate group.\u201d All it proves is that \u201cPerson X in Group Y fell short in attribute Z, which Group Y teaches.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

Period.<\/span><\/p>\n

I can also love people I disagree with. I know that is a novel, \u201cbizarre\u201d concept today but it is perfectly possible.<\/span><\/p>\n

Your mother couldn\u2019t do that for twenty years. And you think that somehow has something to do with me<\/em>? I\u2019m not her<\/em>! My religion doesn\u2019t teach the behavior she extended to you.<\/span><\/p>\n

Nor did she have to leave Catholicism to figure out that she had to love her son.<\/span><\/p>\n

What do you expect me (us) to say? \u201cSome Catholics were hypocrites; therefore the entire religion is hogwash<\/em> and untrue<\/em>\u201c?<\/span><\/p>\n

Like that<\/em> makes any sense?<\/span><\/p>\n

Emotional arguments against anything never accomplish what they claim to accomplish, because they\u2019re not logical.<\/span><\/p>\n

BeaverTales later wrote, replying to John<\/a>:<\/span><\/p>\n

When someone asks my opinion, I tell them what I think. I don\u2019t have to ask the Holy See, my mommy, my daddy or Santa Claus if it is okay to love someone, whether a sibling, child or parent or life partner. It\u2019s tough to explain to someone with Stockholm syndrome that love and real freedom don\u2019t come with a set of bizarre conditions required to save your soul.<\/span><\/p>\n

You realize atheistic humanists have emotional lives too, right? We seek comfort and nurturing from other humans, not from deities, spirits, angels or demons. I bet if I took a bath in \u201choly\u201d water or with the evil kind that comes from the tap, I\u2019ll be just as clean either way. Do I have evidence? No, but I\u2019m willing to test the hypothesis.<\/span><\/p>\n

How many atheists do you know intimately? I was raised by a Catholic woman. I\u2019ve had more than enough Catholic mystery in my life. I don\u2019t need magic ideas to have a meaningful life. Reality is far more liberating than living out someone else\u2019s fantasies, superstitions or theology. That was my mother\u2019s hypothesis\u2026her biggest regret now is that she didn\u2019t do it a lot sooner.<\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cPineCone\u201d<\/a> gave a superb reply, which I fully endorse and agree 100% with:<\/span><\/p>\n

How do you know John has Stockholm syndrome?<\/span> [link<\/a>]<\/p>\n

Are you a mental health expert? What if John goes to a mental health expert and is not diagnosed with Stockholm syndrome? Should he trust the expert with an education from a prestigious college and other credentials? Or some guy named \u201cBeaver\u201d in a comment section of a blogging network dedicated to discussion about faith and religion?<\/span><\/p>\n

It is possible you are wrong about John having Stockholm syndrome. And if we prove you are, by sending John to The Menninger Clinic, having him rigorously tested and sending you an official decree that he is mentally sound, would you see our dilemma? Do you know how hard it is to talk to someone who has misdiagnosed you as having a mental disorder? Especially when that person uses that misdiagnosis to further their argument and expresses no sympathy to the fact that they believe you have a mental disorder that needs treatment.<\/span><\/p>\n

I know atheists very intimately. In fact I was an atheist for about 20 years of my life. And most of it was spent in the Bible Belt. And I\u2019ve had family members who were not religious or anti-religious that did things similar to what your mother does. It isn\u2019t just a Catholic or religious trait.<\/span><\/p>\n

And I grew up in an era when ridiculing homosexuals was part of the secular culture. I was a part of the counter-culture\/punk rock scene. There was a lot of music that was a) anti-religious and b) anti-homosexual. Look at hip hop music. I went to a very secular public school. There were lots of anti-homosexual sentiments being shared. Some jokingly, but some sincerely.<\/span><\/p>\n

I\u2019m sorry you had a rough time with your mother. I\u2019ve had bad experiences with family members, too. Some that were religious \u2013 and that does turn me off to some aspects of religion. And some that were with people that were not religious, or even anti-religious.<\/span><\/p>\n

Anyway, good luck with your Stockholm syndrome hypothesis. If you find a way to test this hypothesis and it turns out you are wrong \u2013 how different are you treating John in comparison to how your mother treated you?<\/span><\/p>\n

And if you are wrong \u2013 who are you to be preaching at other people about reality? From where I sit it sounds like you are asking people to believe that you have exclusive access to reality.<\/span><\/p>\n

Also, it sounds like you are holding onto resentments from the past. And it may be manifesting itself in unhealthy ways. And this is something I am guilty of myself. It is something I work on everyday. And I just wanted to let you know, for me, resentments are toxic.<\/span><\/p>\n<\/body><\/html>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

Image by \u201cKAZ Vorpal\u201d (9-15-15) [Flickr \/ CC BY-SA 2.0 license] * * * The following \u201cbrass tacks\u201d and exceptionally straightforward exchange took place in the combox of my post,\u00a0Atheists\u2019 Worldviews (Deep Mystery?). The words of BeaverTales will be in blue. * * * * * We are empiricists. I think most atheist won\u2019t deny […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2331,"featured_media":4761,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[124],"tags":[267,258,1509,1510,1513,1512,1511,343,356,253,98],"class_list":["post-4756","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-atheism-agnosticism","tag-agnosticism","tag-atheism","tag-coercion","tag-freedom-of-expression","tag-homophobia","tag-hypocrisy","tag-hypocrites","tag-persecution","tag-religious-freedom","tag-theistic-arguments","tag-tolerance"],"yoast_head":"\nREAL Back-and-Forth Discussion with an Ex-Catholic Gay Atheist<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"I had a "brass tacks" and exceptionally straightforward exchange with this gay atheist: pretty rare with regard to this topic, when people disagree.\" \/>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, max-snippet:-1, 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Formerly a campus missionary, as a Protestant, Dave was received into the Catholic Church in February 1991, by the late, well-known catechist and theologian, Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave\u2019s articles have appeared in many influential Catholic periodicals, including \\\"This Rock\\\" (now called \\\"Catholic Answers Magazine\\\"), \\\"Envoy Magazine\\\" (Patrick Madrid), \\\"The Catholic Answer,\\\" \\\"The Coming Home Journal,\\\" \\\"Gilbert Magazine\\\" (American Chesterton Society), and \\\"The Latin Mass.\\\" He also writes a featured column for every issue of \\\"The Michigan Catholic\\\": published by the archdiocese of Detroit, and was editor for most of the apologetics tracts published by the St. Paul Street Evangelization apostolate. Dave\u2019s apologetics and writing apostolate was the subject of a feature article in the May 2002 issue of \\\"Envoy Magazine.\\\" He served as the staff moderator at the Internet discussion forum for The Coming Home Network, from 2007-2010. Dave has been interviewed on many nationally syndicated Catholic radio shows, including \\\"Catholic Answers Live\\\" (twice), \\\"Faith and Family Live\\\" (Steve Wood), \\\"Kresta in the Afternoon,\\\" \\\"Son Rise Morning Show,\\\" \\\"Catholic Connection\\\" (Teresa Tomeo), and \\\"The Catholics Next Door.\\\" His large and popular website, \\\"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism,\\\" was online from March 1997 to March 2007, and received the 1998 Catholic Website of the Year award from \\\"Envoy Magazine.\\\" His blog of the same name (now transferred to Patheos), begun in February 2004, contains more than 1,500 papers, at least 500 debates or dialogues, and over 50 distinct \\\"index\\\" web pages. Unsolicited correspondence has indicated many hundreds of conversions (or returns) to the Catholic faith as a result, by God's grace, of these writings. Dave's conversion story was published in the bestselling book \\\"Surprised by Truth\\\" (edited by Patrick Madrid; San Diego: Basilica Press, 1994). Sophia Institute Press has published six of his books: \\\"A Biblical Defense of Catholicism\\\" (Foreword by Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J., 1996 \/ 2003), \\\"The Catholic Verses\\\" (2004), \\\"The One-Minute Apologist\\\" (2007), \\\"Bible Proofs for Catholic Truths\\\" (2009), \\\"The Quotable Newman\\\" (editor: 2012), and \\\"Proving the Catholic Faith is Biblical\\\" (2015). He is co-author (with Dr. Paul Thigpen) of the inserts for \\\"The New Catholic Answer Bible\\\" (Our Sunday Visitor: 2005), and editor for \\\"The Wisdom of Mr. Chesterton: The Very Best Quotes, Quips, and Cracks from the Pen of G. K. Chesterton\\\" (Saint Benedict Press \/ TAN Books: 2009). \\\"100 Biblical Arguments Against Sola Scriptura\\\" was published by Catholic Answers in May 2012. His \\\"Quotable Wesley\\\" compilation was published by (Protestant \/ Wesleyan publisher) Beacon Hill Press in April 2014. Several of his 49 books are bestsellers in their field. Dave maintains a popular personal Facebook page, a Facebook author page, and has a Twitter account as well. He offers almost all of his books in e-book form on his own Biblical Catholicism site (http:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/), at a permanent deep discount: only $2.99 for ePub, mobi, and AZW, and $1.99 for PDF. His writing has been enthusiastically endorsed or recommended by many leading Catholic apologists, authors, and priests, including Dr. Scott Hahn, Fr. Peter M. J. Stravinskas, Marcus Grodi, Patrick Madrid, Steve Ray, Tim Staples, Devin Rose, Mike Aquilina, Al Kresta, Karl Keating, Fr. Dwight Longenecker, Brandon Vogt, Marcellino D'Ambrosio, and Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave has been happily married to his wife Judy since October 1984. 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Formerly a campus missionary, as a Protestant, Dave was received into the Catholic Church in February 1991, by the late, well-known catechist and theologian, Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave\u2019s articles have appeared in many influential Catholic periodicals, including \"This Rock\" (now called \"Catholic Answers Magazine\"), \"Envoy Magazine\" (Patrick Madrid), \"The Catholic Answer,\" \"The Coming Home Journal,\" \"Gilbert Magazine\" (American Chesterton Society), and \"The Latin Mass.\" He also writes a featured column for every issue of \"The Michigan Catholic\": published by the archdiocese of Detroit, and was editor for most of the apologetics tracts published by the St. Paul Street Evangelization apostolate. Dave\u2019s apologetics and writing apostolate was the subject of a feature article in the May 2002 issue of \"Envoy Magazine.\" He served as the staff moderator at the Internet discussion forum for The Coming Home Network, from 2007-2010. Dave has been interviewed on many nationally syndicated Catholic radio shows, including \"Catholic Answers Live\" (twice), \"Faith and Family Live\" (Steve Wood), \"Kresta in the Afternoon,\" \"Son Rise Morning Show,\" \"Catholic Connection\" (Teresa Tomeo), and \"The Catholics Next Door.\" His large and popular website, \"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism,\" was online from March 1997 to March 2007, and received the 1998 Catholic Website of the Year award from \"Envoy Magazine.\" His blog of the same name (now transferred to Patheos), begun in February 2004, contains more than 1,500 papers, at least 500 debates or dialogues, and over 50 distinct \"index\" web pages. Unsolicited correspondence has indicated many hundreds of conversions (or returns) to the Catholic faith as a result, by God's grace, of these writings. Dave's conversion story was published in the bestselling book \"Surprised by Truth\" (edited by Patrick Madrid; San Diego: Basilica Press, 1994). Sophia Institute Press has published six of his books: \"A Biblical Defense of Catholicism\" (Foreword by Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J., 1996 \/ 2003), \"The Catholic Verses\" (2004), \"The One-Minute Apologist\" (2007), \"Bible Proofs for Catholic Truths\" (2009), \"The Quotable Newman\" (editor: 2012), and \"Proving the Catholic Faith is Biblical\" (2015). He is co-author (with Dr. Paul Thigpen) of the inserts for \"The New Catholic Answer Bible\" (Our Sunday Visitor: 2005), and editor for \"The Wisdom of Mr. Chesterton: The Very Best Quotes, Quips, and Cracks from the Pen of G. K. Chesterton\" (Saint Benedict Press \/ TAN Books: 2009). \"100 Biblical Arguments Against Sola Scriptura\" was published by Catholic Answers in May 2012. His \"Quotable Wesley\" compilation was published by (Protestant \/ Wesleyan publisher) Beacon Hill Press in April 2014. Several of his 49 books are bestsellers in their field. Dave maintains a popular personal Facebook page, a Facebook author page, and has a Twitter account as well. He offers almost all of his books in e-book form on his own Biblical Catholicism site (http:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/), at a permanent deep discount: only $2.99 for ePub, mobi, and AZW, and $1.99 for PDF. His writing has been enthusiastically endorsed or recommended by many leading Catholic apologists, authors, and priests, including Dr. Scott Hahn, Fr. Peter M. J. Stravinskas, Marcus Grodi, Patrick Madrid, Steve Ray, Tim Staples, Devin Rose, Mike Aquilina, Al Kresta, Karl Keating, Fr. Dwight Longenecker, Brandon Vogt, Marcellino D'Ambrosio, and Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave has been happily married to his wife Judy since October 1984. They have three sons and a daughter, and reside in southeast Michigan (metro Detroit).","sameAs":["https:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/","https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/dave.armstrong.798","https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/@LuxVeritatisApologetics"],"url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/author\/davearmstrong"}]}},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/4756","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/2331"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=4756"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/4756\/revisions"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/4761"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=4756"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=4756"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=4756"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}