{"id":47872,"date":"2020-05-21T16:25:21","date_gmt":"2020-05-21T20:25:21","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/admin.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/?p=47872"},"modified":"2020-05-21T18:33:45","modified_gmt":"2020-05-21T22:33:45","slug":"my-four-ballyhooed-debates-w-anti-catholics-all-forfeited","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2020\/05\/my-four-ballyhooed-debates-w-anti-catholics-all-forfeited.html","title":{"rendered":"My Four Ballyhooed Debates w Anti-Catholics (All Forfeited)"},"content":{"rendered":"\n<\/head>

My Opponent Split Before It Was Over, Every Time (!)\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n

\"\"<\/p>\n

This just occurred to me, after writing two papers in response to the anti-Catholic polemicist Jason Engwer, whom I have sparred with as early as 2000.<\/p>\n

I can recall four times where some anti-Catholic was gonna put me in my place and refute me and shut me up once and for all, and (whaddya know!) it never happened. In fact, they wound up fleeing for the hills before the encounter was anywhere near finished.<\/p>\n

It would be like a boxer \u201cthrowing in the towel\u201d as they say, after 4 1\/2 rounds of a 12-round fight. He just gave up, or forfeited. No one could possibly say that he prevailed in the match, if he did that. And so it is with these theological debates. If they split, they have clearly lost the debate. No one would think otherwise.<\/p>\n

1) James White: \u201cPostal Debate\u201d of March-May 1995<\/span><\/strong><\/p>\n

This is the very in-depth and intense debate on many topics, that went back an forth in the US mail, before I was on the Internet. It takes up about 100 pages in my book, Debating James White<\/em><\/a>. Both of us sent typewritten replies. I have them all in my possession.<\/p>\n

Lo and behold, we went through two rounds (me \/ him \/ me \/ him), and then I wrote what would have been the beginning of a third round: a 36-page, single-spaced reply. White decided to utterly ignore it. Six days ago (May 15th), it was the 25th anniversary of my reply that he never even tried to refute, and has not remotely touched these past 25 years. So he forfeited the debate. It\u2019s as simple as that.<\/p>\n

Anyone can read the whole thing<\/a> on my blog.\u00a0It\u2019s there word-for-word (with White\u2019s permission at the time), whereas James White has never published any part of it or linked to mine, and even denies that it is any sort of \u201cdebate\u201d at all. Very telling, isn\u2019t it?<\/p>\n

2) Tim Enloe: \u201cLive Chat\u201d Debate in James White\u2019s Chat Room (29 December 2000)<\/span><\/strong><\/p>\n

Tim was an interesting guy. He was going like gangbusters for several years (very colorfully and prolix), with particular animus and zeal towards refuting me. At length, some years ago now, he decided to end his active contra-Catholic polemics (he\u2019s not really an anti-Catholic, as he allows that Catholics are Christians).<\/p>\n

Back in December 2000 he was still quite gung-ho and we meticulously planned this \u201cchat debate\u201d which is a live and spontaneous back-and-forth: and it was in anti-Catholic territory, with all those folks (James White\u2019s following) watching. If I recall correctly, it was about whether Catholics are Christians.<\/p>\n

Well, we went back-and-forth for a while (I think it was maybe 45 minutes), and Tim just quit all of a sudden. He seemed to think he was doing a lousy job and didn\u2019t want to attempt it any longer.<\/p>\n

I don\u2019t have this preserved because one day Tim made a statement that I would never remove all the debates we had had and other papers of mine about him. So I did just that. But it happened, and I would be able to retrieve it from Internet Archive if someone challenged me about it.<\/p>\n

3) James White: \u201cLive Chat\u201d Debate on Marty and the Church Fathers in James White\u2019s Chat Room (29 December 2000)<\/span><\/strong><\/p>\n

After Tim\u2019s collapse \/ forfeit, James White stepped right in, trying to salvage the fiasco for the Protestants. He asked if I would like to chat and I agreed: even though I was obviously totally unprepared and had no idea what the topic would even be (a clear initial advantage for Bishop White). White quickly turned the subject to the Blessed Virgin Mary (likely thinking that was where my argument \u2014 especially without any notes or preparation \u2014 would be the weakest).<\/p>\n

Typically of him, he came at me with all he had, with rapid-fire shots, one after another. At first I was a bit taken aback, but eventually I started to get my bearings and I believe I got the better of him, and started trapping him with some questions that he couldn\u2019t answer. It was our only \u201clive\u201d encounter before an audience ever. If anyone wants to see what happened when me and White went head-to-head \u201clive\u201d: this is it!<\/p>\n

So what happened then? Well, it was claimed that technical problems caused White to not be able to connect and debate any longer. Maybe, but then again, maybe not. If I may be cynical and speculate a bit: perhaps the prospect of getting his butt kicked in a debate with me<\/strong><\/em> (a person he had already despised and detested for five years) was simply too horrifying to contemplate and something had to be done.<\/p>\n

I stayed in the room (his<\/em><\/strong> venue, remember) for several more hours, chatting.\u00a0All of this is online on my site, word-for-word<\/a> (needless to say, White has never published it on his website). Make your own judgment.\u00a0That was bad and embarrassing enough for Bishop White. But when I added \u201cnotes\u201d to the debate a few days after, it really<\/em><\/strong> ticked him off. That was a naughty no-no. I don\u2019t see why. I played his game: live, spontaneous back-and-forth, with no<\/em><\/strong> preparation at all on my part. Now this was my<\/em> <\/strong>realm: written analysis, which goes much deeper.<\/p>\n

Later, I also analyzed his response even more<\/em> deeply, showing how he used dishonest, sophistical tactics<\/a> in order to \u201cscore cheap points\u201d.<\/p>\n

4) Jason Engwer: Big CARM Debate About Sola Scriptura<\/em> and the Church Fathers (July 2003)<\/span><\/strong><\/p>\n

This was a much publicized confrontation, advertised at CARM: which was the largest Protestant (and virulently anti-Catholic) discussion forum on the Internet: and remains so now. Again, I was gonna be put in my place by the Great Protestant Hope: Jason Engwer: who has remained active, blogging on Steve Hays\u2019s site, Tribalblogue<\/em>.<\/p>\n

The debate was about ten Church Fathers and what they taught about the rule of faith: i.e., did they teach sola Scriptura<\/em>? As I described it in a new introduction dated 11-20-15:<\/p>\n

Jason hedged and hawed and avoided direct argumentation with me (interaction with my arguments) from the beginning. He started in with the personal insults early on. It\u2019s been that way in all the attempted debates I have had with him through the years. It\u2019s what anti-Catholics do when they get with Catholics who can defend their faith.<\/p>\n

It was so bad that out of the ten Church fathers originally to be debated, Jason dealt with only four and then decided to split from the debate (much to the disappointment of his fans). I continued on analyzing all ten. I had predicted that he would leave, five days before it happened. I could see the writing on the wall, and so observed:<\/p>\n

\u2018One could not be blamed for thinking that you are setting the stage for your potential departure from this discussion. If you do run, the reason has already been given: I am an ignoramus, in over my head, and \u201ceveryone knows this\u201d and this is why no one wants to dialogue with me, my paper has little of worth for you to spend your precious time, etc., etc. This is standard methodology people use for avoiding defending their propositions (and well known in political campaigning and rhetoric): immediately attack the person as ignorant, incompetent, not worth the time, and so forth. So if you leave, that is the reason (so you say), not, of course, because you are unable (and hence unwilling) to answer the substantive charges.\u2019<\/p>\n

Five days later, Jason made a prophet out of me!<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

See the truncated semi-\u201cdebate\u201d: Part One<\/a> \/ Part Two<\/a>:<\/p>\n

Engwer (oddly enough) never posted this debate on his website, either (we detect a certain pattern<\/em> by now, don\u2019t we?).<\/p>\n

Someone once classically observed: \u201cif you can\u2019t beat \u2019em, join \u2019em!\u201d Not for these anti-Catholic so-called \u201cchampions.\u201d Their philosophy seems to be, rather, \u201cif you can\u2019t beat \u2019em, flee for the hills<\/em> and then pretend the whole thing never happened, by completely ignoring it, with endless insults.\u201d<\/p>\n

***<\/p>\n

\u00a0<\/p>\n<\/body><\/html>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

My Opponent Split Before It Was Over, Every Time (!)\u00a0 This just occurred to me, after writing two papers in response to the anti-Catholic polemicist Jason Engwer, whom I have sparred with as early as 2000. I can recall four times where some anti-Catholic was gonna put me in my place and refute me and […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2331,"featured_media":48005,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[231,1068],"tags":[855,2361,341,4836,3715,2366,1500],"class_list":["post-47872","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-anti-catholicism","category-james-white","tag-anti-catholic","tag-anti-catholicism","tag-anti-catholics","tag-carm","tag-catholic-protestant-debates","tag-james-white","tag-jason-engwer"],"yoast_head":"\nMy Four Ballyhooed Debates w Anti-Catholics (All Forfeited)<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"Four times I engaged in big debates with anti-Catholics (two of them with massive planning & advertising ahead of time): James White, Jason Engwer, & Tim Enloe. 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Unsolicited correspondence has indicated many hundreds of conversions (or returns) to the Catholic faith as a result, by God's grace, of these writings. Dave's conversion story was published in the bestselling book \\\"Surprised by Truth\\\" (edited by Patrick Madrid; San Diego: Basilica Press, 1994). Sophia Institute Press has published six of his books: \\\"A Biblical Defense of Catholicism\\\" (Foreword by Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J., 1996 \/ 2003), \\\"The Catholic Verses\\\" (2004), \\\"The One-Minute Apologist\\\" (2007), \\\"Bible Proofs for Catholic Truths\\\" (2009), \\\"The Quotable Newman\\\" (editor: 2012), and \\\"Proving the Catholic Faith is Biblical\\\" (2015). He is co-author (with Dr. Paul Thigpen) of the inserts for \\\"The New Catholic Answer Bible\\\" (Our Sunday Visitor: 2005), and editor for \\\"The Wisdom of Mr. Chesterton: The Very Best Quotes, Quips, and Cracks from the Pen of G. K. Chesterton\\\" (Saint Benedict Press \/ TAN Books: 2009). \\\"100 Biblical Arguments Against Sola Scriptura\\\" was published by Catholic Answers in May 2012. His \\\"Quotable Wesley\\\" compilation was published by (Protestant \/ Wesleyan publisher) Beacon Hill Press in April 2014. Several of his 49 books are bestsellers in their field. Dave maintains a popular personal Facebook page, a Facebook author page, and has a Twitter account as well. He offers almost all of his books in e-book form on his own Biblical Catholicism site (http:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/), at a permanent deep discount: only $2.99 for ePub, mobi, and AZW, and $1.99 for PDF. His writing has been enthusiastically endorsed or recommended by many leading Catholic apologists, authors, and priests, including Dr. Scott Hahn, Fr. Peter M. J. Stravinskas, Marcus Grodi, Patrick Madrid, Steve Ray, Tim Staples, Devin Rose, Mike Aquilina, Al Kresta, Karl Keating, Fr. Dwight Longenecker, Brandon Vogt, Marcellino D'Ambrosio, and Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave has been happily married to his wife Judy since October 1984. They have three sons and a daughter, and reside in southeast Michigan (metro Detroit).\",\"sameAs\":[\"https:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/\",\"https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/dave.armstrong.798\",\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/@LuxVeritatisApologetics\"],\"url\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/author\/davearmstrong\"}]}<\/script>\n<!-- \/ Yoast SEO plugin. -->","yoast_head_json":{"title":"My Four Ballyhooed Debates w Anti-Catholics (All Forfeited)","description":"Four times I engaged in big debates with anti-Catholics (two of them with massive planning & advertising ahead of time): James White, Jason Engwer, & Tim Enloe. 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Formerly a campus missionary, as a Protestant, Dave was received into the Catholic Church in February 1991, by the late, well-known catechist and theologian, Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave\u2019s articles have appeared in many influential Catholic periodicals, including \"This Rock\" (now called \"Catholic Answers Magazine\"), \"Envoy Magazine\" (Patrick Madrid), \"The Catholic Answer,\" \"The Coming Home Journal,\" \"Gilbert Magazine\" (American Chesterton Society), and \"The Latin Mass.\" He also writes a featured column for every issue of \"The Michigan Catholic\": published by the archdiocese of Detroit, and was editor for most of the apologetics tracts published by the St. Paul Street Evangelization apostolate. Dave\u2019s apologetics and writing apostolate was the subject of a feature article in the May 2002 issue of \"Envoy Magazine.\" He served as the staff moderator at the Internet discussion forum for The Coming Home Network, from 2007-2010. Dave has been interviewed on many nationally syndicated Catholic radio shows, including \"Catholic Answers Live\" (twice), \"Faith and Family Live\" (Steve Wood), \"Kresta in the Afternoon,\" \"Son Rise Morning Show,\" \"Catholic Connection\" (Teresa Tomeo), and \"The Catholics Next Door.\" His large and popular website, \"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism,\" was online from March 1997 to March 2007, and received the 1998 Catholic Website of the Year award from \"Envoy Magazine.\" His blog of the same name (now transferred to Patheos), begun in February 2004, contains more than 1,500 papers, at least 500 debates or dialogues, and over 50 distinct \"index\" web pages. Unsolicited correspondence has indicated many hundreds of conversions (or returns) to the Catholic faith as a result, by God's grace, of these writings. Dave's conversion story was published in the bestselling book \"Surprised by Truth\" (edited by Patrick Madrid; San Diego: Basilica Press, 1994). Sophia Institute Press has published six of his books: \"A Biblical Defense of Catholicism\" (Foreword by Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J., 1996 \/ 2003), \"The Catholic Verses\" (2004), \"The One-Minute Apologist\" (2007), \"Bible Proofs for Catholic Truths\" (2009), \"The Quotable Newman\" (editor: 2012), and \"Proving the Catholic Faith is Biblical\" (2015). He is co-author (with Dr. Paul Thigpen) of the inserts for \"The New Catholic Answer Bible\" (Our Sunday Visitor: 2005), and editor for \"The Wisdom of Mr. Chesterton: The Very Best Quotes, Quips, and Cracks from the Pen of G. K. Chesterton\" (Saint Benedict Press \/ TAN Books: 2009). \"100 Biblical Arguments Against Sola Scriptura\" was published by Catholic Answers in May 2012. His \"Quotable Wesley\" compilation was published by (Protestant \/ Wesleyan publisher) Beacon Hill Press in April 2014. Several of his 49 books are bestsellers in their field. Dave maintains a popular personal Facebook page, a Facebook author page, and has a Twitter account as well. He offers almost all of his books in e-book form on his own Biblical Catholicism site (http:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/), at a permanent deep discount: only $2.99 for ePub, mobi, and AZW, and $1.99 for PDF. His writing has been enthusiastically endorsed or recommended by many leading Catholic apologists, authors, and priests, including Dr. Scott Hahn, Fr. Peter M. J. Stravinskas, Marcus Grodi, Patrick Madrid, Steve Ray, Tim Staples, Devin Rose, Mike Aquilina, Al Kresta, Karl Keating, Fr. Dwight Longenecker, Brandon Vogt, Marcellino D'Ambrosio, and Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave has been happily married to his wife Judy since October 1984. They have three sons and a daughter, and reside in southeast Michigan (metro Detroit).","sameAs":["https:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/","https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/dave.armstrong.798","https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/@LuxVeritatisApologetics"],"url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/author\/davearmstrong"}]}},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/47872","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/2331"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=47872"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/47872\/revisions"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/48005"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=47872"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=47872"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=47872"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}