\n
(12-29-06)<\/p>\n
[all passages RSV]<\/p>\n
* * * * *<\/p>\n
1. \u201cCloud of Witnesses\u201d \u2013 Hebrews 12:1<\/span><\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n. . . we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses . . .<\/span><\/p>\nWord Studies in the New Testament<\/span>\u00a0(Marvin R. Vincent, Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1980; originally 1887; Vol. 4, p. 536), a famous, standard Protestant reference work, comments on this verse as follows:<\/span><\/p>\n\u2018Witnesses\u2019 does not mean spectators [Greek\u00a0martus<\/span>, from which is derived\u00a0martyr<\/span>], but those who have borne witness to the truth, as those enumerated in chapter 11. Yet the idea of spectators is implied, and is really the principal idea. The writer\u2019s picture is that of an arena in which the Christians whom he addresses are contending in a race, while the vast host of the heroes of faith who, after having borne witness to the truth, have entered into their heavenly rest, watches the contest from the encircling tiers of the arena, compassing and overhanging it like a cloud, filled with lively interest and sympathy, and lending heavenly aid.<\/span><\/p><\/blockquote>\nSaints in heaven are therefore aware of, and observe events on earth, \u201cwith lively interest,\u201d as Vincent puts it.<\/span><\/p>\n2. Prayers in Heaven for Those on Earth<\/span><\/div>\nRevelation 6:9-10<\/span>\u00a0. . . I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne; they cried out with a loud voice, \u201cO Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?\u201d<\/span><\/p>\nHere the martyrs in heaven are saying what are known as \u201cimprecatory prayers\u201d: pleas for God to rescue and vindicate the righteous. Examples can be found particularly in the Psalms (Psalms 35, 59, 69, 79, 109, 139) and in Jeremiah (11:18 ff., 15:15 ff., 18:19 ff., 20:11 ff.). An angel offers up a very similar prayer in Zechariah 1:12. Jesus mentions a type of this prayer in Matthew 26:53, in which He stated that He could \u201cpray\u201d to the Father and receive legions of angels to prevent His arrest had it been the Father\u2019s will.<\/span><\/p>\nTherefore dead saints are praying for Christians on earth. If they can intercede for us, then why shouldn\u2019t we ask for their prayers? Clearly, they\u2019re aware of what is happening on earth. They are more alive, unfathomably more righteous, and obviously closer to God than we are.\u00a0Omniscience<\/span>\u00a0isn\u2019t required for them to hear our prayers, as is often charged. Rather, we have reason to believe that they are out of time, by God\u2019s power, because to be in eternity is to be outside of the realm of time. That allows them to answer many requests for prayer because they have an infinite amount of \u201ctime\u201d to do it.<\/span><\/p>\nEven Martin Luther and John Calvin admitted that the saints may be praying for us in heaven:<\/span><\/p>\nAlthough angels in heaven pray for us . . . and although saints on earth, and perhaps also in heaven, do likewise, it does not follow that we should invoke angels and saints.<\/span><\/p>\n(Smalcald Articles<\/span>, 1537, Part II, Article II in Theodore G. Tappert, translator,\u00a0The Book of Concord<\/span>, St. Louis: Concordia Pub. House, 1959, 297)<\/span><\/p>\nI grant they pray for us in this way.<\/span><\/p>\n(Institutes of the Christian Religion<\/span>, III, 20, 24)<\/span><\/p>\nIf so, then how can it be wrong to simply ask dead saints to pray for us, since they are aware of earthly happenings?<\/span><\/p>\n3. Saints and Angels Presenting Our Prayers to God<\/span><\/div>\nRevelation 5:8<\/span>\u00a0. . . the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the\u00a0prayers of the saints.<\/span><\/p>\nRevelation 8:3-4<\/span>\u00a0And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God.\u00a0(cf. Tobit 12:12,15)<\/span><\/p>\nIt\u2019s somewhat unclear whether the twenty-four elders in this scene are angels or men, and commentators differ. References to them clad in white garments, with golden crowns (4:4,10) suggests the view that these elders are glorified human beings (see, for example, 2:10, 3:5,11, 6:11, 7:9,13-14, 2 Timothy 4:8, James 1:12, 1 Peter 5:4). In any event, in both examples above, creatures \u2013 whether men or angels \u2013 are involved with our prayers as intercessory intermediaries, which isn\u2019t supposed to happen according to most versions of Protestant theology, where all prayer goes straight to God with no creature involved other than the one who prays the prayer. What in the world are these creatures doing with \u201cthe prayers of the saints\u201d?<\/span><\/p>\nAlso the deuterocanonical book\u00a02 Maccabees (15:13-14)<\/span>, describes Jeremiah the prophet loving his people after his death and praying for them. since Protestants don\u2019t accept that book as inspired, we might offer them also\u00a0Jeremiah 15:1<\/span>:\u00a0\u201cThen the Lord said to me, \u2018Though Moses and Samuel stood before me, yet my heart would not turn toward this people.'\u201d<\/span><\/p>\nHere it appears that God receives the prayers of the dead saints as a matter of course. Moses and Samuel were both known as intercessors. One could argue that this is only a hypothetical, yet even parables can\u2019t contain something that isn\u2019t true. This mentions a state of affairs which is assumed to be possible (or else why would Jeremiah mention it at all, as coming from God?)<\/span><\/p>\n4. No Contact Between Heaven and Earth?<\/span><\/div>\nA)\u00a01 Samuel 28:12,14-15<\/span>\u00a0(Samuel): the prophet Samuel appeared to King Saul to prophesy his death. The current consensus among biblical commentators (e.g.,\u00a0The New Bible Commentary<\/span>,\u00a0The Wycliffe Bible Commentary<\/span>) is that it was indeed Samuel the prophet, not an impersonating demon (since it happened during a sort of seance with the so-called \u201cwitch or medium of Endor\u201d). This was the view of, e.g., St. Justin Martyr, Origen, and St. Augustine, among others.\u00a0Ecclesiasticus (Sirach) 6:19-20<\/span>\u00a0reinforces the latter interpretation:\u00a0\u201cSamuel . . . after he had fallen asleep he prophesied and revealed to the king his death, and lifted up his voice out of the earth in prophecy, to blot out the wickedness of the people.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\nB)\u00a0Matthew 17:1-3 (the Transfiguration: Moses and Elijah)<\/span>:\u00a0. . . Jesus took with him Peter and James and John his brother, and led them up a high mountain apart. And he was transfigured before them, and his face shone like the sun, and his garments became white as light. And behold, there appeared to them Moses and Elijah, talking with him.\u00a0(see also Mark 9:4 and Luke 9:30-31)<\/span><\/p>\nC)\u00a0Matthew 27:52-53<\/span>(raised bodies after the crucifixion)<\/span>:\u00a0. . . the tombs also were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many.<\/span><\/p>\nD)\u00a0Revelation 11:3,6 (the \u201cTwo Witnesses\u201d)<\/span>:\u00a0And I will grant my two witnesses power to prophesy for one thousand two hundred and sixty days . . . they have power to shut the sky, that no rain may fall . . . and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood, and to smite the earth with every plague . . .<\/span><\/p>\nThese two witnesses are killed (11:7-9), then raised after\u00a0\u201cthree and a half days\u201d\u00a0and\u00a0\u201cstood up on their feet\u201d\u00a0(11:11), and then\u00a0\u201cwent up to heaven in a cloud\u201d\u00a0(11:12). Many Church Fathers thought these two were Enoch and Elijah, because both of them didn\u2019t die; thus this would explain their dying after this appearance on earth. Some Protestant commentators think the two witnesses are Moses and Elijah, because of the parallel to the Transfiguration, and also similarities with the plagues of Egypt and the fact that Elijah also stopped the rain for three-and-a-half years (James 5:17).<\/span><\/p>\nWe must conclude based on the above passages that contact between heaven and earth is God\u2019s will; otherwise He wouldn\u2019t have permitted it in these instances. The Catholic belief in more interconnection between heaven and earth cannot be ruled out as \u201cunbiblical\u201d. One has to try other arguments to refute our beliefs in this regard.<\/span><\/p>\n5. Prayers for the Dead in the New Testament<\/span><\/span><\/div>\nPrayers for the dead are very clearly presented in the deuterocanonical book of\u00a0<\/span>2 Maccabees (12:39-45)<\/span>. Protestants don\u2019t accept that book as part of the Bible, of course, so is there anything about prayers for the dead in the New Testament? It may shock and surprise Protestants to hear it, but yes, there is. I contend that there are three passages:<\/span><\/span><\/p>\nA)\u00a01 Corinthians 15:29<\/span>\u00a0Otherwise, what do people mean by being baptized on behalf of the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized on their behalf?<\/span><\/p>\nProtestants consider this one of the most mysterious and odd passages in the entire Bible. But it really isn\u2019t that difficult to interpret. It\u2019s very similar to\u00a02 Maccabees 12:44<\/span>:\u00a0\u201cIt is superfluous and vain to pray for the dead if the dead rise not again. . . .\u201d\u00a0That gives us our clue as to what Paul means here. In the Bible \u201cbaptism\u201d can describe not just the water ritual but also afflictions and penances (Luke 12:50, Mark 10:38-39, Matthew 3:11, 20:22-23, Luke 3:16). So Paul is saying that we pray and fast and undergo penance for the dead in purgatory precisely because they are resurrected and will live eternally. The \u201cpenance\u201d interpretation is supported contextually by the next three verses, where the Apostle speaks of being in peril every hour, and dying every day. So this is a proof of both purgatory and prayers for the dead.<\/span><\/p>\nB)\u00a02 Timothy 1:16-18<\/span>\u00a0May the Lord grant mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, for he often refreshed me; he was not ashamed of my chains, but when he arrived in Rome he searched for me eagerly and found me \u2013 may the Lord grant him to find mercy from the Lord on that Day \u2013 and you well know all the service he rendered at Ephesus.<\/span><\/p>\nThis is another passage that gives Protestants fits. The problem is that it seems to plainly imply that Paul is praying for a dead man. Yet Protestants can\u2019t accept that practice because of their theology; therefore, they must explain this away somehow. What they do is either deny that Onesiphorus is dead, or that Paul is praying. Most of the nine Protestant commentaries I consulted for this passage seen admit that he was praying, but deny that the person was dead. Some try to say that Paul was merely \u201cwishing\u201d, but I don\u2019t see any difference between that and a prayer: it looks like a word game to avoid the implications. The same commentaries said he was possibly dead (two), take no position (two), think he was \u201cprobably not\u201d dead (one), or deny it (three). A.T. Robertson, the great Baptist Greek scholar, felt that he was \u201capparently\u201d dead and that Paul was \u201cwishing\u201d rather than praying. I think it\u2019s much more plausible to simply take the Catholic position: the man died and Paul was praying for him.<\/span><\/p>\nC)\u00a0Acts 9:36-37,40-41<\/span>:\u00a0Now there was at Joppa a disciple named Tabitha, which means Dorcas . . . In those days she fell sick and died . . . But Peter . . . knelt down and prayed; then turning to the body he said, \u201cTabitha, rise.\u201d And she opened her eyes, and when she saw Peter she sat up. And he gave her his hand and lifted her up. Then calling the saints and widows he presented her alive.<\/span><\/p>\nNow, what would Peter have been praying for?: obviously, that Tabitha would be raised from the dead. So it seems indisputable that St. Peter literally prayed for a dead person, the very thing that Protestants say is not permitted, and supposedly not recorded in the Bible. And Jesus prayed for Lazarus, just before he was raised from the dead, in John 11:41-42 (\u201cFather, I thank thee that thou hast heard me. I knew that thou hearest me always, but I have said this on account of the people standing by, that they may believe that thou didst send me\u201d). The Bible informs us that the disciples raised people from the dead (Mt 11:5, Lk 7:22) and that Jesus told them that they would be able to, and should, do so (Mt 10:8). So they went out and did it. It\u2019s natural to assume that prayer would accompany these extraordinary miracles (because God performs miracles \u2013 thus we ask). So almost certainly they prayed for the dead, too. It\u2019s as simple as that. The prophet Elijah did the same thing in the Old Testament:<\/span><\/p>\nD)\u00a01 Kings 17:21-22<\/span>:\u00a0Then he stretched himself upon the child three times, and cried to the Lord, \u201cO Lord my God, let this child\u2019s soul come into him again.\u201d And the Lord\u00a0hearkened to the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived.<\/span><\/p>\nMartin Luther<\/span>\u00a0and his successor as head of Lutheranism,\u00a0<\/span>Philip Melanchthon<\/span>, accepted prayers for the dead:<\/span><\/p>\nAs for the dead, since Scripture gives us no information on the subject, I regard it as no sin to pray with free devotion in this or some similar fashion: \u201cDear God, if this soul is in a condition accessible to mercy, be thou gracious to it.\u201d<\/span>
\n
\n(Confession Concerning Christ\u2019s Supper<\/span>, 1528, in\u00a0Luther\u2019s Works<\/span>, edited by Jaroslav Pelikan, vol. 37, 369)<\/span>
\n
\n[W]e know that the ancients speak of prayer for the dead, which we do not prohibit . . .<\/span>
\n
\n(Apology to the Augsburg Confession<\/span>: Article XXIV, 94)<\/span><\/p><\/blockquote>\n<\/body><\/html>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"NASA photo [public domain \/ Wikimedia Commons] (12-29-06) [all passages RSV] * * * * * 1. \u201cCloud of Witnesses\u201d \u2013 Hebrews 12:1 . . . we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses . . . Word Studies in the New Testament\u00a0(Marvin R. Vincent, Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1980; originally 1887; Vol. […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2331,"featured_media":4810,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[206],"tags":[201,198,1263,372,195,207,1402,209],"class_list":["post-4808","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-saints-purgatory-penance","tag-communion-of-saints","tag-intercession","tag-intercession-of-saints","tag-invocation-of-saints","tag-prayer","tag-prayer-for-the-dead","tag-prayers-for-the-dead","tag-purgatory-2"],"yoast_head":"\n
Dead Saints: Playing Harps on Clouds or Interceding?<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"Contact between heaven and earth (including dead saints and us) is God's will; otherwise He wouldn't have permitted it in these instances.\" \/>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"noindex, follow\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"en_US\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:type\" content=\"article\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:title\" content=\"Dead Saints: Playing Harps on Clouds or Interceding?\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:description\" content=\"Contact between heaven and earth (including dead saints and us) is God's will; otherwise He wouldn't have permitted it in these instances.\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:url\" content=\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2015\/11\/dead-saints-playing-harps-on-clouds-or-interceding.html\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:site_name\" content=\"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism\" \/>\n<meta property=\"article:published_time\" content=\"2015-11-24T17:18:04+00:00\" \/>\n<meta property=\"article:modified_time\" content=\"2017-04-24T23:42:38+00:00\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:image\" content=\"https:\/\/wp-media.patheos.com\/blogs\/sites\/572\/2015\/11\/SpaceCloud.jpg\" \/>\n\t<meta property=\"og:image:width\" content=\"640\" \/>\n\t<meta property=\"og:image:height\" content=\"480\" \/>\n\t<meta property=\"og:image:type\" content=\"image\/jpeg\" \/>\n<meta name=\"author\" content=\"Dave Armstrong\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:card\" content=\"summary_large_image\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:label1\" content=\"Written by\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:data1\" content=\"Dave Armstrong\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:label2\" content=\"Est. reading time\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:data2\" content=\"11 minutes\" \/>\n<script type=\"application\/ld+json\" class=\"yoast-schema-graph\">{\"@context\":\"https:\/\/schema.org\",\"@graph\":[{\"@type\":\"WebPage\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2015\/11\/dead-saints-playing-harps-on-clouds-or-interceding.html\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2015\/11\/dead-saints-playing-harps-on-clouds-or-interceding.html\",\"name\":\"Dead Saints: Playing Harps on Clouds or Interceding?\",\"isPartOf\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/#website\"},\"datePublished\":\"2015-11-24T17:18:04+00:00\",\"dateModified\":\"2017-04-24T23:42:38+00:00\",\"author\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/#\/schema\/person\/471eaa20e441eca4bb1ea50393cf632e\"},\"description\":\"Contact between heaven and earth (including dead saints and us) is God's will; otherwise He wouldn't have permitted it in these instances.\",\"breadcrumb\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2015\/11\/dead-saints-playing-harps-on-clouds-or-interceding.html#breadcrumb\"},\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\",\"potentialAction\":[{\"@type\":\"ReadAction\",\"target\":[\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2015\/11\/dead-saints-playing-harps-on-clouds-or-interceding.html\"]}]},{\"@type\":\"BreadcrumbList\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2015\/11\/dead-saints-playing-harps-on-clouds-or-interceding.html#breadcrumb\",\"itemListElement\":[{\"@type\":\"ListItem\",\"position\":1,\"name\":\"Home\",\"item\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\"},{\"@type\":\"ListItem\",\"position\":2,\"name\":\"Dead Saints: Playing Harps on Clouds or Interceding?\"}]},{\"@type\":\"WebSite\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/#website\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/\",\"name\":\"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism\",\"description\":\"Catholic biblical apologetics\",\"potentialAction\":[{\"@type\":\"SearchAction\",\"target\":{\"@type\":\"EntryPoint\",\"urlTemplate\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/?s={search_term_string}\"},\"query-input\":\"required name=search_term_string\"}],\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\"},{\"@type\":\"Person\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/#\/schema\/person\/471eaa20e441eca4bb1ea50393cf632e\",\"name\":\"Dave Armstrong\",\"image\":{\"@type\":\"ImageObject\",\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/#\/schema\/person\/image\/\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/secure.gravatar.com\/avatar\/820e6db89734ae7a9e5dac8d498f5ac7?s=96&d=mm&r=g\",\"contentUrl\":\"https:\/\/secure.gravatar.com\/avatar\/820e6db89734ae7a9e5dac8d498f5ac7?s=96&d=mm&r=g\",\"caption\":\"Dave Armstrong\"},\"description\":\"Dave Armstrong is a Catholic author and apologist, who has been actively proclaiming and defending Christianity since 1981, and Catholicism in particular since 1991 (full-time since December 2001). Formerly a campus missionary, as a Protestant, Dave was received into the Catholic Church in February 1991, by the late, well-known catechist and theologian, Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave\u2019s articles have appeared in many influential Catholic periodicals, including \\\"This Rock\\\" (now called \\\"Catholic Answers Magazine\\\"), \\\"Envoy Magazine\\\" (Patrick Madrid), \\\"The Catholic Answer,\\\" \\\"The Coming Home Journal,\\\" \\\"Gilbert Magazine\\\" (American Chesterton Society), and \\\"The Latin Mass.\\\" He also writes a featured column for every issue of \\\"The Michigan Catholic\\\": published by the archdiocese of Detroit, and was editor for most of the apologetics tracts published by the St. Paul Street Evangelization apostolate. Dave\u2019s apologetics and writing apostolate was the subject of a feature article in the May 2002 issue of \\\"Envoy Magazine.\\\" He served as the staff moderator at the Internet discussion forum for The Coming Home Network, from 2007-2010. Dave has been interviewed on many nationally syndicated Catholic radio shows, including \\\"Catholic Answers Live\\\" (twice), \\\"Faith and Family Live\\\" (Steve Wood), \\\"Kresta in the Afternoon,\\\" \\\"Son Rise Morning Show,\\\" \\\"Catholic Connection\\\" (Teresa Tomeo), and \\\"The Catholics Next Door.\\\" His large and popular website, \\\"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism,\\\" was online from March 1997 to March 2007, and received the 1998 Catholic Website of the Year award from \\\"Envoy Magazine.\\\" His blog of the same name (now transferred to Patheos), begun in February 2004, contains more than 1,500 papers, at least 500 debates or dialogues, and over 50 distinct \\\"index\\\" web pages. Unsolicited correspondence has indicated many hundreds of conversions (or returns) to the Catholic faith as a result, by God's grace, of these writings. Dave's conversion story was published in the bestselling book \\\"Surprised by Truth\\\" (edited by Patrick Madrid; San Diego: Basilica Press, 1994). Sophia Institute Press has published six of his books: \\\"A Biblical Defense of Catholicism\\\" (Foreword by Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J., 1996 \/ 2003), \\\"The Catholic Verses\\\" (2004), \\\"The One-Minute Apologist\\\" (2007), \\\"Bible Proofs for Catholic Truths\\\" (2009), \\\"The Quotable Newman\\\" (editor: 2012), and \\\"Proving the Catholic Faith is Biblical\\\" (2015). He is co-author (with Dr. Paul Thigpen) of the inserts for \\\"The New Catholic Answer Bible\\\" (Our Sunday Visitor: 2005), and editor for \\\"The Wisdom of Mr. Chesterton: The Very Best Quotes, Quips, and Cracks from the Pen of G. K. Chesterton\\\" (Saint Benedict Press \/ TAN Books: 2009). \\\"100 Biblical Arguments Against Sola Scriptura\\\" was published by Catholic Answers in May 2012. His \\\"Quotable Wesley\\\" compilation was published by (Protestant \/ Wesleyan publisher) Beacon Hill Press in April 2014. Several of his 49 books are bestsellers in their field. Dave maintains a popular personal Facebook page, a Facebook author page, and has a Twitter account as well. He offers almost all of his books in e-book form on his own Biblical Catholicism site (http:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/), at a permanent deep discount: only $2.99 for ePub, mobi, and AZW, and $1.99 for PDF. His writing has been enthusiastically endorsed or recommended by many leading Catholic apologists, authors, and priests, including Dr. Scott Hahn, Fr. Peter M. J. Stravinskas, Marcus Grodi, Patrick Madrid, Steve Ray, Tim Staples, Devin Rose, Mike Aquilina, Al Kresta, Karl Keating, Fr. Dwight Longenecker, Brandon Vogt, Marcellino D'Ambrosio, and Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave has been happily married to his wife Judy since October 1984. They have three sons and a daughter, and reside in southeast Michigan (metro Detroit).\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/author\/davearmstrong\"}]}<\/script>\n<!-- \/ Yoast SEO plugin. -->","yoast_head_json":{"title":"Dead Saints: Playing Harps on Clouds or Interceding?","description":"Contact between heaven and earth (including dead saints and us) is God's will; otherwise He wouldn't have permitted it in these instances.","robots":{"index":"noindex","follow":"follow"},"og_locale":"en_US","og_type":"article","og_title":"Dead Saints: Playing Harps on Clouds or Interceding?","og_description":"Contact between heaven and earth (including dead saints and us) is God's will; otherwise He wouldn't have permitted it in these instances.","og_url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2015\/11\/dead-saints-playing-harps-on-clouds-or-interceding.html","og_site_name":"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism","article_published_time":"2015-11-24T17:18:04+00:00","article_modified_time":"2017-04-24T23:42:38+00:00","og_image":[{"width":640,"height":480,"url":"https:\/\/wp-media.patheos.com\/blogs\/sites\/572\/2015\/11\/SpaceCloud.jpg","type":"image\/jpeg"}],"author":"Dave Armstrong","twitter_card":"summary_large_image","twitter_misc":{"Written by":"Dave Armstrong","Est. reading time":"11 minutes"},"schema":{"@context":"https:\/\/schema.org","@graph":[{"@type":"WebPage","@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2015\/11\/dead-saints-playing-harps-on-clouds-or-interceding.html","url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2015\/11\/dead-saints-playing-harps-on-clouds-or-interceding.html","name":"Dead Saints: Playing Harps on Clouds or Interceding?","isPartOf":{"@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/#website"},"datePublished":"2015-11-24T17:18:04+00:00","dateModified":"2017-04-24T23:42:38+00:00","author":{"@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/#\/schema\/person\/471eaa20e441eca4bb1ea50393cf632e"},"description":"Contact between heaven and earth (including dead saints and us) is God's will; otherwise He wouldn't have permitted it in these instances.","breadcrumb":{"@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2015\/11\/dead-saints-playing-harps-on-clouds-or-interceding.html#breadcrumb"},"inLanguage":"en-US","potentialAction":[{"@type":"ReadAction","target":["https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2015\/11\/dead-saints-playing-harps-on-clouds-or-interceding.html"]}]},{"@type":"BreadcrumbList","@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2015\/11\/dead-saints-playing-harps-on-clouds-or-interceding.html#breadcrumb","itemListElement":[{"@type":"ListItem","position":1,"name":"Home","item":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong"},{"@type":"ListItem","position":2,"name":"Dead Saints: Playing Harps on Clouds or Interceding?"}]},{"@type":"WebSite","@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/#website","url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/","name":"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism","description":"Catholic biblical apologetics","potentialAction":[{"@type":"SearchAction","target":{"@type":"EntryPoint","urlTemplate":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/?s={search_term_string}"},"query-input":"required name=search_term_string"}],"inLanguage":"en-US"},{"@type":"Person","@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/#\/schema\/person\/471eaa20e441eca4bb1ea50393cf632e","name":"Dave Armstrong","image":{"@type":"ImageObject","inLanguage":"en-US","@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/#\/schema\/person\/image\/","url":"https:\/\/secure.gravatar.com\/avatar\/820e6db89734ae7a9e5dac8d498f5ac7?s=96&d=mm&r=g","contentUrl":"https:\/\/secure.gravatar.com\/avatar\/820e6db89734ae7a9e5dac8d498f5ac7?s=96&d=mm&r=g","caption":"Dave Armstrong"},"description":"Dave Armstrong is a Catholic author and apologist, who has been actively proclaiming and defending Christianity since 1981, and Catholicism in particular since 1991 (full-time since December 2001). Formerly a campus missionary, as a Protestant, Dave was received into the Catholic Church in February 1991, by the late, well-known catechist and theologian, Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave\u2019s articles have appeared in many influential Catholic periodicals, including \"This Rock\" (now called \"Catholic Answers Magazine\"), \"Envoy Magazine\" (Patrick Madrid), \"The Catholic Answer,\" \"The Coming Home Journal,\" \"Gilbert Magazine\" (American Chesterton Society), and \"The Latin Mass.\" He also writes a featured column for every issue of \"The Michigan Catholic\": published by the archdiocese of Detroit, and was editor for most of the apologetics tracts published by the St. Paul Street Evangelization apostolate. Dave\u2019s apologetics and writing apostolate was the subject of a feature article in the May 2002 issue of \"Envoy Magazine.\" He served as the staff moderator at the Internet discussion forum for The Coming Home Network, from 2007-2010. Dave has been interviewed on many nationally syndicated Catholic radio shows, including \"Catholic Answers Live\" (twice), \"Faith and Family Live\" (Steve Wood), \"Kresta in the Afternoon,\" \"Son Rise Morning Show,\" \"Catholic Connection\" (Teresa Tomeo), and \"The Catholics Next Door.\" His large and popular website, \"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism,\" was online from March 1997 to March 2007, and received the 1998 Catholic Website of the Year award from \"Envoy Magazine.\" His blog of the same name (now transferred to Patheos), begun in February 2004, contains more than 1,500 papers, at least 500 debates or dialogues, and over 50 distinct \"index\" web pages. Unsolicited correspondence has indicated many hundreds of conversions (or returns) to the Catholic faith as a result, by God's grace, of these writings. Dave's conversion story was published in the bestselling book \"Surprised by Truth\" (edited by Patrick Madrid; San Diego: Basilica Press, 1994). Sophia Institute Press has published six of his books: \"A Biblical Defense of Catholicism\" (Foreword by Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J., 1996 \/ 2003), \"The Catholic Verses\" (2004), \"The One-Minute Apologist\" (2007), \"Bible Proofs for Catholic Truths\" (2009), \"The Quotable Newman\" (editor: 2012), and \"Proving the Catholic Faith is Biblical\" (2015). He is co-author (with Dr. Paul Thigpen) of the inserts for \"The New Catholic Answer Bible\" (Our Sunday Visitor: 2005), and editor for \"The Wisdom of Mr. Chesterton: The Very Best Quotes, Quips, and Cracks from the Pen of G. K. Chesterton\" (Saint Benedict Press \/ TAN Books: 2009). \"100 Biblical Arguments Against Sola Scriptura\" was published by Catholic Answers in May 2012. His \"Quotable Wesley\" compilation was published by (Protestant \/ Wesleyan publisher) Beacon Hill Press in April 2014. Several of his 49 books are bestsellers in their field. Dave maintains a popular personal Facebook page, a Facebook author page, and has a Twitter account as well. He offers almost all of his books in e-book form on his own Biblical Catholicism site (http:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/), at a permanent deep discount: only $2.99 for ePub, mobi, and AZW, and $1.99 for PDF. His writing has been enthusiastically endorsed or recommended by many leading Catholic apologists, authors, and priests, including Dr. Scott Hahn, Fr. Peter M. J. Stravinskas, Marcus Grodi, Patrick Madrid, Steve Ray, Tim Staples, Devin Rose, Mike Aquilina, Al Kresta, Karl Keating, Fr. Dwight Longenecker, Brandon Vogt, Marcellino D'Ambrosio, and Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave has been happily married to his wife Judy since October 1984. They have three sons and a daughter, and reside in southeast Michigan (metro Detroit).","url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/author\/davearmstrong"}]}},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/4808","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/2331"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=4808"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/4808\/revisions"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/4810"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=4808"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=4808"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=4808"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}
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