{"id":48364,"date":"2020-05-28T11:34:54","date_gmt":"2020-05-28T15:34:54","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/admin.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/?p=48364"},"modified":"2020-05-28T11:34:54","modified_gmt":"2020-05-28T15:34:54","slug":"dialogue-on-whether-jesus-kinfolk-were-unbelievers","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2020\/05\/dialogue-on-whether-jesus-kinfolk-were-unbelievers.html","title":{"rendered":"Dialogue on Whether Jesus’ Kinfolk Were “Unbelievers”"},"content":{"rendered":"\n<\/head>

Vs. Dr. Lydia McGrew<\/strong><\/p>\n

\"\"<\/p>\n

Dr. Lydia McGrew<\/a> is a delightful and friendly dialogue opponent, and an Anglican biblical and literary scholar<\/a>, and author<\/a>. She showed up when I tagged her in my Facebook cross-posting<\/a> of my blog paper,\u00a0Jesus\u2019 \u201cBrothers\u201d Were \u201cUnbelievers\u201d? (vs. Jason Engwer)<\/a>. Her words will be in blue<\/span>.<\/p>\n

***<\/p>\n

Hi Lydia,<\/p>\n

Jason\u2019s reasoning was drawn from one of your books. And I\u2019d love to discuss Mary more with you, should you agree to that. We had one good, juicy debate<\/a> (where the Triablogue<\/em> folks said you kicked my butt). LOL<\/p>\n

Not sure why there would be a problem with Jesus\u2019 kinsmen previously disbelieving on him and then changing their minds. It\u2019s not like there is a Catholic doctrine of the immaculate conception of St. James, the kinsman of Jesus! Plenty of saints are converts.<\/span><\/p>\n

I noted that in the paper:<\/p>\n

But I grant that it\u2019s certainly possible that some of Jesus\u2019 relatives \u2014 thinking with the carnal mind that virtually everyone possessed before Pentecost \u2014 may have vastly misunderstood Him. If so, nothing in\u00a0that contradicts what Catholics believe. We need only look at Peter (rather remarkably) rebuking Jesus, to see that. We also know from Jesus that the prophet is without honor in his home town. So such a thing is not out of the question or utterly ruled out. But I have provided some arguments showing that it is not necessarily the case, from the text.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

So I made an exegetical \/ reasoned case that they were not \u201cunbelievers\u201d: or if they were, were hardly distinguishable from the disciples.<\/p>\n

And I argued that Jason provided no indisputable evidence whatsoever that Mary had less faith than even pre-Pentecost Peter, or had a \u201cwavering\u201d faith.<\/p>\n

Well, leaving Mary aside\u2013why would you care about if his brothers vastly misunderstood them? I mean, why not just take the statements in John more at face value concerning the brothers\/kinsmen?<\/span><\/p>\n

I note as well: The fact that Jesus commits Mary to the\u00a0Beloved Disciple is some evidence that his brothers\/kinsmen were<\/em>\u00a0unbelievers in a stronger sense at this time. If they had been \u201cindistinguishable from disciples\u201d she would have just had them for company and care, even in the painful time between the crucifixion and resurrection.<\/span><\/p>\n

I don\u2019t \u201ccare\u201d one way or the other. I have no stake in this (apart from Mary, which is dogma). No biggie. I simply gave my opinion on the interpretation of the texts in question. Mark 3:21 is a virtual mistranslation in many versions. RSV\u00a0reads:<\/p>\n

And when his family heard it, they went out to seize him, for people<\/em><\/strong> were saying, \u201cHe is beside himself.\u201d<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

Many versions have \u201cthey\u201d instead of \u201cpeople\u201d (likely a direct rendering of the original Greek) which is then thought to be referring to the family members<\/em>. I thought so myself before I discovered this today. So that is an instance where the text works against<\/em> the family itself disbelieving, and is one reason why I hold my opinion.<\/p>\n

I think John 7:5 is the best argument for Jason\u2019s view, and said so in my paper. But I think it could be limited in application, as I argued (following both Protestant and Catholic commentators). So I hold that view tentatively, but the arguments against Mary were simply non-starters, in my opinion. I know: I \u201chave\u201d to say that, right?: being Catholic. But I truly think there is nothing there, and to believe that Mary had a strong, unwavering faith in Jesus is by no means confined to the Catholic outlook<\/em> anyway. I certainly would have argued for that when I was an evangelical Protestant.<\/p>\n

Her being committed to John is thought by Catholics to reinforce the notion that she had no other sons; else she would be committed to one of them, by Jewish custom. The \u201cbrothers\u201d weren\u2019t that bad. After all, it says \u201chis brothers\u201d (RSV) were in the upper room, devoted to prayer (Acts 1:13-14), which implies to me that they were likely there on the Day of Pentecost as well. So they wound up being the first Christians after the disciples to be indwelt by the Holy Spirit.\u00a0Not bad for Jason\u2019s (and your) \u201cunbelievers\u201d huh?\u00a0:-)<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Well, obviously I\u2019m not saying they were unbelievers then<\/em>. In fact, the idea is that James in particular (and presumably the others) converted as a result of the resurrection. St. Paul expressly mentions Jesus\u2019 appearance to James, which actually is explanatory\u2013that is, it explains James\u2019s changing from the attitude in John 7 to being a pillar of the early church in the book of Acts.<\/span><\/p>\n

*<\/p>\n

Well, then again they would be little different from the disciples<\/em> (which is one of my arguments: why single them out<\/em> as \u201cunbelievers\u201d when they were like even those closest to Jesus?).<\/p>\n

The disciples didn\u2019t believe Mary Magdalene\u2019s report\u00a0of the risen Jesus (Lk 24:10-11), thinking it was an \u201cidle tale\u201d: which shows that they still didn\u2019t have a clue about Jesus having told them many times that He would rise again after three days. The women (bless their hearts) did far better than the dopey, slow men.<\/p>\n

Like atheists and Doubting Thomas, apparently they required ironclad proof: Jesus right in front of their eyes before they would believe: just as Jesus chided the Jews for demanding signs all the time.<\/p>\n

This is my point: why go after the poor \u201cbrothers\u201d because they weren\u2019t sure Jesus was Messiah and God incarnate? Everyone was in the same boat, except for (seemingly) fleeting moments in Peter and a few others.<\/p>\n

Mary, on the other hand, knew Who Jesus was from the time on the Annunciation. And there is no biblical indication that I can see, that she ever ceased<\/em> knowing that or \u201cwavered.\u201d<\/p>\n

I think it\u2019s the undue bias of Protestant \u201canti-Marianism\u201d which is usually simply an overreaction against Catholic Marian piety and dogma. You guys only have the Bible as an infallible authority, so if a thing ain\u2019t there, it ain\u2019t<\/em>, and that\u2019s all there is to it!<\/p>\n

Well, no. The disciples followed him. They were confused and stupid and didn\u2019t always understand. But he had chosen them, they gave up all and followed him. It looks like prior to his resurrection his brothers didn\u2019t take any such positive attitude toward him.<\/span><\/p>\n

That\u2019s true, and a good point, but it\u2019s the difference between discipleship and nominalism, as opposed to belief and non-belief.<\/p>\n

Mary was close to Jesus all along, as far as we can tell (there\u2019s not a lot about it in Scripture, but I would expect\u00a0that, because it is Christocentric). She was present at His first miracle, obviously at His birth, at the cross, in the upper room at Pentecost. She\u2019s celebrated and venerated as the Woman of Revelation 12. Yet all that doesn\u2019t stop Jason from attacking her faith as inadequate and less than Peter\u2019s faith: the guy who \u201crebuked\u201d Jesus (having been led by Satan in that instance) and denied Him three times (also Satan-inspired, no doubt).<\/p>\n

That\u2019s why I think he is operating in mere Protestant bias. The biblical texts do not<\/em> support his contention. With the \u201cbrothers\u201d, maybe: I grant that (though I\u2019m inclined to disagree). But not Mary.<\/p>\n

I\u2019ve always said that Mary\u2019s going along with the others when they went to \u201cstage an intervention\u201d with Jesus need not at all reflect her agreeing with that evaluation. After all from even a Protestant perspective she had seen an angel and knew that she had conceived while a virgin. So it seems really implausible that she would have thought he was crazy. I don\u2019t hold the Catholic view, and I\u2019m not saying that she had everything figured out. I suppose it\u2019s possible that she thought he had gotten off-track. But it seems more likely to me that she went along because it was family drama and she was hoping to provide a moderating influence. It wasn\u2019t like she wasn\u2019t<\/em>\u00a0going to be present at such a scene.<\/span><\/p>\n

***<\/p>\n

See also my friend Paul Hoffer\u2019s insightful comment on this debate<\/a>, posted on my Facebook page.<\/p>\n

***<\/p>\n

Photo credit:<\/strong>\u00a0The Wedding at Cana<\/i>, by Daniel Sarrabat (1666-1748)<\/span> [public domain \/ Wikimedia Commons<\/a>]<\/p>\n

***<\/p>\n<\/body><\/html>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

Vs. Dr. Lydia McGrew Dr. Lydia McGrew is a delightful and friendly dialogue opponent, and an Anglican biblical and literary scholar, and author. She showed up when I tagged her in my Facebook cross-posting of my blog paper,\u00a0Jesus\u2019 \u201cBrothers\u201d Were \u201cUnbelievers\u201d? (vs. Jason Engwer). Her words will be in blue. *** Hi Lydia, Jason\u2019s reasoning […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2331,"featured_media":48365,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[45,172],"tags":[11162,11156,11165,11153,11173,11177,11171,11174,11168,11159],"class_list":["post-48364","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-blessed-virgin-mary","category-trinitarianism-christology","tag-adelphe","tag-brothers-of-jesus","tag-family-of-jesus","tag-jesus-brethren","tag-jesus-brothers","tag-jesus-kinfolk","tag-kinsmen-of-jesus","tag-lydia-mcgrew","tag-relatives-of-jesus","tag-siblings-of-jesus"],"yoast_head":"\nDialogue on Whether Jesus' Kinfolk Were "Unbelievers" Dialogue on Whether Jesus' Kinfolk Were "Unbelievers"<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"Vs. 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Dr. Lydia McGrew Dr. Lydia McGrew is a delightful and friendly dialogue opponent, and an Anglican biblical and literary scholar, and author. 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Formerly a campus missionary, as a Protestant, Dave was received into the Catholic Church in February 1991, by the late, well-known catechist and theologian, Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave\u2019s articles have appeared in many influential Catholic periodicals, including \\\"This Rock\\\" (now called \\\"Catholic Answers Magazine\\\"), \\\"Envoy Magazine\\\" (Patrick Madrid), \\\"The Catholic Answer,\\\" \\\"The Coming Home Journal,\\\" \\\"Gilbert Magazine\\\" (American Chesterton Society), and \\\"The Latin Mass.\\\" He also writes a featured column for every issue of \\\"The Michigan Catholic\\\": published by the archdiocese of Detroit, and was editor for most of the apologetics tracts published by the St. Paul Street Evangelization apostolate. Dave\u2019s apologetics and writing apostolate was the subject of a feature article in the May 2002 issue of \\\"Envoy Magazine.\\\" He served as the staff moderator at the Internet discussion forum for The Coming Home Network, from 2007-2010. Dave has been interviewed on many nationally syndicated Catholic radio shows, including \\\"Catholic Answers Live\\\" (twice), \\\"Faith and Family Live\\\" (Steve Wood), \\\"Kresta in the Afternoon,\\\" \\\"Son Rise Morning Show,\\\" \\\"Catholic Connection\\\" (Teresa Tomeo), and \\\"The Catholics Next Door.\\\" His large and popular website, \\\"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism,\\\" was online from March 1997 to March 2007, and received the 1998 Catholic Website of the Year award from \\\"Envoy Magazine.\\\" His blog of the same name (now transferred to Patheos), begun in February 2004, contains more than 1,500 papers, at least 500 debates or dialogues, and over 50 distinct \\\"index\\\" web pages. Unsolicited correspondence has indicated many hundreds of conversions (or returns) to the Catholic faith as a result, by God's grace, of these writings. Dave's conversion story was published in the bestselling book \\\"Surprised by Truth\\\" (edited by Patrick Madrid; San Diego: Basilica Press, 1994). Sophia Institute Press has published six of his books: \\\"A Biblical Defense of Catholicism\\\" (Foreword by Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J., 1996 \/ 2003), \\\"The Catholic Verses\\\" (2004), \\\"The One-Minute Apologist\\\" (2007), \\\"Bible Proofs for Catholic Truths\\\" (2009), \\\"The Quotable Newman\\\" (editor: 2012), and \\\"Proving the Catholic Faith is Biblical\\\" (2015). He is co-author (with Dr. Paul Thigpen) of the inserts for \\\"The New Catholic Answer Bible\\\" (Our Sunday Visitor: 2005), and editor for \\\"The Wisdom of Mr. Chesterton: The Very Best Quotes, Quips, and Cracks from the Pen of G. K. Chesterton\\\" (Saint Benedict Press \/ TAN Books: 2009). \\\"100 Biblical Arguments Against Sola Scriptura\\\" was published by Catholic Answers in May 2012. His \\\"Quotable Wesley\\\" compilation was published by (Protestant \/ Wesleyan publisher) Beacon Hill Press in April 2014. Several of his 49 books are bestsellers in their field. Dave maintains a popular personal Facebook page, a Facebook author page, and has a Twitter account as well. He offers almost all of his books in e-book form on his own Biblical Catholicism site (http:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/), at a permanent deep discount: only $2.99 for ePub, mobi, and AZW, and $1.99 for PDF. His writing has been enthusiastically endorsed or recommended by many leading Catholic apologists, authors, and priests, including Dr. Scott Hahn, Fr. Peter M. J. Stravinskas, Marcus Grodi, Patrick Madrid, Steve Ray, Tim Staples, Devin Rose, Mike Aquilina, Al Kresta, Karl Keating, Fr. Dwight Longenecker, Brandon Vogt, Marcellino D'Ambrosio, and Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave has been happily married to his wife Judy since October 1984. They have three sons and a daughter, and reside in southeast Michigan (metro Detroit).\",\"sameAs\":[\"https:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/\",\"https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/dave.armstrong.798\",\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/@LuxVeritatisApologetics\"],\"url\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/author\/davearmstrong\"}]}<\/script>\n<!-- \/ Yoast SEO plugin. -->","yoast_head_json":{"title":"Dialogue on Whether Jesus' Kinfolk Were \"Unbelievers\" Dialogue on Whether Jesus' Kinfolk Were \"Unbelievers\"","description":"Vs. Dr. Lydia McGrew Dr. Lydia McGrew is a delightful and friendly dialogue opponent, and an Anglican biblical and literary scholar, and author. 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Formerly a campus missionary, as a Protestant, Dave was received into the Catholic Church in February 1991, by the late, well-known catechist and theologian, Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave\u2019s articles have appeared in many influential Catholic periodicals, including \"This Rock\" (now called \"Catholic Answers Magazine\"), \"Envoy Magazine\" (Patrick Madrid), \"The Catholic Answer,\" \"The Coming Home Journal,\" \"Gilbert Magazine\" (American Chesterton Society), and \"The Latin Mass.\" He also writes a featured column for every issue of \"The Michigan Catholic\": published by the archdiocese of Detroit, and was editor for most of the apologetics tracts published by the St. Paul Street Evangelization apostolate. Dave\u2019s apologetics and writing apostolate was the subject of a feature article in the May 2002 issue of \"Envoy Magazine.\" He served as the staff moderator at the Internet discussion forum for The Coming Home Network, from 2007-2010. Dave has been interviewed on many nationally syndicated Catholic radio shows, including \"Catholic Answers Live\" (twice), \"Faith and Family Live\" (Steve Wood), \"Kresta in the Afternoon,\" \"Son Rise Morning Show,\" \"Catholic Connection\" (Teresa Tomeo), and \"The Catholics Next Door.\" His large and popular website, \"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism,\" was online from March 1997 to March 2007, and received the 1998 Catholic Website of the Year award from \"Envoy Magazine.\" His blog of the same name (now transferred to Patheos), begun in February 2004, contains more than 1,500 papers, at least 500 debates or dialogues, and over 50 distinct \"index\" web pages. Unsolicited correspondence has indicated many hundreds of conversions (or returns) to the Catholic faith as a result, by God's grace, of these writings. Dave's conversion story was published in the bestselling book \"Surprised by Truth\" (edited by Patrick Madrid; San Diego: Basilica Press, 1994). Sophia Institute Press has published six of his books: \"A Biblical Defense of Catholicism\" (Foreword by Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J., 1996 \/ 2003), \"The Catholic Verses\" (2004), \"The One-Minute Apologist\" (2007), \"Bible Proofs for Catholic Truths\" (2009), \"The Quotable Newman\" (editor: 2012), and \"Proving the Catholic Faith is Biblical\" (2015). He is co-author (with Dr. Paul Thigpen) of the inserts for \"The New Catholic Answer Bible\" (Our Sunday Visitor: 2005), and editor for \"The Wisdom of Mr. Chesterton: The Very Best Quotes, Quips, and Cracks from the Pen of G. K. Chesterton\" (Saint Benedict Press \/ TAN Books: 2009). \"100 Biblical Arguments Against Sola Scriptura\" was published by Catholic Answers in May 2012. His \"Quotable Wesley\" compilation was published by (Protestant \/ Wesleyan publisher) Beacon Hill Press in April 2014. Several of his 49 books are bestsellers in their field. Dave maintains a popular personal Facebook page, a Facebook author page, and has a Twitter account as well. He offers almost all of his books in e-book form on his own Biblical Catholicism site (http:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/), at a permanent deep discount: only $2.99 for ePub, mobi, and AZW, and $1.99 for PDF. His writing has been enthusiastically endorsed or recommended by many leading Catholic apologists, authors, and priests, including Dr. Scott Hahn, Fr. Peter M. J. Stravinskas, Marcus Grodi, Patrick Madrid, Steve Ray, Tim Staples, Devin Rose, Mike Aquilina, Al Kresta, Karl Keating, Fr. Dwight Longenecker, Brandon Vogt, Marcellino D'Ambrosio, and Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave has been happily married to his wife Judy since October 1984. They have three sons and a daughter, and reside in southeast Michigan (metro Detroit).","sameAs":["https:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/","https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/dave.armstrong.798","https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/@LuxVeritatisApologetics"],"url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/author\/davearmstrong"}]}},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/48364","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/2331"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=48364"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/48364\/revisions"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/48365"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=48364"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=48364"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=48364"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}