{"id":50865,"date":"2020-08-30T14:48:04","date_gmt":"2020-08-30T18:48:04","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/?p=50865"},"modified":"2020-08-30T14:49:48","modified_gmt":"2020-08-30T18:49:48","slug":"seidensticker-folly-46-ridiculous-5-minute-exchange","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2020\/08\/seidensticker-folly-46-ridiculous-5-minute-exchange.html","title":{"rendered":"Seidensticker Folly #46: Ridiculous 5-Minute Exchange"},"content":{"rendered":"\n<\/head>

Atheist Neil Carter Promptly Banned Me During the Discussion on His Blog<\/strong><\/p>\n

\"\"<\/p>\n

Atheist and anti-theist\u00a0Bob Seidensticker<\/a>,\u00a0who was\u00a0\u201craised Presbyterian\u201d<\/a>,\u00a0runs the influential\u00a0Cross Examined<\/em><\/a>\u00a0blog. He asked me there,\u00a0on 8-11-18<\/a>:\u00a0\u201cI\u2019ve got 1000+ posts here attacking your worldview. You just going to let that stand? Or could you present a helpful new perspective that I\u2019ve ignored on one or two of those posts?\u201d<\/span>\u00a0He also made a general statement\u00a0on 6-22-17<\/a>:\u00a0\u201cChristians\u2019 arguments are easy to refute . . . I\u2019ve heard the good stuff, and it\u2019s not very good.\u201d\u00a0<\/span>He added\u00a0in the combox<\/a>:\u00a0\u201cIf I\u2019ve misunderstood the Christian position or Christian arguments, point that out. Show me where I\u2019ve mischaracterized them.\u201d\u00a0<\/span>Such confusion would indeed be\u00a0predictable<\/em>, seeing that Bob himself admitted\u00a0(2-13-16<\/a>):\u00a0\u201cMy study of the Bible has been haphazard, and I jump around based on whatever I\u2019m researching at the moment.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

Bob (for the record) virtually\u00a0begged<\/em>\u00a0and\u00a0pleaded<\/em>\u00a0with me to dialogue with him in May 2018, via email. But by\u00a010-3-18<\/a>,\u00a0following\u00a0massive, childish name-calling attacks<\/a>\u00a0against me,\u00a0 encouraged by Bob on his blog (just prior to his\u00a0banning<\/em>\u00a0me from it), his opinion was as follows:\u00a0\u201cDave Armstrong . . . made it clear that a thoughtful intellectual conversation wasn\u2019t his goal. . . . [I] have no interest in what he\u2019s writing about.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

And on 10-25-18, utterly oblivious to the ludicrous irony of\u00a0his<\/em>\u00a0making the statement, Bob\u00a0wrote in a combox<\/a>\u00a0on his blog:\u00a0\u201cSomeone who\u2019s not a little bit driven to investigate cognitive dissonance will just stay a Christian, fat \u2018n sassy and ignorant.\u201d\u00a0<\/span>Again,\u00a0Bob mocks some Christian in his combox on\u00a010-27-18<\/a>:\u00a0\u201cYou can\u2019t explain it to us, you can\u2019t defend it, you can\u2019t even defend it to yourself. Defend your position or shut up about it. It\u2019s clear you have nothing.\u201d<\/span>\u00a0And again\u00a0on the same day<\/a>:\u00a0\u201cIf you can\u2019t answer the question, man up and say so.\u201d<\/span>\u00a0And on\u00a010-26-18<\/a>:\u00a0\u201cyou refuse to defend it, after being asked over and over again.\u201d<\/span>\u00a0And\u00a0again<\/a>:\u00a0\u201cYou\u2019re<\/i>\u00a0the one playing games, equivocating, and being unable to answer the challenges.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

Bob\u2019s cowardly hypocrisy knows no bounds. Again,\u00a0on 6-30-19<\/a>, he was chiding someone for something very much like he himself:\u00a0\u201cSpoken like a true weasel trying to run away from a previous argument. You know, you could just say, \u2018Let me retract my previous statement of X\u2019 or something like that.\u201d<\/span>\u00a0Yeah,\u00a0Bob<\/em>\u00a0could!\u00a0\u00a0He still hasn\u2019t yet uttered one peep in reply<\/a>\u00a0to \u2014 now \u2014 45 of my critiques of his atrocious reasoning.<\/p>\n

Bible-Basher Bob\u2019s words will be in\u00a0blue<\/span>.\u00a0To find these posts, follow this link:\u00a0\u201cSeidensticker Folly #\u201d<\/a> or see all of them linked under his own section on my Atheism page<\/a>.<\/p>\n

*****<\/p>\n

It\u2019s been a couple years, I think. I was commenting underneath<\/a> an article by atheist Neil Carter, entitled, \u201cWh<\/span>at Atheists Wish Christians Knew About Them\u201d\u00a0[link<\/a>]\u00a0Bob\u2019s words will be in blue<\/span>.<\/span><\/p>\n

*****<\/p>\n

I thank you for writing this and will share it on my Catholic Facebook page [which I did<\/a>] because I think it is important that human beings understand those who are different from them. <\/span><\/p>\n

I can\u2019t help but notice the irony, however, that even when the writer of such an article is not an anti-theist, as you say about yourself, the combox below the article is (inevitably?) full of anti-theists and the usual echo chamber-type yucking it up and mockery of Christians and Christianity. I\u2019ve never seen an atheist combox that wasn\u2019t like that. Does one exist anywhere? <\/span><\/p>\n

And you say this because of the contrast between atheist blogs and Christian blogs? You\u2019re saying this because the atheist blogs are echo chambers while the Christian blogs are open and friendly discussions of a wide variety of topics with nothing off limits? You need to show me where you hang out, because I haven\u2019t seen such Christian blogs. <\/span><\/p>\n

I wasn\u2019t discussing Christian blogs, but since you brought it up (and since I\u2019m banned on yours), <\/span><\/p>\n

You say that as if I haven\u2019t been banned on yours. Twice. <\/span><\/p>\n

I heartily agree that almost all Christian blogs have worthless comboxes as well (inter-Christian squabbles are as boorish and tedious as atheist-Christian ones: believe me!). <\/span><\/p>\n

For those sites (STR, Cold Case Christianity<\/em>, and many others) without commenting features, I think I can see their reasoning. They want a monologue rather than a dialogue. Of course, the rules are theirs to set, and I\u2019m free to go elsewhere, so I can\u2019t complain. Still, I do sense that part of that motivation is the realization that they couldn\u2019t win a fair fight and must rig the game. <\/span><\/p>\n

My own is welcoming of those of all beliefs under the sun, as long as they behave in a civil fashion. <\/span><\/p>\n

That\u2019s why I\u2019m banned? Oh, OK. <\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Hence, recently, I\u2019ve been in discussion with two atheists: \u201cgusbovona\u201d (also active on your blog), who enjoyed the discussion (said so), as did I. I just put up our exchange<\/a> two days ago.\u00a0<\/span>We were discussing my response to one of your arguments (since you have refused to reply to now 44 of my critiques<\/a> of your stuff, after directly challenging me to critique it). <\/span><\/p>\n

Ironic, isn\u2019t it? I respond to what seems like countless Christian articles, and I rarely get a Christian responding to my stuff. I live for debate. And I finally find someone who has written, apparently, 44 replies, but I have zero interest in engaging. Ain\u2019t life crazy? <\/span><\/p>\n

The other one goes by \u201cabb3w\u201d. <\/span><\/p>\n

Yes, those are thoughtful commenters. <\/span><\/p>\n

Perfectly amiable, non-insulting discussion. It\u2019s a joy to me when this happens. Therefore, I hang out on my blog, where such discussion actually exists. Granted, it\u2019s relatively rare (because few atheists want to actually talk to and dialogue with us Christians), but the possibility is always there, if any atheist wants to come and discuss things. As long as they don\u2019t start insulting and mocking, they are always welcome (serious, constructive, inquiring, person-to-person dialogue). But if they do act up, I will ban (just as you do yourself). <\/span><\/p>\n

Let\u2019s not imagine a perfect symmetry here. I\u2019m very slow to ban. Perhaps you\u2019ve seen commenters complain about that (and they are likely correct). Before I do ban, I almost always coach the offender with the good behavior I\u2019m looking for. Unfortunately, they have never reformed. <\/span><\/p>\n

I\u2019ve banned many more Christians than atheists. When you banned me from your site, I was in a serious, amiable discussion with someone else there. But you didn\u2019t want that to take place, I guess, so you hit the eject button. <\/span><\/p>\n

Yeah, seeing you have a fruitful conversation must\u2019ve been too much for my stony heart. I confess that I don\u2019t remember the details of either banning. I think an objective observer would see the unfairness differently than you do. <\/span><\/p>\n

*** <\/span><\/p>\n

When I banned you from my site, it was because you violated my ethical guidelines, as I explained at length<\/a> at the time.<\/span>\u00a0I\u2019ve also written several articles of a conciliatory nature, regarding atheists: <\/span><\/p>\n

Secular Humanism & Christianity: Seeking Common Ground (with Sue Strandberg)<\/a> [5-25-01] <\/span><\/p>\n

Are Atheists \u201cEvil\u201d? Multiple Causes of Atheist Disbelief and the Possibility of Salvation<\/a> [2-17-03] <\/span><\/p>\n

16 Atheists \/ Agnostics & Me (At a Meeting)<\/a> [11-24-10] <\/span><\/p>\n

Should We Ignore Atheists or Charitably Dialogue?<\/a> [7-21-10 and 1-7-11] <\/span><\/p>\n

My Enjoyable Dinner with Six Atheist Friends<\/a> [6-9-15] <\/span><\/p>\n

Dialogue: Constructive Atheist-Christian Discussion<\/a> [9-17-15] <\/span><\/p>\n

Legitimate Atheist Anger<\/a> [10-7-15] <\/span><\/p>\n

New Testament on God-Rejecters vs. Open-Minded Agnostics<\/a> [10-9-15] <\/span><\/p>\n

[the above material was all (initially) posted on Neil Carter\u2019s site. When I went to respond to Bob\u2019s second reply, I discovered that Neil had banned me, too, and deleted my comments. Very impressive. But here is the reply I (would have) made, if I was allowed to]: <\/span><\/p>\n

As I have said, I explained why you were banned. You violated my ethical standards for conduct (precisely as you think I did on your blog). It has nothing to do with what you believe, and certainly<\/em><\/strong> not for any imagined prowess in argument that you think you have against Christianity. I have refuted you 44 times now without reply. But I\u2019m scared of you, according to you. <\/span><\/p>\n

That\u2019s certainly an interesting \u201csee no evil \/ hear no evil\u201d spin that the facts massively refute. But carry on. Should you ever decide to engage my critiques and live up to your triumphalistic rhetoric I\u2019d be more than happy to counter-reply. <\/span><\/p>\n

[meanwhile, Bob, thinking I deleted my own comments and not knowing I was banned, posted further]: <\/span><\/p>\n

(Dave deleted his comment above.) It is odd how memories differ. In Dave\u2019s mind, he has a well-publicized and quite reasonable list of rules that any civil person would want to follow, but I just couldn\u2019t be bothered. And he was a gentleman on my site, but I just couldn\u2019t tolerate him making so much gosh-darned sense. My memories are rather different.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

***<\/p>\n

I\u2019ll let you, dear reader, detect and enjoy the numerous delicious ironies and ludicrous hypocrisies in this incident with regard to both Bible-Basher Bob and Hair-Trigger Neil Carter. These are the folks who are supposedly so<\/em><\/strong> vastly intellectually superior to us poor, lowly Christians? This<\/strong><\/em> is how they act? I had critiqued Neil as part of my previous critique of bob, on the issue of the \u201czombies\u201d who rose from the dead: described in Matthew 27:51-53. Apparently, that critique was too much for him to take, and so he decided to ban me and try to forget that it ever happened.<\/span><\/p>\n

Not<\/strong><\/em> impressive . . . If one has a case, then they defend their arguments in the face of criticism, rather than ban and flee for the hills and hope\u00a0 their readers never saw their arguments being roundly refuted.<\/p>\n

***<\/p>\n

Photo credit:<\/strong> [public domain \/ Piqsels<\/a>]<\/p>\n

***<\/p>\n<\/body><\/html>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

Atheist Neil Carter Promptly Banned Me During the Discussion on His Blog Atheist and anti-theist\u00a0Bob Seidensticker,\u00a0who was\u00a0\u201craised Presbyterian\u201d,\u00a0runs the influential\u00a0Cross Examined\u00a0blog. He asked me there,\u00a0on 8-11-18:\u00a0\u201cI\u2019ve got 1000+ posts here attacking your worldview. You just going to let that stand? Or could you present a helpful new perspective that I\u2019ve ignored on one or two […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2331,"featured_media":50874,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[124],"tags":[4129,3804,1043,258,212,4126,5552],"class_list":["post-50865","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-atheism-agnosticism","tag-alleged-bible-contradictions","tag-angry-atheist","tag-anti-theism","tag-atheism","tag-atheist-christian-discussion","tag-bob-seidensticker","tag-cross-examined"],"yoast_head":"\nSeidensticker Folly #46: Ridiculous 5-Minute Exchange Seidensticker Folly #46: Ridiculous 5-Minute Exchange<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"Atheist Neil Carter Promptly Banned Me During the Discussion on His Blog Atheist and anti-theist\u00a0Bob Seidensticker,\u00a0who was\u00a0\u201craised Presbyterian\u201d,\u00a0runs 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Dave\u2019s apologetics and writing apostolate was the subject of a feature article in the May 2002 issue of \\\"Envoy Magazine.\\\" He served as the staff moderator at the Internet discussion forum for The Coming Home Network, from 2007-2010. Dave has been interviewed on many nationally syndicated Catholic radio shows, including \\\"Catholic Answers Live\\\" (twice), \\\"Faith and Family Live\\\" (Steve Wood), \\\"Kresta in the Afternoon,\\\" \\\"Son Rise Morning Show,\\\" \\\"Catholic Connection\\\" (Teresa Tomeo), and \\\"The Catholics Next Door.\\\" His large and popular website, \\\"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism,\\\" was online from March 1997 to March 2007, and received the 1998 Catholic Website of the Year award from \\\"Envoy Magazine.\\\" His blog of the same name (now transferred to Patheos), begun in February 2004, contains more than 1,500 papers, at least 500 debates or dialogues, and over 50 distinct \\\"index\\\" web pages. Unsolicited correspondence has indicated many hundreds of conversions (or returns) to the Catholic faith as a result, by God's grace, of these writings. Dave's conversion story was published in the bestselling book \\\"Surprised by Truth\\\" (edited by Patrick Madrid; San Diego: Basilica Press, 1994). Sophia Institute Press has published six of his books: \\\"A Biblical Defense of Catholicism\\\" (Foreword by Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J., 1996 \/ 2003), \\\"The Catholic Verses\\\" (2004), \\\"The One-Minute Apologist\\\" (2007), \\\"Bible Proofs for Catholic Truths\\\" (2009), \\\"The Quotable Newman\\\" (editor: 2012), and \\\"Proving the Catholic Faith is Biblical\\\" (2015). He is co-author (with Dr. Paul Thigpen) of the inserts for \\\"The New Catholic Answer Bible\\\" (Our Sunday Visitor: 2005), and editor for \\\"The Wisdom of Mr. Chesterton: The Very Best Quotes, Quips, and Cracks from the Pen of G. K. Chesterton\\\" (Saint Benedict Press \/ TAN Books: 2009). \\\"100 Biblical Arguments Against Sola Scriptura\\\" was published by Catholic Answers in May 2012. His \\\"Quotable Wesley\\\" compilation was published by (Protestant \/ Wesleyan publisher) Beacon Hill Press in April 2014. Several of his 49 books are bestsellers in their field. Dave maintains a popular personal Facebook page, a Facebook author page, and has a Twitter account as well. He offers almost all of his books in e-book form on his own Biblical Catholicism site (http:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/), at a permanent deep discount: only $2.99 for ePub, mobi, and AZW, and $1.99 for PDF. His writing has been enthusiastically endorsed or recommended by many leading Catholic apologists, authors, and priests, including Dr. Scott Hahn, Fr. Peter M. J. Stravinskas, Marcus Grodi, Patrick Madrid, Steve Ray, Tim Staples, Devin Rose, Mike Aquilina, Al Kresta, Karl Keating, Fr. Dwight Longenecker, Brandon Vogt, Marcellino D'Ambrosio, and Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave has been happily married to his wife Judy since October 1984. 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Formerly a campus missionary, as a Protestant, Dave was received into the Catholic Church in February 1991, by the late, well-known catechist and theologian, Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave\u2019s articles have appeared in many influential Catholic periodicals, including \"This Rock\" (now called \"Catholic Answers Magazine\"), \"Envoy Magazine\" (Patrick Madrid), \"The Catholic Answer,\" \"The Coming Home Journal,\" \"Gilbert Magazine\" (American Chesterton Society), and \"The Latin Mass.\" He also writes a featured column for every issue of \"The Michigan Catholic\": published by the archdiocese of Detroit, and was editor for most of the apologetics tracts published by the St. Paul Street Evangelization apostolate. Dave\u2019s apologetics and writing apostolate was the subject of a feature article in the May 2002 issue of \"Envoy Magazine.\" He served as the staff moderator at the Internet discussion forum for The Coming Home Network, from 2007-2010. Dave has been interviewed on many nationally syndicated Catholic radio shows, including \"Catholic Answers Live\" (twice), \"Faith and Family Live\" (Steve Wood), \"Kresta in the Afternoon,\" \"Son Rise Morning Show,\" \"Catholic Connection\" (Teresa Tomeo), and \"The Catholics Next Door.\" His large and popular website, \"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism,\" was online from March 1997 to March 2007, and received the 1998 Catholic Website of the Year award from \"Envoy Magazine.\" His blog of the same name (now transferred to Patheos), begun in February 2004, contains more than 1,500 papers, at least 500 debates or dialogues, and over 50 distinct \"index\" web pages. Unsolicited correspondence has indicated many hundreds of conversions (or returns) to the Catholic faith as a result, by God's grace, of these writings. Dave's conversion story was published in the bestselling book \"Surprised by Truth\" (edited by Patrick Madrid; San Diego: Basilica Press, 1994). Sophia Institute Press has published six of his books: \"A Biblical Defense of Catholicism\" (Foreword by Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J., 1996 \/ 2003), \"The Catholic Verses\" (2004), \"The One-Minute Apologist\" (2007), \"Bible Proofs for Catholic Truths\" (2009), \"The Quotable Newman\" (editor: 2012), and \"Proving the Catholic Faith is Biblical\" (2015). He is co-author (with Dr. Paul Thigpen) of the inserts for \"The New Catholic Answer Bible\" (Our Sunday Visitor: 2005), and editor for \"The Wisdom of Mr. Chesterton: The Very Best Quotes, Quips, and Cracks from the Pen of G. K. Chesterton\" (Saint Benedict Press \/ TAN Books: 2009). \"100 Biblical Arguments Against Sola Scriptura\" was published by Catholic Answers in May 2012. His \"Quotable Wesley\" compilation was published by (Protestant \/ Wesleyan publisher) Beacon Hill Press in April 2014. Several of his 49 books are bestsellers in their field. Dave maintains a popular personal Facebook page, a Facebook author page, and has a Twitter account as well. He offers almost all of his books in e-book form on his own Biblical Catholicism site (http:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/), at a permanent deep discount: only $2.99 for ePub, mobi, and AZW, and $1.99 for PDF. His writing has been enthusiastically endorsed or recommended by many leading Catholic apologists, authors, and priests, including Dr. Scott Hahn, Fr. Peter M. J. Stravinskas, Marcus Grodi, Patrick Madrid, Steve Ray, Tim Staples, Devin Rose, Mike Aquilina, Al Kresta, Karl Keating, Fr. Dwight Longenecker, Brandon Vogt, Marcellino D'Ambrosio, and Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave has been happily married to his wife Judy since October 1984. They have three sons and a daughter, and reside in southeast Michigan (metro Detroit).","sameAs":["https:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/","https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/dave.armstrong.798","https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/@LuxVeritatisApologetics"],"url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/author\/davearmstrong"}]}},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/50865","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/2331"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=50865"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/50865\/revisions"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/50874"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=50865"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=50865"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=50865"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}