![\"MaryAnnunciation2\"](\"https:\/\/wp-media.patheos.com\/blogs\/sites\/572\/2015\/12\/MaryAnnunciation2.jpg\")
<\/a><\/div>\nThe Annunciation<\/em> (1644), by\u00a0Philippe de Champaigne (1602-1674)<\/span> [public domain \/ Wikimedia Commons<\/a>]<\/p>\n * * *<\/p>\n<\/div>\n (10-8-11)<\/p>\n * * *<\/p>\n<\/div>\n This dialogue occurred at\u00a0Cranach: The Blog of Veith<\/i><\/a>: a Lutheran site, in the combox for the post\u00a0\u201cMariology,\u201d<\/a>\u00a0in comment numbers\u00a021<\/a>,\u00a025<\/a>,\u00a027<\/a>,\u00a0186<\/a>,\u00a0187<\/a>,\u00a0188<\/a>,\u00a0190<\/a>,\u00a0191<\/a>,\u00a0192<\/a>,\u00a0193<\/a>,\u00a0194<\/a>,\u00a0195<\/a>,\u00a0196<\/a>,\u00a0198<\/a>,\u00a0199<\/a>,\u00a0201<\/a>,\u00a0203<\/a>,\u00a0206<\/a>. I have arranged all these comments (no words changed or edited out!) in order to make it a coherent, flowing, back-and-forth dialogue.<\/p>\n * * *<\/p>\n<\/div>\n *<\/p>\n Why should the Apostle Paul be an exemplar: also being chosen by Grace alone as every Christian is? But he urged his followers to imitate him and follow his example (as I documented in\u00a0#180\u00a0<\/a>above). Exactly! Where\u2019s the beef? You actually think that Catholics would\u00a0deny<\/i>\u00a0this?<\/p>\n I don\u2019t know anyone else who has been \u201chailed\u201d by an angel [Lk 1:28]. Do you?<\/p>\n Baptist Greek scholar A. T. Robertson writes about Luke 1:28:<\/p>\n \u201c\u2018Highly favoured\u2019\u201d (kecharitomene<\/i>). Perfect passive participle of\u00a0charitoo<\/i>\u00a0and means endowed with grace (charis<\/i>), enriched with grace as in Ephesians. 1:6, . . . The Vulgate\u00a0gratiae plena<\/i>\u00a0\u2018is right, if it means \u201cfull of grace\u00a0which thou hast received<\/i>\u201c; wrong, if it means \u201cfull of grace\u00a0which thou hast to bestow<\/i>\u201c\u2018 (Plummer).\u201d<\/p>\n (Word Pictures in the New Testament<\/i>, Nashville: Broadman Press, 1930, Vol. II, 13)<\/p><\/blockquote>\n Greek scholar Marvin Vincent noted that even Wycliffe and Tyndale (no enthusiastic supporters of the Catholic Church) both rendered\u00a0kecharitomene<\/i>\u00a0in Luke 1:28 as \u201cfull of grace\u201d and that the literal meaning was \u201cendued with grace\u201d (Word Studies in the New Testament<\/i>, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Eerdmans, 1946, 1887 edition [New York: Charles Scribner\u2019s Sons], Vol. I, 259).<\/p>\n Likewise, well-known Protestant linguist W. E. Vine, defines it as \u201cto endue with Divine favour or grace\u201d (An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words<\/i>, Old Tappan, NJ: Fleming H. Revell Co., four volumes-in-one edition, 1940., Vol. II, 171).<\/p>\n All these men (except Wycliffe, who probably would have been, had he lived in the 16th century or after it) are Protestants, and so cannot be accused of Catholic translation bias. Even a severe critic of Catholicism like James White can\u2019t avoid the fact that\u00a0kecharitomene<\/i>\u00a0(however translated) cannot be divorced from the notion of grace, and stated that the term referred to \u201cdivine favor, that is, God\u2019s grace\u201d (The Roman Catholic Controversy<\/i>, Minneapolis: Bethany House Publishers, 1996, 201).<\/p>\n Of course, Catholics agree that Mary has received grace. This is assumed in the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception: it was a grace from God which could not possibly have had anything to do with Mary\u2019s personal merit, since it was granted by God at the moment of her conception, to preserve her from original sin (as appropriate for the one who would bear God Incarnate in her very body).<\/p>\n Thus, the angel favored Mary because she was full of grace, and being in that state was due to a special act of God. She had the special qualities; they came from God.<\/p>\n Gabriel had to tell Mary, \u201cDo not be afraid.\u201d What sinless person would fear the Lord, much less the Lord\u2019s messenger?\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n Angels were universally feared, because they are extraordinary creatures, and out of the ordinary. I don\u2019t see that Mary\u2019s reaction would be any different from anyone else\u2019s, whether she is sinless or not. One can be sinless, but still if one had no previous encounter with an angel, then they would tremble and fear. That\u2019s not sin. It\u2019s being a human being, responding to the extraordinary.<\/p>\n *<\/p>\n Yes, it is. All grace is amazing, but the grace He gave to the Blessed Virgin Mary is more amazing, arguably, than any other instance, since He made her\u00a0full\u00a0<\/i>of grace. God is so good! Isn\u2019t\u00a0God<\/i>\u00a0amazing, to use a human being in such an incredible way to bring about the incarnation of our savior and redeemer and Lord, Jesus Christ? God didn\u2019t necessarily have to become man or even (theologians and spiritual masters have speculated) choose the cross and all the agony involved in Jesus\u2019 passion.<\/p>\n He could have simply proclaimed that we were all saved, or that those who accepted His free grace were saved. But He didn\u2019t do that. He chose to suffer and die for us, and He chose to use a created human being, Mary, to bear God Himself in her womb and to be the Mother of God. It is sublime beyond all words, how God does things like this. This is why we venerate Mary so highly: because she is a witness to and example of God\u2019s grace and love for His creatures like no other human being.<\/p>\n Many millions of Protestants put out statues of Mary at Christmastime, because they can\u2019t deny that the birth of Jesus was such an incredible event. And every birth I know of entails a mother, who is not exactly an insignificant player . . . We honor every mother of a baby, for all that she has done, and gone through.<\/p>\n Yet when it comes to honoring the mother of Jesus Christ: a created human being who had God Himself in her womb for nine months, and who lived with Jesus for about thirty years before He was known to the world, the Protestant balks, on the ridiculous grounds that this\u00a0must<\/i>\u00a0be idolatry, or, at the very least, that it must somehow\u00a0detract<\/i>\u00a0from our adoration and worship of God. This is an insufficient spirituality and insufficiently\u00a0biblical<\/i>\u00a0as well.<\/p>\n That doesn\u2019t follow, either, since Satan and all the fallen angels were in the presence of God. That didn\u2019t stop\u00a0them<\/i>\u00a0from being disobedient, did it? You underestimate the strength of human (and demonic \/ angelic) free will by quite a wide margin.<\/p>\n The thrust of this seems to be, \u201cbig wow: Mary was obedient. Who [of believers]\u00a0wouldn\u2019t<\/i>\u00a0be after an angelic visit?\u201d But this is wrongheaded. We have free will. It is not a foregone conclusion at all that human beings will be obedient simply because an angel (or God) visits them.<\/p>\n For example, look at Jonah. The Bible says that \u201cthe Word of the Lord came to Jonah\u201d (Jonah 1:1). He disobeyed: \u201cBut Jonah rose to flee to Tarshish from the presence of the Lord\u201d (Jonah 1:3; cf. 1:10). Then when he finally did what God told him to do, he was \u201cdispleased\u201d and \u201cangry\u201d at the good result (Jonah 4:1).<\/p>\n Adam and Eve had direct contact with God in Eden. Nevertheless they rebelled. So being with God (more more fabulous and wondrous than being with an angel) didn\u2019t preclude the negative result and the rebellion. The first Eve said no to God; the second Eve said yes. What the Church fathers\u00a0en masse<\/i>\u00a0marveled at and rejoiced over, you (and indeed many Protestants, for inexplicable reasons) regard as a ho-hum.<\/p>\n Thus, Mary is to be given credit for saying \u201cyes\u201d to God. That is the credit that can go to her, just as we are credited with all good and righteous acts, even though they are all ultimately due to God and His grace. As St. Augustine said (paraphrase), \u201cmerit is God rewarding His own gifts.\u201d<\/p>\n I mentioned Satan\u2019s rebellion, even though he had been in God\u2019s presence. Satan was a \u201cbeliever\u201d at one point. How could he not be? He was with God, as His greatest angel! He was in a state even higher than we will be if we get to heaven. But he decided to rebel. How can someone rebel if they haven\u2019t\u00a0been\u00a0<\/i>in the camp from which they are rebelling? Therefore, your reiteration of your talking about a \u201cbeliever\u201d is irrelevant, since Satan\u00a0was<\/i>\u00a0(just as Judas was). He used to be like the good angels now are.<\/p>\n \u201cBig wow\u201d? No, I consider it quite amazing that God puts a new heart into a believer, i.e., one who has received the gift of faith in Christ alone (the Christ that Mary looked forward to). And that this new heart responds spontaneously in humility and obedience. Amazing \u2013 full of grace indeed!<\/p>\n When did Abraham, Joseph, Moses, Joshua, Samuel, David, Solomon, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, or Daniel ever trust in Christ for forgiveness? Were they not \u201cbelievers\u201d?<\/p>\n I did so, and am continuing to do so. My reply in #195 was exactly on-topic; dead on topic. It was a rhetorical question, based on the logical technique of\u00a0reductio ad absurdum<\/i>: not changing the subject at all. You just didn\u2019t grasp the logic of it (and so ignored the burden of answering).<\/p>\n In this case, the logic was that you would be required to deny that Abraham, Joseph, Moses, Joshua, Samuel, David, Solomon, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, and Daniel were believers, by your definition of the term. Since that is patently absurd, and proves too much, your initial premise and definition collapse; hence you declined to answer, having been stewed in your own juice, so to speak, and chose rather to pretend that I was off-topic, rather than that you were off-logic and off-Scripture.<\/p>\n It\u2019s literally a textbook example of illogical and\u00a0non sequitur<\/i>\u00a0thinking: fit for a textbook in logic (I took that course in college).<\/p>\n Show me the Scripture that says she was full of grace\u00a0<\/span>before<\/b>\u00a0the annunciation.<\/span><\/p>\n Luke 1:28. Because she is already in this state (\u201cO favored one\u201d \u2014 RSV), the angel hails her as such.<\/p>\n It follows logically from Luke 1:28 and (especially) from what\u00a0kecharitomene<\/i>\u00a0means. It\u2019s a perfect passive participle, that shows a \u201ccompleted action with permanent result\u201d (Smyth), and denotes continuance of a completed action (H. W. Smyth,\u00a0Greek Grammar<\/i>, Harvard Univ Press, 1968, pp. 108-109, section 1852:b; also Friedrich Blass and Albert DeBrunner,\u00a0Greek Grammar of the New Testament<\/i>, Chicago: Univ. of Chicago Press, 1961, pp. 166, 175).<\/p>\n Just did.<\/p>\n I not only can, but\u00a0did<\/i>. What can\u2019t be shown in Scripture (if you want to play that game) is the foolish notion of\u00a0sola Scriptura<\/i>: that only the Bible is the infallible rule of faith, to the exclusion of an infallible Church.<\/p>\n Asking you to convince me of RC teachings from\u00a0<\/span>Scripture alone<\/b>\u00a0is not a \u201cgame\u201d \u2013 not for a Lutheran. Besides, having looked at your website, and seeing that you present yourself as a\u00a0<\/span>biblical<\/b>\u00a0RC apologist, you should have no problem at all making your arguments from Scripture \u2013 at least primarily. I\u2019m waiting.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n Duly noted. Mary really threatens you, doesn\u2019t she?<\/p>\n Threatened? Not in the least. I am, however, amused by the number of times you\u2019ve claimed or suggested that Lutherans (or Protestants or Evangelicals) are afraid, or weak in faith.<\/span><\/p>\n The humble handmaiden of the Lord . . . We must flee from her in terror, lest our faith in God be imperiled!!! You must have a very weak faith, if you are so scared of losing it merely from venerating God\u2019s greatest created human being, just as Scripture says we should honor the heroes of the faith (Hebrews 11), precisely because they reflect the work and glory of God.<\/p>\n Mary\u2019s humility is exhibited throughout the biblical accounts where she appears. Many Protestants who deny every Catholic and traditional (patristic, apostolic, biblical) doctrine about her wouldn\u2019t dream of denying\u00a0that<\/i>, of all things. But you will have no talk of any extraordinary qualities of Mary! She only bore God in her own womb. Nothing to write home about . . .<\/p>\n I have several arguments from Scripture. It takes faith to believe, like all Christian doctrines. The Christian (and Catholic) faith is not merely philosophy and epistemology, but a religious faith: a spiritual thing. It can\u2019t be\u00a0reduced\u00a0<\/i>to logic (though it is never inconsistent with that). Faith is a supernatural gift granted by God\u2019s grace. God will grant anyone the eyes to see the truths of Mariology, if they are willing to grant them at least as possibilities.<\/p>\n I considered them\u00a0<\/span>more<\/b>\u00a0than possibilities back when I was RC myself. The only thing about Mariology that God opened my eyes to was the absurdity of it.<\/span><\/p>\n I can\u2019t \u201cprove\u201d the Immaculate Conception in some airtight sense, but there are a lot of things that can\u2019t be proven in that sense. I think the Catholic can demonstrate\u00a0enough<\/i>\u00a0to show that the doctrine is\u00a0plausible<\/i>\u00a0and not\u00a0opposed\u00a0<\/i>to Scripture or reason at all.<\/p>\n I have no doubt that Mr. Armstrong believes \u201cCatholics need only to show the harmony of a doctrine with holy Scripture.\u201d But that\u2019s not going to cut it with me \u2013 not from an apostle to the Protestants\u00a0<\/span>who wants me to believe he\u2019s\u00a0<\/span>truly<\/b>\u00a0biblical.\u00a0<\/span>More<\/b>\u00a0biblical than any non-Catholic. I know full well that anything \u2013\u00a0<\/span>anything<\/b>\u00a0\u2013 can be \u201charmonized\u201d with Scripture if you\u2019re clever enough.<\/span><\/p>\n I also had the following brief exchange in the same combox (#10<\/a>,\u00a0#183<\/a>) with a person (\u201cJerry\u201d) of unknown denominational affiliation:<\/p>\n ***<\/p>\n<\/div>\n
\nas she was chosen by grace alone:\u00a0\u201cGreetings, favored one! The Lord is with you \u2026 Do not be afraid, Mary; for you have found favor with God.\u201d<\/i>\u00a0No reason for this is given in the Annunciation, no deserving qualities in Mary are mentioned, just \u201cGod\u2019s favor\u201d \u2013 unmerited grace.<\/span>
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