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[originally posted on 8 May 2002 from public board discussions; Anti-Catholic polemicist Frank Turk\u2019s words will be in\u00a0blue<\/span>; Catechism citations will be in\u00a0green<\/span>]<\/p>\n ***<\/p>\n If you are suggesting that Rome does not provide a semi-pelagian view of grace and the nature of man, you have to rationalize the catechism in paragraphs 1786-1794.<\/span><\/p>\n This is referring to the formation of conscience and cases of ignorance, where a person has never heard the gospel. It has nothing whatever to do with salvation \u2014 not a word of it; therefore it is a non sequitur in this discussion, as Semi-Pelagianism has to do with man taking the first step towards salvation, rather than grace being the initiator (as in both Catholicism and Protestantism).<\/p>\n When the CCC is actually talking about salvation, or conversion (i.e., on-topic), then, of course, we see Grace Alone (over against all forms of Pelagianism):<\/p>\n Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life (cf. Jn 1:12-18, 17:3, Rom 8:14-17, 2 Pet 1:3-4). (#1996)<\/span><\/p>\n I agree it says that \u2014 the problem is that it comes after the CCC has already said man can be prudent enough to do good and be righteous.<\/span><\/p>\n The problem is that you create \u201ccontradictions\u201d when there are none, and mix apples and oranges. I\u2019m not convinced you know the correct definitions of Pelagianism or Semi-Pelagianism. That wouldn\u2019t be the first time, by any means, that a Protestant accused Catholics of holding to Pelagianism: something which they couldn\u2019t even define properly in the first place. But Calvinists routinely falsely accuse not only Catholics, but all Arminians of this error, because, in my opinion, they can\u2019t escape their radically dichotomous thought patterns.<\/p>\n HOGWASH! If it\u2019s your position that these three paragraphs in particular are not about man\u2019s ability to do good,<\/span><\/p>\n Man does retain some ability to do good; just not enough to ever save himself. We deny the Total Depravity that Luther and Calvin dreamt up, in opposition to the Fathers and the Bible. The CCC is saying nothing more here than St. Paul says in Rom 2:12-16. God can be known to some extent by natural, unregenerate man in His creation (Rom 1:18-20). We don\u2019t think He can be totally known (e.g., the Trinity) without revelation and grace. That\u2019s what Thomas Aquinas taught, as I assume you know. And that is our belief.<\/span><\/p>\n If you think that it\u2019s not talking about pelagianism, or taking a semi-pelagian view, I think you\u2019re not really reading what\u2019s there.<\/span><\/p>\n You are reading it in isolation, with tunnel vision and an agenda (trying to prove that we are Pelagians), and not interpreting it within the larger framework of the entire CCC, Trent, Orange, Vatican II, etc. You assume there is a contradiction where there is none.<\/p>\n Yes, this section does not speak directly of soteriology.<\/span><\/p>\n Then why are you applying it to soteriology?<\/p>\n But it speaks of something else: man\u2019s ability to perceive and execute what is \u201cgood\u201d. The\u00a0subtle issue is that if man merely needs to be \u201cprudent\u201d to be and do good \u2014 something Pelagius would absolutely endorse \u2014 then the rest of the theology of grace begins to unravel.<\/span><\/p>\n That\u2019s simply not true. Grace Alone does not require total depravity. Calvinists often regard all Arminian Protestants (which is most of \u2019em, even among evangelicals), as well as Catholics, as Semi-Pelagians. Why and how they can do such a silly thing is due to their espousal of the falsehood that grace alone necessarily requires total depravity and no ability to do any good, whatever; a sin nature of the fallen man, rather than a radically fallen nature which retains some ability to do good, but not enough to save oneself.<\/p>\n I think that, if at its base, the Catholic theology of Grace says, in effect, a man with enough prudence (not faith) can follow his conscience and do the good and shun the evil, the\u00a0subsequent protestations about the grace of God alone are moot.<\/span><\/p>\n Prove, then, that Trent or Vatican II teach Pelagianism. Be my guest. All you can do is pick away at passages in the CCC that are talking about natural law and the nature of man, not about salvation, and then trump up a charge of inconsistency. This is special pleading and \u201cwishful interpretation.\u201d<\/p>\n The Pelagian error is not an abandonment of Grace on the back-side: it is the dissolution of the need for Grace on the front side. If man has a conscience that is the correct guidepost for his behavior (1777), and if he only has to be wise enough to follow it to do good and therefore be\u00a0<\/span>righteous (1780 and 1781), there is no need for Grace. Man just has to wise up.<\/span><\/p>\n That doesn\u2019t follow. It\u2019s a false dichotomy. We believe that man retains a small measure of good, and free will. Even that is dependent on God\u2019s grace. God \u201cwrote it on their hearts\u201d (Rom 2:15). At the same time, we think that no one can attain to salvation without God\u2019s grace. Trent clearly teaches this. Even you didn\u2019t deny that when I cited Trent:\u00a0\u201cI wouldn\u2019t quibble over those portions of Trent. I would ask how one takes those passages and also paragraphs 1786-1794 of the 1994 catechism and says they do not contradict.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n The pelagian and semi-pelagian does not say there is no grace of God: he says that God\u2019s grace is a bonus for those who aren\u2019t prudent enough to follow their own conscience.<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n Well, that is not our view; it is rank heresy, and a denial of original sin. You only think it is the Catholic view, just as you mistakenly thought I was arguing a number of things you claimed I was arguing in the other thread.<\/p>\n Pelagianism is not a rejection that God gives Grace: it is a rejection that God\u2019s Grace is necessary. I think you should consider the Council of Orange\u2019s capitula on the matter,\u00a0Letter to the Duke of Norfolk<\/em><\/span>.<\/span><\/p>\n That\u2019s the classic Catholic treatment of conscience.<\/p>\n And compare it to this statement in the CCC:<\/span><\/p>\n 405 Although it is proper to each individual, original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam\u2019s descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to\u00a0<\/span>it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin \u2013 an inclination to evil that is called concupiscence. Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ\u2019s grace, erases original sin and turns a man back towards God, but the consequences for nature, weakened and\u00a0<\/span>inclined to evil, persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle.<\/span><\/p>\n That\u2019s right. This is an Arminian, Wesleyan, or Catholic understanding of the Fall. Are you willing to go on record in saying that your Wesleyan and Lutheran and most pentecostal<\/a> and independent evangelical brothers are Semi-Pelagians, who deny Grace Alone? Are they, therefore, not Christians, either, if they are Semi-Pelagians? How does that work?<\/p>\n I\u2019m sure I understand what the Council of Orange was opposing, and why.<\/span><\/p>\n Good. Now if you could just figure out that this is dogmatic Catholic teaching, strongly reinforced at Trent, you would go a long way.<\/p>\n What I don\u2019t understand is why Rome does not abide by what the Council set forth.<\/span><\/p>\n This false perception on your part is due, I believe, to your difficulty in interpretation, as I speculated upon, above. Something must account for it, because our documents couldn\u2019t be more clear than they are, on this. That should come as good news to you, if only I could persuade you of it, unless you want the Catholic Church to be officially Pelagian, for some odd reason, and so can\u2019t come to see that it isn\u2019t at all.<\/p>\n The catechism says many things can help in the formation of conscience \u2014 including the Magisterium, and thereby the Holy Spirit. The problem is that it says the conscience itself is enough to guide a man in the doing of good deeds.<\/span><\/p>\n I\u2019ll provide this much concession: the Catechism does say that the conscience is part of what God, in creation, gave man to be in the image of God, and perhaps one can construct\u00a0an \u201cultimate grace\u201d argument for the grace of conscience (something, by the way, the catechism refuses to say \u2013 conscience is not a grace but the partner of free will in the dignity of man).<\/span><\/p>\n I submit that the following section does this, contra your assertion:<\/p>\n The gift called \u2018imperfect\u2019 (or, \u2018attrition\u2019) is also a gift of God, a prompting of the Holy Spirit. It is born of the consideration of sin\u2019s ugliness or the fear of eternal damnation and the other penalties threatening the sinner (contrition of fear). Such a stirring of conscience can initiate an interior process which, under the prompting of grace, will be brought to completion by sacramental absolution. By itself, however, imperfect contrition cannot obtain the forgiveness of grace sins, but it disposes one to obtain forgiveness in the sacrament of Penance. (#1453)<\/span><\/p>\n Now, if even this imperfect (not even perfect) contrition can only arise as a gift of God\u2019s grace, a prompting of the Holy Spirit in one\u2019s conscience, and can\u2019t obtain absolution for grave sins (thus probably resulting in hellfire), then how can you possibly claim that we believe a man can be saved by the mere possession of conscience? Your fight here is with your liberal Protestant buddies, not with us. You have also overlooked #1776 in the Catechism, which cites Vatican II:<\/p>\n Deep within his conscience man discovers a law which he has not laid upon himself but which he must obey . . . For man has in his heart a law inscribed by God . . . God whose voice echoes in his depths.<\/span><\/p>\n Who made the conscience? God. Who inscribed that law in our hearts? God. Whose is the voice of conscience? God\u2019s. But who do you think the Catholic Church teaches, is the originator of conscience? Man. And CCC #1777 cites Romans 2:14-16, just as I did, before I saw it.<\/p>\n The problem is to what extent that \u201cimage\u201d was changed in the fall, and whether the fall, in removing from man that initial state of holiness which Adam had per the catechism,\u00a0changed man in a way which allows Man in his own power to do what is right before God.<\/span><\/p>\n We can do a small measure of good, and we can know that God exists, from creation and our consciences (themselves wholly derived from God). We cannot save ourselves \u2014 not in any way, shape, or form. This is the biblical, patristic, and Catholic position. Why fight about things we already agree on? There are enough real differences to occupy our time.<\/p>\n In Catholicism, the ultimate cause of our justification is always God\u2019s grace \u2014 in Catholic\/Tridentine teaching just as much as in Reformed. But we view grace as the Ultimate Cause, not in contradiction to works, as Luther and Calvin would say (as pertains to justification and salvation, anyway \u2014 I understand that they place works as a requirement under the category of sanctification). Catholics believe in \u201cjustification by grace through faith\u201d (because of Christ), but we deny the notion of \u201cjustification by grace alone through faith alone\u201d (because of Christ alone).<\/p>\n The latter is not a biblical concept. The difference lies in the exclusivistic, dichotomous use of the word alone. Faith alone implies that works are excluded from the formula altogether. The Catholic rejects this, on the basis of James 2 and other passages: faith and works cannot be separated in such a fashion; they are two blades of a pair of scissors, two sides of a coin.<\/p>\n But we can assert with you that \u201cwe are justified by grace through faith because of Christ.\u201d This is a true formula. We are justified by grace (i.e., again, contrary to Pelagianism and Semi-Pelagianism) and through faith (as we are not robots without free agency), and (of course) because of Christ and His shed blood and redemptive, atoning work for us on the Cross.<\/p>\n I have always thought (since converting) that the differences in this area largely boil down to a certain all-pervasive bent of mind in Protestantism which Louis Bouyer (a convert from Lutheranism) called the \u201cdichotomous mindset,\u201d or what has been described as an \u201ceither\/or\u201d way of thinking \u2013 as opposed to the Catholic \u201cboth\/and.\u201d We believe such thinking is unbiblical: James 2:24 concisely denies the formula of \u201cfaith alone.\u201d<\/p>\n The fallacy and false premise on the Reformed side (apart from what I would argue is an unbiblical notion of human free will) lies in asserting that to keep faith and works together in justification somehow leads to a detraction from the primacy of God\u2019s grace and the promotion of self-produced Pelagian works on the part of man. Calvinism cannot see the middle ground which I and my Church see here, because (in my opinion) its own system simply will not allow it as a logical and scriptural possibility.<\/p>\n For the Calvinist, oftentimes, free will (and the accompanying possibility of grace-produced merit) equals Pelagianism (or Semi-Pelagianism). Likewise, free will is regarded as a lessening of, and \u201cintrusion\u201d upon God\u2019s divine prerogatives in Providence and Sovereignty and Predestination. What we argue is that God\u2019s Providence is \u201cbig\u201d enough to incorporate human free will without impinging upon Divine Sovereignty. That\u2019s it in a nutshell.<\/p>\n The issue is whether we can cooperate with God in our salvation or not. Free will is not inherently opposed to free grace. There simply is no need to make that dichotomy. We assert that man\u2019s free will and God\u2019s sole initiative in salvation co-exist. It is difficult, paradoxical, mysterious in many ways, but it appears to be the teaching of Scripture, and is solidly backed by Christian Tradition. God initiates and empowers the seeking. Since we are not robots, we are actually freely choosing to act upon the grace that we receive through no merit of our own.<\/p>\n We agree with you that salvation always is caused by God, by His free, unmerited grace. Again, I reiterate that we don\u2019t deny that God saves us, solely through the work of Jesus and His shed blood on the cross on our behalf. The official teaching on matters related to merit was set down very eloquently by the Council of Trent, in its\u00a0On the Necessity and on the Fruit of Satisfaction<\/i>\u00a0(session 14, November 25, 1551 \u2014 emphasis added). Now I want someone to tell me how the following in any way, shape or form denies a \u201cgrace and faith-based salvation maintained by God\u201d?:<\/p>\n [W]e are made conformable to Jesus Christ, Who satisfied for our sins (Romans 5:10, 1 John 2:1 ff.), from Whom all our sufficiency is (2 Corinthians 3:5); having also thereby a most sure pledge that, if we suffer with Him, we shall also be glorified with Him (Romans 8:17). But neither is this satisfaction, which we discharge for our sins, so our own as not to be through Jesus Christ. For we who can do nothing of ourselves, as of ourselves, can do all things, He cooperating who strengthens us (Philippians 4:13). Thus, man has not wherein to glory, but all our glorying is in Christ (1 Corinthians 1:31, 2 Corinthians 10:17, Galatians 6:14): in Whom we live; in Whom we merit (cf. Acts 17:28); in Whom we satisfy; bringing forth fruits worthy of penance (Luke 3:8), which from Him have their efficacy; by Him are offered to the Father; and through Him are accepted by the Father . . .<\/p><\/blockquote>\n In Catholicism, salvation does not originate from both God and man. That is the heresy of Semi-Pelagianism. It always originates with God. This is Catholic theology. Trent is very clear, in its Canon I on Justification:<\/p>\n If anyone saith that man may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature or that of the law, without the grace of God through Jesus Christ; let him be anathema.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n Protestants, too, walk the aisle, say the sinner\u2019s prayer, accept the Lord\u2019s work on their behalf, repent, get baptized (i.e., an adult who converts to Christianity, who had never been baptized), give witness to their changed life, etc. All of these things are\u00a0doing<\/i>\u00a0something, even though the Holy Spirit certainly begins all of them in the person\u2019s heart (as also in our theology).<\/p>\n ***<\/p>\n Photo credit:\u00a0<\/strong><\/span>Tumisu<\/a>\u00a0(12-8-19)<\/span> [Pixabay<\/a> \/ Pixabay license<\/a>]<\/p>\n ***<\/p>\n<\/body><\/html>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":" [originally posted on 8 May 2002 from public board discussions; Anti-Catholic polemicist Frank Turk\u2019s words will be in\u00a0blue; Catechism citations will be in\u00a0green] *** If you are suggesting that Rome does not provide a semi-pelagian view of grace and the nature of man, you have to rationalize the catechism in paragraphs 1786-1794. This is referring […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2331,"featured_media":51511,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[231,50],"tags":[12044,2099,2342,8919,3815,1471,1210,3816,1070,2341,1072,1071,1586,243,2098,8645],"class_list":["post-51508","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-anti-catholicism","category-salvation-justification","tag-catechism-of-the-catholic-church","tag-co-workers-with-god","tag-faith-alone","tag-frank-turk","tag-gods-fellow-workers","tag-grace-alone","tag-merit","tag-monergism","tag-pelagianism","tag-salvation","tag-salvation-by-works","tag-semi-pelagianism","tag-sola-gratia","tag-soteriology-2","tag-synergism","tag-works-alone"],"yoast_head":"\n