{"id":51521,"date":"2020-09-24T12:54:32","date_gmt":"2020-09-24T16:54:32","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/?p=51521"},"modified":"2020-09-24T12:54:32","modified_gmt":"2020-09-24T16:54:32","slug":"futility-explaining-anti-catholicism-to-an-anti-catholic","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2020\/09\/futility-explaining-anti-catholicism-to-an-anti-catholic.html","title":{"rendered":"Futility: Explaining Anti-Catholicism to an Anti-Catholic"},"content":{"rendered":"<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC \"-\/\/W3C\/\/DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional\/\/EN\" \"http:\/\/www.w3.org\/TR\/REC-html40\/loose.dtd\">\n<html><head><meta http-equiv=\"content-type\" content=\"text\/html; charset=utf-8\"><meta http-equiv=\"content-type\" content=\"text\/html; charset=utf-8\"><\/head><body><p style=\"text-align: center;\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignnone size-full wp-image-51524\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-media.patheos.com\/blogs\/sites\/572\/2020\/09\/Frustration5.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"512\" height=\"768\"><\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: center;\">Peter Pike is a Presbyterian. He has been a Reformed Christian since 1995. Some of his\u00a0favorite theologians are\u00a0John Calvin, Jonathan Edwards, John Owen, R. C. Sproul, John Piper, James White, Greg Bahnsen, and A. W. Pink. His words will be in <span style=\"color: #0000ff;\">blue<\/span>.<\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: center;\">*****<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"color: #0000ff;\">Since everyone who disagrees with you is automatically an \u201canti-Catholic\u201d can I just call you an \u201canti-Calvinist\u201d from now on?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>Jason Cebalo, a Catholic, replied:<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"color: #008000;\"><strong>sigh<\/strong>\u00a0If you\u2019d bother to read what Dave actually writes, he doesn\u2019t call everyone who disagrees with him\u00a0<em>anti-Catholic<\/em>. He quite frequently debates Protestants of various stripes without calling them\u00a0<em>anti-Catholic<\/em>. The reason he calls Steve Hays an anti-Catholic is because Hays does not recognise Catholics as Christians. By this logic you can\u2019t call Dave anti-Calvinist [because] he accepts Calvinists as brothers in Christ. You can however, call certain extreme-trads anti-Calvinist or anti-Protestant, but Dave is (rightly) very critical of their attitude.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>I made a clear distinction between\u00a0<em>anti-Catholic<\/em>\u00a0and\u00a0<em>Protestant<\/em>\u00a0in a recent comment on\u00a0<em>Triablogue<\/em>\u00a0(as I\u2019ve done probably 300 times by now in many many papers). I also did\u00a0in the post\u00a0under which these comments were written: \u201c. . . your anti-Catholic view (<em>not Protestantism per se<\/em>, but only the fringe anti-Catholic aspect of a tiny group of Protestants) . . .\u201d \u2014 italics in original.<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"color: #0000ff;\">So you say that Steve is anti-Catholic because he thinks that Roman Catholics are not Christian. And yet Steve has said:<\/span><\/p>\n<blockquote><p>Still, it is possible for a Catholic to be saved, unlike a Muslim or Mormon or other suchlike.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p><span style=\"color: #0000ff;\">And:<\/span><\/p>\n<blockquote><p>Unlike the other three, it is possible for a Roman Catholic to be saved.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p><span style=\"color: #0000ff;\">And . . .:<\/span><\/p>\n<blockquote><p>But this doesn\u2019t mean that it\u2019s impossible for a Roman Catholic to be saved.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p><span style=\"color: #0000ff;\">So it\u2019s obviously the case that Steve does think there are some saved Catholics. He does not believe all Catholics are damned.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"color: #0000ff;\">How then does he fit the charge that he\u2019s an anti-Catholic, based on your own definition?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>That\u2019s got nothing to do with it, because anti-Catholicism is the belief that the Catholic<strong><em>\u00a0system<\/em><\/strong>\u00a0is not Christian: the\u00a0<strong><em>theology<\/em><\/strong>, not the individual person. He says that is \u201capostate.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>If an individual Catholic is saved (in this mentality), it is\u00a0<em>despite<\/em>\u00a0Catholic teachings, not <em>because<\/em> of them (that\u2019s precisely why he has to play games with my own case and make out that I am either ignorant or opposed to teachings of my own Church). That\u2019s classic anti-Catholic belief: most anti-Catholic apologists I\u2019m aware of (e.g., White, Svendsen) think this way.<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"color: #0000ff;\">Would you not agree that any Calvinists who are saved are saved\u00a0despite\u00a0Calvinism?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>We don\u2019t think that way of Protestants. We think that they have errors and lack the \u201cfullness,\u201d but that saving grace is possible to obtain within Protestantism through baptism, Bible study, prayer, etc. We even believe that Protestant marriage is a sacrament. We say trinitarian Protestants are fully deserving of the title \u201cChristian\u201d and are members of the Body of Christ just as they are.<\/p>\n<p>It\u2019s a matter of \u201cvery good\u201d and \u201cbest\u201d rather than \u201cbad\u201d vs. \u201cgood\u201d.<\/p>\n<p>[responding to someone else]<span style=\"color: #0000ff;\">\u00a0I doubt that it is any less offensive for you to call me an anti-Catholic than it is for me to say you might possibly be saved in Catholicism.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"color: #0000ff;\">The term <em>anti-Catholic<\/em> is extremely loaded and prejudicial. You speak as if the Protestant side is equating it to a racial comment; but that is exactly what you do with your anti-Catholic terms too.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"color: #0000ff;\">I can just as easily say that anyone who uses the term anti-Catholic deserves no more of a hearing than a KKK member too.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>* * *<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"color: #0000ff;\">You are correct that you have not called me such; Dave Armstrong, however,\u00a0<i>has<\/i>\u00a0called me an anti-Catholic before (although I doubt he remembers it \u2014 we had a discussion on Kerry Gillard\u2019s e-mail list back in 1998 or 1999).<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"color: #0000ff;\">In any case, the Council of Trent anathematized me when it said in Canon 9 (among others, which need not be quoted at this point):<\/span><\/p>\n<blockquote><p>If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p><span style=\"color: #0000ff;\">I do believe in justification by faith alone based on God\u2019s eternal election. Indeed, this is the very heart of Calvinism. So am I to suppose you consider me to be an anathematized Christian? (How, exactly, would that work?) Or do you disagree that the Council of Trent was authoritatively binding?<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"color: #0000ff;\">But here is the thing to consider. I believe Justification is the heart of the Gospel. Furthermore, Trent has anathematized my position. Therefore, Catholicism has pronounced a curse on what I believe is the heart of the Gospel. In what way could I consider an institution that\u00a0<i>curses<\/i>\u00a0the heart of the Gospel to be Christian?<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"color: #0000ff;\">Does this make me an anti-Catholic, or does it just make me a consistent Protestant?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>* * *<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"color: #0000ff;\">Dave, after all,\u00a0<i>cannot<\/i>\u00a0answer my specific question: \u201cWould you not agree that any Calvinists who are saved are saved\u00a0<i>despite<\/i>\u00a0Calvinism?\u201d He knows that if he says \u201cYes\u201d to it, then he must\u00a0<i>by his own definition<\/i>\u00a0be an anti-Calvinist; but if he answers \u201cNo\u201d to it then he is agreeing that Calvinism is true.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"color: #0000ff;\">But Layne, you typify the problem with using the term \u201canti-Catholic.\u201d It\u2019s a convenient label that lets you avoid all discourse. It\u2019s like saying, \u201cOh, you don\u2019t have to listen to CalvinDude. He\u2019s an anti-Catholic. Why bother answering his questions? He\u2019s a blinded bigot.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"color: #0000ff;\">If it makes it easier for you, go for it. It\u2019s not going to ruin my day any.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>* * *<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"color: #0000ff;\">All I have said is that the point that I consider to be the heart of the Gospel, Justification by Faith Alone, is specifically cursed by the Council of Trent.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"color: #0000ff;\">Apparently, you consider adherence to the Trinity and baptism in Christ to be the heart of the Gospel.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"color: #0000ff;\">At this point, I can say we disagree; yet I have not\u00a0<i>anathematized<\/i>\u00a0your position, like Trent has mine. At this point, the furthest I would go is to say that not knowing your view of Justification, I would have to be agnostic towards whether you are saved or not. I would not necessarily conclude you are damned.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"color: #0000ff;\">Trent, on the other hand, doesn\u2019t give me this option.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"color: #0000ff;\">I do wonder why you guys don\u2019t follow Trent here if you consider it an authoritative Council.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"color: #0000ff;\">You said:<\/span><\/p>\n<blockquote><p>Dave makes it a point not to argue with people who do not accept the Catholic Church as a Christian Institution, and that\u2019s why he has not answered you.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p><span style=\"color: #0000ff;\">That might be the excuse he uses, but the bottom line is that answering the question in either way is bad for him (as I demonstrated above), so the only thing he\u00a0<i>can<\/i>\u00a0do is ignore it.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>The truth of the matter is that I didn\u2019t, of course, ignore it at all. Pike seemed to have thought there was too long of a gap in my answering, so he concluded that I either couldn\u2019t answer or was too scared to, or both. He asked the question at 1:45 PM, by the time in the comments. It so happened that this day a very good friend came by, who lives out of town (Protestant, by the way), and we always play chess, so I was delayed a bit.<\/p>\n<p>Pike stated twice in the interim that I couldn\u2019t answer his question and so had to ignore it. But nevertheless, despite the company, I did reply to the question by 7:43 PM, a little under six hours later (when my friend was playing chess with my youngest son). So much for Pike\u2019s prognostications.\u00a0Nor was this supposedly tremendously difficult question all that hard to answer.<\/p>\n<p>* * *<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"color: #0000ff;\">Would you not agree that any Calvinists who are saved are saved\u00a0<em>despite<\/em>\u00a0Calvinism?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>Whoever is saved is saved by the grace of God through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on his behalf. The dispute here is: what is\u00a0<em>Christian\u00a0<\/em>and what isn\u2019t, and on what basis?<\/p>\n<p>Trent condemned the absolute separation of faith and works. I don\u2019t see that even John Calvin did that. He thought (and so do most Calvinists) that one is saved by \u201cfaith alone\u201d but not a faith that<strong><em>\u00a0is<\/em><\/strong>\u00a0alone and that any saving faith will necessarily show forth the works that will inevitably flow from it if indeed it is true saving faith. [see:\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2016\/02\/john-calvin-good-works-manifest-true-saving-faith.html\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\">John Calvin: Good Works Manifest True Saving Faith<\/a>\u00a0(9-4-08) ]<\/p>\n<p>So there is your cooperation with God; hence that aspect of Calvinism was not, I believe, condemned by Trent. I think what is condemned there is more like the extreme faith alone position that John MacArthur opposed in his book,\u00a0<em>The Gospel According to Jesus<\/em>\u00a0(i.e., the opposite of Lordship salvation). But that is not classic \u201cReformation\u201d teaching: it is Anabaptistic or Baptist thinking (even then, one must look at the particular strain of Baptist theology).<\/p>\n<p>For the 753rd time: \u201canti-Catholic\u201d is currently in use by<a href=\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2018\/04\/use-of-anti-catholic-in-non-catholic-scholarly-works.html\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\"> hundreds of scholars<\/a>: by\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2019\/01\/theological-doctrinal-anti-catholicism-scholarly-use.html\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\">historians<\/a> and <a href=\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2020\/02\/anti-catholic-scholars-use-it-both-as-a-noun-adjective.html\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\">sociologists<\/a> and various religious scholars. If you don\u2019t like my use of it, take it up with <em>them<\/em>. My use is entirely consistent, but it is\u00a0James White\u00a0and\u00a0Eric Svendsen\u00a0who apply double standards, since they object to \u201canti-Catholic\u201d while they freely use \u201canti-Calvinist\u201d and \u201canti-Reformed.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"color: #0000ff;\">\u201cWhy bother answering his questions? He\u2019s a blinded bigot.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n<p>My use does not necessarily imply any such thing at all. It simply means \u201cone who denies that the Catholic theological system, or the Church, is a Christian institution.\u201d\u00a0<strong><em>Period<\/em><\/strong>.<\/p>\n<p>Now, it does seem that many who are anti-Catholics do have a personally bigoted view of Catholics (from my long experience and how I myself have been treated by such folks), but the word itself does not include bigotry <em>as part of its definition<\/em> at all.<\/p>\n<p>I am anti-abortion, anti-homosexual \u201cmarriage\u201d, anti-feminism, anti-liberalism, anti-terrorist. I\u2019m not bigoted against any of the people who advocate these things. The homosexual activists, for example, would like to make out that being opposed to their lifestyle on moral grounds is bigotry, but of course you and I both know it is not.<\/p>\n<p>The anti-Catholic\u2019s main problem is colossal ignorance and a blind spot a mile wide. He starts with false assumptions, relentlessly builds upon them, and will accept no correction, no matter how minor. And his view is viciously self-defeating.<\/p>\n<p>I wouldn\u2019t compare anti-Catholics (not most of them today) to the KKK at all; my comparison would be to those who believe in a flat earth or the man in the moon. It\u2019s not a matter of intelligence, but of gullibility and acceptance of false premises through environment, denominational requirement, etc.<\/p>\n<p>The leading anti-Catholics are not unintelligent men. White, Svendsen, Hays, are all very intelligent. But intelligence itself is no particular indicator of a person holding a true or cogent position or not.<\/p>\n<p>Here is one example from a scholar.\u00a0James Davison Hunter, who is one of the leading Protestant sociologists of religion of our time, from his book,\u00a0<i>Culture Wars: The Struggle to Define America<\/i>, New York: HarperCollins, 1991:<\/p>\n<blockquote><p>[A]lthough much of the anti-Catholic hostility was born out of economic rivalry and ethnic distrust, it took expression primarily as\u00a0<i>religious<\/i>\u00a0hostility \u2014 as a quarrel over religious doctrine, practice, and authority. (p. 71)<\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p>That is the extent of the exchange on my blog (at least as of the time of writing). Pike later made a post\u00a0on his blog. It looks like it was probably written before my responses were made, so he\u2019ll get cut slack for that. But after he reads my comments on the blog and these present ones, I expect to see a modification of his blog post or else the refusal to modify it according to the facts of the matter shall be duly noted here:<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"color: #0000ff;\"><strong><em>Ad Hominem and Other Various Catholic Things<\/em><\/strong><\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"color: #0000ff;\">I had almost forgotten the joy that is internet Catholic apologists. Then, I asked one simple question and get the full wrath of them brought upon me.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>\u201cWrath\u201d? \u201cFull wrath\u201d at that? There may have been a little friction, but hardly anything this melodramatic. You came in with guns blazing away, and asked a question that I have answered many times on my website, so a few people (including myself) pointed that out and expressed frustration. But I carefully answered your questions, after this blog post of yours was written.<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"color: #0000ff;\">And it wasn\u2019t even a doctrinal issue.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>It\u00a0is\u00a0doctrinal, insofar as the definition of\u00a0<em>anti-Catholic<\/em>\u00a0is inherently a doctrinal issue.<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"color: #0000ff;\">Dave Armstrong\u00a0has this interesting habit of labeling everyone who disagrees with his view of Catholicism as an \u201canti-Catholic.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n<p>This is wrong, and stupidly, ridiculously, ultra-frustratingly so. You said you had interacted with me as long as seven or eight years ago. Am I to believe that you have never seen my website, and that you are unable to seek out my answer to this question there, to spare us all the aggravation of going over the ABC\u2019s? Others had already explained carefully to you that this is not the case; so did I in a line in the post about Steve Hays that you were commenting under.<\/p>\n<p>So you have no excuse for this idiotic comment even on that basis alone. But if you would trouble himself to learn the slightest thing about someone you want to go after on his own blog, you could travel to my\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2006\/11\/anti-catholicism-index-page.html\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\">Anti-Catholicism page<\/a>\u00a0(one mouse click away from my blog on the top right sidebar), hit the link in the index for \u201d \u2018Anti-Catholic\u2019: Definitional and Terminological Controversies\u201d and see that I have many papers\u00a0on this general topic alone.<\/p>\n<p>If you navigated my blog much at all, you could and certainly <em>would<\/em> quickly discover that anti-Catholics by no means make up all the Protestants that I dialogue with: not by a long shot.<\/p>\n<p>All of this massive evidence is readily observable. The anti-Catholics I know show no more signs of understanding this rather simple distinction now than they did eleven years ago, when I had <a href=\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2017\/11\/catholicism-christian-vs-james-white-pt-1.html\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\">my long postal debate with James White<\/a>, even before I went online.<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"color: #0000ff;\">So I asked: \u201cSince everyone who disagrees with you is automatically an \u2018anti-Catholic\u2019 can I just call you an \u2018anti-Calvinist\u2019 from now on?\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"color: #0000ff;\">Dave decided to first ignore that,<\/span><\/p>\n<p>This question I didn\u2019t intend to answer at first (I did later), and the reason was as I explained above: I have answered it so many times on my website, that it is almost an insult to even be asked it again. So someone else offered an answer. Big wow.<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"color: #0000ff;\">leaving it to Jason Cebalo to charge me with not reading anything Dave writes (yeah, that must be why I see how many people he calls anti-Catholic; because I\u2019m not reading anything he\u00a0writes).<\/span><\/p>\n<p>Is it not reasonable to conclude that you have not done so, seeing that on the exact topic you asked me about, <a href=\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2016\/05\/debates-on-the-term-anti-catholicism.html\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\">I have written seventeen papers<\/a>, all listed together in their own category, on my\u00a0Anti-Catholicism\u00a0page? In fact, six of those are even on the topic of the terms\u00a0<em>anti-Calvinist<\/em>,\u00a0<em>anti-Reformed<\/em>, etc. So I had already explained this. You claim you have read my stuff, you interacted with me as long as seven years ago, but you couldn\u2019t locate any of those papers?What is so\u00a0<em>difficult<\/em>\u00a0about it, pray tell?<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"color: #0000ff;\">He claimed that Dave calls Steve Hays an anti-Catholic because Hays supposedly says Catholics aren\u2019t Christian.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"color: #0000ff;\">This despite Steve\u2019s direct statements to the opposite that he does, indeed, view salvation as\u00a0<em>possible<\/em>\u00a0within Roman Catholicism.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>I clarified exactly what I meant, so I expect this to be modified by you after having read my perfectly reasonable explanations (agree or disagree).<\/p>\n<p>Thanks for showing so much consideration for my time and efforts that you couldn\u2019t figure out my views on a topic after I reiterated them again, or by consulting any of my seventeen papers on the subject. But I\u2019m a rude scoundrel (possibly expressing <span style=\"color: #0000ff;\">\u201cfull wrath\u201d<\/span> \u2014 as you described our replies) because I get fed up with repeating myself till I am blue in the face. I answered again\u00a0anyway\u00a0despite this frustration.<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"color: #0000ff;\">Armstrong continues:<\/span><\/p>\n<blockquote><p>I made a clear distinction between anti-Catholic and Protestant in a recent post on\u00a0<em>Triablogue<\/em>\u00a0(as I\u2019ve done probably 300 times by now in many many papers).<\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p><span style=\"color: #0000ff;\">Yet Dave\u2019s \u201cdistinction\u201d is this:<\/span><\/p>\n<blockquote><p>This distorts what I wrote, which was that Steve might reason himself out of\u00a0<em>anti-Catholicism<\/em>, not Protestantism. The two are not identical. The vast majority of Protestants are not anti-Catholics.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p><span style=\"color: #0000ff;\">But this doesn\u2019t show us how Dave is\u00a0<em>distinguishing<\/em>\u00a0between the two. He is only mentioning that he does do so.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>First of all, my many papers explain more in-depth. Go read them. Secondly, that remark alone is sufficient (no matter how much \u201cdistinguishing\u201d it does) to put the lie to your claim that:\u00a0<span style=\"color: #0000ff;\">\u201ceveryone who disagrees with you is automatically an \u201canti-Catholic\u201d<\/span>. To show that that is false, all I had to do was show that I don\u2019t consider <em>anti-Catholic<\/em> a synonym of<em> Protestant<\/em>. In other words, plenty of Protestants \u201cdisagree\u201d with me and I don\u2019t label them \u201canti-Catholic\u201d at all.<\/p>\n<p>Therefore, this statement on Steve\u2019s blog was more than adequate to refute your dumb claim about what I supposedly do and believe. I didn\u2019t\u00a0<em>have<\/em>\u00a0to write a dissertation on it for you to know this. But if you want an in-depth examination, I offer plenty of that in my papers.<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"color: #0000ff;\">But we don\u2019t know the inner workings of Dave Armstrong\u2019s mind. How are we to know how he distinguishes between anti-Catholics and Protestants in general? The only thing we have are his words.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>Indeed: hundreds of thousands of them out there on the Internet. So why are we discussing this at all? I\u2019ve written on it literally for over ten years online. No one who knows how to read, knows the least thing about searching or clicking a mouse, or who knows the alphabet (to select in my list of topical pages on my sidebar), should be in the dark as to what I believe about this. If you had read anything on the topic that I wrote, you wouldn\u2019t have asked the question; therefore, since you asked it, I concluded that you hadn\u2019t read the stuff!<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"color: #0000ff;\">Based on other things he has written, it seems to boil down to this: if you object to anything Dave Armstrong says about Catholicism, you are an anti-Catholic; if you don\u2019t say anything, you can still be a Protestant.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>Is that so? I\u2019d love to find out, then, what in the world of mine that you have read, to come to this asinine, ridiculous conclusion? Please, don\u2019t keep us in suspense for a moment longer.<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"color: #0000ff;\">True Prots will just shut up and stay on the sidelines and not meddle with important folks, such as Dave Armstrong.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>Is that why I have probably over a hundred dialogues with Protestants who aren\u2019t anti-Catholics on the Internet? That really fits in with this downright stupid cardboard caricature of my alleged attitudes, doesn\u2019t it?<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"color: #0000ff;\">What Armstrong and his followers don\u2019t realize is that the term \u201canti-Catholic\u201d is a very specifically designed term. It is their attempt to impute irrational bias onto the Protestant such that the Protestant is just a hate-filled, bitter person who is incapable of seeing the truth of Catholicism. Thus, he is forced to rage in his anti-Catholic pride, unable to see the light of reason.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>That is not how I use it, as explained; this is not how many (Protestant) scholars use it, either.<\/p>\n<p>[but remember, Pike\u2019s comments here were written before I explained; again, let\u2019s see if he modifies them; I\u2019ll be monitoring his blog to see if he does or not. If he does, I\u2019ll be happy to post any clarifying statements or retractions that he wants to make, alongside his original comments].<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"color: #0000ff;\">Armstrong never considers that maybe there are people who just disagree with him.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>No kidding? Who\u2019s the mind-reader now? You objected to someone doing that to you on my blog, and here you are making the most idiotic, ludicrous statements, that only make you look like an utter fool. I currently have\u00a0<strong><em>355 dialogues<\/em><\/strong>\u00a0posted online! But it never occurred to me that people may\u00a0<em>disagree<\/em>\u00a0with me?! What planet do you live on?<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"color: #0000ff;\">No, if you disagree you must be disagreeing out of hateful spite. It must be because you\u2019re an anti-Catholic, not because you\u2019re confident of your own position.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>Already dealt with above . . . Anti-Catholics are quite confident, just like anyone else. Ecumenical Protestants are quite confident. Of course; no big revelation there.<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"color: #0000ff;\">Calling someone an anti-Catholic is like calling someone an anti-Semite. The connotations are the same, and Armstrong fully knows that.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>This is absolutely untrue.<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"color: #0000ff;\">Nor is Armstrong alone. He has much company in the internet realm of Catholic apologists.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>And in the realm of Protestant historians and sociologists (per my papers linked above) . . .<\/p>\n<p>If someone argues in a lousy way, that has nothing directly to do with me. There are plenty of people who use \u201canti-Catholic\u201d in a wrong manner. I have written about that, too, and have those comments in my papers. I detest<em>\u00a0ad hominem<\/em>\u00a0attacks. I have written about this on many occasions. I criticize other Catholics when they need to be criticized. I have even specifically condemned personal attacks on\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/web.archive.org\/web\/20111012131250\/http:\/\/socrates58.blogspot.com\/2005\/07\/eric-svendsen-hits-nail-on-head.html\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\">Eric Svendsen<\/a>\u00a0and\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/web.archive.org\/web\/20111012131250\/http:\/\/socrates58.blogspot.com\/2005\/05\/my-utter-condemnation-of-anti.html\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\">James White<\/a>\u00a0(I\u2019ve done the latter several times and have paid him many compliments).<\/p>\n<p>This is all a matter of public record. I even have a page devoted to\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/web.archive.org\/web\/20111012131250\/http:\/\/ic.net\/~erasmus\/RAZ178.HTM\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\">links from James White<\/a>\u00a0that I agree with. Try to get him to link to anything I write, in a commendatory fashion, though!<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"color: #0000ff;\">Given recent history, the first Catholic response to this will be to say that I\u2019m just a James White sycophant.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>I don\u2019t know who you are from Adam, so how would I know your history. I have no objection to your speaking out against personal attacks on White, because chances are I would agree with what you are saying myself. I\u2019ve seen some of them and they are stupid and uncalled-for. There is a mountain of things wrong on White\u2019s writings; why bother with personal stuff?<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"color: #0000ff;\">This despite the fact that White and I disagree on some very important issues (I, after all, am a Presbyterian, not a Reformed Baptist). No, I must be one of his mindless #pros drones (after all, I once was a constant feature in #prosapologian!). Thus, I am obviously just another one of those anti-Catholic, hate-mongerers . . . dismissed out of hand by the application of a stereotype that exists only in the minds of rabid anti-Calvinists, such as Dave Armstrong and\u00a0his\u00a0sycophants.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>Think what you will. I think you are dead-wrong on this issue, but I make no accusations of hatred towards anyone.<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"color: #0000ff;\">I find it sad on both sides, actually. I would love to live in the idealistic dream-world where everyone listened to the strengths of the arguments instead of focusing on the personality of the proponent of the argument.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>That would be nice, wouldn\u2019t it?<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"color: #0000ff;\">Sometimes I think James White goes a little too far; but he\u2019s downright restrained compared to the folks that write about\u00a0<i>him<\/i>.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>Perhaps, but he has a ton to account for as well in this regard. He gives out his share of personal attacks. I was accused of \u201chating\u201d him myself simply because a friend of mine did a take-off on one of the caricatures of him that is on his blog. Have you seen all the bilge that anti-Catholics have written about me? White thinks he is attacked a lot? I\u2019ll guarantee I can match his attacks. I\u2019ve been called everything under the sun (and he himself is one of my most vicious, slanderous critics; utterly obstinate despite countless corrections of his errors of fact).<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"color: #0000ff;\">And White, at least, doesn\u2019t say something without the ability to back it up with examples (thus, even when he engages in <em>ad hominem<\/em> (which is nowhere near as often as folks like Armstrong claim), his statements are still factually true). This is not the case in reverse.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>I think many of the criticisms of him are ridiculous, but White has guilt in a different sense, because he knows better when he goes after people. He knows (judging by his condemnations when others do it) it isn\u2019t right, but does it anyway.<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"color: #0000ff;\">Frankly, the state of internet Roman Catholic apologists is one of the best arguments\u00a0<i>against<\/i>\u00a0their position that I can think of.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>You can make general statements (that are impossible to disprove by their nature) if you like. I have shown that the specific statements about my views that you have made are inaccurate, and inexcusably, outrageously so. If you are honest, and are reading this paper, your responsibility under God is to make the necessary corrections, in light of my explanations. If you don\u2019t, then I\u2019ll have no choice but to conclude that you wish to deliberately misrepresent me, and why anyone would want to do such a thing is for them to analyze and ponder in their own mind.<\/p>\n<p>***<\/p>\n<p>(originally posted on 9-21-06)<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"color: #008000;\"><strong>Photo credit:<\/strong><\/span>\u00a0<a class=\"external text decorated-link\" href=\"https:\/\/www.flickr.com\/people\/55499300@N06\" rel=\"nofollow\" target=\"_blank\">Cubmundo<\/a>\u00a0<span style=\"color: #0000ff;\">(10-7-11)<\/span> [<a href=\"https:\/\/commons.wikimedia.org\/wiki\/File:Frustration.jpg\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\">Flickr<\/a> \/\u00a0<a class=\"extiw decorated-link\" title=\"w:en:Creative Commons\" href=\"https:\/\/en.wikipedia.org\/wiki\/en:Creative_Commons\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\">Creative Commons<\/a>\u00a0<a class=\"external text decorated-link\" href=\"https:\/\/creativecommons.org\/licenses\/by-sa\/2.0\/deed.en\" rel=\"nofollow\" target=\"_blank\">Attribution-Share Alike 2.0 Generic<\/a>\u00a0license]<\/p>\n<p>***<\/p>\n<\/body><\/html>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Peter Pike is a Presbyterian. He has been a Reformed Christian since 1995. Some of his\u00a0favorite theologians are\u00a0John Calvin, Jonathan Edwards, John Owen, R. C. Sproul, John Piper, James White, Greg Bahnsen, and A. W. Pink. His words will be in blue. ***** Since everyone who disagrees with you is automatically an \u201canti-Catholic\u201d can I [&hellip;]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2331,"featured_media":51524,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[231],"tags":[3081,855,2361,2573,3085,2778,3086,997,190,3084,880,729,3083,2607,1070,12047,691,2606,3082,1071,385,2608,2599,3087],"class_list":["post-51521","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-anti-catholicism","tag-3081","tag-anti-catholic","tag-anti-catholicism","tag-antichrist","tag-boettner","tag-christian-sects","tag-christianity","tag-cults","tag-idolatry","tag-jack-chick","tag-mass","tag-paganism","tag-papism","tag-papists","tag-pelagianism","tag-peter-pike","tag-reformation","tag-romanism","tag-rome","tag-semi-pelagianism","tag-transubstantiation","tag-unregenerate","tag-whore-of-babylon","tag-works-salvation"],"yoast_head":"<!-- This site is optimized with the Yoast SEO plugin v21.1 - https:\/\/yoast.com\/wordpress\/plugins\/seo\/ -->\n<title>Futility: Explaining Anti-Catholicism to an Anti-Catholic Futility: Explaining Anti-Catholicism to an Anti-Catholic<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"Peter Pike is a Presbyterian. He has been a Reformed Christian since 1995. Some of his\u00a0favorite theologians are\u00a0John Calvin, Jonathan Edwards, John Owen, Few things are more exasperating than defining anti-Catholicism to a proponent of it, &amp; noting the elementary distinction between ecumenical Protestants &amp; the minority of anti-Catholics.\" \/>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"noindex, follow\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"en_US\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:type\" content=\"article\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:title\" content=\"Futility: Explaining Anti-Catholicism to an Anti-Catholic Futility: Explaining Anti-Catholicism to an Anti-Catholic\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:description\" content=\"Peter Pike is a Presbyterian. He has been a Reformed Christian since 1995. Some of his\u00a0favorite theologians are\u00a0John Calvin, Jonathan Edwards, John Owen, Few things are more exasperating than defining anti-Catholicism to a proponent of it, &amp; noting the elementary distinction between ecumenical Protestants &amp; the minority of anti-Catholics.\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:url\" content=\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2020\/09\/futility-explaining-anti-catholicism-to-an-anti-catholic.html\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:site_name\" content=\"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism\" \/>\n<meta property=\"article:author\" content=\"https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/dave.armstrong.798\" \/>\n<meta property=\"article:published_time\" content=\"2020-09-24T16:54:32+00:00\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:image\" content=\"https:\/\/wp-media.patheos.com\/blogs\/sites\/572\/2020\/09\/Frustration5.jpg\" \/>\n\t<meta property=\"og:image:width\" content=\"512\" \/>\n\t<meta property=\"og:image:height\" content=\"768\" \/>\n\t<meta property=\"og:image:type\" content=\"image\/jpeg\" \/>\n<meta name=\"author\" content=\"Dave Armstrong\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:card\" content=\"summary_large_image\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:label1\" content=\"Written by\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:data1\" content=\"Dave Armstrong\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:label2\" content=\"Est. reading time\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:data2\" content=\"21 minutes\" \/>\n<script type=\"application\/ld+json\" class=\"yoast-schema-graph\">{\"@context\":\"https:\/\/schema.org\",\"@graph\":[{\"@type\":\"WebPage\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2020\/09\/futility-explaining-anti-catholicism-to-an-anti-catholic.html\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2020\/09\/futility-explaining-anti-catholicism-to-an-anti-catholic.html\",\"name\":\"Futility: Explaining Anti-Catholicism to an Anti-Catholic Futility: Explaining Anti-Catholicism to an Anti-Catholic\",\"isPartOf\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/#website\"},\"datePublished\":\"2020-09-24T16:54:32+00:00\",\"dateModified\":\"2020-09-24T16:54:32+00:00\",\"author\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/#\/schema\/person\/471eaa20e441eca4bb1ea50393cf632e\"},\"description\":\"Peter Pike is a Presbyterian. 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Formerly a campus missionary, as a Protestant, Dave was received into the Catholic Church in February 1991, by the late, well-known catechist and theologian, Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave\u2019s articles have appeared in many influential Catholic periodicals, including \\\"This Rock\\\" (now called \\\"Catholic Answers Magazine\\\"), \\\"Envoy Magazine\\\" (Patrick Madrid), \\\"The Catholic Answer,\\\" \\\"The Coming Home Journal,\\\" \\\"Gilbert Magazine\\\" (American Chesterton Society), and \\\"The Latin Mass.\\\" He also writes a featured column for every issue of \\\"The Michigan Catholic\\\": published by the archdiocese of Detroit, and was editor for most of the apologetics tracts published by the St. Paul Street Evangelization apostolate. Dave\u2019s apologetics and writing apostolate was the subject of a feature article in the May 2002 issue of \\\"Envoy Magazine.\\\" He served as the staff moderator at the Internet discussion forum for The Coming Home Network, from 2007-2010. Dave has been interviewed on many nationally syndicated Catholic radio shows, including \\\"Catholic Answers Live\\\" (twice), \\\"Faith and Family Live\\\" (Steve Wood), \\\"Kresta in the Afternoon,\\\" \\\"Son Rise Morning Show,\\\" \\\"Catholic Connection\\\" (Teresa Tomeo), and \\\"The Catholics Next Door.\\\" His large and popular website, \\\"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism,\\\" was online from March 1997 to March 2007, and received the 1998 Catholic Website of the Year award from \\\"Envoy Magazine.\\\" His blog of the same name (now transferred to Patheos), begun in February 2004, contains more than 1,500 papers, at least 500 debates or dialogues, and over 50 distinct \\\"index\\\" web pages. Unsolicited correspondence has indicated many hundreds of conversions (or returns) to the Catholic faith as a result, by God's grace, of these writings. Dave's conversion story was published in the bestselling book \\\"Surprised by Truth\\\" (edited by Patrick Madrid; San Diego: Basilica Press, 1994). Sophia Institute Press has published six of his books: \\\"A Biblical Defense of Catholicism\\\" (Foreword by Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J., 1996 \/ 2003), \\\"The Catholic Verses\\\" (2004), \\\"The One-Minute Apologist\\\" (2007), \\\"Bible Proofs for Catholic Truths\\\" (2009), \\\"The Quotable Newman\\\" (editor: 2012), and \\\"Proving the Catholic Faith is Biblical\\\" (2015). He is co-author (with Dr. Paul Thigpen) of the inserts for \\\"The New Catholic Answer Bible\\\" (Our Sunday Visitor: 2005), and editor for \\\"The Wisdom of Mr. Chesterton: The Very Best Quotes, Quips, and Cracks from the Pen of G. K. Chesterton\\\" (Saint Benedict Press \/ TAN Books: 2009). \\\"100 Biblical Arguments Against Sola Scriptura\\\" was published by Catholic Answers in May 2012. His \\\"Quotable Wesley\\\" compilation was published by (Protestant \/ Wesleyan publisher) Beacon Hill Press in April 2014. Several of his 49 books are bestsellers in their field. Dave maintains a popular personal Facebook page, a Facebook author page, and has a Twitter account as well. He offers almost all of his books in e-book form on his own Biblical Catholicism site (http:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/), at a permanent deep discount: only $2.99 for ePub, mobi, and AZW, and $1.99 for PDF. His writing has been enthusiastically endorsed or recommended by many leading Catholic apologists, authors, and priests, including Dr. Scott Hahn, Fr. Peter M. J. Stravinskas, Marcus Grodi, Patrick Madrid, Steve Ray, Tim Staples, Devin Rose, Mike Aquilina, Al Kresta, Karl Keating, Fr. Dwight Longenecker, Brandon Vogt, Marcellino D'Ambrosio, and Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave has been happily married to his wife Judy since October 1984. They have three sons and a daughter, and reside in southeast Michigan (metro Detroit).\",\"sameAs\":[\"https:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/\",\"https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/dave.armstrong.798\",\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/@LuxVeritatisApologetics\"],\"url\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/author\/davearmstrong\"}]}<\/script>\n<!-- \/ Yoast SEO plugin. -->","yoast_head_json":{"title":"Futility: Explaining Anti-Catholicism to an Anti-Catholic Futility: Explaining Anti-Catholicism to an Anti-Catholic","description":"Peter Pike is a Presbyterian. He has been a Reformed Christian since 1995. 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Formerly a campus missionary, as a Protestant, Dave was received into the Catholic Church in February 1991, by the late, well-known catechist and theologian, Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave\u2019s articles have appeared in many influential Catholic periodicals, including \"This Rock\" (now called \"Catholic Answers Magazine\"), \"Envoy Magazine\" (Patrick Madrid), \"The Catholic Answer,\" \"The Coming Home Journal,\" \"Gilbert Magazine\" (American Chesterton Society), and \"The Latin Mass.\" He also writes a featured column for every issue of \"The Michigan Catholic\": published by the archdiocese of Detroit, and was editor for most of the apologetics tracts published by the St. Paul Street Evangelization apostolate. Dave\u2019s apologetics and writing apostolate was the subject of a feature article in the May 2002 issue of \"Envoy Magazine.\" He served as the staff moderator at the Internet discussion forum for The Coming Home Network, from 2007-2010. Dave has been interviewed on many nationally syndicated Catholic radio shows, including \"Catholic Answers Live\" (twice), \"Faith and Family Live\" (Steve Wood), \"Kresta in the Afternoon,\" \"Son Rise Morning Show,\" \"Catholic Connection\" (Teresa Tomeo), and \"The Catholics Next Door.\" His large and popular website, \"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism,\" was online from March 1997 to March 2007, and received the 1998 Catholic Website of the Year award from \"Envoy Magazine.\" His blog of the same name (now transferred to Patheos), begun in February 2004, contains more than 1,500 papers, at least 500 debates or dialogues, and over 50 distinct \"index\" web pages. Unsolicited correspondence has indicated many hundreds of conversions (or returns) to the Catholic faith as a result, by God's grace, of these writings. Dave's conversion story was published in the bestselling book \"Surprised by Truth\" (edited by Patrick Madrid; San Diego: Basilica Press, 1994). Sophia Institute Press has published six of his books: \"A Biblical Defense of Catholicism\" (Foreword by Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J., 1996 \/ 2003), \"The Catholic Verses\" (2004), \"The One-Minute Apologist\" (2007), \"Bible Proofs for Catholic Truths\" (2009), \"The Quotable Newman\" (editor: 2012), and \"Proving the Catholic Faith is Biblical\" (2015). He is co-author (with Dr. Paul Thigpen) of the inserts for \"The New Catholic Answer Bible\" (Our Sunday Visitor: 2005), and editor for \"The Wisdom of Mr. Chesterton: The Very Best Quotes, Quips, and Cracks from the Pen of G. K. Chesterton\" (Saint Benedict Press \/ TAN Books: 2009). \"100 Biblical Arguments Against Sola Scriptura\" was published by Catholic Answers in May 2012. His \"Quotable Wesley\" compilation was published by (Protestant \/ Wesleyan publisher) Beacon Hill Press in April 2014. Several of his 49 books are bestsellers in their field. Dave maintains a popular personal Facebook page, a Facebook author page, and has a Twitter account as well. He offers almost all of his books in e-book form on his own Biblical Catholicism site (http:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/), at a permanent deep discount: only $2.99 for ePub, mobi, and AZW, and $1.99 for PDF. His writing has been enthusiastically endorsed or recommended by many leading Catholic apologists, authors, and priests, including Dr. Scott Hahn, Fr. Peter M. J. Stravinskas, Marcus Grodi, Patrick Madrid, Steve Ray, Tim Staples, Devin Rose, Mike Aquilina, Al Kresta, Karl Keating, Fr. Dwight Longenecker, Brandon Vogt, Marcellino D'Ambrosio, and Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave has been happily married to his wife Judy since October 1984. They have three sons and a daughter, and reside in southeast Michigan (metro Detroit).","sameAs":["https:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/","https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/dave.armstrong.798","https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/@LuxVeritatisApologetics"],"url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/author\/davearmstrong"}]}},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/51521","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/2331"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=51521"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/51521\/revisions"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/51524"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=51521"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=51521"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=51521"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}