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Atheist and anti-theist<\/span>\u00a0Bob Seidensticker<\/a>\u00a0runs the influential<\/span>\u00a0Cross Examined<\/em><\/a>\u00a0blog. He asked me there,<\/span>\u00a0on 8-11-18<\/a>:\u00a0\u201cI\u2019ve got 1000+ posts here attacking your worldview. You just going to let that stand? Or could you present a helpful new perspective that I\u2019ve ignored on one or two of those posts?\u201d<\/span>\u00a0He added in June 2017<\/span>\u00a0in a combox<\/a>:\u00a0\u201cIf I\u2019ve misunderstood the Christian position or Christian arguments, point that out. Show me where I\u2019ve mischaracterized them.\u201d Delighted to oblige his wishes . . .\u00a0<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n Bob (for the record) virtually\u00a0begged<\/em>\u00a0and\u00a0pleaded<\/em>\u00a0with me to dialogue with him in May 2018, via email. But b<\/span>y\u00a010-3-18<\/a>,\u00a0following<\/span>\u00a0massive, childish name-calling attacks<\/a>\u00a0against me,\u00a0 encouraged by Bob on his blog, he banned me from commenting there. I also banned him for violation of my rules for discussion<\/a>, but (unlike him)\u00a0provided detailed reasons<\/em><\/a> for why<\/em> it was justified.<\/span><\/p>\n Bob\u2019s cowardly hypocrisy knows no bounds.<\/span>\u00a0On 6-30-19<\/a>, he was chiding someone for something very much like his own behavior:\u00a0<\/span>\u201cSpoken like a true weasel trying to run away from a previous argument. You know, you could just say, \u2018Let me retract my previous statement of X\u2019 or something like that.\u201d<\/span>\u00a0Yeah,\u00a0Bob<\/em>\u00a0could!<\/span>\u00a0\u00a0He still hasn\u2019t yet uttered one peep in reply<\/a>\u00a0to \u2014 now \u2014 66 of my critiques of his atrocious reasoning.<\/span><\/p>\n Bible-Basher Bob reiterated and rationalized his intellectual cowardice yet again on 10-17-20:<\/span> \u201cEvery engagement with him [yours truly]<\/span> devolves into pointlessness. I don\u2019t believe I\u2019ve ever learned anything from him.\u00a0But if you find a compelling argument of his, summarize it for us.\u201d<\/span> And again the next day:<\/span> \u201cHe has certainly not earned a spot in my heart, so I will pass on funding his evidence-free project. Like you, I also find that he\u2019s frustrating to talk with. Again, I evaluate such conversations as useful if I can learn something\u2013find a mistake in my argument, uncover an error I made in Christians\u2019 worldview, and so on. Dave is good at bluster, and that\u2019s about it.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n Bible-Basher Bob\u2019s words will be in<\/span>\u00a0blue<\/span>.\u00a0To find these posts, follow this link:\u00a0<\/span>\u201c<\/span>Seidensticker Folly #\u201d<\/a> or see all of them linked under his own section on my<\/span> Atheism page<\/a>.<\/p>\n *****<\/p>\n In his post, \u201cAbout Atheists\u2019 Empty Worldview . . .\u201d<\/a> (12-9-20), Bible-Bashing Bob takes up this question:<\/span><\/p>\n \u201cAtheism\u2019s Empty Soul<\/a>\u201d is a recent article from Alan Shlemon of the Stand to Reason ministry. Shlemon tries to slap some sense into those hard-hearted atheists by showing the inevitable, grave consequences of their worldview. Shlemon informs us that the atheist worldview, seen correctly, is nihilism, the view that life is meaningless.<\/span><\/p>\n Something always seems to be off when someone tells me that I haven\u2019t assembled the components of my worldview correctly, but that they\u2019re happy to educate me about how that would look.<\/span><\/p>\n Bob is obviously oblivious to the extreme<\/em> irony of his last sentence above: seeing that he expends tremendous energy daily seeking to poke holes in the Christian worldview: always seemingly believing that he knows more about the Bible and Christianity than almost all Christians do . . .\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n Atheists, does \u201cempty and devoid of meaning\u201d sound like your life?<\/span><\/p>\n First of all, Shlemon\u2019s article was much more about logical progression, as opposed to claiming \u201call \/ many atheists are in fact<\/em>, nihilists.\u201d He does, however, claim that \u201cSeveral atheists who have been candid with me have told me life is ultimately empty and devoid of meaning.\u201d That\u2019s not insignificant and can\u2019t be dismissed as of no relevance whatever. Those<\/em> atheists did<\/em> give that report about their life<\/em>. But the gist of his argument (as it has been of mine throughout the years, as I will document below) is the following logical point:<\/span><\/p>\n That doesn\u2019t mean they can\u2019t feel happy, follow a set of morals, or believe their life is significant in some way. . . .\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n Perhaps the most egregious consequence<\/em> of naturalism is nihilism . . .\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n Nihilism . . . flows logically<\/em> from naturalism . . . [my italics]<\/span><\/p><\/blockquote>\n Since it is primarily an argument about logical reductions or consequences, it follows that not all atheists in fact (for many and complex reasons) will report<\/em> that they are nihilists or feel<\/em> as if nihilism is the true state of affairs. Therefore, it\u2019s irrelevant for Bob to appeal to atheist\u2019s stated outlooks. The argument is much more subtle and nuanced than that. Bob does show that he kinda-sorta<\/em> gets it by stating, \u201c<\/span>the atheist worldview, seen correctly, is nihilism . . .\u201d And he actually (surprisingly) concedes the entire argument, too:<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n The key word here is \u201cultimately,\u201d and, yes, an atheist\u2019s life has no\u00a0ultimate<\/em>, cosmic, eternal, or objective meaning.<\/span><\/p>\n Very true, and this logically leads to the philosophy of nihilism. But Bob softens this by immediately adding:<\/span> \u201cBut does the Christian\u2019s? They claim their lives have ultimate meaning, of course, but they need to show their work.\u201d That\u2019s a separate discussion, of course, and I and many other apologists, theologians, and philosophers are more than happy to discuss it from where we sit. Right now the topic is whether atheism logically leads to nihilism. Bob even adds:<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n He says it\u2019s fine to criticize a worldview by showing that it\u2019s incoherent or contradictory internally, and I would add that it\u2019s fine to show where a worldview collides with the facts of reality.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n We Christians readily agree on both counts, and assert that atheism massively suffers from both problems.<\/span><\/p>\n Show me that a sizeable fraction of atheists feel that life is meaningless. Nihilism certainly doesn\u2019t describe\u00a0my<\/em>\u00a0life philosophy. As with the \u201clife [for an atheist] is ultimately empty and devoid of meaning\u201d claim above, atheists should consider whether nihilism describes their lives.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n Here again, Bob falls into a mere sociological discussion<\/em> of what is<\/strong><\/em>; as opposed to a logical \/ philosophical discussion<\/em> of what conclusion arguably follows \u2014 as a matter of logical reduction or progression \u2014 from a particular set of premises. He\u2019s confusing two different discussions.<\/span><\/p>\n I have written many times about this idea that atheism logically and consistently leads to nihilism. It\u2019s what I believe, and have believed for as long as I can remember. Here are some of my thoughts on the topic from four of my articles;<\/span><\/p>\n I am talking about the ultimate logical implications of atheism, regardless of how one subjectively reacts to them. The very fact of objectivism and subjectivism (assuming one grants both as realities) allows the possibility that the atheist is not subjectively facing the objective logical implications of atheism (which I maintain are nihilism and despair).<\/span><\/p>\n People of all stripes do this all the time. We all are able to make it through life and be reasonably happy (at least on a surface, superficial level) because we are all masters at (the great majority of the time)\u00a0not<\/i>\u00a0thinking about the truly important things in life. I do it; you do it, we all do. We all concentrate on this movie coming up, on that hot date, on the latest U2 or Van Morrison album (two of my favorites), on this new opportunity or hobby, etc. So the fact that most atheists are fairly happy, fulfilled people (like Christians or Buddhists or Zoroastrians or Druids) is of little relevance to my overall point in this discussion.<\/span> (The \u201cProblem of Good\u201d: Great Dialogue with an Atheist:\u00a0(the Flip Side of the Problem of Evil Argument Against Christianity) + the Nature of Meaningfulness in Atheism [Part Two]<\/a> [vs. Mike Hardie], 6-5-01; this is, by the way, my very favorite dialogue<\/em> out of the more than a thousand I\u2019ve participated in)<\/span><\/p>\n I\u2019ve devoted my life as a Christian apologist to showing that there are indeed many many such rational considerations, and that non-religious \/ atheist alternatives are ultimately irrational and incoherent (leading to existential despair and nihilism), . . .<\/span> (Is Christianity Proof-Free Belief & \u201cRidiculous\u201d?<\/a>, 4-13-17)<\/span><\/p>\n I do contend (as a\u00a0general proposition<\/em><\/strong>) that a serious Christian commitment will lead to\u00a0a more fulfilled, purposeful, meaningful life than it would have been otherwise<\/em>; also, that \u2014 again, as a\u00a0general proposition<\/em>\u00a0\u2013, atheism leads to less of those things, up to and including a nihilistic despair that the entire universe is ultimately meaningless. How that works out in specific cases is exceedingly complex, and there will be a million exceptions for a thousand reasons. That\u2019s why I\u2019m only speaking\u00a0very broadly<\/em>\u00a0(i.e., sociologically). I\u2019m\u00a0not addressing<\/em>\u00a0individual cases (including Anthony Bourdain).<\/span> (Social Science: Religion Leads to Lower Suicide Rates<\/a>, 6-9-18)<\/span><\/p>\n I have contended for 37 years now, . . . that rejection of Christianity and God will lead in the end to despair, [ultimate] meaninglessness, and nihilism. It may take many years to finally hit home, because human beings are great at diversions and covering up, but it will end there.<\/span><\/p>\n It\u2019s loving on our part to say this to non-believers. We have something to share with them: not out of felt superiority or spiritual arrogance or naivete, but out of\u00a0love<\/em>. We share about the blessings of God because we have experienced them ourselves, and want others to experience them, too: as many as possible.<\/span><\/p>\n I feel so much for people who are in despair, or struggling every day to get through life. I\u2019ve been there.\u00a0I deal with depression in my family every day and have, most of my life. I went through one very severe, clinical period of depression for six months in 1977. It was truly a period of hopeless, existential despair and agony and torment. I have never had it since (I became an evangelical Protestant and devoted my life to Christ as His disciple in the middle of it). But I\u2019ve been constantly\u00a0around<\/em>\u00a0it.<\/span><\/p>\n My entire family (six people) has struggled with serious depression at one time or another, and so I am very concerned about it. . . .<\/span><\/p>\n I think Christianity (yes, including all its moral teachings and precepts) clearly plays a role in providing hope and meaning.<\/span> (Christianity, Depression, Peace, Comfort, Hope, & Joy<\/a>, 6-9-18)<\/span><\/p><\/blockquote>\n ***<\/p>\n Photo credit:<\/span><\/strong>\u00a0Lars_Nissen\u00a0<\/a>(2-11-17)<\/span> [Pixabay<\/a> \/\u00a0Pixabay License<\/a>]<\/p>\n ***<\/p>\n<\/body><\/html>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":" Atheist and anti-theist\u00a0Bob Seidensticker\u00a0runs the influential\u00a0Cross Examined\u00a0blog. He asked me there,\u00a0on 8-11-18:\u00a0\u201cI\u2019ve got 1000+ posts here attacking your worldview. You just going to let that stand? Or could you present a helpful new perspective that I\u2019ve ignored on one or two of those posts?\u201d\u00a0He added in June 2017\u00a0in a combox:\u00a0\u201cIf I\u2019ve misunderstood the Christian position […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2331,"featured_media":53251,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[124],"tags":[2519,1738,1043,745,258,12512,12509,335,4126,329,1367,5552,11372,11360],"class_list":["post-53246","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-atheism-agnosticism","tag-alleged-biblical-contradictions","tag-anti-christian-bigotry","tag-anti-theism","tag-anti-theists","tag-atheism","tag-atheism-meaninglessness","tag-atheism-nihilism","tag-atheists","tag-bob-seidensticker","tag-christian-apologetics","tag-critiques-of-christianity","tag-cross-examined","tag-meaninglessness","tag-nihilism"],"yoast_head":"\n