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Dr. Lydia McGrew<\/a> is a traditional Anglican philosopher. I am very fond of her and her work. I posted a little quotation from St. John Henry\u00a0 Newman (as an Anglican) about prayer for the dead and tagged her on Facebook<\/a>. She showed up and we got into a great discussion (always the case with her). Her words will be in blue<\/span>.<\/p>\n *****<\/p>\n Dr. Lydia McGrew is a traditional Anglican philosopher. I am very fond of her and her work. I posted a little quotation from St. John Henry\u00a0 Newman (as an Anglican) about prayer for the dead and tagged her on Facebook. She showed up and we got into a great discussion (always the case with her). […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2331,"featured_media":54997,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[206],"tags":[5663,201,13177,13174,413,198,2397,1263,411,2396,372,13168,11174,208,13165,13171,195,13184,207,1402,209,13180,5651,13183,412],"class_list":["post-54991","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-saints-purgatory-penance","tag-abraham-lazarus","tag-communion-of-saints","tag-elijah-prayed-for-the-dead","tag-elisha-prayed-for-the-dead","tag-hades","tag-intercession","tag-intercession-of-angels","tag-intercession-of-saints","tag-intermediate-state","tag-invocation-of-angels","tag-invocation-of-saints","tag-jesus-prayed-for-the-dead","tag-lydia-mcgrew","tag-onesiphorus","tag-paul-prayed-for-the-dead","tag-peter-prayed-for-the-dead","tag-prayer","tag-prayer-for-to-the-dead","tag-prayer-for-the-dead","tag-prayers-for-the-dead","tag-purgatory-2","tag-rich-man-and-abraham","tag-saul-and-samuel","tag-saul-prayed-to-samuel","tag-sheol"],"yoast_head":"\n\n\n
Anglican Newman on St. Paul\u2019s Prayer for the Dead (Onesiphorus)<\/em><\/div>\n<\/blockquote>\n<\/div>\n\n
\n[W]hat does St Paul mean when he says of Onesiphorus \u2019The Lord grant him to find mercy of the Lord in that day?\u2019 [2 Tim 1:16-18; cf. 4:19] Did his prayer go for nothing? To say that he prayed that Onesiphorus might so conduct himself on earth as to receive mercy at the Judgment seems a refinement; not to say that from the run of the passage Onesiphorus seems to be dead when St Paul wrote.<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n
\u2014 Letters & Diaries<\/em>, vol. 10; To Anthony John Hanmer, 16 March 1844<\/div>\n<\/blockquote>\n*<\/div>\nI\u2019m not convinced he was dead.<\/span><\/div>\n<\/div>\n*<\/div>\nThat\u2019s one way to get out of it. See:<\/div>\n*<\/div>\nWas Onesiphorus Dead When Paul Prayed for Him?: Data from 16 Protestant Commentaries (1992-2016)\u00a0<\/a>[3-20-17]<\/div>\n*<\/div>\nAlso, prayers for the dead are not the same as prayers to the dead.<\/span><\/div>\n*<\/div>\nYep.<\/div>\n*<\/div>\nAt this point I lean towards accommodating some type of prayers for the dead, though carefully kept in check so that they don\u2019t assume knowledge we don\u2019t have (about how or whether they are effective). I have much bigger hesitations about prayers to the dead.<\/span><\/div>\n*<\/div>\nFair enough, given your overall position.<\/div>\n*<\/div>\n\n\nWas Peter praying for the dead with regard to Tabitha? If not, what was he praying for in 9:40?:<\/div>\n*<\/div>\n<\/div>\n\n\n
Acts 9:36-37, 40<\/strong> (RSV) Now there was at Joppa a disciple named Tabitha, which means Dorcas. She was full of good works and acts of charity. [37] In those days she fell sick and died; and when they had washed her, they laid her in an upper room. . . . [40] But Peter put them all outside and knelt down and prayed; then turning to the body he said, \u201cTabitha, rise.\u201d And she opened her eyes, and when she saw Peter she sat up.<\/div>\n<\/blockquote>\n<\/div>\n\n*<\/div>\nAnd did Jesus pray for a dead man, Lazarus? If not, what was He praying for in 11:41?:<\/div>\n<\/div>\n\n*<\/div>\n\n
John 11:41-44<\/strong> So they took away the stone. And Jesus lifted up his eyes and said, \u201cFather, I thank thee that thou hast heard me. [42] I knew that thou hearest me always, but I have said this on account of the people standing by, that they may believe that thou didst send me.\u201d [43] When he had said this, he cried with a loud voice, \u201cLaz\u2019arus, come out.\u201d [44] The dead man came out, his hands and feet bound with bandages, and his face wrapped with a cloth. Jesus said to them, \u201cUnbind him, and let him go.\u201d<\/div>\n<\/blockquote>\n*<\/div>\n\n\nElijah and Elisha also prayed for the dead before they were raised; therefore, they prayed for the dead, and it is recorded in Scripture:<\/div>\n*<\/div>\n<\/div>\n\n\n
Elijah<\/em>: 1 Kings 17:17-24 (17:21: \u201cThen he stretched himself upon the child three times, and cried to the LORD, \u201cO LORD my God, let this child\u2019s soul come into him again.\u201d).<\/div>\n<\/blockquote>\n<\/div>\n\n*<\/div>\n\n
Elisha<\/em>: 2 Kings 4:18-37 (4:33: \u201cSo he went in and shut the door upon the two of them, and prayed to the LORD.\u201d).<\/div>\n<\/blockquote>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n*<\/div>\n<\/div>\n\nThey\u2019re all certainly talking to \/ addressing dead people, which many Protestants tell us the Bible and Christianity absolutely forbid.<\/div>\n*<\/div>\nI don\u2019t think you\u2019re helping your case with situations where a prophet (or God Incarnate) prays for the resurrection of a dead person. Those are not the situation we are in and are not what is usually meant by prayers for the dead. What is meant by that is prayer for his state in<\/em>\u00a0the afterlife. I\u2019m not, as I said, entirely closed to epistemically modest prayers for his state in the afterlife, but I think those should be kept sharply distinct from an apostle\u2019s prayer asking God to enable him to raise someone from the dead to ordinary life here on earth\u2013a literal miracle.<\/span><\/div>\n*<\/div>\nSure there is a difference, but I never denied<\/em> that there was. So what were Jesus and Peter praying for when they prayed? What is it if it wasn\u2019t prayer for a dead person: to rise from the dead? And that is undeniably a species of prayer for the dead: just a special, very rare kind.<\/div>\n*<\/div>\n\n\n\n
Those are not the situation we are in<\/span><\/div>\n<\/blockquote>\n*<\/div>\n<\/div>\n\nJesus rather matter-of-factly refers to raising people from the dead:<\/div>\n*<\/div>\n<\/div>\n\n\n
Matthew 10:8<\/strong> Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse lepers, cast out demons. You received without paying, give without pay.<\/div>\n<\/blockquote>\n*<\/div>\n<\/div>\n\nOne may argue that these were His first disciples, and that He specifically gave them \u201cauthority\u201d (10:1), but<\/em><\/strong> the rest<\/em> of the chapter is usually applied to the Christian believer in general.<\/div>\n*<\/div>\nLots of people have been raised from the dead<\/a> in Catholic history.<\/div>\n*<\/div>\nI just think that\u2019s a red herring. It isn\u2019t even what Protestants and Catholics are debating when they differ about prayers for the dead. By the way, it\u2019s very interesting to me that neither Protestant nor Catholic doctrine provides for an afterlife that is metaphysically indeterminate as far as whether or not the person is eventually going to go to heaven. In both systems, that is determined at the time of death. But let\u2019s admit that the places where we are most inclined (psychologically) to pray for someone dead are the places where we are worried about whether he was saved, died in a state of grace, etc. <\/span><\/div>\n*<\/div>\nIn fact, the Pauline prayer you quote above seems to be a prayer about Onesiphorus\u2019s ultimate spiritual destiny. If it\u2019s legitimate and effective to pray for someone to be ultimately saved after that person has died, both Protestant and Catholic theologies are going to have to come up with an explanation for this\u2013perhaps the prayer\u2019s affecting some timeless reality or something. Or else introduce a literally metaphysically ambiguous state after death, which neither system now has.<\/span><\/div>\n*<\/div>\n\n\nInteresting point (I\u2019ll have to think more about that). You still don\u2019t tell me what Jesus and Peter were praying for and how it is not<\/em><\/strong> \u201cprayer for the dead.\u201d Special cases (granted). Nevertheless, it\u2019s still a legitimate consideration and related to the overall question at hand. There are always rare or special cases with regard to anything<\/em>.<\/div>\n*<\/div>\nIt\u2019s just an ambiguity on the term. I do not at all see that it provides evidence<\/em>\u00a0for the effectiveness of prayers for the dead in the relevant sense that Catholics and Protestants debate over. It isn\u2019t something you would pray for everyone, for example, whereas if prayers for the dead in the relevant sense are legit, one could pray them for everyone, or at least for all Christian dead, at a minimum. Prayers for a resurrection also have a completely clear meaning, which prayers for the dead in the relevant sense don\u2019t have. And so forth.<\/span><\/div>\n*<\/div>\n\n\nI guess I would posit one of two scenarios in Paul\u2019s prayer for Onesiphorus (\u201cmay the Lord grant him to find mercy from the Lord on that Day\u201d):<\/div>\n*<\/div>\n<\/div>\n\n\n
1) By \u201cmercy\u201d he might mean \u201cless \u2018time\u2019 in purgatory\u201d; whereby God would extend mercy with regard to the degree of temporal punishment for sins; i.e., Onesiphorus would get to heaven in an easier fashion.<\/div>\n<\/blockquote>\n<\/div>\n\n*<\/div>\n\n
2) Or it is a retroactive prayer<\/a> regarding Onesiphorus\u2019 salvation: applied backwards in time (from our perspective), but able to be prayed because God is outside of time and can apply our prayers to the past.<\/div>\n<\/blockquote>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n*<\/div>\nBut they did pray for the dead, right? In this case, they prayed that they would be raised, which is a species of prayer for the dead. I am not denying that it is a special case. I\u2019m not claiming for the argument more than it delivers.<\/div>\n*<\/div>\nI think it\u2019s irrelevant to the question of whether or not there is such a thing as an effective prayer for someone\u2019s better state in the afterlife. A prayer for a resurrection is a prayer for an event in this world\u2013either as a sign to others, or to send a person back here because he\u2019s needed here, or both.<\/span><\/div>\n*<\/div>\n\n\nSo by this response you keep making I will assume that you grant that it is a species of prayer for the dead, but a very rare one, so that it has no analogy or relevance to \u201crun-of-the-mill\u201d \/ \u201cnormative\u201d [in some Christian traditions] prayers for the dead in purgatory.<\/div>\n<\/div>\n\n*<\/div>\nI say it proves what it proves. It\u2019s an example of one particular type of prayer for dead people, and we have four examples in Holy Scripture: Elijah, Elisha, St. Peter, and Jesus.<\/div>\n<\/div>\n\n*<\/div>\nIntercessory requests made to dead people are of course taught by Jesus in his story (not parable!) of Lazarus and the rich man (Luke 16). Abraham is prayed to and asked to grant two requests. His answer was \u201cno\u201d in both cases, but he never rebuked the rich man for praying to him or asking him to intercede to God.<\/div>\n<\/div>\n\n*<\/div>\nIn other words, a refusal to grant a prayer request is conceptually distinct from a denial that the request ought to be made at all<\/strong><\/em> to a [dead] creature, as opposed to God.<\/div>\n*<\/div>\n<\/div>\n\nTherefore, the practice is proper, and (rather explicitly and undeniably) taught by Jesus Himself.<\/div>\n<\/div>\n\n*<\/div>\n\n\nKing Saul also made a petitionary request of Samuel (though he summoned him in a sinful way: through a medium). Nevertheless, it really was<\/em> Samuel, and Saul did<\/em> make a petition<\/em>: \u201cI am in great distress; for the Philistines are warring against me, and God has turned away from me and answers me no more, either by prophets or by dreams; therefore I have summoned you to tell me what I shall do\u201d (1 Samuel 28:15).<\/div>\n*<\/div>\n<\/div>\n\nAgain, Samuel didn\u2019t say, \u201cwhy are you asking me<\/em>; don\u2019t you know you can only ask God<\/em> for things and not dead human beings?\u201d Instead, Samuel said: \u201cWhy then do you ask me, since the LORD has turned from you and become your enemy?\u201d (1 Sam 28:16). In other words, in effect he says, \u201cwhy are you praying at all<\/strong><\/em>: whether to me as an intermediary, or to God, since you have rebelled against God and He has turned from you also?\u201d<\/div>\n*<\/div>\n<\/div>\n\nNone of this shows that we must never communicate with at all, or ask the intercession of, notable dead people like Samuel or Abraham. All it shows is that they turned down the requests (but because they were against God\u2019s will, rather than due to a supposed prohibition against such a thing ever happening at all).<\/div>\n*<\/div>\nRelated Reading<\/span><\/strong><\/div>\n*<\/div>\nDialogue with an Anglican on \u201cPraying to Mary,\u201d Patron Saints, Etc.<\/a>\u00a0(vs. Dr. Lydia McGrew) [11-10-14]<\/div>\n*<\/div>\n***<\/div>\n*<\/div>\nPhoto credit:\u00a0<\/strong><\/span>Tabitha is raised from the dead by Peter\u2019s prayer<\/em> (1712), by Jan Luyken (1649-1712 )<\/span> [Wikimedia Commons<\/a> \/\u00a0Creative Commons<\/a>\u00a0CC0 1.0 Universal Public Domain Dedication<\/a>]<\/div>\n*<\/div>\n***<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/body><\/html>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"