{"id":55760,"date":"2021-03-27T14:35:05","date_gmt":"2021-03-27T18:35:05","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/?p=55760"},"modified":"2021-03-27T14:35:40","modified_gmt":"2021-03-27T18:35:40","slug":"catholic-mass-as-idolatry-reductio-ad-absurdum","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2021\/03\/catholic-mass-as-idolatry-reductio-ad-absurdum.html","title":{"rendered":"Catholic Mass as “Idolatry” Reductio ad Absurdum"},"content":{"rendered":"\n<\/head>
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Some Protestants want to claim that the Mass is idolatrous<\/em>? I could just as easily say (only rhetorically<\/strong><\/em>, not actually<\/em><\/strong>) that their denial of worship of Jesus in the consecrated host is blasphemy<\/em>, since they are going against the very essence of the ritual and miracle by denying that He is really there (therefore they refuse worship and maintain that the bread and wine are never transformed).<\/div>\n
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[excerpt from a Treatise on Transubstantiation that I wrote in 2005]<\/div>\n<\/blockquote>\n<\/div>\n
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JP Prichard<\/em>:\u00a0How edifying\u2026<\/span><\/div>\n
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It\u2019s not meant<\/em> to be edifying. This is a simple rhetorical \/ polemical response to those Protestants who accuse Catholics of idolatry. It\u2019s an instance of \u201cturning the tables.\u201d If you have a substantive disagreement, by all means express<\/em> it. This ain\u2019t Twitter. It\u2019s real discussion on my pages.<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n
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I guess my disagreement\u00a0 is that it isn\u2019t edifying. It does nothing to foster unity. It is not good, pure, excellent, building up the bride of Christ\u2026<\/span><\/div>\n<\/div>\n
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It stirs crap and conflict.<\/span><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n
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I agree that some Protestants calling Catholics idolaters isn\u2019t edifying and doesn\u2019t foster unity at all. That\u2019s why I opposed it. I did not<\/strong><\/em> accuse all (or any) Protestants of blasphemy in their worship. I believe that they worship God in their services and prayer meetings, etc. piously and sincerely (just as I used to as an evangelical Protestant from 1977-1990). Note that I said \u201crhetorically, not actually.\u201d The logic is as follows:<\/div>\n
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If<\/strong> <\/em>person X<\/em> is gonna falsely accuse person Y<\/em> of false belief A<\/em>\u00a0(idolatry), I can just as easily \u2014 by the same token \u2014 argue (only rhetorically, not actually) that their practice and belief B<\/em> is blasphemous.<\/div>\n<\/blockquote>\n<\/div>\n
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It\u2019s a bit subtle, but that\u2019s how the argument works. It\u2019s not trying to foster disunity, but unity<\/em>. It\u2019s showing that the illogical and uncharitable thinking that leads to the charge of idolatry also would lead \u2014 following through with their own logic \u2014 to a charge of blasphemy on their part. Both<\/em> things should be thrown out. It\u2019s a false conclusion built upon false premises.<\/div>\n
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That\u2019s the nature of a reductio ad absurdum<\/em> in argumentation, which is what this was. It\u2019s often misunderstood. I can only explain how it works. I\u2019ve now done so.<\/div>\n
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Probably good that you are allowing these 12 year old discussions to affect (read: justify) present day feelings of superiority with respect to other believers.<\/span><\/div>\n
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There is no \u201cfelt superiority\u201d here. I was responding to a false charge that anti-Catholics make with a reductio ad absurdum<\/em>. Anti-Catholics are but a tiny fringe portion of all Protestants. I made it clear that I don\u2019t deny Protestant piety and sincere devotion to God:<\/div>\n
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I did not<\/strong> <\/em>accuse all (or any) Protestants of blasphemy in their worship. I believe that they worship God in their services and prayer meetings, etc. piously and sincerely (just as I used to as an evangelical Protestant from 1977-1990).<\/div>\n<\/blockquote>\n<\/div>\n
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I\u2019m not accusing \u201cany<\/strong><\/em>\u201d Protestant of blasphemy (or idolatry) in their worship. I\u2019m replying to the position that claims we<\/em><\/strong> are idolaters as we<\/strong><\/em> worship.<\/div>\n
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Related Reading<\/span><\/strong><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n
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Is the Mass Equivalent to OT Golden Calf Worship?<\/a>\u00a0[1996]<\/div>\n
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Why Transubstantiation Isn\u2019t Idolatry At All<\/a>\u00a0[11-22-96]<\/div>\n
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Dialogue: Is the Mass Similar to Jeroboam\u2019s Idolatry?<\/a>\u00a0[8-7-04]<\/div>\n
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Catholic Mass: Can\u2019t Possibly be Idolatrous<\/a>\u00a0[12-15-08]<\/div>\n
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Anti-Catholics & Alleged Catholic Idol-Worship at Mass<\/a>\u00a0[4-11-11]<\/div>\n
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Biblical Evidence for Worship of God Via an Image<\/a>\u00a0[6-24-11]<\/div>\n
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Biblical Idolatry: Authentic & Counterfeit Conceptions<\/a>\u00a0[2015]
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Newsflash!: Catholicism Utterly Opposes Idolatry, Too<\/a>\u00a0[1-18-17]
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Eucharistic Adoration: Explicit & Undeniable Biblical Analogies<\/a>\u00a0[2-1-19]<\/div>\n
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The Absurdity of Claiming That the Mass is Idolatrous<\/a>\u00a0[National Catholic Register<\/em>, 6-17-19]<\/div>\n
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***<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n

(posted originally on Facebook on 12-7-17)<\/p>\n

Photo credit:\u00a0<\/strong>The\u00a0Adoration of\u00a0the\u00a0Golden\u00a0Calf\u00a0<\/i>(1633), by Nicolas Poussin (1594-1665)<\/span>\u00a0[public domain \/\u00a0Wikimedia Commons<\/a>]<\/p>\n

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Summary<\/em>:\u00a0If some Protestants want to argue about the Mass as \u201cidolatry\u201d, I can just as easily argue (i.e., rhetorically, not actually) that their denial of the Real Presence in the Eucharist is blasphemous.<\/p>\n<\/body><\/html>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

Some Protestants want to claim that the Mass is idolatrous? I could just as easily say (only rhetorically, not actually) that their denial of worship of Jesus in the consecrated host is blasphemy, since they are going against the very essence of the ritual and miracle by denying that He is really there (therefore they […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2331,"featured_media":55762,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[58],"tags":[855,2361,3467,416,666,4924,3469,1074,13330,190,191,1229,4576,13327,13333,384,417,385,3466],"class_list":["post-55760","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-eucharist-liturgy","tag-anti-catholic","tag-anti-catholicism","tag-bread-worship","tag-catholic-mass","tag-consubstantiation","tag-golden-calf","tag-graven-images","tag-iconoclasm","tag-idolatrous","tag-idolatry","tag-idols","tag-images","tag-jeroboam","tag-mass-idolatry","tag-mass-as-idolatry-mass","tag-real-presence","tag-sacrifice-of-the-mass","tag-transubstantiation","tag-wafer"],"yoast_head":"\nCatholic Mass as "Idolatry" Reductio ad Absurdum Catholic Mass as "Idolatry" Reductio ad Absurdum<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"Some Protestants want to claim that the Mass is idolatrous? 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I could just as easily say (only rhetorically, not actually) that their denial of worship of If some Protestants want to argue about the Mass as "idolatry", I can just as easily argue (i.e., rhetorically, not actually) that their denial of the Real Presence in the Eucharist is blasphemous.\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:url\" content=\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2021\/03\/catholic-mass-as-idolatry-reductio-ad-absurdum.html\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:site_name\" content=\"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism\" \/>\n<meta property=\"article:author\" content=\"https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/dave.armstrong.798\" \/>\n<meta property=\"article:published_time\" content=\"2021-03-27T18:35:05+00:00\" \/>\n<meta property=\"article:modified_time\" content=\"2021-03-27T18:35:40+00:00\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:image\" content=\"https:\/\/wp-media.patheos.com\/blogs\/sites\/572\/2021\/03\/GoldenCalf.jpg\" \/>\n\t<meta property=\"og:image:width\" content=\"640\" \/>\n\t<meta property=\"og:image:height\" content=\"444\" \/>\n\t<meta property=\"og:image:type\" content=\"image\/jpeg\" \/>\n<meta name=\"author\" content=\"Dave Armstrong\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:card\" content=\"summary_large_image\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:label1\" content=\"Written by\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:data1\" content=\"Dave Armstrong\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:label2\" content=\"Est. reading time\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:data2\" content=\"3 minutes\" \/>\n<script type=\"application\/ld+json\" class=\"yoast-schema-graph\">{\"@context\":\"https:\/\/schema.org\",\"@graph\":[{\"@type\":\"WebPage\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2021\/03\/catholic-mass-as-idolatry-reductio-ad-absurdum.html\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2021\/03\/catholic-mass-as-idolatry-reductio-ad-absurdum.html\",\"name\":\"Catholic Mass as \\\"Idolatry\\\" Reductio ad Absurdum Catholic Mass as \\\"Idolatry\\\" Reductio ad Absurdum\",\"isPartOf\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/#website\"},\"datePublished\":\"2021-03-27T18:35:05+00:00\",\"dateModified\":\"2021-03-27T18:35:40+00:00\",\"author\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/#\/schema\/person\/471eaa20e441eca4bb1ea50393cf632e\"},\"description\":\"Some Protestants want to claim that the Mass is idolatrous? 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Formerly a campus missionary, as a Protestant, Dave was received into the Catholic Church in February 1991, by the late, well-known catechist and theologian, Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave\u2019s articles have appeared in many influential Catholic periodicals, including \\\"This Rock\\\" (now called \\\"Catholic Answers Magazine\\\"), \\\"Envoy Magazine\\\" (Patrick Madrid), \\\"The Catholic Answer,\\\" \\\"The Coming Home Journal,\\\" \\\"Gilbert Magazine\\\" (American Chesterton Society), and \\\"The Latin Mass.\\\" He also writes a featured column for every issue of \\\"The Michigan Catholic\\\": published by the archdiocese of Detroit, and was editor for most of the apologetics tracts published by the St. Paul Street Evangelization apostolate. Dave\u2019s apologetics and writing apostolate was the subject of a feature article in the May 2002 issue of \\\"Envoy Magazine.\\\" He served as the staff moderator at the Internet discussion forum for The Coming Home Network, from 2007-2010. Dave has been interviewed on many nationally syndicated Catholic radio shows, including \\\"Catholic Answers Live\\\" (twice), \\\"Faith and Family Live\\\" (Steve Wood), \\\"Kresta in the Afternoon,\\\" \\\"Son Rise Morning Show,\\\" \\\"Catholic Connection\\\" (Teresa Tomeo), and \\\"The Catholics Next Door.\\\" His large and popular website, \\\"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism,\\\" was online from March 1997 to March 2007, and received the 1998 Catholic Website of the Year award from \\\"Envoy Magazine.\\\" His blog of the same name (now transferred to Patheos), begun in February 2004, contains more than 1,500 papers, at least 500 debates or dialogues, and over 50 distinct \\\"index\\\" web pages. Unsolicited correspondence has indicated many hundreds of conversions (or returns) to the Catholic faith as a result, by God's grace, of these writings. Dave's conversion story was published in the bestselling book \\\"Surprised by Truth\\\" (edited by Patrick Madrid; San Diego: Basilica Press, 1994). Sophia Institute Press has published six of his books: \\\"A Biblical Defense of Catholicism\\\" (Foreword by Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J., 1996 \/ 2003), \\\"The Catholic Verses\\\" (2004), \\\"The One-Minute Apologist\\\" (2007), \\\"Bible Proofs for Catholic Truths\\\" (2009), \\\"The Quotable Newman\\\" (editor: 2012), and \\\"Proving the Catholic Faith is Biblical\\\" (2015). He is co-author (with Dr. Paul Thigpen) of the inserts for \\\"The New Catholic Answer Bible\\\" (Our Sunday Visitor: 2005), and editor for \\\"The Wisdom of Mr. Chesterton: The Very Best Quotes, Quips, and Cracks from the Pen of G. K. Chesterton\\\" (Saint Benedict Press \/ TAN Books: 2009). \\\"100 Biblical Arguments Against Sola Scriptura\\\" was published by Catholic Answers in May 2012. His \\\"Quotable Wesley\\\" compilation was published by (Protestant \/ Wesleyan publisher) Beacon Hill Press in April 2014. Several of his 49 books are bestsellers in their field. Dave maintains a popular personal Facebook page, a Facebook author page, and has a Twitter account as well. He offers almost all of his books in e-book form on his own Biblical Catholicism site (http:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/), at a permanent deep discount: only $2.99 for ePub, mobi, and AZW, and $1.99 for PDF. His writing has been enthusiastically endorsed or recommended by many leading Catholic apologists, authors, and priests, including Dr. Scott Hahn, Fr. Peter M. J. Stravinskas, Marcus Grodi, Patrick Madrid, Steve Ray, Tim Staples, Devin Rose, Mike Aquilina, Al Kresta, Karl Keating, Fr. Dwight Longenecker, Brandon Vogt, Marcellino D'Ambrosio, and Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave has been happily married to his wife Judy since October 1984. They have three sons and a daughter, and reside in southeast Michigan (metro Detroit).\",\"sameAs\":[\"https:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/\",\"https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/dave.armstrong.798\",\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/@LuxVeritatisApologetics\"],\"url\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/author\/davearmstrong\"}]}<\/script>\n<!-- \/ Yoast SEO plugin. -->","yoast_head_json":{"title":"Catholic Mass as \"Idolatry\" Reductio ad Absurdum Catholic Mass as \"Idolatry\" Reductio ad Absurdum","description":"Some Protestants want to claim that the Mass is idolatrous? 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Formerly a campus missionary, as a Protestant, Dave was received into the Catholic Church in February 1991, by the late, well-known catechist and theologian, Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave\u2019s articles have appeared in many influential Catholic periodicals, including \"This Rock\" (now called \"Catholic Answers Magazine\"), \"Envoy Magazine\" (Patrick Madrid), \"The Catholic Answer,\" \"The Coming Home Journal,\" \"Gilbert Magazine\" (American Chesterton Society), and \"The Latin Mass.\" He also writes a featured column for every issue of \"The Michigan Catholic\": published by the archdiocese of Detroit, and was editor for most of the apologetics tracts published by the St. Paul Street Evangelization apostolate. Dave\u2019s apologetics and writing apostolate was the subject of a feature article in the May 2002 issue of \"Envoy Magazine.\" He served as the staff moderator at the Internet discussion forum for The Coming Home Network, from 2007-2010. Dave has been interviewed on many nationally syndicated Catholic radio shows, including \"Catholic Answers Live\" (twice), \"Faith and Family Live\" (Steve Wood), \"Kresta in the Afternoon,\" \"Son Rise Morning Show,\" \"Catholic Connection\" (Teresa Tomeo), and \"The Catholics Next Door.\" His large and popular website, \"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism,\" was online from March 1997 to March 2007, and received the 1998 Catholic Website of the Year award from \"Envoy Magazine.\" His blog of the same name (now transferred to Patheos), begun in February 2004, contains more than 1,500 papers, at least 500 debates or dialogues, and over 50 distinct \"index\" web pages. Unsolicited correspondence has indicated many hundreds of conversions (or returns) to the Catholic faith as a result, by God's grace, of these writings. Dave's conversion story was published in the bestselling book \"Surprised by Truth\" (edited by Patrick Madrid; San Diego: Basilica Press, 1994). Sophia Institute Press has published six of his books: \"A Biblical Defense of Catholicism\" (Foreword by Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J., 1996 \/ 2003), \"The Catholic Verses\" (2004), \"The One-Minute Apologist\" (2007), \"Bible Proofs for Catholic Truths\" (2009), \"The Quotable Newman\" (editor: 2012), and \"Proving the Catholic Faith is Biblical\" (2015). He is co-author (with Dr. Paul Thigpen) of the inserts for \"The New Catholic Answer Bible\" (Our Sunday Visitor: 2005), and editor for \"The Wisdom of Mr. Chesterton: The Very Best Quotes, Quips, and Cracks from the Pen of G. K. Chesterton\" (Saint Benedict Press \/ TAN Books: 2009). \"100 Biblical Arguments Against Sola Scriptura\" was published by Catholic Answers in May 2012. His \"Quotable Wesley\" compilation was published by (Protestant \/ Wesleyan publisher) Beacon Hill Press in April 2014. Several of his 49 books are bestsellers in their field. Dave maintains a popular personal Facebook page, a Facebook author page, and has a Twitter account as well. He offers almost all of his books in e-book form on his own Biblical Catholicism site (http:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/), at a permanent deep discount: only $2.99 for ePub, mobi, and AZW, and $1.99 for PDF. His writing has been enthusiastically endorsed or recommended by many leading Catholic apologists, authors, and priests, including Dr. Scott Hahn, Fr. Peter M. J. Stravinskas, Marcus Grodi, Patrick Madrid, Steve Ray, Tim Staples, Devin Rose, Mike Aquilina, Al Kresta, Karl Keating, Fr. Dwight Longenecker, Brandon Vogt, Marcellino D'Ambrosio, and Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave has been happily married to his wife Judy since October 1984. They have three sons and a daughter, and reside in southeast Michigan (metro Detroit).","sameAs":["https:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/","https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/dave.armstrong.798","https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/@LuxVeritatisApologetics"],"url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/author\/davearmstrong"}]}},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/55760","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/2331"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=55760"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/55760\/revisions"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/55762"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=55760"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=55760"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=55760"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}