{"id":56009,"date":"2021-04-10T16:11:04","date_gmt":"2021-04-10T20:11:04","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/?p=56009"},"modified":"2021-04-10T16:11:04","modified_gmt":"2021-04-10T20:11:04","slug":"madison-malarkey-45-biblical-proverbial-language","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2021\/04\/madison-malarkey-45-biblical-proverbial-language.html","title":{"rendered":"Madison Malarkey #45: Biblical Proverbial Language"},"content":{"rendered":"\n<\/head>

Mark 16:17-18 and the Various Sign Miracles<\/strong><\/span><\/p>\n

\"\"<\/p>\n

Dr. David Madison<\/strong>\u00a0is an atheist who was a Methodist minister for nine years: with a Ph.D. in Biblical Studies from Boston University.\u00a0\u00a0I have replied<\/a>\u00a0to his videos or articles\u00a044 times<\/strong>\u00a0as of this writing.\u00a0Thus far, I haven\u2019t heard\u00a0one peep<\/em>\u00a0back from him\u00a0 (from 8-1-19 to 4-9-21). This certainly doesn\u2019t suggest to me that he is very\u00a0confident<\/em>\u00a0in his opinions. All I\u2019ve seen is\u00a0expressions of contempt from Dr. Madison<\/a>\u00a0and from his buddy, the atheist author, polemicist, and extraordinarily volatile\u00a0John Loftus<\/a>, who runs the ultra-insulting\u00a0Debunking Christianity<\/em><\/a>\u00a0blog. Dr. Madison made his cramped, insulated mentality clear in a\u00a0comment from 9-6-19<\/a>:<\/p>\n

\n
\n
[T]he burden of the apologist has become heavy indeed, and some don\u2019t handle the anguish well. They vent and rage at critics, like toddlers throwing tantrums when a threadbare security blanket gets tossed out. We can smell their panic. Engaging with the ranters serves no purpose\u2014any more than it does to engage with Flat-Earthers, Chemtrail conspiracy theorists, and those who argue that the moon landings were faked. . . . I prefer to engage with NON-obsessive-compulsive-hysterical Christians, those who have spotted rubbish in the Bible, and might already have one foot out the door.<\/span><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/blockquote>\n

Only preaching to the choir from Dr. Madison! One can\u2019t be too careful in avoiding any criticism or challenge. John\u00a0\u201cyou are an\u00a0idiot<\/em>!\u201d<\/a>\u00a0Loftus even went to the length of\u00a0changing his blog\u2019s rules of engagement<\/a>, so that he and Dr. Madison could avoid replying to yours truly, or even see\u00a0notices<\/em>\u00a0of my substantive replies (er, sorry,\u00a0rants<\/em>, rather). He wrote in part:<\/p>\n

Some angry Catholic apologist has been tagging our posts with his angry long-winded responses. . . . If any respectful person has a counter-argument or some counter-evidence then bring it. State your case in as few words as possible and then engage our commenters in a discussion. . . . I talked with David Madison who has been the target of these links and he\u2019s in agreement with this decision. He\u2019s planning to write something about one or more of these links in the near future.<\/span><\/p><\/blockquote>\n

Needless to say, I still<\/em> await these long-promised replies to any of my critiques from good ol\u2019 Dr. Madison.\u00a0His words will be in\u00a0blue<\/span>.<\/p>\n

Presently, I am replying to his article, \u201cRemarkable Resistance to Rational Inquiry\u201d<\/a> (2-19-21).<\/p>\n

*****<\/p>\n

Many of the faithful . . . sense that religion has claimed too much. They know that the famous promise of the risen Jesus in Mark 16 just isn\u2019t true, i.e., that baptized Christians\u2014using Jesus\u2019 name\u2014will be able to \u201c\u2026cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues;\u00a0they will pick up snakes in their hands, and if they drink any deadly thing, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover.\u201d (vv. 17-18)<\/span><\/p>\n

These verses quality as Bible silliness (not really excused because they\u2019re in the fake ending of Mark) and are disconfirmed by Christians in their daily lives. But there are still great expectations of God the Great Healer, with little more than faith to go on.<\/span><\/p>\n

The only silly and dumbfounded person here is Dr. Madison: who should know much better than to make such a clueless argument. As so often, this involves non-literal genre of the Bible: a not uncommon occurrence. For example, hyperbole (exaggeration) is often used by Jesus. But in this instance it\u2019s proverbial language: general statements that are often true, but which admit of many exceptions. In other words, this is not some hyper-literal statement that any<\/em> and\u00a0every<\/em> Christian will be able to do any<\/em> of these things anytime<\/em>, at will.<\/p>\n

No; rather, it\u2019s a proverbial statement that among Christians as a whole<\/em>, one will be able to observe all of these phenomena: demons being cast out (mostly the domain of the exorcist today), speaking in new tongues, not being hurt by poisonous snakes or poison in a drink, and healing the sick by touch.\u00a0 We can easily show in several ways that this saying was not meant literally; that is, wasn\u2019t intended to describe universal application.<\/p>\n

I\u2019ve already educated Dr. Madison three times (one<\/a> \/ two<\/a> \/ three<\/a>) with regard to the true biblical teaching on healing, which is not<\/em><\/strong> universal or on command. I dealt with the topic of healing in the Bible<\/a> early on in my apologetics apostolate (1982). But he never learns<\/em> anything because he refuses to engage any criticism, let alone to be corrected; so he repeats the same hogwash over and over (apparently thinking his argument improves by repeating lies). He even buys the same tripe that some of the silliest, most gullible, and scripturally ignorant Christians (that he despises) accept. How ironic<\/em>, huh? The \u201csmart\u201d atheist who believes the same ridiculous and unbiblical thing that fundamentalist ignoramuses do (i.e., that God supposedly heals all the time<\/em>, upon command, as if He were a genie in a bottle) . . .<\/p>\n

The way Jesus phrases it shows that He is talking generally about the collective of Christians: \u201cthese signs will accompany<\/em> those who believe: in my name they<\/em> will cast out demons; they will . . .\u201d (Mk 16:17, RSV).<\/p>\n

It\u2019s like saying, \u201cthese things will accompany those who play basketball in the NBA: slam dunks, 55% three-point-shooting, triple-doubles, 20 rebounds a game, scoring of 50 points a game, and averages of 10 or more assists per game.\u201d<\/p>\n

We can see examples of individual Christians doing these things in the Bible. Speaking in tongues<\/a> occurred on the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2:4-12) and on other occasions of new believers receiving the Holy Spirit (Acts 10:45-46; 19:6). St. Paul talks about\u00a0\u201cgifts of healing . . . the working of miracles . . . various kinds of tongues\u201d (1 Cor 12:9-10) but specifically states that not everyone has every gift<\/em>: \u201cAll these are inspired by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills\u201d (12:11).<\/p>\n

He nails down this point of diversity and not unanimity of every gift by comparing the spiritual gifts and the Church itself to different parts of the body (12:12-27). Then he reiterates the notion of different gifts for different Christians: \u201cAre all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles?\u00a0[30] Do all possess gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?\u201d (12:29-30).\u00a0This is a literal explanation of what Jesus expressed in a proverbial fashion.\u00a0St. Paul is described as not being hurt by a snake:<\/p>\n

Acts 28:3, 5-6\u00a0<\/strong>Paul had gathered a bundle of sticks and put them on the fire, when a viper came out because of the heat and fastened on his hand. . . .\u00a0[5] He, however, shook off the creature into the fire and suffered no harm.\u00a0[6] They waited, expecting him to swell up or suddenly fall down dead; but when they had waited a long time and saw no misfortune come to him, they changed their minds and said that he was a god.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

Acts 8:7 states: \u201cFor unclean spirits came out of many who were possessed . . .\u201d References to healing can be found in Acts 5:16 and 8:7.\u00a0 The first says \u201call\u201d were healed; the second says \u201cmany.\u201d So it\u2019s not true that all are supposed to be healed all the time. See my healing paper above for much more along those lines. Acts 28:8 refers specifically to Paul healing a man by laying his hands on him.<\/p>\n

***<\/p>\n

Photo credit:\u00a0<\/strong>St. Paul, shipwrecked on Malta, is attacked by a snake which he shakes off into a fire; it does not harm him and the onlookers take him for a god. Etching after J. Thornhill.\u00a0This file comes from<\/span>\u00a0Wellcome Images<\/a>, a website operated by Wellcome Trust, a global charitable foundation based in the United Kingdom. Refer to<\/span>\u00a0Wellcome blog post<\/a>\u00a0(archive<\/a>). [Wikimedia Commons<\/a> \/\u00a0Creative Commons<\/a>\u00a0Attribution 4.0 International<\/a>\u00a0license]<\/p>\n

***<\/p>\n

Summary<\/em>:\u00a0Atheist Dr. David Madison appears to take everything in the Bible literally: leading him to the same silly conclusions as uneducated fundamentalists. I explain biblical proverbial language, so he (and many atheists like him) can get up to speed.<\/p>\n

*<\/p>\n

Tags<\/em>:\u00a0alleged biblical contradictions,\u00a0anti-Christian bigotry,\u00a0anti-theism,\u00a0anti-theists, atheism,\u00a0atheist exegesis,\u00a0\u00a0atheist hermeneutics,\u00a0atheists,\u00a0Bible \u201ccontradictions\u201d,\u00a0\u00a0contradictions in the Bible,\u00a0critiques of Christianity,\u00a0David Madison,\u00a0Debunking Christianity,\u00a0Madison Malarkey,\u00a0biblical proverbial language<\/p>\n

***<\/p>\n<\/body><\/html>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

Mark 16:17-18 and the Various Sign Miracles Dr. David Madison\u00a0is an atheist who was a Methodist minister for nine years: with a Ph.D. in Biblical Studies from Boston University.\u00a0\u00a0I have replied\u00a0to his videos or articles\u00a044 times\u00a0as of this writing.\u00a0Thus far, I haven\u2019t heard\u00a0one peep\u00a0back from him\u00a0 (from 8-1-19 to 4-9-21). This certainly doesn\u2019t suggest to […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2331,"featured_media":56014,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[124],"tags":[2519,1738,1043,745,258,2639,9137,335,525,13442,6519,1367,9119,648,12757],"class_list":["post-56009","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-atheism-agnosticism","tag-alleged-biblical-contradictions","tag-anti-christian-bigotry","tag-anti-theism","tag-anti-theists","tag-atheism","tag-atheist-exegesis","tag-atheist-hermeneutics","tag-atheists","tag-bible-contradictions","tag-biblical-proverbial-language","tag-contradictions-in-the-bible","tag-critiques-of-christianity","tag-david-madison","tag-debunking-christianity","tag-madison-malarkey"],"yoast_head":"\nMadison Malarkey #45: Biblical Proverbial Language Madison Malarkey #45: Biblical Proverbial Language<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"Mark 16:17-18 and the Various Sign Miracles Dr. David Madison\u00a0is an atheist who was a Methodist minister for nine years: with a Ph.D. in Biblical Studies Atheist Dr. David Madison appears to take everything in the Bible literally: leading him to the same silly conclusions as uneducated fundamentalists. 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Formerly a campus missionary, as a Protestant, Dave was received into the Catholic Church in February 1991, by the late, well-known catechist and theologian, Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave\u2019s articles have appeared in many influential Catholic periodicals, including \\\"This Rock\\\" (now called \\\"Catholic Answers Magazine\\\"), \\\"Envoy Magazine\\\" (Patrick Madrid), \\\"The Catholic Answer,\\\" \\\"The Coming Home Journal,\\\" \\\"Gilbert Magazine\\\" (American Chesterton Society), and \\\"The Latin Mass.\\\" He also writes a featured column for every issue of \\\"The Michigan Catholic\\\": published by the archdiocese of Detroit, and was editor for most of the apologetics tracts published by the St. Paul Street Evangelization apostolate. Dave\u2019s apologetics and writing apostolate was the subject of a feature article in the May 2002 issue of \\\"Envoy Magazine.\\\" He served as the staff moderator at the Internet discussion forum for The Coming Home Network, from 2007-2010. Dave has been interviewed on many nationally syndicated Catholic radio shows, including \\\"Catholic Answers Live\\\" (twice), \\\"Faith and Family Live\\\" (Steve Wood), \\\"Kresta in the Afternoon,\\\" \\\"Son Rise Morning Show,\\\" \\\"Catholic Connection\\\" (Teresa Tomeo), and \\\"The Catholics Next Door.\\\" His large and popular website, \\\"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism,\\\" was online from March 1997 to March 2007, and received the 1998 Catholic Website of the Year award from \\\"Envoy Magazine.\\\" His blog of the same name (now transferred to Patheos), begun in February 2004, contains more than 1,500 papers, at least 500 debates or dialogues, and over 50 distinct \\\"index\\\" web pages. Unsolicited correspondence has indicated many hundreds of conversions (or returns) to the Catholic faith as a result, by God's grace, of these writings. Dave's conversion story was published in the bestselling book \\\"Surprised by Truth\\\" (edited by Patrick Madrid; San Diego: Basilica Press, 1994). Sophia Institute Press has published six of his books: \\\"A Biblical Defense of Catholicism\\\" (Foreword by Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J., 1996 \/ 2003), \\\"The Catholic Verses\\\" (2004), \\\"The One-Minute Apologist\\\" (2007), \\\"Bible Proofs for Catholic Truths\\\" (2009), \\\"The Quotable Newman\\\" (editor: 2012), and \\\"Proving the Catholic Faith is Biblical\\\" (2015). He is co-author (with Dr. Paul Thigpen) of the inserts for \\\"The New Catholic Answer Bible\\\" (Our Sunday Visitor: 2005), and editor for \\\"The Wisdom of Mr. Chesterton: The Very Best Quotes, Quips, and Cracks from the Pen of G. K. Chesterton\\\" (Saint Benedict Press \/ TAN Books: 2009). \\\"100 Biblical Arguments Against Sola Scriptura\\\" was published by Catholic Answers in May 2012. His \\\"Quotable Wesley\\\" compilation was published by (Protestant \/ Wesleyan publisher) Beacon Hill Press in April 2014. Several of his 49 books are bestsellers in their field. Dave maintains a popular personal Facebook page, a Facebook author page, and has a Twitter account as well. He offers almost all of his books in e-book form on his own Biblical Catholicism site (http:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/), at a permanent deep discount: only $2.99 for ePub, mobi, and AZW, and $1.99 for PDF. His writing has been enthusiastically endorsed or recommended by many leading Catholic apologists, authors, and priests, including Dr. Scott Hahn, Fr. Peter M. J. Stravinskas, Marcus Grodi, Patrick Madrid, Steve Ray, Tim Staples, Devin Rose, Mike Aquilina, Al Kresta, Karl Keating, Fr. Dwight Longenecker, Brandon Vogt, Marcellino D'Ambrosio, and Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave has been happily married to his wife Judy since October 1984. They have three sons and a daughter, and reside in southeast Michigan (metro Detroit).\",\"sameAs\":[\"https:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/\",\"https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/dave.armstrong.798\",\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/@LuxVeritatisApologetics\"],\"url\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/author\/davearmstrong\"}]}<\/script>\n<!-- \/ Yoast SEO plugin. -->","yoast_head_json":{"title":"Madison Malarkey #45: Biblical Proverbial Language Madison Malarkey #45: Biblical Proverbial Language","description":"Mark 16:17-18 and the Various Sign Miracles Dr. David Madison\u00a0is an atheist who was a Methodist minister for nine years: with a Ph.D. in Biblical Studies Atheist Dr. David Madison appears to take everything in the Bible literally: leading him to the same silly conclusions as uneducated fundamentalists. 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I explain biblical proverbial language.","breadcrumb":{"@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2021\/04\/madison-malarkey-45-biblical-proverbial-language.html#breadcrumb"},"inLanguage":"en-US","potentialAction":[{"@type":"ReadAction","target":["https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2021\/04\/madison-malarkey-45-biblical-proverbial-language.html"]}]},{"@type":"BreadcrumbList","@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2021\/04\/madison-malarkey-45-biblical-proverbial-language.html#breadcrumb","itemListElement":[{"@type":"ListItem","position":1,"name":"Home","item":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong"},{"@type":"ListItem","position":2,"name":"Madison Malarkey #45: Biblical Proverbial Language"}]},{"@type":"WebSite","@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/#website","url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/","name":"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism","description":"Catholic biblical apologetics","potentialAction":[{"@type":"SearchAction","target":{"@type":"EntryPoint","urlTemplate":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/?s={search_term_string}"},"query-input":"required name=search_term_string"}],"inLanguage":"en-US"},{"@type":"Person","@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/#\/schema\/person\/471eaa20e441eca4bb1ea50393cf632e","name":"Dave Armstrong","image":{"@type":"ImageObject","inLanguage":"en-US","@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/#\/schema\/person\/image\/","url":"https:\/\/secure.gravatar.com\/avatar\/820e6db89734ae7a9e5dac8d498f5ac7?s=96&d=mm&r=g","contentUrl":"https:\/\/secure.gravatar.com\/avatar\/820e6db89734ae7a9e5dac8d498f5ac7?s=96&d=mm&r=g","caption":"Dave Armstrong"},"description":"Dave Armstrong is a Catholic author and apologist, who has been actively proclaiming and defending Christianity since 1981, and Catholicism in particular since 1991 (full-time since December 2001). Formerly a campus missionary, as a Protestant, Dave was received into the Catholic Church in February 1991, by the late, well-known catechist and theologian, Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave\u2019s articles have appeared in many influential Catholic periodicals, including \"This Rock\" (now called \"Catholic Answers Magazine\"), \"Envoy Magazine\" (Patrick Madrid), \"The Catholic Answer,\" \"The Coming Home Journal,\" \"Gilbert Magazine\" (American Chesterton Society), and \"The Latin Mass.\" He also writes a featured column for every issue of \"The Michigan Catholic\": published by the archdiocese of Detroit, and was editor for most of the apologetics tracts published by the St. Paul Street Evangelization apostolate. Dave\u2019s apologetics and writing apostolate was the subject of a feature article in the May 2002 issue of \"Envoy Magazine.\" He served as the staff moderator at the Internet discussion forum for The Coming Home Network, from 2007-2010. Dave has been interviewed on many nationally syndicated Catholic radio shows, including \"Catholic Answers Live\" (twice), \"Faith and Family Live\" (Steve Wood), \"Kresta in the Afternoon,\" \"Son Rise Morning Show,\" \"Catholic Connection\" (Teresa Tomeo), and \"The Catholics Next Door.\" His large and popular website, \"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism,\" was online from March 1997 to March 2007, and received the 1998 Catholic Website of the Year award from \"Envoy Magazine.\" His blog of the same name (now transferred to Patheos), begun in February 2004, contains more than 1,500 papers, at least 500 debates or dialogues, and over 50 distinct \"index\" web pages. Unsolicited correspondence has indicated many hundreds of conversions (or returns) to the Catholic faith as a result, by God's grace, of these writings. Dave's conversion story was published in the bestselling book \"Surprised by Truth\" (edited by Patrick Madrid; San Diego: Basilica Press, 1994). Sophia Institute Press has published six of his books: \"A Biblical Defense of Catholicism\" (Foreword by Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J., 1996 \/ 2003), \"The Catholic Verses\" (2004), \"The One-Minute Apologist\" (2007), \"Bible Proofs for Catholic Truths\" (2009), \"The Quotable Newman\" (editor: 2012), and \"Proving the Catholic Faith is Biblical\" (2015). He is co-author (with Dr. Paul Thigpen) of the inserts for \"The New Catholic Answer Bible\" (Our Sunday Visitor: 2005), and editor for \"The Wisdom of Mr. Chesterton: The Very Best Quotes, Quips, and Cracks from the Pen of G. K. Chesterton\" (Saint Benedict Press \/ TAN Books: 2009). \"100 Biblical Arguments Against Sola Scriptura\" was published by Catholic Answers in May 2012. His \"Quotable Wesley\" compilation was published by (Protestant \/ Wesleyan publisher) Beacon Hill Press in April 2014. Several of his 49 books are bestsellers in their field. Dave maintains a popular personal Facebook page, a Facebook author page, and has a Twitter account as well. He offers almost all of his books in e-book form on his own Biblical Catholicism site (http:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/), at a permanent deep discount: only $2.99 for ePub, mobi, and AZW, and $1.99 for PDF. His writing has been enthusiastically endorsed or recommended by many leading Catholic apologists, authors, and priests, including Dr. Scott Hahn, Fr. Peter M. J. Stravinskas, Marcus Grodi, Patrick Madrid, Steve Ray, Tim Staples, Devin Rose, Mike Aquilina, Al Kresta, Karl Keating, Fr. Dwight Longenecker, Brandon Vogt, Marcellino D'Ambrosio, and Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave has been happily married to his wife Judy since October 1984. They have three sons and a daughter, and reside in southeast Michigan (metro Detroit).","sameAs":["https:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/","https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/dave.armstrong.798","https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/@LuxVeritatisApologetics"],"url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/author\/davearmstrong"}]}},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/56009","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/2331"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=56009"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/56009\/revisions"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/56014"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=56009"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=56009"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=56009"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}