{"id":59146,"date":"2021-08-21T12:02:41","date_gmt":"2021-08-21T16:02:41","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/?p=59146"},"modified":"2021-08-21T12:02:41","modified_gmt":"2021-08-21T16:02:41","slug":"covid-vaccines-conscience-the-pope-a-catholic-dialogue","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2021\/08\/covid-vaccines-conscience-the-pope-a-catholic-dialogue.html","title":{"rendered":"COVID Vaccines, Conscience, &#038; the Pope: a Catholic Dialogue"},"content":{"rendered":"<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC \"-\/\/W3C\/\/DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional\/\/EN\" \"http:\/\/www.w3.org\/TR\/REC-html40\/loose.dtd\">\n<html><head><meta http-equiv=\"content-type\" content=\"text\/html; charset=utf-8\"><meta http-equiv=\"content-type\" content=\"text\/html; charset=utf-8\"><\/head><body><p style=\"text-align: center;\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignnone size-full wp-image-59147\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-media.patheos.com\/blogs\/sites\/572\/2021\/08\/Coronavirus3.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"640\" height=\"427\"><\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: center;\"><span class=\"nc684nl6\"><a class=\"oajrlxb2 g5ia77u1 qu0x051f esr5mh6w e9989ue4 r7d6kgcz rq0escxv nhd2j8a9 nc684nl6 p7hjln8o kvgmc6g5 cxmmr5t8 oygrvhab hcukyx3x jb3vyjys rz4wbd8a qt6c0cv9 a8nywdso i1ao9s8h esuyzwwr f1sip0of lzcic4wl gmql0nx0 gpro0wi8 decorated-link\" tabindex=\"0\" role=\"link\" href=\"https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/charlie.frommstarkville?comment_id=Y29tbWVudDo0NjY2MjM4MTEzNDExMTM3XzQ2NzI0Mzg4NzYxMjQzOTQ%3D&amp;__cft__%5B0%5D=AZViQQwv9238Bhy40Z46HUJRMXAZlibrJxKlbzS0zTqnnN48xVkDdhS0mZfmLWevT054juHIJu1w0LpPOkWZX7npzw5W7YfnEE0vki13KjFR9CfI1736CBsaWmMLdOIVYYs&amp;__tn__=R%5D-R\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\"><span class=\"pq6dq46d\"><span class=\"d2edcug0 hpfvmrgz qv66sw1b c1et5uql lr9zc1uh a8c37x1j keod5gw0 nxhoafnm aigsh9s9 d9wwppkn fe6kdd0r mau55g9w c8b282yb mdeji52x e9vueds3 j5wam9gi lrazzd5p oo9gr5id\" dir=\"auto\">Charlie Fromm-Starkville<\/span><\/span><\/a><span class=\"pq6dq46d\"><span class=\"d2edcug0 hpfvmrgz qv66sw1b c1et5uql lr9zc1uh a8c37x1j keod5gw0 nxhoafnm aigsh9s9 d9wwppkn fe6kdd0r mau55g9w c8b282yb mdeji52x e9vueds3 j5wam9gi lrazzd5p oo9gr5id\" dir=\"auto\">, a Facebook friend of mine, describes himself as a \u201ctraditional Catholic\u201d. This back-and-forth exchange took place <a href=\"https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/dave.armstrong.798\/posts\/4666238113411137?__cft__%5B0%5D=AZViQQwv9238Bhy40Z46HUJRMXAZlibrJxKlbzS0zTqnnN48xVkDdhS0mZfmLWevT054juHIJu1w0LpPOkWZX7npzw5W7YfnEE0vki13KjFR9CfI1736CBsaWmMLdOIVYYs&amp;__tn__=%2CO%2CP-R\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\">on my Facebook page<\/a>: edited (some sub-threads not included) for the sake of relative brevity and flow of content. His words will be in <span style=\"color: #0000ff;\">blue<\/span>.<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: center;\">*****<\/p>\n<p>Pope Francis has endorsed (as he must, because it is solidly established Catholic teaching) the right to conscientious objection:<\/p>\n<div class=\"o9v6fnle cxmmr5t8 oygrvhab hcukyx3x c1et5uql\">\n<blockquote>\n<div dir=\"auto\">I can\u2019t have in mind all cases that can exist about conscience objection. But, yes, I can say the conscientious objection is a right that is a part of every human right. It is a right. And if a person does not allow others to be a conscientious objector, he denies a right.<\/div>\n<\/blockquote>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"o9v6fnle cxmmr5t8 oygrvhab hcukyx3x c1et5uql\">\n<blockquote>\n<div dir=\"auto\">Conscientious objection must enter into every juridical structure because it is a right, a human right. Otherwise we would end up in a situation where we select what is a right, saying \u2018this right that has merit, this one does not.\u2019 It is a human right. It is a human right and if a government official is a human person, he has that right. It is a human right. (<a href=\"https:\/\/www.washingtonpost.com\/news\/acts-of-faith\/wp\/2015\/09\/28\/pope-francis-conscientious-objection-is-a-human-right-even-for-government-workers\/\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\">September 2015<\/a>)<\/div>\n<\/blockquote>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"o9v6fnle cxmmr5t8 oygrvhab hcukyx3x c1et5uql\">\n<blockquote>\n<div dir=\"auto\">We see every day that the powerful countries create laws that force us to go through this path \u2026 a nation that doesn\u2019t follow these modern laws, these cultures, or that at least doesn\u2019t want to have them in its laws, is accused, is politely persecuted. It\u2019s a persecution that robs man of his freedom, even from conscientious objection! Conscientious objection is a right, and part of the body of all human rights. If we want to make peace, we must respect all rights. (<a href=\"https:\/\/cruxnow.com\/church\/2016\/04\/pope-backs-conscientious-objection-rights-for-christians\/\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\">April 2016)<\/a><\/div>\n<\/blockquote>\n<\/div>\n<p>Moreover, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith produced on 12-21-20:\u00a0<em><a href=\"https:\/\/www.vatican.va\/roman_curia\/congregations\/cfaith\/documents\/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20201221_nota-vaccini-anticovid_en.html\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\">Note on the morality of using some anti-Covid-19 vaccines<\/a>.\u00a0<\/em>At the end it states:<\/p>\n<blockquote><p>The Sovereign Pontiff Francis, at the Audience granted to the undersigned Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, on 17 December 2020, examined the present Note and ordered its publication.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p>This papal approval included the following, from section 5:<\/p>\n<blockquote><p>5. At the same time, practical reason makes evident that vaccination is not, as a rule, a moral obligation and that, therefore, it must be voluntary. In any case, from the ethical point of view,\u00a0<em>the morality of vaccination depends not only on the duty to protect one\u2019s own health, but also on the duty to pursue the common good<\/em>. In the absence of other means to stop or even prevent the epidemic, the common good may recommend vaccination, especially to protect the weakest and most exposed.<strong>\u00a0Those who, however, for reasons of conscience, refuse vaccines produced with cell lines from aborted fetuses<\/strong>, must do their utmost to avoid, by other prophylactic means and appropriate behavior, becoming vehicles for the transmission of the infectious agent. In particular, they must avoid any risk to the health of those who cannot be vaccinated for medical or other reasons, and who are the most vulnerable. [my bolding; italics in original]<\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p>See also:<\/p>\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/www.catholicculture.org\/commentary\/on-vaccination-ny-archdiocese-tramples-rights-faithful-10932\/\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\">\u201cOn vaccination, NY archdiocese tramples the rights of the faithful\u201d<\/a>\u00a0(Phil Lawler,\u00a0<em>Catholic Culture<\/em>, 8-5-21)<\/p>\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/www.ncronline.org\/news\/coronavirus\/two-catholic-groups-no-vaccine-mandate-without-conscience-protections\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\">\u201cTwo Catholic groups: No vaccine mandate without conscience protections\u201d<\/a>\u00a0(Mark Pattison,\u00a0<em>Catholic News Service<\/em>, 8-2-21)<\/p>\n<p>To my knowledge, when Pope Francis has encouraged people to receive a COVID vaccine [see <a href=\"https:\/\/www.npr.org\/sections\/coronavirus-live-updates\/2021\/08\/18\/1028740057\/in-a-message-to-americans-pope-francis-says-getting-vaccinated-is-an-act-of-love\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\">one example<\/a>], it was a <em>general recommendation<\/em>: <em><strong>not<\/strong><\/em> a <strong><em>mandate<\/em><\/strong> that <strong><em>all<\/em><\/strong> Catholics <em><strong>must<\/strong><\/em> receive it, as a matter of absolute moral obligation, in conjunction with the commands to love our neighbors, etc.<\/p>\n<p>The Church is also crystal-clear as to the individual right of conscientious objection. See, for example, the Catechism:<\/p>\n<div class=\"o9v6fnle cxmmr5t8 oygrvhab hcukyx3x c1et5uql\">\n<blockquote>\n<div dir=\"auto\"><strong>1776<\/strong>\u00a0\u201cDeep within his conscience man discovers a law which he has not laid upon himself but which he must obey. Its voice, ever calling him to love and to do what is good and to avoid evil, sounds in his heart at the right moment. . . . For man has in his heart a law inscribed by God. . . . His conscience is man\u2019s most secret core and his sanctuary. There he is alone with God whose voice echoes in his depths.\u201d [Footnote:\u00a0<em>Gaudium Spes<\/em>\u00a016.]<\/div>\n<div dir=\"auto\">*<\/div>\n<div dir=\"auto\"><strong>1778<\/strong> Conscience is a judgment of reason whereby the human person recognizes the moral quality of a concrete act that he is going to perform, is in the process of performing, or has already completed. In all he says and does, man is obliged to follow faithfully what he knows to be just and right. It is by the judgment of his conscience that man perceives and recognizes the prescriptions of the divine law:<\/div>\n<div dir=\"auto\">*<\/div>\n<div dir=\"auto\">\u201cConscience is a law of the mind; yet [Christians] would not grant that it is nothing more; I mean that it was not a dictate, nor conveyed the notion of responsibility, of duty, of a threat and a promise. . . . [Conscience] is a messenger of him, who, both in nature and in grace, speaks to us behind a veil, and teaches and rules us by his representatives. Conscience is the aboriginal Vicar of Christ.\u201d<\/div>\n<div dir=\"auto\">*<\/div>\n<div dir=\"auto\">[Footnote for citation: John Henry Cardinal Newman, <a href=\"https:\/\/www.newmanreader.org\/works\/anglicans\/volume2\/gladstone\/index.html\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\">\u201cLetter to the Duke of Norfolk,\u201d<\/a> V, in <em>Certain Difficulties felt by Anglicans in Catholic Teaching II<\/em> (London: Longmans Green, 1885), 248.]<\/div>\n<div dir=\"auto\">*<\/div>\n<div dir=\"auto\"><strong>1782<\/strong> Man has the right to act in conscience and in freedom so as personally to make moral decisions. \u201cHe must not be forced to act contrary to his conscience. Nor must he be prevented from acting according to his conscience, especially in religious matters.\u201d [Footnote: DH 3 \u00a7 2.]<\/div>\n<div dir=\"auto\">*<\/div>\n<div dir=\"auto\"><strong>1790<\/strong> A human being must always obey the certain judgment of his conscience. If he were deliberately to act against it, he would condemn himself. . . .<\/div>\n<div dir=\"auto\">*<\/div>\n<div dir=\"auto\"><strong>1800<\/strong>\u00a0A human being must always obey the certain judgment of his conscience.<\/div>\n<\/blockquote>\n<\/div>\n<p><span style=\"color: #0000ff;\">I am a traditional Catholic. I am also a realist. It brings me no joy to say this, but the reality is that Darwinism is taking care of those who object to vaccination or treat mask mandates like a conspiracy theory.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"color: #0000ff;\">Peter has spoken through his successor Francis. And it appears from news reports that he is speaking directly to Catholics in America.<\/span> [provided <a href=\"https:\/\/www.npr.org\/sections\/coronavirus-live-updates\/2021\/08\/18\/1028740057\/in-a-message-to-americans-pope-francis-says-getting-vaccinated-is-an-act-of-love\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\">a link<\/a>]<\/p>\n<p><em><strong>I will not receive parts of murdered babies used for vaccine research and development into my body; period.<\/strong><\/em><\/p>\n<div class=\"kvgmc6g5 cxmmr5t8 oygrvhab hcukyx3x c1et5uql\">\n<div dir=\"auto\">To me this is the moral equivalent of Nazi research on Jewish concentration camp victims. The Church has condemned it (while allowing Catholics to receive vaccines due to remoteness of participation in the evil). <em>This is a matter of <strong>conscience<\/strong>. It applies only to <strong>me<\/strong><\/em>. I\u2019m not here telling you or anyone else what they should do. Go do your thing and leave those of us who have a different view alone.<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div dir=\"auto\">*<\/div>\n<div dir=\"auto\">\n<div class=\"o9v6fnle cxmmr5t8 oygrvhab hcukyx3x c1et5uql\">\n<div dir=\"auto\"><span style=\"color: #0000ff;\">Exactly!<\/span><\/div>\n<div dir=\"auto\">*<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"o9v6fnle cxmmr5t8 oygrvhab hcukyx3x c1et5uql\">\n<div dir=\"auto\"><span style=\"color: #0000ff;\">As a Catholic apologist it would be completely and professionally irresponsible for you to tell others not to receive the vaccine when Pope Francis himself, the successor of St Peter, just cut a public service announcement aimed primarily at Americans telling us to undergo vaccination as an act of love towards our neighbor.<\/span><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"o9v6fnle cxmmr5t8 oygrvhab hcukyx3x c1et5uql\">\n<div dir=\"auto\">*<\/div>\n<div dir=\"auto\"><span style=\"color: #0000ff;\">I know many other Catholic apologists have exposed themselves as dissenters during Pope Francis\u2019 pontificate. But you have for the most part remained faithful. So I could not imagine you taking a position contrary to the Holy Father\u2019s.<\/span><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"o9v6fnle cxmmr5t8 oygrvhab hcukyx3x c1et5uql\">\n<div dir=\"auto\">*<\/div>\n<div dir=\"auto\"><span style=\"color: #0000ff;\">With that in mind, though, please keep in mind that there are a number of conservative and traditionalist Catholic apologists and writers who advocate that the Church ought to take a more aggressive approach to vaccination. It\u2019s not just the Patheos crowd taking this position. Personally, I can appreciate Pope Francis\u2019 approach: which is to use both tradition (Angelus message) and modern social media (YouTube) to appeal directly to the average Catholic in those parts of the world where clergy and lay apologists and theologians have proven most resistant to vaccination. If you have not seen the Holy Father\u2019s video, it is well worth watching.\u00a0<\/span><\/div>\n<div dir=\"auto\">*<\/div>\n<div dir=\"auto\"><span style=\"color: #0000ff;\">Here is the Holy Father\u2019s public service announcement promoting COVID vaccination.<\/span> <span style=\"color: #0000ff;\"><span style=\"color: #000000;\">[<a href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/watch?v=IamLikEn-mM\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\">link<\/a>] <\/span>I much prefer the Pope Francis\u2019s fatherly and loving appeal to vaccinate out of love of neighbour (Christ\u2019s second commandment), to advocacy for mass excommunication.<\/span><\/div>\n<div dir=\"auto\">*<\/div>\n<div dir=\"auto\">\n<div class=\"kvgmc6g5 cxmmr5t8 oygrvhab hcukyx3x c1et5uql\">\n<div dir=\"auto\">I\u2019m not an ultramontanist, and this statement from the pope is not an infallible one. It\u2019s not binding for all Catholics. He has to abide by the Catholic Church\u2019s recognition of the right to conscientious objection, just like everyone else.<\/div>\n<div dir=\"auto\">*<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"o9v6fnle cxmmr5t8 oygrvhab hcukyx3x c1et5uql\">\n<div dir=\"auto\">And in fact he <em>does<\/em> recognize it, as I documented above. He <em>must<\/em> do so, because it is solidly established Catholic teaching) the right to conscientious objection. I have not argued that folks shouldn\u2019t get vaccinated. I have said that it is overall a good thing.<\/div>\n<div dir=\"auto\">*<\/div>\n<div dir=\"auto\"><span style=\"color: #0000ff;\">I do think Pope Francis is taking the right approach as pastor of the universal Church by cutting targeted public service announcements instead of using the hammer of censures and canonical penalties, as some have called for.<\/span><\/div>\n<div dir=\"auto\">*<\/div>\n<div dir=\"auto\">Do you agree that any and every Catholic who has conscientious objections to the use of aborted babies, is not morally obliged to ignore their conscience and receive a COVID vaccine?<\/div>\n<div dir=\"auto\">*<\/div>\n<div dir=\"auto\">\n<div class=\"kvgmc6g5 cxmmr5t8 oygrvhab hcukyx3x c1et5uql\">\n<div dir=\"auto\"><span style=\"color: #0000ff;\">I believe that. I also believe they have an obligation to examine and try and understand why Pope Francis, various Eastern Catholic Patriarchs, Cardinals, bishops, and learned theologians are promoting vaccination against COVID, especially if the anti-vax Catholics are clergy, religious, theologians, catechists, teachers, apologists, or public figures.<\/span><\/div>\n<div dir=\"auto\">*<\/div>\n<div dir=\"auto\">\n<div class=\"kvgmc6g5 cxmmr5t8 oygrvhab hcukyx3x c1et5uql\">\n<div dir=\"auto\">Obviously they are promoting it because it lowers the incidence of COVID. That still doesn\u2019t touch my objection based on conscience (though that\u2019s not my only one: just the primary and most unassailable one). It doesn\u2019t follow logically that if Pope Francis says \u201cgo get vaccinated. It\u2019s an act of love\u201d etc., that he is therefore denying conscientious objection. Elsewhere he has made it clear that there <em><strong>is<\/strong><\/em> such a thing as conscientious objection.<\/div>\n<div dir=\"auto\">*<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"o9v6fnle cxmmr5t8 oygrvhab hcukyx3x c1et5uql\">\n<div dir=\"auto\">I\u2019m \u201canti-vax\u201d for <strong><em>me<\/em><\/strong>, not \u201canti-vax.\u201d It\u2019s a big and important distinction. No one has any basis to attack my position, which is firmly entrenched in Catholic moral teaching. Conscientious objection was a fundamental notion of things like the civil rights movement, protests against Vietnam, and Operation Rescue\u2019s blocking of abortion death center doors (of which I was a part).<\/div>\n<div dir=\"auto\">*<\/div>\n<div dir=\"auto\">\n<div class=\"kvgmc6g5 cxmmr5t8 oygrvhab hcukyx3x c1et5uql\">\n<div dir=\"auto\"><span style=\"color: #0000ff;\">I start from the position that as both a scientist and a theologian Pope Francis is much more competent in these areas than I am. I admit up front that I am no expert, and so I cannot judge, but I personally believe that Pope Francis is more competent in science and moral theology than the vast majority of his critics within the Church. So my assumption is that he has considered all objections to the vaccine prior to putting out his YouTube PSA targeted to Catholics in the Americas. This includes both objections claiming moral theology and objections claiming science as their basis.<\/span><\/div>\n<div dir=\"auto\">*<\/div>\n<div dir=\"auto\"><span style=\"color: #0000ff;\">To be fair, as a traditional Catholic and a pro-lifer I also shared your initial conscientious objections. Once Pope Francis, Pope Benedict, various patriarchs, cardinals, bishops (including our local bishop who says the TLM) . . . came out in favour of vaccination, I realized there is no moral objection I could formulate that these successors to St Peter and the Apostles had not already considered.<\/span><\/div>\n<div dir=\"auto\">*<\/div>\n<div dir=\"auto\">\n<div class=\"kvgmc6g5 cxmmr5t8 oygrvhab hcukyx3x c1et5uql\">\n<div dir=\"auto\">It does <strong><em>not<\/em> <\/strong>include those who object in good conscience, because it <strong><em>cannot<\/em><\/strong>. Catholic teaching on that is firm and clear. See, for example, the Catechism. Nor is he a science expert, as he himself admits, and this is not part of his jurisdiction. He can only give opinions. We must <em>respect<\/em> them, but we\u2019re not <strong><em>bound<\/em> <\/strong>to them. So, for example, in his encyclical<em> Laudato si<\/em>, he wrote:<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"o9v6fnle cxmmr5t8 oygrvhab hcukyx3x c1et5uql\">\n<blockquote>\n<div dir=\"auto\">There are certain environmental issues where it is not easy to achieve a broad consensus. Here I would state once more that the Church does not presume to settle scientific questions or to replace politics. But I am concerned to encourage an honest and open debate so that particular interests or ideologies will not prejudice the common good. [188]<\/div>\n<\/blockquote>\n<div dir=\"auto\">I certainly did respectfully disagree with him regarding global warming and nuclear energy. Otherwise, <a href=\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2015\/09\/pope-francis-encyclical-laudato-si-a-beautiful-and-profoundly-wise-statement-of-christian-environmentalism-and-theology-of-creation.html\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\">I enthusiastically praised the wonderful document<\/a>.<\/div>\n<div dir=\"auto\">*<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"o9v6fnle cxmmr5t8 oygrvhab hcukyx3x c1et5uql\">\n<div dir=\"auto\">Vaccines are a matter of science and medicine, and the pope is assuredly not infallible in those areas. Nor is the Holy Father a <span style=\"color: #0000ff;\">\u201cscientist\u201d<\/span>. His <a href=\"https:\/\/en.wikipedia.org\/wiki\/Pope_Francis\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\">Wikipedia page<\/a> states:<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"o9v6fnle cxmmr5t8 oygrvhab hcukyx3x c1et5uql\">\n<blockquote>\n<div dir=\"auto\">He attended the technical secondary school Escuela T\u00e9cnica Industrial N\u00b0 27 Hip\u00f3lito Yrigoyen, . . . and graduated with a chemical technician\u2019s diploma (not a master\u2019s degree in chemistry, as some media outlets incorrectly reported). In that capacity, he spent several years working in the food section of Hickethier-Bachmann Laboratory, . . .<\/div>\n<div dir=\"auto\">*<\/div>\n<div dir=\"auto\">As a Jesuit novice he studied humanities in Santiago, Chile. . . .<\/div>\n<div dir=\"auto\">*<\/div>\n<div dir=\"auto\">In 1960, Bergoglio obtained a licentiate in philosophy from the Colegio M\u00e1ximo de San Jos\u00e9 in San Miguel, Buenos Aires Province. He taught literature and psychology at the Colegio de la Inmaculada Concepci\u00f3n, a high school in Santa Fe, from 1964 to 1965. In 1966, he taught the same courses at the Colegio del Salvador in Buenos Aires.<\/div>\n<\/blockquote>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"o9v6fnle cxmmr5t8 oygrvhab hcukyx3x c1et5uql\">\n<div dir=\"auto\">*<\/div>\n<div dir=\"auto\">A \u201cscientist\u201d is generally considered a person with a doctorate degree in science. The school he got the \u201cchemical technician\u2019s diploma\u201d from is a <a href=\"https:\/\/foursquare.com\/v\/escuela-t%C3%A9cnica-n%C2%BA-27-de-18-hip%C3%B3lito-yrigoyen\/4cdbae6b4006a14363fbd9b2\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\">high school and community college<\/a>. In any event, that is not a \u201cscientist\u2019s\u201d credentials. So kindly refrain from acting as if he speaks with that expertise. He\u2019s a very intelligent, educated man, of course, but no scientist.<\/div>\n<div dir=\"auto\">*<\/div>\n<div dir=\"auto\">\n<div class=\"kvgmc6g5 cxmmr5t8 oygrvhab hcukyx3x c1et5uql\">\n<div dir=\"auto\"><span style=\"color: #0000ff;\">Pope Francis has a lot more knowledge, experience, and credentials in science than I do. He also has a lot more theological credentials. And of course he is the successor of St Peter and Christ\u2019s Vicar on Earth. So even though I initially had some conscientious objections to receiving the vaccine, which is why I can sympathize with where you are coming from, I have opted to respectfully agree with the Holy Father on vaccination, as is my right as a traditional Catholic.<\/span><\/div>\n<div dir=\"auto\">*<\/div>\n<div dir=\"auto\">We can and should all agree that it is good for many to take the vaccine. He has <strong><em>not<\/em><\/strong>, on the other hand, indicated that there has been a reversal of Church teaching on conscience. I disagree where I have a perfect right to, in non-magisterial areas where the pope cannot bind me to obedience, and it is not disobedience. Reactionaries disagree where they are wrong, and even have views contrary to <em>de fide<\/em> dogmas: such as the indefectibility of the Church and the pope.<\/div>\n<div dir=\"auto\">*<\/div>\n<div dir=\"auto\">\n<div class=\"kvgmc6g5 cxmmr5t8 oygrvhab hcukyx3x c1et5uql\">\n<div dir=\"auto\"><span style=\"color: #0000ff;\">I\u2019m not sure how much obedience a successor of St Peter, especially one with a science education, is due in this area. <\/span><\/div>\n<div dir=\"auto\">*<\/div>\n<div dir=\"auto\">\n<div class=\"o9v6fnle cxmmr5t8 oygrvhab hcukyx3x c1et5uql\">\n<div dir=\"auto\">I am, as an apologist. You can either take my word on that or go on arguing, in perfect futility, with no basis. He can\u2019t possibly disagree about conscientious objection because he okayed the Vatican document above, last December, which included that very thing. What is he: two-faced? Many of his critics think so. <em>You<\/em> shouldn\u2019t . . .<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div dir=\"auto\">*<\/div>\n<div dir=\"auto\">\n<div class=\"o9v6fnle cxmmr5t8 oygrvhab hcukyx3x c1et5uql\">\n<div dir=\"auto\"><span style=\"color: #0000ff;\">I can also ask my pastor or my bishop, or one of the moral theologians at our local Catholic college. Though the issue is somewhat moot since you acknowledge my right as a Catholic to agree with the Holy Father. I was criticizing clergy and Catholic apologists who deny Catholics have a right to agree with the Holy Father on this issue.<\/span><br>\n*<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div dir=\"auto\"><span style=\"color: #0000ff;\">I don\u2019t judge those like yourself who disagree with the Holy Father on the basis of conscientious objection. I will, however, assert my right as a traditional Catholic to agree with the Holy Father on this topic, where prior to his intervention (and that of several patriarchs, cardinals, and bishops) I had disagreed based upon conscientious objection. If Catholics have a right to disagree with the Supreme Pontiff on this matter, they also have a right to agree with him.<\/span><\/div>\n<div dir=\"auto\">*<\/div>\n<div dir=\"auto\">Of course you can agree. You have to know, however, <em>exactly what it <strong>is<\/strong><\/em> you are agreeing with.<\/div>\n<div dir=\"auto\">*<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div dir=\"auto\"><span style=\"color: #0000ff;\">By the way, my non-judgment is based upon a Catholic being honest in one\u2019s actions flowing from one\u2019s objections. We have a few Catholic apologists locally who have actually lied about being vaccinated and\/or exempt from mask mandates because they object to vaccination and mask mandates. This is dishonest and it is always wrong.<\/span><\/div>\n<div dir=\"auto\">*<\/div>\n<div dir=\"auto\">\n<div class=\"kvgmc6g5 cxmmr5t8 oygrvhab hcukyx3x c1et5uql\">\n<div dir=\"auto\"><span style=\"color: #0000ff;\">This document must be understood in light of Pope Francis\u2019 more recent fatherly exhortation alongside several cardinals to receive vaccination as an act of love. I as a traditional Catholic will exercise my right to agree with the Holy Father.<\/span><\/div>\n<div dir=\"auto\">*<\/div>\n<div dir=\"auto\">\n<div class=\"kvgmc6g5 cxmmr5t8 oygrvhab hcukyx3x c1et5uql\">\n<div dir=\"auto\">Yes, voluntarily, with the exceptions on the basis of conscience or advice of one\u2019s doctor, etc. Learn the difference between \u201cagreeing\u201d and being \u201c<em><strong>obliged<\/strong><\/em> to agree based on the magisterium.\u201d This thing is <strong><em>not<\/em> <\/strong>the latter. You\u2019re simply agreeing with a non-magisterial opinion of the pope, where his particular view carries no more weight than anyone else\u2019s.<\/div>\n<div dir=\"auto\">*<\/div>\n<div dir=\"auto\">\n<div class=\"kvgmc6g5 cxmmr5t8 oygrvhab hcukyx3x c1et5uql\">\n<div dir=\"auto\">By living a healthy lifestyle, my family (generalizing) has healthy immune systems. None of my family have gotten COVID. That\u2019s ten people: wife and I, four children, two daughters-in-law, and two granddaughters. Only one of us has received the vaccine.<\/div>\n<div dir=\"auto\">*<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"o9v6fnle cxmmr5t8 oygrvhab hcukyx3x c1et5uql\">\n<div dir=\"auto\">I\u2019ve followed all of the public protocol. Michigan had some of the strictest restrictions in the nation for well over a year. Meanwhile, a guy like President Obama didn\u2019t give a damn about the rhetoric of his own party concerning masks: with a birthday party of 700 mask-free people. So I follow rules even when I am skeptical about them, whereas folks like Obama and Pelosi and our beloved Governor Whitmer talk the talk but don\u2019t walk the walk. They\u2019re not even consistent with the advice they dish out to others and force them to abide by (typical of liberal elitism).<\/div>\n<div dir=\"auto\">*<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"o9v6fnle cxmmr5t8 oygrvhab hcukyx3x c1et5uql\">\n<div dir=\"auto\">That said, we\u2019re not gonna live our lives cowering in fear over a variant now that mostly has the terrifying symptoms of a common cold, and results in very very few deaths (most no doubt in those with other serious conditions already).<\/div>\n<div dir=\"auto\">*<\/div>\n<div dir=\"auto\">\n<div class=\"o9v6fnle cxmmr5t8 oygrvhab hcukyx3x c1et5uql\">\n<div dir=\"auto\"><span style=\"color: #0000ff;\">My doctor is also a friend of mine. What I understand from him is that the symptoms often are not as serious for those who are healthy <strong><em>and<\/em><\/strong> have been vaccinated. It is different if you have not been vaccinated. Much higher risk of requiring hospitalization and of dying or experiencing serious long-term health consequences. The Delta variant which is much more contagious and appears to be much more serious. I would be extremely cautious.<\/span><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div dir=\"auto\">*<\/div>\n<div dir=\"auto\">We go to church (our main social activity), go to our favorite lake, and my daughter just went to a concert in Comerica Park, where the Tigers play: filled up and almost no masks.<\/div>\n<div dir=\"auto\">*<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"o9v6fnle cxmmr5t8 oygrvhab hcukyx3x c1et5uql\">\n<div dir=\"auto\">Now, if, say, a thousand out of that crowd get COVID and have the sniffles and a sore throat for a week, I think they will think it was worth it to get back to normal again. Anyone there was obviously not concerned about it. Or they were vaccinated in the first place, or have natural immunity from having had it already.<\/div>\n<div dir=\"auto\">*<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"o9v6fnle cxmmr5t8 oygrvhab hcukyx3x c1et5uql\">\n<div dir=\"auto\">Meanwhile, those who are at serious risk can get vaccinated as they choose, and stop worrying so much about it. And they can take all the more precautions. It doesn\u2019t follow that <strong><em>all<\/em><\/strong> of us must do so.<\/div>\n<div dir=\"auto\">*<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"o9v6fnle cxmmr5t8 oygrvhab hcukyx3x c1et5uql\">\n<div dir=\"auto\">Life is filled with risks. A certain percentage of people will get killed in car accidents. But virtually no one will say they refuse to drive a car because of that. Smoking is legal, even though we <strong><em>know<\/em><\/strong> full well that many thousands will die of lung cancer because of it (as my father did). No one is advocating making cigarettes illegal, or forcing all smokers to cease immediately. We\u2019re relatively unconcerned about drunk drivers, who kill many thousands every year. The bars are doing a brisk business. Very few talk about the harm done by white sugar (that I have avoided for now 38 years), or the suicide and overdose epidemics among young people, etc., etc.<\/div>\n<div dir=\"auto\">*<\/div>\n<div dir=\"auto\">\n<div class=\"kvgmc6g5 cxmmr5t8 oygrvhab hcukyx3x c1et5uql\">\n<div dir=\"auto\">The original virus was much more dangerous than this present one (though this one is more contagious: so they say). All your examples are from \u201cbefore the Delta variant\u201d as you yourself say. The media rarely makes any necessary distinctions. So they\u2019ll say, for example, that the hospitals are filled to the brim, but they talk little about the mildness of symptoms, and long-term prognosis, or how very few die, or how those who do already were immuno-compromised or otherwise seriously ill, or elderly (i.e., among those who need to be much more cautious). The public deserves <em><strong>all<\/strong><\/em> of the truth, not liberal selected tidbits that fit their agenda.<\/div>\n<div dir=\"auto\">*<\/div>\n<div dir=\"auto\"><span style=\"color: #0000ff;\">My understanding is that Delta is a lot more mild for those who are immunized.<\/span><\/div>\n<div dir=\"auto\">*<\/div>\n<div dir=\"auto\">\n<div class=\"kvgmc6g5 cxmmr5t8 oygrvhab hcukyx3x c1et5uql\">\n<div dir=\"auto\">Here\u2019s some homework for you:<\/div>\n<div dir=\"auto\">*<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"o9v6fnle cxmmr5t8 oygrvhab hcukyx3x c1et5uql\">\n<div dir=\"auto\">Please find me two articles: one that thinks Delta is really terrible and alarming, and another that doesn\u2019t. Or do you think it is impossible to find anyone who thinks the latter? I\u2019m pretty sure there is <em>more than one<\/em> legitimate scientific \/ medical opinion out there. And this is what <strong><em>ticks<\/em><\/strong> so many of us off. Only one side is ever presented, as if <strong><em>any<\/em><\/strong> disagreement is wacko conspiratorialism. The Democrats habitually do this with every issue.<\/div>\n<div dir=\"auto\">*<\/div>\n<div dir=\"auto\"><span style=\"color: #0000ff;\">I\u2019m not a medical expert. So generally I agree with my doctor and friends in the medical profession. Most of them are pretty much in agreement with Dr Fauci.<\/span><\/div>\n<div dir=\"auto\">*<\/div>\n<div dir=\"auto\">Can you <em>conceive<\/em> of a legitimate scientific \/ medical opinion that differs from Dr. Fauci and current liberal dogma?<\/div>\n<div dir=\"auto\">*<\/div>\n<div dir=\"auto\"><span style=\"color: #0000ff;\">Science is neither liberal nor conservative. It is science.<\/span><\/div>\n<div dir=\"auto\">*<\/div>\n<div dir=\"auto\">Exactly my point. So why don\u2019t you answer my question? Is it conceivable to you that a non-wacko regular old scientist could possibly disagree with Fauci and those who think there are no concerns whatever with the vaccines?<\/div>\n<div dir=\"auto\">*<\/div>\n<div dir=\"auto\">\n<div class=\"q9uorilb bvz0fpym c1et5uql sf5mxxl7\">\n<div class=\"_680y\">\n<div class=\"_6cuy\">\n<div class=\"b3i9ofy5 e72ty7fz qlfml3jp inkptoze qmr60zad rq0escxv oo9gr5id q9uorilb kvgmc6g5 cxmmr5t8 oygrvhab hcukyx3x d2edcug0 jm1wdb64 l9j0dhe7 l3itjdph qv66sw1b\">\n<div class=\"tw6a2znq sj5x9vvc d1544ag0 cxgpxx05\">\n<div class=\"ecm0bbzt e5nlhep0 a8c37x1j\">\n<div class=\"kvgmc6g5 cxmmr5t8 oygrvhab hcukyx3x c1et5uql\">\n<div dir=\"auto\"><span style=\"color: #0000ff;\">On what basis?<\/span><\/div>\n<div dir=\"auto\">*<\/div>\n<div dir=\"auto\">\n<div>\n<div class=\"q9uorilb bvz0fpym c1et5uql sf5mxxl7\">\n<div class=\"_680y\">\n<div class=\"_6cuy\">\n<div class=\"b3i9ofy5 e72ty7fz qlfml3jp inkptoze qmr60zad rq0escxv oo9gr5id q9uorilb kvgmc6g5 cxmmr5t8 oygrvhab hcukyx3x d2edcug0 jm1wdb64 l9j0dhe7 l3itjdph qv66sw1b\">\n<div class=\"tw6a2znq sj5x9vvc d1544ag0 cxgpxx05\">\n<div class=\"ecm0bbzt e5nlhep0 a8c37x1j\">\n<div class=\"kvgmc6g5 cxmmr5t8 oygrvhab hcukyx3x c1et5uql\">\n<div dir=\"auto\">It\u2019s a simple yes or no answer. Don\u2019t play games.<\/div>\n<div dir=\"auto\">*<\/div>\n<div dir=\"auto\"><span style=\"color: #0000ff;\">I have yet to meet a doctor in person among my various medical experts, family members, and social contacts who disagrees with Dr Fauci when it comes to COVID.<\/span><\/div>\n<div dir=\"auto\">*<\/div>\n<div dir=\"auto\">I didn\u2019t ask that. I asked, \u201cIs it <strong><em>conceivable<\/em><\/strong>\u00a0to you that a non-wacko regular old scientist could possibly disagree with Fauci?\u201d<\/div>\n<div dir=\"auto\">*<\/div>\n<div dir=\"auto\">\n<div class=\"kvgmc6g5 cxmmr5t8 oygrvhab hcukyx3x c1et5uql\">\n<div dir=\"auto\"><span style=\"color: #0000ff;\">The most candid answer I can give you is that I would need to know what that looks like. Conception, for me, should be based upon reality. And my reality so far is that every doctor and medical professional with whom I have spoken personally agrees with Dr Fauci. I\u2019m not a doctor. So when it comes to medicine and disease control I trust what pretty much every doctor and medical professional is telling me. But as Christ states in the Gospel according to St Mark, \u201cThose who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick.\u201d What I have noticed is that the non-vaccinated trying to convince me doctors are wrong are all among the healthy.<\/span><\/div>\n<div dir=\"auto\">*<\/div>\n<div dir=\"auto\">\n<div class=\"kvgmc6g5 cxmmr5t8 oygrvhab hcukyx3x c1et5uql\">\n<div dir=\"auto\">So you can\u2019t conceive of it. Thank you. Of course, this is the characteristic of a closed mind. No one could<em> possibly<\/em> disagree with the Standard Line. It can\u2019t even be <em>conceived<\/em> that a non-wacko, non-conspiratorialist doctor or scientists might have a different opinion. You won\u2019t concede that. And my point is abundantly made.<\/div>\n<div dir=\"auto\">*<\/div>\n<div dir=\"auto\">\n<div class=\"kvgmc6g5 cxmmr5t8 oygrvhab hcukyx3x c1et5uql\">\n<div dir=\"auto\"><span style=\"color: #0000ff;\">First, I think it was GK Chesterton who said: \u201cAn open mind is like an open mouth. It\u2019s purpose is to close it again on something solid.\u201d In this case the solid I identify as a non-expert in medicine is every doctor and medical professional I know, including those I know through the pro-life movement, telling me to get vaccinated.<\/span><\/div>\n<div dir=\"auto\">*<\/div>\n<div dir=\"auto\">I have not told you or anyone else <em>not<\/em> to get vaccinated. So I am not contradicting that advice. But your latest replies are simply yet more obfuscation, and still don\u2019t address my deliberately provocative, socratic question.<br>\n*<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"o9v6fnle cxmmr5t8 oygrvhab hcukyx3x c1et5uql\">\n<div dir=\"auto\"><span style=\"color: #0000ff;\">As a traditional Catholic I know this advice from medical experts is not contrary to Catholic teaching because it is the same message professed by Pope Francis and several cardinals in the Holy Father\u2019s recent PSA to Catholics. So the fact Pope Francis and Dr Fauci are in agreement seals it for me as a solid from the perspective of both medical expertise and Catholic moral theology.<\/span><\/div>\n<div dir=\"auto\">*<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"o9v6fnle cxmmr5t8 oygrvhab hcukyx3x c1et5uql\">\n<div dir=\"auto\"><span style=\"color: #0000ff;\">Second, I believe it was Socrates who pointed out that no person can read another person\u2019s mind. Therefore it is never advisable that one presume to do so. My conception of you in the context of this discussion is that you are not a doctor, medical professional, or scientific expert in public health or disease control.<\/span><\/div>\n<div dir=\"auto\">*<\/div>\n<div dir=\"auto\">\n<div class=\"kvgmc6g5 cxmmr5t8 oygrvhab hcukyx3x c1et5uql\">\n<div dir=\"auto\">The question does not depend upon, nor presuppose that you have to be a medical expert to answer it. It was asking whether you can \u201cconceive\u201d of a different medical opinion. It wasn\u2019t asking whether you personally are <em>aware<\/em> of same, or whether you have the <em>expertise<\/em> to intelligently ascertain its truthfulness or plausibility.<\/div>\n<div dir=\"auto\">*<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"o9v6fnle cxmmr5t8 oygrvhab hcukyx3x c1et5uql\">\n<div dir=\"auto\">The refusal to directly answer and the hemming and hawing and topic-switching shows that you are uncomfortable with the question at some deep level: that you don\u2019t want to grapple with it. And I say that it indicates a profoundly closed mind. Not only do you keep implying that there is no such legitimate dissenting opinion, but far beyond that, you can\u2019t even <em>conceive<\/em> of such a thing.<\/div>\n<div dir=\"auto\">*<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"o9v6fnle cxmmr5t8 oygrvhab hcukyx3x c1et5uql\">\n<div dir=\"auto\">That\u2019s exactly what the Liberal Thought Police <em>want<\/em> you to think and assume: no one can possibly disagree with what they decree and demand without being nuts, a wacko, a fringe fanaticist, or tin-foil hat conspiracy theorist. You\u2019re a good, obedient sheep.<br>\n*<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"o9v6fnle cxmmr5t8 oygrvhab hcukyx3x c1et5uql\">\n<div dir=\"auto\">If there is <em>anything<\/em> that genuine, authentic, true science assuredly is <em><strong>not<\/strong><\/em>, it is <em>this<\/em>:<\/div>\n<div dir=\"auto\">*<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"o9v6fnle cxmmr5t8 oygrvhab hcukyx3x c1et5uql\">\n<div dir=\"auto\">It\u2019s <strong><em>not<\/em> <\/strong>a set of dogmas asserted from on high, that no scientist (on pain of being classified and \u201ccancelled\u201d as a nutcase) can possibly challenge or submit to test, or hypothesize or theorize against, by the usual methods of science.<\/div>\n<div dir=\"auto\">*<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"o9v6fnle cxmmr5t8 oygrvhab hcukyx3x c1et5uql\">\n<div dir=\"auto\">By its very nature, anything can be questioned. Even Newton\u2019s laws of gravitation (over against ferocious opposition) were eventually questioned and then overthrown (by eventual empirical observation), per Einstein\u2019s initial theorizing.<br>\n*<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"o9v6fnle cxmmr5t8 oygrvhab hcukyx3x c1et5uql\">\n<div dir=\"auto\"><em><strong>That<\/strong><\/em> is science. But this nonsense that \u201call\u201d sane, rational, thoughtful, objective scientists and doctors supposedly accept one thing and one thing only is not science at all. It\u2019s preconceived dogma, motivated by purely political considerations. And as you correctly noted, true science is not political.<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div dir=\"auto\">*<\/div>\n<div dir=\"auto\"><span style=\"color: #0000ff;\">\u201cYou\u2019re a good, obedient sheep.\u201d Is that not a biblical image first introduced by Christ in the gospels for His people?<\/span><\/div>\n<div dir=\"auto\">*<\/div>\n<div dir=\"auto\">Yep. But that\u2019s theology and a religious matter, and the submission is to Jesus Christ and the Church. We\u2019re talking about science, and its current massive corruption by politicization, and being \u201csheep\u201d in the bad sense of fearful kow-towing to Arbitrary Liberal Dogma.<br>\n*<br>\nScience is not of that nature. Scientists don\u2019t accept without question any supposed \u201cdogma.\u201d Dogma is not a proper category in science. Nor is \u201cobedience.\u201d The scientist (by the very nature of science) relentlessly questions and tests and sees whether any given view can withstand scrutiny.<\/div>\n<div dir=\"auto\">*<\/div>\n<div dir=\"auto\"><\/div>\n<div dir=\"auto\"><strong><span style=\"color: #800080;\">Related Reading<\/span><\/strong><\/div>\n<div dir=\"auto\">*<\/div>\n<div dir=\"auto\">\n<div><a href=\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2020\/08\/face-masks-is-scientific-evidence-unanimous.html\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\">Face Masks: Is Scientific Evidence Unanimous?<\/a>\u00a0[7-10-20]<\/div>\n<div>*<\/div>\n<div><a href=\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2021\/02\/mandatory-covid-vaccines-facebook-fascist-censorship.html\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\">Mandatory COVID Vaccines &amp; Facebook Fascist Censorship<\/a>\u00a0[2-9-21]<\/div>\n<div>*<\/div>\n<div>\n<div class=\"qzhwtbm6 knvmm38d\"><span class=\"d2edcug0 hpfvmrgz qv66sw1b c1et5uql lr9zc1uh a8c37x1j keod5gw0 nxhoafnm aigsh9s9 d3f4x2em fe6kdd0r mau55g9w c8b282yb iv3no6db a5q79mjw g1cxx5fr lrazzd5p oo9gr5id hzawbc8m\" dir=\"auto\"><span class=\"a8c37x1j ni8dbmo4 stjgntxs l9j0dhe7 ojkyduve\"><span dir=\"auto\"><a href=\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2021\/04\/covid-potpourri-herd-immunity-of-critical-cases-lord-fauci-etc.html\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\">COVID Potpourri: Herd Immunity, % of Critical Cases, Lord Fauci, Etc.<\/a>\u00a0[4-16-21]<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/div>\n<div>*<\/div>\n<div>\n<div><a href=\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2021\/08\/unvaccinated-people-conscience-condescension-coercion.html\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\">Unvaccinated People, Conscience, Condescension, &amp; Coercion (A Vigorous Group Discussion Among Equally Committed Orthodox Catholics)<\/a>\u00a0[8-14-21]<\/div>\n<div>*<\/div>\n<div><a href=\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2021\/08\/debate-conscience-vs-covid-vaccines-natural-herd-immunity.html\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\">Debate: Conscience vs. COVID Vaccines \/ Natural &amp; Herd Immunity<\/a>\u00a0[8-16-21]<\/div>\n<div>*<\/div>\n<div>***<\/div>\n<div>*<\/div>\n<div><strong><span style=\"color: #008000;\">Photo credit:<\/span><\/strong> <a class=\"hover_opacity decorated-link\" href=\"https:\/\/pixabay.com\/users\/fernandozhiminaicela-6246704\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\">fernandozhiminaicela<\/a> <span style=\"color: #0000ff;\">(4-1-20)<\/span> [<a href=\"https:\/\/pixabay.com\/photos\/coronavirus-covid-19-virus-4985942\/\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\">Pixabay<\/a> \/ <a href=\"https:\/\/pixabay.com\/service\/license\/\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\">Pixabay License<\/a>]<\/div>\n<div>*<\/div>\n<div>***<\/div>\n<div>*<\/div>\n<div><em>Summary<\/em>: We discuss the objection from conscience to the COVID vaccines (use of aborted babies). Then we address whether any legitimate scientist has valid concerns about the vaccines.<\/div>\n<div>*<\/div>\n<div>***<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div><\/div>\n<\/body><\/html>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Charlie Fromm-Starkville, a Facebook friend of mine, describes himself as a \u201ctraditional Catholic\u201d. This back-and-forth exchange took place on my Facebook page: edited (some sub-threads not included) for the sake of relative brevity and flow of content. His words will be in blue. ***** Pope Francis has endorsed (as he must, because it is solidly [&hellip;]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2331,"featured_media":59147,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[289],"tags":[13022,14568,13046,10452,14544,14547,14535,13013,14562,14553,13472,14538,14572,14550,10458,14569,14532,14556,14559,14541,14565],"class_list":["post-59146","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-political-ethical-moral-issues","tag-anthony-fauci","tag-cdc","tag-conscientious-objection-to-vaccines","tag-coronavirus","tag-coronavirus-vacines","tag-covid","tag-covid-vaccinations","tag-covid-vaccines","tag-dr-fauci","tag-ethical-objection-to-vaccines","tag-herd-immunity","tag-mandatory-vaccinations","tag-natural-immunity","tag-objections-to-vaccines","tag-pandemic","tag-rand-paul","tag-unvaccinated-people","tag-use-of-aborted-babies-in-vaccines","tag-vaccinations","tag-vaccinations-conscience","tag-who"],"yoast_head":"<!-- This site is optimized with the Yoast SEO plugin v21.1 - https:\/\/yoast.com\/wordpress\/plugins\/seo\/ -->\n<title>COVID Vaccines, Conscience, &amp; the Pope: a Catholic Dialogue COVID Vaccines, Conscience, &amp; the Pope: a Catholic Dialogue<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"Charlie Fromm-Starkville, a Facebook friend of mine, describes himself as a &quot;traditional Catholic&quot;. This back-and-forth exchange took place on my Facebook We discuss the objection from conscience to the COVID vaccines (use of aborted babies). Then we address whether any legitimate scientist has valid concerns about the vaccines.\" \/>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<link rel=\"canonical\" href=\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2021\/08\/covid-vaccines-conscience-the-pope-a-catholic-dialogue.html\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"en_US\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:type\" content=\"article\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:title\" content=\"COVID Vaccines, Conscience, &amp; the Pope: a Catholic Dialogue COVID Vaccines, Conscience, &amp; the Pope: a Catholic Dialogue\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:description\" content=\"Charlie Fromm-Starkville, a Facebook friend of mine, describes himself as a &quot;traditional Catholic&quot;. This back-and-forth exchange took place on my Facebook We discuss the objection from conscience to the COVID vaccines (use of aborted babies). Then we address whether any legitimate scientist has valid concerns about the vaccines.\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:url\" content=\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2021\/08\/covid-vaccines-conscience-the-pope-a-catholic-dialogue.html\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:site_name\" content=\"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism\" \/>\n<meta property=\"article:author\" content=\"https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/dave.armstrong.798\" \/>\n<meta property=\"article:published_time\" content=\"2021-08-21T16:02:41+00:00\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:image\" content=\"https:\/\/wp-media.patheos.com\/blogs\/sites\/572\/2021\/08\/Coronavirus3.jpg\" \/>\n\t<meta property=\"og:image:width\" content=\"640\" \/>\n\t<meta property=\"og:image:height\" content=\"427\" \/>\n\t<meta property=\"og:image:type\" content=\"image\/jpeg\" \/>\n<meta name=\"author\" content=\"Dave Armstrong\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:card\" content=\"summary_large_image\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:label1\" content=\"Written by\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:data1\" content=\"Dave Armstrong\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:label2\" content=\"Est. reading time\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:data2\" content=\"23 minutes\" \/>\n<script type=\"application\/ld+json\" class=\"yoast-schema-graph\">{\"@context\":\"https:\/\/schema.org\",\"@graph\":[{\"@type\":\"WebPage\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2021\/08\/covid-vaccines-conscience-the-pope-a-catholic-dialogue.html\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2021\/08\/covid-vaccines-conscience-the-pope-a-catholic-dialogue.html\",\"name\":\"COVID Vaccines, Conscience, & the Pope: a Catholic Dialogue COVID Vaccines, Conscience, & the Pope: a Catholic Dialogue\",\"isPartOf\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/#website\"},\"datePublished\":\"2021-08-21T16:02:41+00:00\",\"dateModified\":\"2021-08-21T16:02:41+00:00\",\"author\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/#\/schema\/person\/471eaa20e441eca4bb1ea50393cf632e\"},\"description\":\"Charlie Fromm-Starkville, a Facebook friend of mine, describes himself as a \\\"traditional Catholic\\\". This back-and-forth exchange took place on my Facebook We discuss the objection from conscience to the COVID vaccines (use of aborted babies). Then we address whether any legitimate scientist has valid concerns about the vaccines.\",\"breadcrumb\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2021\/08\/covid-vaccines-conscience-the-pope-a-catholic-dialogue.html#breadcrumb\"},\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\",\"potentialAction\":[{\"@type\":\"ReadAction\",\"target\":[\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2021\/08\/covid-vaccines-conscience-the-pope-a-catholic-dialogue.html\"]}]},{\"@type\":\"BreadcrumbList\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2021\/08\/covid-vaccines-conscience-the-pope-a-catholic-dialogue.html#breadcrumb\",\"itemListElement\":[{\"@type\":\"ListItem\",\"position\":1,\"name\":\"Home\",\"item\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\"},{\"@type\":\"ListItem\",\"position\":2,\"name\":\"COVID Vaccines, Conscience, &#038; the Pope: a Catholic Dialogue\"}]},{\"@type\":\"WebSite\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/#website\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/\",\"name\":\"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism\",\"description\":\"Catholic biblical apologetics\",\"potentialAction\":[{\"@type\":\"SearchAction\",\"target\":{\"@type\":\"EntryPoint\",\"urlTemplate\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/?s={search_term_string}\"},\"query-input\":\"required name=search_term_string\"}],\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\"},{\"@type\":\"Person\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/#\/schema\/person\/471eaa20e441eca4bb1ea50393cf632e\",\"name\":\"Dave Armstrong\",\"image\":{\"@type\":\"ImageObject\",\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/#\/schema\/person\/image\/\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/secure.gravatar.com\/avatar\/820e6db89734ae7a9e5dac8d498f5ac7?s=96&d=mm&r=g\",\"contentUrl\":\"https:\/\/secure.gravatar.com\/avatar\/820e6db89734ae7a9e5dac8d498f5ac7?s=96&d=mm&r=g\",\"caption\":\"Dave Armstrong\"},\"description\":\"Dave Armstrong is a Catholic author and apologist, who has been actively proclaiming and defending Christianity since 1981, and Catholicism in particular since 1991 (full-time since December 2001). Formerly a campus missionary, as a Protestant, Dave was received into the Catholic Church in February 1991, by the late, well-known catechist and theologian, Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave\u2019s articles have appeared in many influential Catholic periodicals, including \\\"This Rock\\\" (now called \\\"Catholic Answers Magazine\\\"), \\\"Envoy Magazine\\\" (Patrick Madrid), \\\"The Catholic Answer,\\\" \\\"The Coming Home Journal,\\\" \\\"Gilbert Magazine\\\" (American Chesterton Society), and \\\"The Latin Mass.\\\" He also writes a featured column for every issue of \\\"The Michigan Catholic\\\": published by the archdiocese of Detroit, and was editor for most of the apologetics tracts published by the St. Paul Street Evangelization apostolate. Dave\u2019s apologetics and writing apostolate was the subject of a feature article in the May 2002 issue of \\\"Envoy Magazine.\\\" He served as the staff moderator at the Internet discussion forum for The Coming Home Network, from 2007-2010. Dave has been interviewed on many nationally syndicated Catholic radio shows, including \\\"Catholic Answers Live\\\" (twice), \\\"Faith and Family Live\\\" (Steve Wood), \\\"Kresta in the Afternoon,\\\" \\\"Son Rise Morning Show,\\\" \\\"Catholic Connection\\\" (Teresa Tomeo), and \\\"The Catholics Next Door.\\\" His large and popular website, \\\"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism,\\\" was online from March 1997 to March 2007, and received the 1998 Catholic Website of the Year award from \\\"Envoy Magazine.\\\" His blog of the same name (now transferred to Patheos), begun in February 2004, contains more than 1,500 papers, at least 500 debates or dialogues, and over 50 distinct \\\"index\\\" web pages. Unsolicited correspondence has indicated many hundreds of conversions (or returns) to the Catholic faith as a result, by God's grace, of these writings. Dave's conversion story was published in the bestselling book \\\"Surprised by Truth\\\" (edited by Patrick Madrid; San Diego: Basilica Press, 1994). Sophia Institute Press has published six of his books: \\\"A Biblical Defense of Catholicism\\\" (Foreword by Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J., 1996 \/ 2003), \\\"The Catholic Verses\\\" (2004), \\\"The One-Minute Apologist\\\" (2007), \\\"Bible Proofs for Catholic Truths\\\" (2009), \\\"The Quotable Newman\\\" (editor: 2012), and \\\"Proving the Catholic Faith is Biblical\\\" (2015). He is co-author (with Dr. Paul Thigpen) of the inserts for \\\"The New Catholic Answer Bible\\\" (Our Sunday Visitor: 2005), and editor for \\\"The Wisdom of Mr. Chesterton: The Very Best Quotes, Quips, and Cracks from the Pen of G. K. Chesterton\\\" (Saint Benedict Press \/ TAN Books: 2009). \\\"100 Biblical Arguments Against Sola Scriptura\\\" was published by Catholic Answers in May 2012. His \\\"Quotable Wesley\\\" compilation was published by (Protestant \/ Wesleyan publisher) Beacon Hill Press in April 2014. Several of his 49 books are bestsellers in their field. Dave maintains a popular personal Facebook page, a Facebook author page, and has a Twitter account as well. He offers almost all of his books in e-book form on his own Biblical Catholicism site (http:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/), at a permanent deep discount: only $2.99 for ePub, mobi, and AZW, and $1.99 for PDF. His writing has been enthusiastically endorsed or recommended by many leading Catholic apologists, authors, and priests, including Dr. Scott Hahn, Fr. Peter M. J. Stravinskas, Marcus Grodi, Patrick Madrid, Steve Ray, Tim Staples, Devin Rose, Mike Aquilina, Al Kresta, Karl Keating, Fr. Dwight Longenecker, Brandon Vogt, Marcellino D'Ambrosio, and Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave has been happily married to his wife Judy since October 1984. They have three sons and a daughter, and reside in southeast Michigan (metro Detroit).\",\"sameAs\":[\"https:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/\",\"https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/dave.armstrong.798\",\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/@LuxVeritatisApologetics\"],\"url\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/author\/davearmstrong\"}]}<\/script>\n<!-- \/ Yoast SEO plugin. -->","yoast_head_json":{"title":"COVID Vaccines, Conscience, & the Pope: a Catholic Dialogue COVID Vaccines, Conscience, & the Pope: a Catholic Dialogue","description":"Charlie Fromm-Starkville, a Facebook friend of mine, describes himself as a \"traditional Catholic\". This back-and-forth exchange took place on my Facebook We discuss the objection from conscience to the COVID vaccines (use of aborted babies). Then we address whether any legitimate scientist has valid concerns about the vaccines.","robots":{"index":"index","follow":"follow","max-snippet":"max-snippet:-1","max-image-preview":"max-image-preview:large","max-video-preview":"max-video-preview:-1"},"canonical":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2021\/08\/covid-vaccines-conscience-the-pope-a-catholic-dialogue.html","og_locale":"en_US","og_type":"article","og_title":"COVID Vaccines, Conscience, & the Pope: a Catholic Dialogue COVID Vaccines, Conscience, & the Pope: a Catholic Dialogue","og_description":"Charlie Fromm-Starkville, a Facebook friend of mine, describes himself as a \"traditional Catholic\". This back-and-forth exchange took place on my Facebook We discuss the objection from conscience to the COVID vaccines (use of aborted babies). Then we address whether any legitimate scientist has valid concerns about the vaccines.","og_url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2021\/08\/covid-vaccines-conscience-the-pope-a-catholic-dialogue.html","og_site_name":"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism","article_author":"https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/dave.armstrong.798","article_published_time":"2021-08-21T16:02:41+00:00","og_image":[{"width":640,"height":427,"url":"https:\/\/wp-media.patheos.com\/blogs\/sites\/572\/2021\/08\/Coronavirus3.jpg","type":"image\/jpeg"}],"author":"Dave Armstrong","twitter_card":"summary_large_image","twitter_misc":{"Written by":"Dave Armstrong","Est. reading time":"23 minutes"},"schema":{"@context":"https:\/\/schema.org","@graph":[{"@type":"WebPage","@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2021\/08\/covid-vaccines-conscience-the-pope-a-catholic-dialogue.html","url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2021\/08\/covid-vaccines-conscience-the-pope-a-catholic-dialogue.html","name":"COVID Vaccines, Conscience, & the Pope: a Catholic Dialogue COVID Vaccines, Conscience, & the Pope: a Catholic Dialogue","isPartOf":{"@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/#website"},"datePublished":"2021-08-21T16:02:41+00:00","dateModified":"2021-08-21T16:02:41+00:00","author":{"@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/#\/schema\/person\/471eaa20e441eca4bb1ea50393cf632e"},"description":"Charlie Fromm-Starkville, a Facebook friend of mine, describes himself as a \"traditional Catholic\". This back-and-forth exchange took place on my Facebook We discuss the objection from conscience to the COVID vaccines (use of aborted babies). Then we address whether any legitimate scientist has valid concerns about the vaccines.","breadcrumb":{"@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2021\/08\/covid-vaccines-conscience-the-pope-a-catholic-dialogue.html#breadcrumb"},"inLanguage":"en-US","potentialAction":[{"@type":"ReadAction","target":["https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2021\/08\/covid-vaccines-conscience-the-pope-a-catholic-dialogue.html"]}]},{"@type":"BreadcrumbList","@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2021\/08\/covid-vaccines-conscience-the-pope-a-catholic-dialogue.html#breadcrumb","itemListElement":[{"@type":"ListItem","position":1,"name":"Home","item":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong"},{"@type":"ListItem","position":2,"name":"COVID Vaccines, Conscience, &#038; the Pope: a Catholic Dialogue"}]},{"@type":"WebSite","@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/#website","url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/","name":"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism","description":"Catholic biblical apologetics","potentialAction":[{"@type":"SearchAction","target":{"@type":"EntryPoint","urlTemplate":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/?s={search_term_string}"},"query-input":"required name=search_term_string"}],"inLanguage":"en-US"},{"@type":"Person","@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/#\/schema\/person\/471eaa20e441eca4bb1ea50393cf632e","name":"Dave Armstrong","image":{"@type":"ImageObject","inLanguage":"en-US","@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/#\/schema\/person\/image\/","url":"https:\/\/secure.gravatar.com\/avatar\/820e6db89734ae7a9e5dac8d498f5ac7?s=96&d=mm&r=g","contentUrl":"https:\/\/secure.gravatar.com\/avatar\/820e6db89734ae7a9e5dac8d498f5ac7?s=96&d=mm&r=g","caption":"Dave Armstrong"},"description":"Dave Armstrong is a Catholic author and apologist, who has been actively proclaiming and defending Christianity since 1981, and Catholicism in particular since 1991 (full-time since December 2001). Formerly a campus missionary, as a Protestant, Dave was received into the Catholic Church in February 1991, by the late, well-known catechist and theologian, Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave\u2019s articles have appeared in many influential Catholic periodicals, including \"This Rock\" (now called \"Catholic Answers Magazine\"), \"Envoy Magazine\" (Patrick Madrid), \"The Catholic Answer,\" \"The Coming Home Journal,\" \"Gilbert Magazine\" (American Chesterton Society), and \"The Latin Mass.\" He also writes a featured column for every issue of \"The Michigan Catholic\": published by the archdiocese of Detroit, and was editor for most of the apologetics tracts published by the St. Paul Street Evangelization apostolate. Dave\u2019s apologetics and writing apostolate was the subject of a feature article in the May 2002 issue of \"Envoy Magazine.\" He served as the staff moderator at the Internet discussion forum for The Coming Home Network, from 2007-2010. Dave has been interviewed on many nationally syndicated Catholic radio shows, including \"Catholic Answers Live\" (twice), \"Faith and Family Live\" (Steve Wood), \"Kresta in the Afternoon,\" \"Son Rise Morning Show,\" \"Catholic Connection\" (Teresa Tomeo), and \"The Catholics Next Door.\" His large and popular website, \"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism,\" was online from March 1997 to March 2007, and received the 1998 Catholic Website of the Year award from \"Envoy Magazine.\" His blog of the same name (now transferred to Patheos), begun in February 2004, contains more than 1,500 papers, at least 500 debates or dialogues, and over 50 distinct \"index\" web pages. Unsolicited correspondence has indicated many hundreds of conversions (or returns) to the Catholic faith as a result, by God's grace, of these writings. Dave's conversion story was published in the bestselling book \"Surprised by Truth\" (edited by Patrick Madrid; San Diego: Basilica Press, 1994). Sophia Institute Press has published six of his books: \"A Biblical Defense of Catholicism\" (Foreword by Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J., 1996 \/ 2003), \"The Catholic Verses\" (2004), \"The One-Minute Apologist\" (2007), \"Bible Proofs for Catholic Truths\" (2009), \"The Quotable Newman\" (editor: 2012), and \"Proving the Catholic Faith is Biblical\" (2015). He is co-author (with Dr. Paul Thigpen) of the inserts for \"The New Catholic Answer Bible\" (Our Sunday Visitor: 2005), and editor for \"The Wisdom of Mr. Chesterton: The Very Best Quotes, Quips, and Cracks from the Pen of G. K. Chesterton\" (Saint Benedict Press \/ TAN Books: 2009). \"100 Biblical Arguments Against Sola Scriptura\" was published by Catholic Answers in May 2012. His \"Quotable Wesley\" compilation was published by (Protestant \/ Wesleyan publisher) Beacon Hill Press in April 2014. Several of his 49 books are bestsellers in their field. Dave maintains a popular personal Facebook page, a Facebook author page, and has a Twitter account as well. He offers almost all of his books in e-book form on his own Biblical Catholicism site (http:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/), at a permanent deep discount: only $2.99 for ePub, mobi, and AZW, and $1.99 for PDF. His writing has been enthusiastically endorsed or recommended by many leading Catholic apologists, authors, and priests, including Dr. Scott Hahn, Fr. Peter M. J. Stravinskas, Marcus Grodi, Patrick Madrid, Steve Ray, Tim Staples, Devin Rose, Mike Aquilina, Al Kresta, Karl Keating, Fr. Dwight Longenecker, Brandon Vogt, Marcellino D'Ambrosio, and Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave has been happily married to his wife Judy since October 1984. They have three sons and a daughter, and reside in southeast Michigan (metro Detroit).","sameAs":["https:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/","https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/dave.armstrong.798","https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/@LuxVeritatisApologetics"],"url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/author\/davearmstrong"}]}},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/59146","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/2331"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=59146"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/59146\/revisions"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/59147"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=59146"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=59146"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=59146"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}