{"id":60847,"date":"2021-10-27T15:43:37","date_gmt":"2021-10-27T19:43:37","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/?p=60847"},"modified":"2021-11-03T18:43:31","modified_gmt":"2021-11-03T22:43:31","slug":"karl-keating-botches-cyprian-infallibility-citation","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2021\/10\/karl-keating-botches-cyprian-infallibility-citation.html","title":{"rendered":"Karl Keating Botches Cyprian “Infallibility Citation”"},"content":{"rendered":"\n<\/head>

\"\"<\/a><\/p>\n

Elitist (not<\/em> pop!) apologist Scott Eric Alt-Left has made a good point<\/a> about Keating apparently botching a citation purported to be stated by the Church father St. Cyprian (c. 210-258), and he complains:<\/p>\n

[A]n entirely bogus quotation attributed to St. Cyprian of Carthage, . . .\u00a0 gets quoted and requoted across Catholic apologetics cyberspace\u2009\u2014\u2009apparently without anyone bothering to check out the citation. . . .\u00a0 This fake quotation is meant to prove that St. Cyprian taught papal infallibility:<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

Alt-Left notes that none of five separate patristic sources that he checked contains these words as Keating \u201ccited\u201d them. Perhaps he became aware of this deficiency in Keating\u2019s book, Catholicism and Fundamentalism<\/em><\/a> (1988) from a forum page on OrthodoxChristianity.Net<\/a> (dated 2-2-09). Someone cited the \u201cKeating version\u201d and \u201cIrish Hermit\u201d pontificated:<\/p>\n

Unfortunately this is one of those mangled and made up quotes which the Orthodox have spent years on Catholic Answers Forum trying to correct.\u00a0 Saint Cyprian never said that.\u00a0 Some modern Catholic apologists have made it up.\u00a0 It is not an honest way of discussing things with the Orthodox -I don\u2019t mean you but I mean the original people who made up the quote. . . .<\/p>\n

As someone says on the thread:\u00a0 \u201cIf a college student did this on a paper, he could be EXPELLED.\u201d\u00a0 And they blame Karl Keating for it, although I am not sure just who is guilty.\u00a0 Keating may have picked it up from someone else.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

Keating cited St. Cyprian in his book as follows:<\/p>\n

Cyprian of Carthage, writing about 256, asked: \u201cWould heretics dare to come to the very seat of Peter whence apostolic faith<\/a> is derived and whither no errors can come?\u201d [footnote: Cyprian, Epistulae<\/em> 59 (55), 14] (p. 217)<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

Oddly, the notation of \u201c59 (55), 14\u201d occurs in Vol. I of\u00a0The Faith of the Early Fathers<\/a><\/em> (1970, p. 232), by William A. Jurgens, but Keating didn\u2019t follow Jurgens\u2019 version of the letter in question. Jason Evert repeated the same error in a 2002 article for Catholic Answers<\/a>.<\/p>\n

[later note from 11-3-21: the folks at Catholic Answers read this article. Two staff members contacted me and said that they would be removing four references to this \u201ccitation\u201d that were found on their site (including the above one, which is no longer there). Moreover, they will be sending a note to Ignatius Press: publisher of Keating\u2019s book where this error seems to have originated in more recent times. Everyone makes mistakes. What is more important is how we deal with them. Catholic Answers doesn\u2019t deserve the derision that Alt-Left and other \u201celitist cynics\u201d have been pouring upon them]<\/p>\n

Alt-Left then indignantly (?) opines:<\/p>\n

Evidently someone\u2009\u2014\u2009we\u2019ll never know who\u2009\u2014\u2009deliberately altered Cyprian\u2019s wording so as to create a proof-text for papal infallibility. Mr. Keating did not verify it, his book started a movement, and a fake quotation spread through the apologetics subculture like a coronavirus. . . .<\/p>\n

All this is one more reason why I say\u00a0caveat emptor<\/em>\u00a0when it comes to pop apologists. A lot of dubious quotations get circulated and few people try to trace them back to a primary source. They are repeated on faith (and also, to be honest, out of laziness). And they acquire the pseudo authority that comes from repetition.<\/p>\n

But this is a lesson that apologists need to start acting more like careful scholars than like robotic regurgitators who mindlessly reshare fake quote memes on Facebook.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

Alt-Left had written (with derisive exaggeration) at the beginning of the article: \u201cIts addiction to fake quotations is an indictment on pop apologetics.\u201d<\/p>\n

Just for the record (since Alt-Left has recently made a scathing attack on my work<\/a>), I searched for this version of Cyprian\u2019s words (or alleged ones) on my blog, and my books, Catholic Church Fathers: Patristic and Scholarly Proofs<\/a><\/i> (2007) \u2014 in which I cited the Schaff ANF<\/em> version, pp. 257-258 \u2014 and Biblical Proofs for an Infallible Church and Papacy<\/a><\/i> (2012), and it wasn\u2019t to be found.<\/p>\n

In the very next paragraph, Keating cites \u2014 as he often has throughout the years \u2014 the three-volume Radio Replies<\/em><\/a> by Fr. Leslie Rumble and Fr. Charles M. Carty (Rockford, Ill.: TAN Books, 1979; originally from 1938, 1940, and 1942). In fact, it appears this is where Keating (or someone doing research for him) obtained his \u201ccitation.\u201d In volume 1, question 429<\/a> (unknown page), Rumble and Carty wrote:<\/p>\n

St. Cyprian, about 256, wrote of the See of Rome, \u201cWould heretics dare to come to the very seat of Peter whence apostolic faith is derived and whither no errors can come.\u201d [no question mark in original]<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

I vigorously searched Google Books, where many 19th century books can be found and wholly or partially accessed and could find no earlier reference to the \u201cKeating citation\u201d before Rumble and Carty. I would guess that they got it from somewhere else (some more obscure patristic collection or Catholic apologetics work); I sure hope that they didn\u2019t merely mold it to their liking: which would be dishonest. We simply don\u2019t know.<\/p>\n

But it\u2019s exceedingly likely that they are the source that Keating<\/em> used. He trusted them, but didn\u2019t double-check, and so unfortunately included in his book what can only be viewed as shoddy and unsubstantiated patristic research. If I were him, I would rectify the mistake and address it publicly: because many others<\/em> are citing it, as I discovered while searching for the alleged quotation. Unfortunately, it can\u2019t be changed until such time as another edition of his book is published.<\/p>\n

***<\/p>\n

\n
Practical Matters<\/em><\/strong>: if any of my 3,850+ free online articles and\u00a050 books<\/a>\u00a0have helped you (by God\u2019s grace) to decide to\u00a0become Catholic<\/a>\u00a0or to\u00a0return to the Church<\/a>, or better understand some doctrines and\u00a0why<\/em>\u00a0we believe them<\/a>, and\/or if you believe my work is worthy to support for the purpose of apologetics and evangelism in general, please seriously consider a much-needed financial contribution. 1 December 2021 will be my 20th anniversary as a\u00a0full-time Catholic apologist<\/a>.<\/div>\n
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PayPal donations<\/a>\u00a0are the easiest: just send to my email address: apologistdave [at] gmail [dot] com (change the \u201c[at]\u201d to @ and \u201c[dot]\u201d to an actual dot, and take out spaces). \u201cCatholic Used Book Service\u201d is my old side-business. To learn about the different methods of contributing, including 100% tax deduction, etc., see my page:\u00a0About Catholic Apologist Dave Armstrong \/ Donation Information<\/a>.\u00a0Thanks a million<\/em><\/strong>\u00a0from the bottom of my heart!<\/div>\n<\/div>\n

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Summary<\/em>: Karl Keating offered a citation of St. Cyprian that can\u2019t be verified from standard patristic collections. He likely got it from 1940s radio priests Rumble & Carty.<\/p>\n<\/body><\/html>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

Elitist (not pop!) apologist Scott Eric Alt-Left has made a good point about Keating apparently botching a citation purported to be stated by the Church father St. Cyprian (c. 210-258), and he complains: [A]n entirely bogus quotation attributed to St. Cyprian of Carthage, . . .\u00a0 gets quoted and requoted across Catholic apologetics cyberspace\u2009\u2014\u2009apparently without […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2331,"featured_media":60850,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[239,138],"tags":[15140,15142,1134,161,813,4346,15137,1653,15134],"class_list":["post-60847","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-fathers-of-the-church","category-papacy-infallibility","tag-accuracy-of-patristic-quotations","tag-cyprian","tag-karl-keating","tag-papacy","tag-papal-infallibility","tag-papal-primacy","tag-patristic-quotations","tag-roman-primacy","tag-st-cyprian"],"yoast_head":"\nKarl Keating Botches Cyprian "Infallibility Citation" Karl Keating Botches Cyprian "Infallibility Citation"<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"Elitist (not pop!) apologist Scott Eric Alt-Left has made a good point about Keating apparently botching a citation purported to be stated by the Church Karl Keating offered a citation of St. Cyprian that can't be verified from standard patristic collections. 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Formerly a campus missionary, as a Protestant, Dave was received into the Catholic Church in February 1991, by the late, well-known catechist and theologian, Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave\u2019s articles have appeared in many influential Catholic periodicals, including \\\"This Rock\\\" (now called \\\"Catholic Answers Magazine\\\"), \\\"Envoy Magazine\\\" (Patrick Madrid), \\\"The Catholic Answer,\\\" \\\"The Coming Home Journal,\\\" \\\"Gilbert Magazine\\\" (American Chesterton Society), and \\\"The Latin Mass.\\\" He also writes a featured column for every issue of \\\"The Michigan Catholic\\\": published by the archdiocese of Detroit, and was editor for most of the apologetics tracts published by the St. Paul Street Evangelization apostolate. Dave\u2019s apologetics and writing apostolate was the subject of a feature article in the May 2002 issue of \\\"Envoy Magazine.\\\" He served as the staff moderator at the Internet discussion forum for The Coming Home Network, from 2007-2010. Dave has been interviewed on many nationally syndicated Catholic radio shows, including \\\"Catholic Answers Live\\\" (twice), \\\"Faith and Family Live\\\" (Steve Wood), \\\"Kresta in the Afternoon,\\\" \\\"Son Rise Morning Show,\\\" \\\"Catholic Connection\\\" (Teresa Tomeo), and \\\"The Catholics Next Door.\\\" His large and popular website, \\\"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism,\\\" was online from March 1997 to March 2007, and received the 1998 Catholic Website of the Year award from \\\"Envoy Magazine.\\\" His blog of the same name (now transferred to Patheos), begun in February 2004, contains more than 1,500 papers, at least 500 debates or dialogues, and over 50 distinct \\\"index\\\" web pages. Unsolicited correspondence has indicated many hundreds of conversions (or returns) to the Catholic faith as a result, by God's grace, of these writings. Dave's conversion story was published in the bestselling book \\\"Surprised by Truth\\\" (edited by Patrick Madrid; San Diego: Basilica Press, 1994). Sophia Institute Press has published six of his books: \\\"A Biblical Defense of Catholicism\\\" (Foreword by Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J., 1996 \/ 2003), \\\"The Catholic Verses\\\" (2004), \\\"The One-Minute Apologist\\\" (2007), \\\"Bible Proofs for Catholic Truths\\\" (2009), \\\"The Quotable Newman\\\" (editor: 2012), and \\\"Proving the Catholic Faith is Biblical\\\" (2015). He is co-author (with Dr. Paul Thigpen) of the inserts for \\\"The New Catholic Answer Bible\\\" (Our Sunday Visitor: 2005), and editor for \\\"The Wisdom of Mr. Chesterton: The Very Best Quotes, Quips, and Cracks from the Pen of G. K. Chesterton\\\" (Saint Benedict Press \/ TAN Books: 2009). \\\"100 Biblical Arguments Against Sola Scriptura\\\" was published by Catholic Answers in May 2012. His \\\"Quotable Wesley\\\" compilation was published by (Protestant \/ Wesleyan publisher) Beacon Hill Press in April 2014. Several of his 49 books are bestsellers in their field. Dave maintains a popular personal Facebook page, a Facebook author page, and has a Twitter account as well. He offers almost all of his books in e-book form on his own Biblical Catholicism site (http:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/), at a permanent deep discount: only $2.99 for ePub, mobi, and AZW, and $1.99 for PDF. His writing has been enthusiastically endorsed or recommended by many leading Catholic apologists, authors, and priests, including Dr. Scott Hahn, Fr. Peter M. J. Stravinskas, Marcus Grodi, Patrick Madrid, Steve Ray, Tim Staples, Devin Rose, Mike Aquilina, Al Kresta, Karl Keating, Fr. Dwight Longenecker, Brandon Vogt, Marcellino D'Ambrosio, and Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave has been happily married to his wife Judy since October 1984. They have three sons and a daughter, and reside in southeast Michigan (metro Detroit).\",\"sameAs\":[\"https:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/\",\"https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/dave.armstrong.798\",\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/@LuxVeritatisApologetics\"],\"url\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/author\/davearmstrong\"}]}<\/script>\n<!-- \/ Yoast SEO plugin. -->","yoast_head_json":{"title":"Karl Keating Botches Cyprian \"Infallibility Citation\" Karl Keating Botches Cyprian \"Infallibility Citation\"","description":"Elitist (not pop!) apologist Scott Eric Alt-Left has made a good point about Keating apparently botching a citation purported to be stated by the Church Karl Keating offered a citation of St. Cyprian that can't be verified from standard patristic collections. 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Formerly a campus missionary, as a Protestant, Dave was received into the Catholic Church in February 1991, by the late, well-known catechist and theologian, Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave\u2019s articles have appeared in many influential Catholic periodicals, including \"This Rock\" (now called \"Catholic Answers Magazine\"), \"Envoy Magazine\" (Patrick Madrid), \"The Catholic Answer,\" \"The Coming Home Journal,\" \"Gilbert Magazine\" (American Chesterton Society), and \"The Latin Mass.\" He also writes a featured column for every issue of \"The Michigan Catholic\": published by the archdiocese of Detroit, and was editor for most of the apologetics tracts published by the St. Paul Street Evangelization apostolate. Dave\u2019s apologetics and writing apostolate was the subject of a feature article in the May 2002 issue of \"Envoy Magazine.\" He served as the staff moderator at the Internet discussion forum for The Coming Home Network, from 2007-2010. Dave has been interviewed on many nationally syndicated Catholic radio shows, including \"Catholic Answers Live\" (twice), \"Faith and Family Live\" (Steve Wood), \"Kresta in the Afternoon,\" \"Son Rise Morning Show,\" \"Catholic Connection\" (Teresa Tomeo), and \"The Catholics Next Door.\" His large and popular website, \"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism,\" was online from March 1997 to March 2007, and received the 1998 Catholic Website of the Year award from \"Envoy Magazine.\" His blog of the same name (now transferred to Patheos), begun in February 2004, contains more than 1,500 papers, at least 500 debates or dialogues, and over 50 distinct \"index\" web pages. Unsolicited correspondence has indicated many hundreds of conversions (or returns) to the Catholic faith as a result, by God's grace, of these writings. Dave's conversion story was published in the bestselling book \"Surprised by Truth\" (edited by Patrick Madrid; San Diego: Basilica Press, 1994). Sophia Institute Press has published six of his books: \"A Biblical Defense of Catholicism\" (Foreword by Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J., 1996 \/ 2003), \"The Catholic Verses\" (2004), \"The One-Minute Apologist\" (2007), \"Bible Proofs for Catholic Truths\" (2009), \"The Quotable Newman\" (editor: 2012), and \"Proving the Catholic Faith is Biblical\" (2015). He is co-author (with Dr. Paul Thigpen) of the inserts for \"The New Catholic Answer Bible\" (Our Sunday Visitor: 2005), and editor for \"The Wisdom of Mr. Chesterton: The Very Best Quotes, Quips, and Cracks from the Pen of G. K. Chesterton\" (Saint Benedict Press \/ TAN Books: 2009). \"100 Biblical Arguments Against Sola Scriptura\" was published by Catholic Answers in May 2012. His \"Quotable Wesley\" compilation was published by (Protestant \/ Wesleyan publisher) Beacon Hill Press in April 2014. Several of his 49 books are bestsellers in their field. Dave maintains a popular personal Facebook page, a Facebook author page, and has a Twitter account as well. He offers almost all of his books in e-book form on his own Biblical Catholicism site (http:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/), at a permanent deep discount: only $2.99 for ePub, mobi, and AZW, and $1.99 for PDF. His writing has been enthusiastically endorsed or recommended by many leading Catholic apologists, authors, and priests, including Dr. Scott Hahn, Fr. Peter M. J. Stravinskas, Marcus Grodi, Patrick Madrid, Steve Ray, Tim Staples, Devin Rose, Mike Aquilina, Al Kresta, Karl Keating, Fr. Dwight Longenecker, Brandon Vogt, Marcellino D'Ambrosio, and Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave has been happily married to his wife Judy since October 1984. They have three sons and a daughter, and reside in southeast Michigan (metro Detroit).","sameAs":["https:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/","https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/dave.armstrong.798","https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/@LuxVeritatisApologetics"],"url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/author\/davearmstrong"}]}},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/60847","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/2331"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=60847"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/60847\/revisions"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/60850"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=60847"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=60847"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=60847"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}