{"id":61259,"date":"2021-11-18T16:27:32","date_gmt":"2021-11-18T20:27:32","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/?p=61259"},"modified":"2021-12-01T16:03:23","modified_gmt":"2021-12-01T20:03:23","slug":"refuting-jason-engwers-real-absence-argument","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2021\/11\/refuting-jason-engwers-real-absence-argument.html","title":{"rendered":"Refuting Jason Engwer’s “Real Absence” Argument"},"content":{"rendered":"\n<\/head>

Including Biblical Evidence of Analogous Miracles of a Supernatural Change of a Substance Minus Outward Physical Evidence\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n

\"\"<\/a><\/p>\n

Jason Engwer<\/a>\u00a0is a Protestant and anti-Catholic apologist, who runs the\u00a0Tribalblogue<\/em> site. I am responding to his article,\u00a0You Ought To Believe In A Real Absence<\/a>\u00a0(7-29-19). His words will be in blue<\/span>.<\/p>\n

*****<\/p>\n

Roman Catholics (and others) often criticize those who don\u2019t believe in a physical presence of Christ in the eucharist by referring to that view as \u201cthe real absence\u201d, in contrast to the real presence. They often act as though the phrase \u201creal absence\u201d does so much heavy lifting that they don\u2019t need to do much beyond applying that label to their opponents\u2019 view. But there\u2019s nothing wrong with absence in this context, and it actually makes a lot more sense than the alternative.<\/span><\/p>\n

For one thing, the original backdrop to the eucharist involved the absence of a physical presence in the Passover elements:<\/span><\/p>\n

That the bread \u2018is\u2019 his body means that it \u2018represents\u2019 it; we should interpret his words here no more literally than the disciples would have taken the normal words of the Passover liturgy, related to Deuteronomy 16:3\u00a0(cf. Stauffer 1960:117): \u2018This is the bread of affliction which our ancestors ate when they came from the land of Egypt.\u2019 (By no stretch of the imagination did anyone suppose that they were re-eating the very bread the Israelites had eaten in the wilderness.) Those who ate of this bread participated by commemoration in Jesus\u2019 affliction in the same manner that those who ate the Passover commemorated in the deliverance of their ancestors\u2026.M. Pesah. 10:6 uses the Passover wine as a metaphor for the blood of the covenant in\u00a0Ex. 24:8\u2033. (Craig Keener, A<\/em> Commentary On The Gospel Of Matthew<\/em> [Grand Rapids, Michigan: Eerdmans, 1999], 631, n. 27 on 631)<\/span><\/p><\/blockquote>\n

The problem with this commentary is what I pointed out in my previous reply to Jason, which was devoted to the great eucharistic discourse<\/a>: John 6. Was Jesus teaching only<\/em><\/strong> that \u201cbread of life\u201d was simply metaphor for belief in Him and that there is no physical and sacramental substantial bodily presence in the Eucharist?<\/p>\n

No; as I demonstrated in that article, both<\/em> things are true: He used a metaphor for belief and faith in Him (\u201cI am the bread of life; he who comes to me shall not hunger, and he who believes in me shall never thirst\u201d: Jn 6:35, RSV), but also<\/em> made it clear that He was talking about His literal Body and Blood<\/em> (in a supernatural sacramental sense; not the \u201ccannibalistic\u201d sense):<\/p>\n

John 6:51<\/strong> . . . the\u00a0bread\u00a0which I shall give for the life of the world is my\u00a0flesh.<\/span><\/p>\n

John 6:54<\/strong> . . . he who\u00a0eats\u00a0my\u00a0flesh\u00a0and\u00a0drinks\u00a0my\u00a0blood has eternal life, . . .<\/p>\n

John 6:56<\/strong> He who\u00a0eats\u00a0my\u00a0flesh\u00a0and\u00a0drinks\u00a0my\u00a0blood\u00a0abides in me, and I in him.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

Secondly, Biblical precedent gives us reason to conclude that no physical transformation has occurred if there\u2019s an absence of physical evidence of such a transformation. For example, in John 2, Jesus didn\u2019t change the water into wine under the appearance of remaining water. He didn\u2019t heal lepers and blind men under the appearance of their remaining leprous and blind. Physical miracles produced the sort of corresponding physical evidence you\u2019d expect. The absence of such evidence in the context of the eucharist is most reasonably taken as implying the absence of such a physical transformation.<\/span><\/p>\n

This is untrue as well. Jesus had a body after His resurrection (and He encouraged His disciples to touch Him, including His wounds, to establish this fact), but it was a glorified<\/em> body. He could, for example, pass through walls in a way that we normally deem to be physically impossible (yet which modern quantum physics actually claims is entirely<\/em> possible). See John 20:19 . . .<\/p>\n

Now, one could say that the \u201cphysical evidence\u201d<\/span> (I suppose) was His passing through the wall of the house, but how is that \u201cphysical\u201d in an empirical sense? As far as the disciples were concerned, Jesus still had a normal physical body. He even ate with them. For that matter, how would someone \u201cphysically\u201d prove that Jesus was God, even before He was resurrected? By looking at His cells in a microscope? There was no way to do that. The incarnation has to be received with faith as a supernatural miracle. So why does Jason demand so much more<\/em> of the Eucharist?<\/p>\n

Therefore, \u201cBiblical precedent\u201d indeed<\/em> \u201cgives us reason to conclude\u201d<\/span> that a \u201cphysical transformation has occurred\u201d<\/span> in the \u201cabsence of physical evidence of such a transformation.\u201d The truth is the opposite<\/em> of what Jason claims. And it is an analogy to transubstantiation. Moreover,<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span>\u00a0this is not the only<\/em> biblical example:<\/p>\n

Exodus 13:21<\/strong>\u00a0And the LORD went before them by day in a pillar of cloud to lead them along the way, and by night in a pillar of fire to give them light, that they might travel by day and by night; (cf. 14:24; Num 14:14; Neh 9:12, 19)<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

Note what is happening here. We\u2019re talking about actual clouds (a form of water) and fire, which \u201cconsist[s] primarily of carbon dioxide, water vapor, oxygen and nitrogen\u201d (Wikipedia, \u201cFire\u201d<\/a>). Yet God is somehow \u201cin\u201d both of them (so much so that the ancient Hebrews would worship God facing this cloud: Ex 33:10). How? How could one tell the difference between a regular old cloud or a fire and the ones that God was \u201cin\u201d?<\/p>\n

They couldn\u2019t. And no one could today, either, if God did that again. The only difference is that God said<\/em> <\/strong>He was in both, in particular circumstances when both formed a \u201cpillar.\u201d But that\u2019s not physical<\/em> proof. It\u2019s revelation<\/em>. And it is exactly the same, analogously, as what we have in the Eucharist (substance changing without the accidents or appearances changing).<\/p>\n

With regard to fire with God specially \u201cin\u201d it, we also have the burning bush (Ex 3:2-6), which is not only fire, but also called an \u201cangel of the Lord\u201d (Ex 3:2), yet also \u201cGod\u201d (3:4, 6, 11, 13-16, 18; 4:5, 7-8) and \u201cthe LORD\u201d (3:7, 16, 18; 4:2, 4-6, 10-11, 14) interchangeably. Also, the Bible states: \u201cMount Sinai was wrapped in smoke, because the LORD descended upon it in fire\u201d (Ex 19:18).<\/p>\n

Next question? Jason and Protestants generally want to \u201cargue Bible\u201d? As usual, I\u2019m running circles around him giving relevant Bible passages, whereas he mostly sits there and cynically speculates out of his own head about all kinds of things. He doesn\u2019t ground<\/em> his arguments in the Bible as I do. He claims<\/em> he is doing so but doesn\u2019t demonstrate<\/em> it. He talks<\/em> about supposed lack of \u201cbiblical precedent\u201d while I prove<\/em> that precedent exists that demolishes his contentions (mere traditions of men).<\/p>\n

Lastly, scripture teaches us that Jesus is to be absent for a while (Matthew 24:23-27,\u00a0Mark 14:7,\u00a0John 14:2-3,\u00a014:28,\u00a0Acts 1:11,\u00a03:21). He\u2019s still spiritually present, and you have to allow for exceptions to the generalities in the passages I just cited (e.g., Jesus\u2019 appearance to Paul on the road to Damascus, which seems to have been a physical appearance, like the other resurrection appearances). But a belief in Jesus\u2019 physical presence in the eucharist would have him physically present\u00a0frequently<\/i>, if not all of the time or the large majority of the time.<\/span><\/p>\n

When discussing the eucharist, Paul refers to how it proclaims Jesus\u2019 death\u00a0until he comes<\/i>\u00a0(1 Corinthians 11:26). That sort of language makes more sense if Jesus is physically absent, but will return physically in the future. It makes less sense if he\u2019s continually physically present, but will also come physically in some other sense in the future. Much the same can be said about Paul\u2019s comments on being \u201cabsent from the Lord\u201d in\u00a02 Corinthians 5:6\u00a0(see, also,\u00a0Philippians 1:23,\u00a01 Thessalonians 4:17).<\/span><\/p>\n

This is category confusion on Jason\u2019s part. There are five senses in which we can refer to Jesus being \u201cpresent\u201d with us on earth:<\/p>\n

1) His time spent on earth as a physical man<\/strong>, for about 33 years, from His birth to His crucifixion, resurrection, post-resurrection appearances, and ascension. [physical]<\/p>\n

2) The indwelling<\/strong>: an attribute He shares with the Father and the Holy Spirit.\u00a0In the same Last Supper Discourse (John 14-17) Jesus referred to He Himself (and God the Father) being \u201cin\u201d us [non-material \/ as a spirit]:<\/span>
\n<\/span><\/p>\n

John 14:18<\/strong> . . . I will come to you. (cf.\u00a0 14:16-17)<\/span><\/div>\n
*<\/div>\n
John 14:20<\/strong> . . . I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you.<\/div>\n
*<\/div>\n
John 14:23<\/strong> . . . my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.<\/div>\n
*<\/div>\n
John 15:5 <\/strong>. . . He who abides in me, and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit . . .<\/div>\n
*<\/div>\n
John 17:23\u00a0<\/strong>I in them, and thou in me, . . .<\/div>\n<\/blockquote>\n
\n
3) In the sense that He is (as God) omnipresent<\/strong> [non-material \/ as a spirit]<\/span>:<\/div>\n
*<\/div>\n
Matthew 18:20<\/strong> For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them.<\/div>\n
*<\/div>\n
Matthew 28:20<\/strong> . . .\u00a0 I am with you always, to the close of the age.<\/div>\n
*<\/div>\n
Ephesians 1:22-23\u00a0<\/b>\u2026the church, [23] which is his body, the fulness of him who fills all in all.<\/div>\n
*<\/div>\n
Colossians 3:11\u00a0<\/b>\u2026Christ is all, and in all.<\/div>\n<\/blockquote>\n
\n
4) Supernatural eucharistic presence<\/strong>: Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity [spiritual and sacramentally \/ miraculously physical and substantial]<\/div>\n
*<\/div>\n
5) After His return to earth as a physical man[-God] with a glorified body at the Second Coming<\/strong> [physical].<\/div>\n<\/blockquote>\n
Now let\u2019s look at Jason\u2019s specific argument:<\/div>\n
\n
1 Corinthians 11:26<\/strong> For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord\u2019s death until he comes.<\/div>\n<\/blockquote>\n
This is clearly referring to the Second Coming, or #5 above. So we can speak in terms of that being in the future, and His time living and teaching on the earth being in the past, while the senses of presence #2-4 are ongoing<\/em> in the interim period. No contradiction! It\u2019s just Jason\u2019s characteristic lack of making crucial distinctions.<\/div>\n
*<\/div>\n
Paul\u2019s being \u201cabsent from the Lord\u201d or \u201caway from the Lord\u201d (2 Cor 5:6, RSV) is a sixth kind of presence<\/em> of Jesus: not on earth but in heaven. It\u2019s clearly what Paul is referring to here and in 5:8: \u201caway from the body and at home with the Lord.\u201d We also know this from context. 5:10 refers to appearing before \u201cthe judgment seat of Christ.\u201d This simply has nothing to do with eucharistic presence at all. It\u2019s a non sequitur<\/em>.<\/div>\n
*<\/div>\n
Philippians 1:23 is in the same sense: \u201cMy desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better.\u201d He\u2019s talking about being in heaven with God, like he did in 1 Corinthians 13:12: \u201cFor now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face.\u201d 1 Thessalonians refers to the time of the Second Coming and being with Jesus thereafter. It\u2019s all irrelevant to the matter of eucharistic presence.<\/div>\n
*<\/div>\n
An especially significant passage in this context is\u00a0Mark 14:7. The surrounding context involves the Passover and the Last Supper. Jesus is anointed by a woman and makes the comment in verse 7 about how they won\u2019t always have him around to do good to him as that woman did, whereas they\u2019ll always have the poor around to do good to them. The passage refers to how the woman has anointed his\u00a0body<\/i>, and he refers to how she\u2019s prepared him for\u00a0burial<\/i>. The focus is on the physical, especially Jesus\u2019 body. What comes between\u00a0Mark 14:7\u00a0and the burial? The events commemorated in communion. So, those events are included in how the woman has done good to Jesus. In fact,\u00a0as I\u2019ve documented elsewhere, Jesus\u2019 burial was a prominent theme in early Christianity, often referred to in gospel summaries, baptism, etc. The implication of Jesus\u2019 comment in\u00a0Mark 14:7\u00a0is that doing good to him bodily in that context isn\u2019t something they\u2019ll always be able to do. Yet, that\u2019s what Catholics claim to do frequently in communion. They honor Jesus\u2019 body in communion in various ways, with altars, monstrances, church services, etc., worship him in that context, and so on.<\/span><\/div>\n
*<\/div>\n
This is a silly, frivolous argument. Jesus is here obviously referring to His presence in the sense of #1 above. Jason is foolishly mixing up categories.<\/div>\n
*<\/div>\n
If the physical presence of Christ in the eucharist is as significant as Catholics make it out to be, and they experience it as often as they claim to, then it\u2019s harder to make sense of these New Testament references to the absence of Jesus.<\/span><\/div>\n
*<\/div>\n
Not in the slightest. One simply has to be aware of the different kinds of presence involved. Jason isn\u2019t, and so he is out to sea, and makes\u00a0 irrelevant, desperate arguments as a result.<\/div>\n
*<\/div>\n
And keep in mind that the issue isn\u2019t whether it\u2019s possible to reconcile these passages with the Catholic view. Rather, the issue is which view makes the most sense of the evidence.<\/span><\/div>\n
*<\/div>\n
Exactly! The Catholic view does, and the low church Protestant view does not, as repeatedly shown.<\/div>\n
*<\/div>\n
There\u2019s no shame in believing in a real absence.<\/span><\/div>\n
*<\/div>\n
There\u2019s a ton<\/em> of shame, because it\u2019s blasphemous (rejecting Jesus\u2019 teaching) and an adoption of what the heretical sects throughout history have believed, rather than the unbroken history of what the apostles, early Church, Catholicism, Orthodoxy, and high church Protestantism (Anglicans, Lutherans \u2014 starting with Martin Luther himself \u2013, some Methodists and others) have believed. Falsehood comes from the devil, and it prevents Christian believers from receiving all the grace and blessing that God has for them.<\/div>\n
*<\/div>\n
In fact, that view is more consistent with the original context of the eucharist, the physical evidence we have pertaining to the eucharist and how that evidence relates to the history of Biblical miracles, and the Biblical affirmation of the absence of Jesus.<\/span><\/div>\n
*<\/div>\n
Not at all, as shown. Jason, in all likelihood (judging from longstanding history) will not respond to any of this, and I say that he cannot sensibly do so even if he were willing to. Any other Protestant is welcome to take a shot at it. Be my guest!<\/div>\n
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***<\/p>\n<\/div>\n

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If so, please seriously consider a much-needed financial contribution. I\u2019m always in need of more funds (and am in\u00a0no<\/em>\u00a0danger of cracking the Fortune 500). 1 December 2021 will be my 20th anniversary as a\u00a0full-time Catholic apologist<\/a>, and February 2022, the 25th anniversary of my blog.<\/div>\n
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*<\/div>\n<\/div>\n
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***<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n

Photo credit: <\/strong>The Incredulity of Thomas\u00a0<\/i>(1622), by\u00a0Hendrick ter Brugghen (1588-1629)\u00a0<\/span>[public domain \/\u00a0Wikimedia Commons<\/a>]<\/p>\n

***<\/p>\n

Summary<\/em>: Anti-Catholic Jason Engwer takes one of his groundless potshots against Catholicism: this time against transubstantiation, with a \u201creal absence\u201d argument.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n

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Including Biblical Evidence of Analogous Miracles of a Supernatural Change of a Substance Minus Outward Physical Evidence\u00a0 Jason Engwer\u00a0is a Protestant and anti-Catholic apologist, who runs the\u00a0Tribalblogue site. I am responding to his article,\u00a0You Ought To Believe In A Real Absence\u00a0(7-29-19). His words will be in blue. ***** Roman Catholics (and others) often criticize those […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2331,"featured_media":61261,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[231,58],"tags":[595,365,364,1500,1385,15332,2421,1533,15335,384,650,417,713,2337,385],"class_list":["post-61259","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-anti-catholicism","category-eucharist-liturgy","tag-consecration","tag-holy-communion","tag-holy-eucharist","tag-jason-engwer","tag-john-6","tag-john-6-eucharist","tag-last-supper","tag-lords-supper","tag-real-absence","tag-real-presence","tag-sacramentalism","tag-sacrifice-of-the-mass","tag-substantial-presence","tag-the-mass","tag-transubstantiation"],"yoast_head":"\nRefuting Jason Engwer's "Real Absence" Argument Refuting Jason Engwer's "Real Absence" Argument<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" 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particular since 1991 (full-time since December 2001). Formerly a campus missionary, as a Protestant, Dave was received into the Catholic Church in February 1991, by the late, well-known catechist and theologian, Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave\u2019s articles have appeared in many influential Catholic periodicals, including \\\"This Rock\\\" (now called \\\"Catholic Answers Magazine\\\"), \\\"Envoy Magazine\\\" (Patrick Madrid), \\\"The Catholic Answer,\\\" \\\"The Coming Home Journal,\\\" \\\"Gilbert Magazine\\\" (American Chesterton Society), and \\\"The Latin Mass.\\\" He also writes a featured column for every issue of \\\"The Michigan Catholic\\\": published by the archdiocese of Detroit, and was editor for most of the apologetics tracts published by the St. Paul Street Evangelization apostolate. Dave\u2019s apologetics and writing apostolate was the subject of a feature article in the May 2002 issue of \\\"Envoy Magazine.\\\" He served as the staff moderator at the Internet discussion forum for The Coming Home Network, from 2007-2010. Dave has been interviewed on many nationally syndicated Catholic radio shows, including \\\"Catholic Answers Live\\\" (twice), \\\"Faith and Family Live\\\" (Steve Wood), \\\"Kresta in the Afternoon,\\\" \\\"Son Rise Morning Show,\\\" \\\"Catholic Connection\\\" (Teresa Tomeo), and \\\"The Catholics Next Door.\\\" His large and popular website, \\\"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism,\\\" was online from March 1997 to March 2007, and received the 1998 Catholic Website of the Year award from \\\"Envoy Magazine.\\\" His blog of the same name (now transferred to Patheos), begun in February 2004, contains more than 1,500 papers, at least 500 debates or dialogues, and over 50 distinct \\\"index\\\" web pages. Unsolicited correspondence has indicated many hundreds of conversions (or returns) to the Catholic faith as a result, by God's grace, of these writings. Dave's conversion story was published in the bestselling book \\\"Surprised by Truth\\\" (edited by Patrick Madrid; San Diego: Basilica Press, 1994). Sophia Institute Press has published six of his books: \\\"A Biblical Defense of Catholicism\\\" (Foreword by Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J., 1996 \/ 2003), \\\"The Catholic Verses\\\" (2004), \\\"The One-Minute Apologist\\\" (2007), \\\"Bible Proofs for Catholic Truths\\\" (2009), \\\"The Quotable Newman\\\" (editor: 2012), and \\\"Proving the Catholic Faith is Biblical\\\" (2015). He is co-author (with Dr. Paul Thigpen) of the inserts for \\\"The New Catholic Answer Bible\\\" (Our Sunday Visitor: 2005), and editor for \\\"The Wisdom of Mr. Chesterton: The Very Best Quotes, Quips, and Cracks from the Pen of G. K. Chesterton\\\" (Saint Benedict Press \/ TAN Books: 2009). \\\"100 Biblical Arguments Against Sola Scriptura\\\" was published by Catholic Answers in May 2012. His \\\"Quotable Wesley\\\" compilation was published by (Protestant \/ Wesleyan publisher) Beacon Hill Press in April 2014. Several of his 49 books are bestsellers in their field. Dave maintains a popular personal Facebook page, a Facebook author page, and has a Twitter account as well. He offers almost all of his books in e-book form on his own Biblical Catholicism site (http:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/), at a permanent deep discount: only $2.99 for ePub, mobi, and AZW, and $1.99 for PDF. His writing has been enthusiastically endorsed or recommended by many leading Catholic apologists, authors, and priests, including Dr. Scott Hahn, Fr. Peter M. J. Stravinskas, Marcus Grodi, Patrick Madrid, Steve Ray, Tim Staples, Devin Rose, Mike Aquilina, Al Kresta, Karl Keating, Fr. Dwight Longenecker, Brandon Vogt, Marcellino D'Ambrosio, and Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave has been happily married to his wife Judy since October 1984. They have three sons and a daughter, and reside in southeast Michigan (metro Detroit).\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/author\/davearmstrong\"}]}<\/script>\n<!-- \/ Yoast SEO plugin. -->","yoast_head_json":{"title":"Refuting Jason Engwer's \"Real Absence\" Argument Refuting Jason Engwer's \"Real Absence\" Argument","description":"Including Biblical Evidence of Analogous Miracles of a Supernatural Change of a Substance Minus Outward Physical Evidence\u00a0 Jason Engwer\u00a0is a Protestant Anti-Catholic Jason Engwer takes one of his groundless potshots against Catholicism: this time against transubstantiation, with a \"real absence\" argument.","robots":{"index":"index","follow":"follow","max-snippet":"max-snippet:-1","max-image-preview":"max-image-preview:large","max-video-preview":"max-video-preview:-1"},"canonical":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2021\/11\/refuting-jason-engwers-real-absence-argument.html","og_locale":"en_US","og_type":"article","og_title":"Refuting Jason Engwer's \"Real Absence\" Argument Refuting Jason Engwer's \"Real Absence\" Argument","og_description":"Including Biblical Evidence of Analogous Miracles of a Supernatural Change of a Substance Minus Outward Physical Evidence\u00a0 Jason Engwer\u00a0is a Protestant Anti-Catholic Jason Engwer takes one of his groundless potshots against Catholicism: this time against transubstantiation, with a \"real absence\" argument.","og_url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2021\/11\/refuting-jason-engwers-real-absence-argument.html","og_site_name":"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism","article_published_time":"2021-11-18T20:27:32+00:00","article_modified_time":"2021-12-01T20:03:23+00:00","og_image":[{"width":768,"height":603,"url":"https:\/\/wp-media.patheos.com\/blogs\/sites\/572\/2021\/11\/DoubtingThomas2.jpg","type":"image\/jpeg"}],"author":"Dave Armstrong","twitter_card":"summary_large_image","twitter_misc":{"Written by":"Dave Armstrong","Est. reading time":"12 minutes"},"schema":{"@context":"https:\/\/schema.org","@graph":[{"@type":"WebPage","@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2021\/11\/refuting-jason-engwers-real-absence-argument.html","url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2021\/11\/refuting-jason-engwers-real-absence-argument.html","name":"Refuting Jason Engwer's \"Real Absence\" Argument Refuting Jason Engwer's \"Real Absence\" Argument","isPartOf":{"@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/#website"},"datePublished":"2021-11-18T20:27:32+00:00","dateModified":"2021-12-01T20:03:23+00:00","author":{"@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/#\/schema\/person\/471eaa20e441eca4bb1ea50393cf632e"},"description":"Including Biblical Evidence of Analogous Miracles of a Supernatural Change of a Substance Minus Outward Physical Evidence\u00a0 Jason Engwer\u00a0is a Protestant Anti-Catholic Jason Engwer takes one of his groundless potshots against Catholicism: this time against transubstantiation, with a \"real absence\" argument.","breadcrumb":{"@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2021\/11\/refuting-jason-engwers-real-absence-argument.html#breadcrumb"},"inLanguage":"en-US","potentialAction":[{"@type":"ReadAction","target":["https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2021\/11\/refuting-jason-engwers-real-absence-argument.html"]}]},{"@type":"BreadcrumbList","@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2021\/11\/refuting-jason-engwers-real-absence-argument.html#breadcrumb","itemListElement":[{"@type":"ListItem","position":1,"name":"Home","item":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong"},{"@type":"ListItem","position":2,"name":"Refuting Jason Engwer’s “Real Absence” Argument"}]},{"@type":"WebSite","@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/#website","url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/","name":"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism","description":"Catholic biblical apologetics","potentialAction":[{"@type":"SearchAction","target":{"@type":"EntryPoint","urlTemplate":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/?s={search_term_string}"},"query-input":"required name=search_term_string"}],"inLanguage":"en-US"},{"@type":"Person","@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/#\/schema\/person\/471eaa20e441eca4bb1ea50393cf632e","name":"Dave Armstrong","image":{"@type":"ImageObject","inLanguage":"en-US","@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/#\/schema\/person\/image\/","url":"https:\/\/secure.gravatar.com\/avatar\/820e6db89734ae7a9e5dac8d498f5ac7?s=96&d=mm&r=g","contentUrl":"https:\/\/secure.gravatar.com\/avatar\/820e6db89734ae7a9e5dac8d498f5ac7?s=96&d=mm&r=g","caption":"Dave Armstrong"},"description":"Dave Armstrong is a Catholic author and apologist, who has been actively proclaiming and defending Christianity since 1981, and Catholicism in particular since 1991 (full-time since December 2001). Formerly a campus missionary, as a Protestant, Dave was received into the Catholic Church in February 1991, by the late, well-known catechist and theologian, Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave\u2019s articles have appeared in many influential Catholic periodicals, including \"This Rock\" (now called \"Catholic Answers Magazine\"), \"Envoy Magazine\" (Patrick Madrid), \"The Catholic Answer,\" \"The Coming Home Journal,\" \"Gilbert Magazine\" (American Chesterton Society), and \"The Latin Mass.\" He also writes a featured column for every issue of \"The Michigan Catholic\": published by the archdiocese of Detroit, and was editor for most of the apologetics tracts published by the St. Paul Street Evangelization apostolate. Dave\u2019s apologetics and writing apostolate was the subject of a feature article in the May 2002 issue of \"Envoy Magazine.\" He served as the staff moderator at the Internet discussion forum for The Coming Home Network, from 2007-2010. Dave has been interviewed on many nationally syndicated Catholic radio shows, including \"Catholic Answers Live\" (twice), \"Faith and Family Live\" (Steve Wood), \"Kresta in the Afternoon,\" \"Son Rise Morning Show,\" \"Catholic Connection\" (Teresa Tomeo), and \"The Catholics Next Door.\" His large and popular website, \"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism,\" was online from March 1997 to March 2007, and received the 1998 Catholic Website of the Year award from \"Envoy Magazine.\" His blog of the same name (now transferred to Patheos), begun in February 2004, contains more than 1,500 papers, at least 500 debates or dialogues, and over 50 distinct \"index\" web pages. Unsolicited correspondence has indicated many hundreds of conversions (or returns) to the Catholic faith as a result, by God's grace, of these writings. Dave's conversion story was published in the bestselling book \"Surprised by Truth\" (edited by Patrick Madrid; San Diego: Basilica Press, 1994). Sophia Institute Press has published six of his books: \"A Biblical Defense of Catholicism\" (Foreword by Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J., 1996 \/ 2003), \"The Catholic Verses\" (2004), \"The One-Minute Apologist\" (2007), \"Bible Proofs for Catholic Truths\" (2009), \"The Quotable Newman\" (editor: 2012), and \"Proving the Catholic Faith is Biblical\" (2015). He is co-author (with Dr. Paul Thigpen) of the inserts for \"The New Catholic Answer Bible\" (Our Sunday Visitor: 2005), and editor for \"The Wisdom of Mr. Chesterton: The Very Best Quotes, Quips, and Cracks from the Pen of G. K. Chesterton\" (Saint Benedict Press \/ TAN Books: 2009). \"100 Biblical Arguments Against Sola Scriptura\" was published by Catholic Answers in May 2012. His \"Quotable Wesley\" compilation was published by (Protestant \/ Wesleyan publisher) Beacon Hill Press in April 2014. Several of his 49 books are bestsellers in their field. Dave maintains a popular personal Facebook page, a Facebook author page, and has a Twitter account as well. He offers almost all of his books in e-book form on his own Biblical Catholicism site (http:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/), at a permanent deep discount: only $2.99 for ePub, mobi, and AZW, and $1.99 for PDF. His writing has been enthusiastically endorsed or recommended by many leading Catholic apologists, authors, and priests, including Dr. Scott Hahn, Fr. Peter M. J. Stravinskas, Marcus Grodi, Patrick Madrid, Steve Ray, Tim Staples, Devin Rose, Mike Aquilina, Al Kresta, Karl Keating, Fr. Dwight Longenecker, Brandon Vogt, Marcellino D'Ambrosio, and Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave has been happily married to his wife Judy since October 1984. They have three sons and a daughter, and reside in southeast Michigan (metro Detroit).","url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/author\/davearmstrong"}]}},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/61259","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/2331"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=61259"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/61259\/revisions"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/61261"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=61259"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=61259"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=61259"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}