{"id":61598,"date":"2021-11-23T12:56:30","date_gmt":"2021-11-23T16:56:30","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/?p=61598"},"modified":"2026-06-05T23:59:43","modified_gmt":"2026-06-06T03:59:43","slug":"dialogue-institutional-jewish-opposition-to-jesus","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2021\/11\/dialogue-institutional-jewish-opposition-to-jesus.html","title":{"rendered":"Dialogue: Institutional Jewish Opposition to Jesus"},"content":{"rendered":"\n<\/head>

Was it Based on His Claim to be the Messiah, or Because He Also Claimed to be God? Also, Further Discussion on Mary\u2019s Knowledge (or Lack Thereof) of His Divinity<\/strong><\/p>\n

\"\"<\/a><\/p>\n

Dr. Lydia McGrew<\/a> is a philosopher and Anglican author of the wonderful books\u00a0Hidden in Plain View: Undesigned Coincidences in the Gospels and Acts<\/span><\/a><\/em> (2017),\u00a0<\/span>The Mirror or the Mask: Liberating the Gospels from Literary Devices<\/span><\/a><\/em> (2019), and\u00a0<\/span>The Eye of the Beholder: The Gospel of John as Historical Reportage<\/span><\/a><\/em> (2021). We were discussing my related article, \u201cMary Did You Know\u201d Jesus Was God? (She Knew it Based on the Annunciation, and Various Events Concerning His Birth and Infancy)<\/a> (11-22-21), in a combox on my Facebook page<\/a>. Her words will be in blue.<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

*****<\/p>\n

(I saw a comment of yours about this song). [explaining why I tagged her]<\/p>\n

I kinda don\u2019t mind the song. I don\u2019t think Catholics should get quite so offended by it, truth to tell.<\/span> After all, even on Catholic doctrine she wasn\u2019t omniscient, so she could have grown in her knowledge over time.<\/span><\/p>\n

And it\u2019s also a beautiful song, by the way. I remember when one of my girls was little, reading her the lyric, \u201cWhen you kissed your little baby, you kissed the face of God,\u201d and she went, \u201cWow,\u201d or something like that. I think it really brought the deity of Jesus and the wonder if the incarnation home to her, at least for that moment.<\/span><\/p>\n

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I don\u2019t mind the song whatsoever. But it seems to me that the lyricist could do what I just did and do a little biblical research; look over Matthew 1-2 and Luke 1-2 (even if just out of curiosity), where it appears (to me anyway) that Mary \u2014 via several special revelations \u2014 knew He was God at His birth and before.<\/div>\n
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Plenty of Catholics are also ignorant of the fact that Jesus knew Who He was as a child as well. The movie Young Messiah<\/em>\u00a0contained this Nestorian-like christological error.<\/div>\n<\/div>\n
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I have my own views that are probably different from yours about whether Jews at the time expected the Messiah to be God. I think they didn\u2019t. I think that\u2019s why they tried to stone Jesus when he claimed to be God, even though they were fine with his saying he was the Messiah. So Mary herself might not have known that he was God until later, despite the angel\u2019s announcement, which would have led her to believe he was the Messiah. That doesn\u2019t seem to me improbable at all, based on biblical knowledge.<\/span><\/div>\n
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Many Jews in Jesus\u2019 time certainly didn\u2019t think Messiah would be God (let alone be crucified). I did a huge study about all that almost 40 years ago. I don\u2019t think your scenario is biblically impossible. But I think very soon, if not from the Annunciation, God revealed to her that her Son was God incarnate, and things like the magi worshiping Him were explicit indications of it.<\/div>\n
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Where do you see that they didn\u2019t care about His claiming to be the Messiah? I don\u2019t recall seeing that. I provided three passages where Jesus was asked whether He was the Messiah (Christ) and when He affirmed it, that\u2019s when He was accused of blasphemy and they sought to kill Him.<\/div>\n
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I would argue it by contrasting John 10:24 with John 10:30-31. I don\u2019t think John 10:24 was intended as a sneaky gotcha<\/em>. They seem to want a messianic declaration. But when he claims to be one with the father, they try to stone him. I would also argue it from the attempt to make him king in John 6\u2013though that is a Galilean crowd (and the crowd in John 10 is in Jerusalem), that indicates a messianic desire, not an opposition to anyone\u2019s statement that he was the Messiah. I would also argue it from the rulers\u2019 sending messengers to John the Baptist in John 1:19-20, which seems to imply that they asked if he was the Messiah. Again, this seems like a request for information, not like anyone claiming to be the Messiah would be thought to be a blasphemer. And finally, I argue it from common sense: If the Jews desired<\/em> the Messiah and his coming (and they certainly did) it would be extremely<\/em>\u00a0strange for them to consider any messianic claimant to be a blasphemer merely in virtue of his claiming to be the Messiah!<\/span><\/div>\n
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These are very interesting arguments. I don\u2019t think I\u2019ve ever thought about it this way (minus the common people, who seemed far more open to it). Granting this opinion, the question then becomes: \u201cwhy did they immediately want to kill Him and think He was a blasphemer at His trial when He plainly said He was the Messiah?\u201d<\/div>\n
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Well, as you have alluded to, it was likely because He was also claiming to be God as well as Messiah, and plausibly because (additionally) He roundly rebuked the Jewish leaders (Pharisees, scribes, etc.), argued with them about theology and the application of the Law, and was doing all His miracles and things like forgiving sins and accepting worship. Maybe they suspected a political \/ power motive as well, given what happened on Palm Sunday and maybe had suspicions that He was collaborating with the Zealots (from whom two of His disciples came, as I recall).<\/div>\n
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That would make the opposition at the trial based on the fact that He<\/em> (the supposed pretender and madman claiming to be God) claimed to be the Messiah, as opposed to opposition to anyone<\/em>\u00a0making the claim.<\/div>\n
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Yes, remember that by then they had against him his statements in John 8, John 10, and elsewhere indicating that he was claiming deity. So whatever he said at his Sanhedrin trial would have been understood against that background. Also, though I don\u2019t know how it would have gone in Aramaic (if that\u2019s what they were speaking) in Mark\u2019s wording of the trial, when they ask him if he is the son of God, he replies with \u201cEgo eimi\u201d [i.e., \u201cI am\u201d: hearkening back to God\u2019s language at the burning bush with Moses]<\/span> which may be another indication of claiming deity right there in the trial.<\/span><\/div>\n
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I think you may have persuaded me of this outlook. I still think, though, that God made a special revelation to Mary, so that she knew and accepted the whole truth of the incarnation, perhaps at the Annunciation and no later than Simeon\u2019s pronouncements. That seems more plausible to me, just as your scenario of views concerning the Messiah and Jesus among the Jewish leaders now does.<\/div>\n
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After all, of the seven things I listed suggesting that Mary knew all this early on, one communication was from the angel Gabriel, then two from \u201can angel of the Lord (to Joseph in a dream and to the shepherds at the first Christmas). Joseph presumably shared this with her, and Scripture says that the shepherds did. Then we have the prophetess Anna (so now four instances of special revelation), and in addition, Elizabeth, Simeon, and the magi (to whom God seemed to be strongly speaking as well).<\/div>\n<\/div>\n
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Gabriel called Him \u201cthe Son of the Most High.\u201d Elizabeth addressed Mary as \u201cthe mother of my Lord\u201d [probably Kurios<\/em> without looking]. An angel told Joseph in a dream that Jesus \u201cwill save his people from their sins\u201d (which only God can do; the OT clearly teaches that God alone is the \u201csavior\u201d). An angel told the shepherds that He was both the \u201cSavior\u201d and \u201cChrist the Lord\u201d: thus combining Savior, Messiah, and Lord (Kurios<\/em>) all in one. Simeon focuses on Jesus as Messiah but does say \u201cmine eyes have seen thy salvation\u201d too.<\/div>\n<\/div>\n
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I think this is more than enough (combined with almost certainly more information not recorded in Scripture, such as, e.g., whatever the prophetess Anna and the magi said to Mary and Joseph) to communicate to Mary that He was God in the flesh. Whether that was a radically new idea at the time I don\u2019t know. If it was known before, the notion had largely been lost, as I understand it. But it looks like to me that what she learned was far more than merely Jesus being the Messiah (especially His being called \u201csavior\u201d and \u201cLord\u201d).<\/div>\n
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I haven\u2019t persuaded you about Mary\u2019s \u201cfuller\u201d knowledge, huh?<\/div>\n
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[if Lydia makes further response, I will add it]<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n
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PayPal donations<\/a>\u00a0are the easiest: just send to my email address: apologistdave@gmail.com. You\u2019ll see the term \u201cCatholic Used Book Service\u201d, which is my old side-business. To learn about the different methods of contributing, including 100% tax deduction, etc., see my page:\u00a0About Catholic Apologist Dave Armstrong \/ Donation Information<\/a>.\u00a0Thanks a million<\/em><\/strong>\u00a0from the bottom of my heart!<\/div>\n
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Photo credit: <\/strong>Jesus\u00a0in the House of\u00a0Annas\u00a0<\/i>(1803), byJos\u00e9 de Madrazo y Agudo (1781-1859)\u00a0<\/span>[public domain \/\u00a0Wikimedia Commons<\/a>]<\/p>\n

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Summary<\/em>: Stimulating dialogue with Anglican philosopher & author Lydia McGrew, about Jewish opposition to Jesus, and whether Mary knew He was God very early on.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<\/body><\/html>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

Was it Based on His Claim to be the Messiah, or Because He Also Claimed to be God? Also, Further Discussion on Mary\u2019s Knowledge (or Lack Thereof) of His Divinity Dr. Lydia McGrew is a philosopher and Anglican author of the wonderful books\u00a0Hidden in Plain View: Undesigned Coincidences in the Gospels and Acts (2017),\u00a0The Mirror […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2331,"featured_media":61604,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[45,448,172],"tags":[1621,1619,2357,508,467,1058,15361,46,15377,15383,15371,15380,15386,1624,15356,677,2356,680,3185,15374,2838,507,15365,3187,15368,15364,3186,3188,504],"class_list":["post-61598","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-blessed-virgin-mary","category-jews-judaism-old-testament","category-trinitarianism-christology","tag-angel-gabriel","tag-annunciation","tag-blessed-virgin-mary","tag-catholic-mariology","tag-deity-of-christ","tag-divinity-of-christ","tag-elizabeth","tag-immaculate-conception","tag-incarnation-of-jesus","tag-jesus-as-messiah","tag-jewish-leaders-jesus","tag-jewish-messianic-thought","tag-jewish-opposition-to-jesus","tag-joseph","tag-magnificat","tag-marian-doctrines","tag-mariology","tag-mary-mother-of-jesus","tag-marys-knowledge","tag-marys-knowledge-of-jesus-divinity","tag-messiah","tag-mother-of-god","tag-pharisees-jesus","tag-prophetess-anna","tag-sanhedrin-jesus","tag-shepherds-in-the-field","tag-simeon","tag-three-wise-men","tag-virgin-mary"],"yoast_head":"\nDialogue: Institutional Jewish Opposition to Jesus Dialogue: Institutional Jewish Opposition to Jesus<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"Was it Based on His Claim to be the Messiah, or Because He Also Claimed to be God? 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Unsolicited correspondence has indicated many hundreds of conversions (or returns) to the Catholic faith as a result, by God's grace, of these writings. Dave's conversion story was published in the bestselling book \\\"Surprised by Truth\\\" (edited by Patrick Madrid; San Diego: Basilica Press, 1994). Sophia Institute Press has published six of his books: \\\"A Biblical Defense of Catholicism\\\" (Foreword by Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J., 1996 \/ 2003), \\\"The Catholic Verses\\\" (2004), \\\"The One-Minute Apologist\\\" (2007), \\\"Bible Proofs for Catholic Truths\\\" (2009), \\\"The Quotable Newman\\\" (editor: 2012), and \\\"Proving the Catholic Faith is Biblical\\\" (2015). He is co-author (with Dr. Paul Thigpen) of the inserts for \\\"The New Catholic Answer Bible\\\" (Our Sunday Visitor: 2005), and editor for \\\"The Wisdom of Mr. Chesterton: The Very Best Quotes, Quips, and Cracks from the Pen of G. K. 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Dwight Longenecker, Brandon Vogt, Marcellino D'Ambrosio, and Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave has been happily married to his wife Judy since October 1984. They have three sons and a daughter, and reside in southeast Michigan (metro Detroit).\",\"sameAs\":[\"https:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/\",\"https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/dave.armstrong.798\",\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/@LuxVeritatisApologetics\"],\"url\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/author\/davearmstrong\"}]}<\/script>\n<!-- \/ Yoast SEO plugin. -->","yoast_head_json":{"title":"Dialogue: Institutional Jewish Opposition to Jesus Dialogue: Institutional Jewish Opposition to Jesus","description":"Was it Based on His Claim to be the Messiah, or Because He Also Claimed to be God? 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Formerly a campus missionary, as a Protestant, Dave was received into the Catholic Church in February 1991, by the late, well-known catechist and theologian, Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave\u2019s articles have appeared in many influential Catholic periodicals, including \"This Rock\" (now called \"Catholic Answers Magazine\"), \"Envoy Magazine\" (Patrick Madrid), \"The Catholic Answer,\" \"The Coming Home Journal,\" \"Gilbert Magazine\" (American Chesterton Society), and \"The Latin Mass.\" He also writes a featured column for every issue of \"The Michigan Catholic\": published by the archdiocese of Detroit, and was editor for most of the apologetics tracts published by the St. Paul Street Evangelization apostolate. Dave\u2019s apologetics and writing apostolate was the subject of a feature article in the May 2002 issue of \"Envoy Magazine.\" He served as the staff moderator at the Internet discussion forum for The Coming Home Network, from 2007-2010. Dave has been interviewed on many nationally syndicated Catholic radio shows, including \"Catholic Answers Live\" (twice), \"Faith and Family Live\" (Steve Wood), \"Kresta in the Afternoon,\" \"Son Rise Morning Show,\" \"Catholic Connection\" (Teresa Tomeo), and \"The Catholics Next Door.\" His large and popular website, \"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism,\" was online from March 1997 to March 2007, and received the 1998 Catholic Website of the Year award from \"Envoy Magazine.\" His blog of the same name (now transferred to Patheos), begun in February 2004, contains more than 1,500 papers, at least 500 debates or dialogues, and over 50 distinct \"index\" web pages. Unsolicited correspondence has indicated many hundreds of conversions (or returns) to the Catholic faith as a result, by God's grace, of these writings. Dave's conversion story was published in the bestselling book \"Surprised by Truth\" (edited by Patrick Madrid; San Diego: Basilica Press, 1994). Sophia Institute Press has published six of his books: \"A Biblical Defense of Catholicism\" (Foreword by Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J., 1996 \/ 2003), \"The Catholic Verses\" (2004), \"The One-Minute Apologist\" (2007), \"Bible Proofs for Catholic Truths\" (2009), \"The Quotable Newman\" (editor: 2012), and \"Proving the Catholic Faith is Biblical\" (2015). He is co-author (with Dr. Paul Thigpen) of the inserts for \"The New Catholic Answer Bible\" (Our Sunday Visitor: 2005), and editor for \"The Wisdom of Mr. Chesterton: The Very Best Quotes, Quips, and Cracks from the Pen of G. K. Chesterton\" (Saint Benedict Press \/ TAN Books: 2009). \"100 Biblical Arguments Against Sola Scriptura\" was published by Catholic Answers in May 2012. His \"Quotable Wesley\" compilation was published by (Protestant \/ Wesleyan publisher) Beacon Hill Press in April 2014. Several of his 49 books are bestsellers in their field. Dave maintains a popular personal Facebook page, a Facebook author page, and has a Twitter account as well. He offers almost all of his books in e-book form on his own Biblical Catholicism site (http:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/), at a permanent deep discount: only $2.99 for ePub, mobi, and AZW, and $1.99 for PDF. His writing has been enthusiastically endorsed or recommended by many leading Catholic apologists, authors, and priests, including Dr. Scott Hahn, Fr. Peter M. J. Stravinskas, Marcus Grodi, Patrick Madrid, Steve Ray, Tim Staples, Devin Rose, Mike Aquilina, Al Kresta, Karl Keating, Fr. Dwight Longenecker, Brandon Vogt, Marcellino D'Ambrosio, and Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave has been happily married to his wife Judy since October 1984. They have three sons and a daughter, and reside in southeast Michigan (metro Detroit).","sameAs":["https:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/","https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/dave.armstrong.798","https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/@LuxVeritatisApologetics"],"url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/author\/davearmstrong"}]}},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/61598","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/2331"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=61598"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/61598\/revisions"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/61604"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=61598"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=61598"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=61598"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}