{"id":62514,"date":"2022-01-29T12:38:26","date_gmt":"2022-01-29T16:38:26","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/?p=62514"},"modified":"2022-01-29T12:38:26","modified_gmt":"2022-01-29T16:38:26","slug":"dialogue-gospel-writers-knowledge-of-hidden-events","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2022\/01\/dialogue-gospel-writers-knowledge-of-hidden-events.html","title":{"rendered":"Dialogue: Gospel Writers’ Knowledge of “Hidden” Events"},"content":{"rendered":"\n<\/head>

\"\"<\/a><\/p>\n

This came from an exchange with an atheist in the combox of Jonathan MS Pearce\u2019s article, \u201cWhy Matthew\u2019s guards at Jesus\u2019 tomb are so important\u201d<\/a> (1-27-22). The atheist\u2019s words will be in blue<\/span>.<\/p>\n

*****<\/p>\n

I\u2019ve always had problems with so many bible passages that purport to document what happened either in secret or at least unobserved. Jesus praying, for example. It seems unlikely he issued a press release containing the words he used to commune with God.<\/span><\/div>\n
*<\/div>\n
\n
1. Jesus tells a disciple the content of what He prayed.<\/div>\n
*<\/div>\n
2. Said disciple includes it in his Gospel.<\/div>\n<\/blockquote>\n
*<\/div>\n
Or Jesus talking with the Devil: I assume this wasn\u2019t done on a stage, with tickets sold to spectators. So who was there to listen and take shorthand?<\/span><\/div>\n
*<\/div>\n
\n
1. Jesus tells a disciple the content of what He talked about with the devil.<\/div>\n
*<\/div>\n
2. Said disciple includes it in his Gospel.<\/div>\n<\/blockquote>\n
*<\/div>\n
A variation of this would or could be:<\/div>\n
*<\/div>\n
\n
1. Jesus tells a disciple the content of what He prayed \/ talked about with the devil.<\/div>\n
*<\/div>\n
2. Said disciple spreads this information as part of oral tradition and\/or possibly the mysterious source \u201cQ\u201d.<\/div>\n
*<\/div>\n
3. The information later becomes incorporated into one or more of the four Gospels.<\/div>\n
*<\/div>\n<\/blockquote>\n
Not really rocket science there. Jesus was with these disciples for three years day and night. They talked for multiple thousands of hours.<\/div>\n
*<\/div>\n
It\u2019s also supernaturally inspired revelation: not your usual type of literature; so it\u2019s always possible that the writer could receive a direct revelation from God regarding a specific thing.<\/div>\n
*<\/div>\n
But most Christians believe that almost all Scripture was not originated in that way. They simply wrote, and God guided and protected them from writing error.<\/div>\n
*<\/div>\n
Yes, it\u2019s a belief in faith (as all people in effect have, including atheists, who accept \u2014 and must<\/em> accept to think and communicate \u2014 many unproven axioms).<\/div>\n
*<\/div>\n
Seems about as likely as the press release. Do the gospels agree that Jesus appointed a secretary?<\/span><\/div>\n
*<\/div>\n
Yeah, real unlikely and implausible [heavy sarcasm]. He was with them day and night for three years<\/em>. Lots of talking, teaching, communicating. It\u2019s common sense. There is no mystery here.<\/div>\n
*<\/div>\n
In fact, we even have a passage where Jesus revealed that He was praying for one of His disciples, and exactly what<\/em> He was praying for:<\/div>\n
*<\/div>\n
\n
Luke 22:32<\/strong> (RSV) \u201cbut I have prayed for you [Peter] that your faith may not fail; and when you have turned again, strengthen your brethren.\u201d<\/div>\n<\/blockquote>\n
*<\/div>\n
Again, He prayed for them out loud, in John chapter 17 (with all the disciples present at the Last Supper: Jn 13:1-2, 22):<\/div>\n
*<\/div>\n
\n
John 17:7-9<\/strong> Now they know that everything that thou hast given me is from thee; [8] for I have given them the words which thou gavest me, and they have received them and know in truth that I came from thee; and they have believed that thou didst send me. [9] I am praying for them; I am not praying for the world but for those whom thou hast given me, for they are thine;<\/div>\n
*<\/div>\n<\/blockquote>\n
Etc.<\/div>\n
*<\/div>\n
This [Lk 22:32] reads as if the author of Luke witnessed the conversation between Jesus and Peter, in which Jesus relates what he has done (\u201cI have prayed for you\u2026\u201d), whereas the Jesus\/Devil conversations are reported as if the writer witnessed the conversation directly. I don\u2019t see how this inconsistency (along with others) can be taken literally, as they make the whole narrative seem more like a series of supposedly salutary fables.<\/span><\/div>\n
*<\/div>\n
Luke wasn\u2019t one of the twelve disciples, so he would have had to hear this report from Peter himself (which was entirely possible) or from one of the other ten disciples (minus fallen disciple Judas). Or he got wind of a dependable oral tradition that came from Jesus and\/or one or more of the eleven. We know this was precisely his methodology:<\/div>\n
*<\/div>\n
\n
Luke 1:1-4<\/strong> Inasmuch as many have undertaken to compile a narrative of the things which have been accomplished among us, [2] just as they were delivered to us by those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and ministers of the word, [3] it seemed good to me also, having followed all things closely for some time past, to write an orderly account for you, most excellent The-oph\u2019ilus, [4] that you may know the truth concerning the things of which you have been informed.<\/div>\n<\/blockquote>\n
*<\/div>\n
Again, nothing is in the least implausible in any of this . . . Yet you tried to make it a skeptical talking-point against the Bible.<\/div>\n
*<\/div>\n
The Jesus vs. the devil dialogue is written from the perspective of the narrator of the book. Since no one was there, it had to initially come either from a report by Jesus or from direct revelation by God. I always accept a natural \/ common sense explanation before I believe it was a supernatural event.<\/div>\n
*<\/div>\n
Why anyone would think it was impossible or [a lesser claim] implausible for Jesus to have simply told one or more of His followers what happened during the exchanges with the devil is beyond me.<\/div>\n
*<\/div>\n
It would surely have added much-needed verisimilitude to the account if the author had written something to the effect of, \u201cJesus related to me\/us that he had a conversation with Satan, as follows\u2026.\u201d Given the apparent purpose of the account in the first place, it\u2019s extremely puzzling that the writer didn\u2019t do this. Leaving readers plenty of room to doubt the narrative\u2019s veracity seems highly counter-productive.<\/span><\/div>\n
*<\/div>\n
There\u2019s no need to; no \u201cpuzzle\u201d at all. Most folks who aren\u2019t already hostile and predisposed to be cynical to the text, could figure out exactly what I explained. It\u2019s not difficult.<\/div>\n
*<\/div>\n
We know that Jesus massively taught His disciples (\u201cprivately to his own disciples he explained everything\u201d: Mk 4:34), and lived with them 24\/7 for three years.<\/div>\n
*<\/div>\n
This line of thinking is as fundamentally silly as when some atheist asked, \u201chow could Christians know that Mary gave birth as a virgin?\u201d Well (Duh!), she told<\/em> them! Boy, there\u2019s another tortuous question that is so<\/strong><\/em> difficult to resolve . . . [heavy sarcasm]<\/div>\n
*<\/div>\n
Similarly, St. Paul gives a public account of his conversion story (Acts 22:6-16), which was included in Scripture in a narrative form (Acts 9:1-19).<\/div>\n
*<\/div>\n
I agree that it would sound plausible to those who already accept the narrative as true. They\u2019d probably be perfectly happy with the virgin-birth miracle claim too.<\/span><\/div>\n
*<\/div>\n
\n

We regard the New Testament as a trustworthy document because it has been proven zillions of times by archaeology to be historically accurate in details. So we can trust it in places that don\u2019t have express historical evidences in its favor.<\/span><\/p>\n

It\u2019s the same manner in which we trust the demonstrably credible, reliable witness in a court trial.\u00a0<\/span>There\u2019s lots of other ancient literature that has supernatural or very odd elements that isn\u2019t dismissed just because of that. Thus, this \u201cstandard\u201d isn\u2019t applied by atheists across the board.<\/p>\n

We need to have a fair approach to ancient authors. We give them the benefit of the doubt that they are sincere and of good will, unless we have compelling evidence otherwise. Atheists offer no compelling reason or evidence for regarding the Gospel writers as deliberate deceivers or liars. <\/span>For example, we might consider the Greek historian Herodotus. Wikipedia<\/a>\u00a0states about him:<\/span><\/p>\n

\n

Herodotus (c.\u2009484 \u2013 c.\u2009425 BC) was an ancient Greek writer, geographer, and historian . . . known for having written the Histories \u2013 a detailed account of the Greco-Persian Wars. Herodotus was the first writer to do systematic investigation of historical events. He is referred to as \u201cThe Father of History\u201d, a title conferred on him by the ancient Roman orator Cicero.<\/span><\/p>\n

The Histories primarily covers the lives of prominent kings and famous battles such as Marathon, Thermopylae, Artemisium, Salamis, Plataea, and Mycale. His work deviates from the main topics to provide cultural, ethnographical, geographical, and historiographical background that forms an essential part of the narrative and provides readers with a wellspring of additional information.<\/span><\/p>\n

Herodotus has been criticized for his inclusion of \u201clegends and fanciful accounts\u201d in his work. Fellow historian Thucydides accused him of making up stories for entertainment. However, Herodotus explained that he reported what he \u201csaw and [what was] told to him.\u201d A sizable portion of the Histories has since been confirmed by modern historians and archaeologists.<\/span><\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n

Accordingly, we have an article in The Guardian<\/em>:\u00a0\u201cNile shipwreck discovery proves Herodotus right\u201d<\/a>\u00a0(3-17-19).<\/span><\/p>\n

Now, is his entire body of work discounted, and is he regarded as a wanton liar because he has some supernatural elements? No. What has been confirmed by archaeology and subsequent historiography is accepted, while atheists who don\u2019t believe in the supernatural simply discount those sections.<\/span><\/p>\n<\/div>\n

***<\/div>\n
\n

Practical Matters<\/em><\/strong>: Perhaps some of my 3,900+ free online articles (the most comprehensive \u201cone-stop\u201d Catholic apologetics site) or\u00a0fifty books<\/a>\u00a0have helped you (by God\u2019s grace) to decide to\u00a0become Catholic<\/a>\u00a0or to\u00a0return to the Church<\/a>, or better understand some doctrines and\u00a0why<\/em>\u00a0we believe them<\/a>.<\/p>\n

Or you may believe my work is worthy to support for the purpose of apologetics and evangelism in general. If so, please seriously consider a much-needed financial contribution. I\u2019m always in need of more funds: especially\u00a0monthly<\/em>\u00a0support. \u201cThe laborer is worthy of his wages\u201d (1 Tim 5:18, NKJV). 1 December 2021 was my 20th anniversary as a\u00a0full-time Catholic apologist<\/a>, and February 2022 marked the 25th anniversary of my blog.<\/p>\n

PayPal donations<\/a>\u00a0are the easiest: just send to my email address: apologistdave@gmail.com. You\u2019ll see the term \u201cCatholic Used Book Service\u201d, which is my old side-business. To learn about the different methods of contributing, including 100% tax deduction, etc., see my page:\u00a0About Catholic Apologist Dave Armstrong \/ Donation Information<\/a>.\u00a0Thanks a million<\/em><\/strong>\u00a0from the bottom of my heart!<\/p>\n

***<\/p>\n

Photo credit: <\/strong>Jesus Tempted<\/em>, by Carl Bloch (1834-1890)<\/span> [public domain \/ Wikimedia Commons<\/a>]<\/p>\n

***<\/p>\n

Summary<\/em>: An atheist brought up a point of puzzlement & curiosity to him: how is it that the Gospel writers can know of events, where no one else was present to witness them?<\/p>\n

*<\/p>\n<\/div>\n

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This came from an exchange with an atheist in the combox of Jonathan MS Pearce\u2019s article, \u201cWhy Matthew\u2019s guards at Jesus\u2019 tomb are so important\u201d (1-27-22). The atheist\u2019s words will be in blue. ***** I\u2019ve always had problems with so many bible passages that purport to document what happened either in secret or at least […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2331,"featured_media":62516,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[31],"tags":[6831,15665,6663,282,933,15662],"class_list":["post-62514","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-bible-and-tradition","tag-evangelists","tag-gospel-writers","tag-gospels","tag-new-testament","tag-oral-tradition","tag-trustworthiness-of-the-new-testament"],"yoast_head":"\nDialogue: Gospel Writers' Knowledge of "Hidden" Events Dialogue: Gospel Writers' Knowledge of "Hidden" Events<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"This came from an exchange with an atheist in the combox of Jonathan MS Pearce's article, "Why Matthew\u2019s guards at 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Dave\u2019s apologetics and writing apostolate was the subject of a feature article in the May 2002 issue of \\\"Envoy Magazine.\\\" He served as the staff moderator at the Internet discussion forum for The Coming Home Network, from 2007-2010. Dave has been interviewed on many nationally syndicated Catholic radio shows, including \\\"Catholic Answers Live\\\" (twice), \\\"Faith and Family Live\\\" (Steve Wood), \\\"Kresta in the Afternoon,\\\" \\\"Son Rise Morning Show,\\\" \\\"Catholic Connection\\\" (Teresa Tomeo), and \\\"The Catholics Next Door.\\\" His large and popular website, \\\"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism,\\\" was online from March 1997 to March 2007, and received the 1998 Catholic Website of the Year award from \\\"Envoy Magazine.\\\" His blog of the same name (now transferred to Patheos), begun in February 2004, contains more than 1,500 papers, at least 500 debates or dialogues, and over 50 distinct \\\"index\\\" web pages. Unsolicited correspondence has indicated many hundreds of conversions (or returns) to the Catholic faith as a result, by God's grace, of these writings. Dave's conversion story was published in the bestselling book \\\"Surprised by Truth\\\" (edited by Patrick Madrid; San Diego: Basilica Press, 1994). Sophia Institute Press has published six of his books: \\\"A Biblical Defense of Catholicism\\\" (Foreword by Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J., 1996 \/ 2003), \\\"The Catholic Verses\\\" (2004), \\\"The One-Minute Apologist\\\" (2007), \\\"Bible Proofs for Catholic Truths\\\" (2009), \\\"The Quotable Newman\\\" (editor: 2012), and \\\"Proving the Catholic Faith is Biblical\\\" (2015). He is co-author (with Dr. Paul Thigpen) of the inserts for \\\"The New Catholic Answer Bible\\\" (Our Sunday Visitor: 2005), and editor for \\\"The Wisdom of Mr. Chesterton: The Very Best Quotes, Quips, and Cracks from the Pen of G. K. Chesterton\\\" (Saint Benedict Press \/ TAN Books: 2009). \\\"100 Biblical Arguments Against Sola Scriptura\\\" was published by Catholic Answers in May 2012. His \\\"Quotable Wesley\\\" compilation was published by (Protestant \/ Wesleyan publisher) Beacon Hill Press in April 2014. Several of his 49 books are bestsellers in their field. Dave maintains a popular personal Facebook page, a Facebook author page, and has a Twitter account as well. He offers almost all of his books in e-book form on his own Biblical Catholicism site (http:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/), at a permanent deep discount: only $2.99 for ePub, mobi, and AZW, and $1.99 for PDF. His writing has been enthusiastically endorsed or recommended by many leading Catholic apologists, authors, and priests, including Dr. Scott Hahn, Fr. Peter M. J. Stravinskas, Marcus Grodi, Patrick Madrid, Steve Ray, Tim Staples, Devin Rose, Mike Aquilina, Al Kresta, Karl Keating, Fr. Dwight Longenecker, Brandon Vogt, Marcellino D'Ambrosio, and Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave has been happily married to his wife Judy since October 1984. 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apologetics","potentialAction":[{"@type":"SearchAction","target":{"@type":"EntryPoint","urlTemplate":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/?s={search_term_string}"},"query-input":"required name=search_term_string"}],"inLanguage":"en-US"},{"@type":"Person","@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/#\/schema\/person\/471eaa20e441eca4bb1ea50393cf632e","name":"Dave Armstrong","image":{"@type":"ImageObject","inLanguage":"en-US","@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/#\/schema\/person\/image\/","url":"https:\/\/secure.gravatar.com\/avatar\/820e6db89734ae7a9e5dac8d498f5ac7?s=96&d=mm&r=g","contentUrl":"https:\/\/secure.gravatar.com\/avatar\/820e6db89734ae7a9e5dac8d498f5ac7?s=96&d=mm&r=g","caption":"Dave Armstrong"},"description":"Dave Armstrong is a Catholic author and apologist, who has been actively proclaiming and defending Christianity since 1981, and Catholicism in particular since 1991 (full-time since December 2001). Formerly a campus missionary, as a Protestant, Dave was received into the Catholic Church in February 1991, by the late, well-known catechist and theologian, Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave\u2019s articles have appeared in many influential Catholic periodicals, including \"This Rock\" (now called \"Catholic Answers Magazine\"), \"Envoy Magazine\" (Patrick Madrid), \"The Catholic Answer,\" \"The Coming Home Journal,\" \"Gilbert Magazine\" (American Chesterton Society), and \"The Latin Mass.\" He also writes a featured column for every issue of \"The Michigan Catholic\": published by the archdiocese of Detroit, and was editor for most of the apologetics tracts published by the St. Paul Street Evangelization apostolate. Dave\u2019s apologetics and writing apostolate was the subject of a feature article in the May 2002 issue of \"Envoy Magazine.\" He served as the staff moderator at the Internet discussion forum for The Coming Home Network, from 2007-2010. Dave has been interviewed on many nationally syndicated Catholic radio shows, including \"Catholic Answers Live\" (twice), \"Faith and Family Live\" (Steve Wood), \"Kresta in the Afternoon,\" \"Son Rise Morning Show,\" \"Catholic Connection\" (Teresa Tomeo), and \"The Catholics Next Door.\" His large and popular website, \"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism,\" was online from March 1997 to March 2007, and received the 1998 Catholic Website of the Year award from \"Envoy Magazine.\" His blog of the same name (now transferred to Patheos), begun in February 2004, contains more than 1,500 papers, at least 500 debates or dialogues, and over 50 distinct \"index\" web pages. Unsolicited correspondence has indicated many hundreds of conversions (or returns) to the Catholic faith as a result, by God's grace, of these writings. Dave's conversion story was published in the bestselling book \"Surprised by Truth\" (edited by Patrick Madrid; San Diego: Basilica Press, 1994). Sophia Institute Press has published six of his books: \"A Biblical Defense of Catholicism\" (Foreword by Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J., 1996 \/ 2003), \"The Catholic Verses\" (2004), \"The One-Minute Apologist\" (2007), \"Bible Proofs for Catholic Truths\" (2009), \"The Quotable Newman\" (editor: 2012), and \"Proving the Catholic Faith is Biblical\" (2015). He is co-author (with Dr. Paul Thigpen) of the inserts for \"The New Catholic Answer Bible\" (Our Sunday Visitor: 2005), and editor for \"The Wisdom of Mr. Chesterton: The Very Best Quotes, Quips, and Cracks from the Pen of G. K. Chesterton\" (Saint Benedict Press \/ TAN Books: 2009). \"100 Biblical Arguments Against Sola Scriptura\" was published by Catholic Answers in May 2012. His \"Quotable Wesley\" compilation was published by (Protestant \/ Wesleyan publisher) Beacon Hill Press in April 2014. Several of his 49 books are bestsellers in their field. Dave maintains a popular personal Facebook page, a Facebook author page, and has a Twitter account as well. He offers almost all of his books in e-book form on his own Biblical Catholicism site (http:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/), at a permanent deep discount: only $2.99 for ePub, mobi, and AZW, and $1.99 for PDF. His writing has been enthusiastically endorsed or recommended by many leading Catholic apologists, authors, and priests, including Dr. Scott Hahn, Fr. Peter M. J. Stravinskas, Marcus Grodi, Patrick Madrid, Steve Ray, Tim Staples, Devin Rose, Mike Aquilina, Al Kresta, Karl Keating, Fr. Dwight Longenecker, Brandon Vogt, Marcellino D'Ambrosio, and Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave has been happily married to his wife Judy since October 1984. They have three sons and a daughter, and reside in southeast Michigan (metro Detroit).","sameAs":["https:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/","https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/dave.armstrong.798","https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/@LuxVeritatisApologetics"],"url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/author\/davearmstrong"}]}},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/62514","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/2331"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=62514"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/62514\/revisions"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/62516"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=62514"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=62514"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=62514"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}