{"id":62753,"date":"2022-02-15T12:42:45","date_gmt":"2022-02-15T16:42:45","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/?p=62753"},"modified":"2022-02-15T15:49:40","modified_gmt":"2022-02-15T19:49:40","slug":"seidensticker-folly-80-non-conversations-with-bs","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2022\/02\/seidensticker-folly-80-non-conversations-with-bs.html","title":{"rendered":"Seidensticker Folly #80: Non-“Conversations” with BS"},"content":{"rendered":"\n<\/head>

\"\"<\/a><\/p>\n

Atheist and anti-theist Bob Seidensticker<\/a>\u00a0runs the influential\u00a0Cross Examined<\/em>\u00a0blog<\/a>. He asked me there,\u00a0on 8-11-18<\/a>:\u00a0\u201cI\u2019ve got 1000+ posts here attacking your worldview. You just going to let that stand? Or could you present a helpful new perspective that I\u2019ve ignored on one or two of those posts?\u201d<\/span>\u00a0He added in June 2017\u00a0in a combox<\/a>:\u00a0\u201cIf I\u2019ve misunderstood the Christian position or Christian arguments, point that out. Show me where I\u2019ve mischaracterized them.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

For over three years, we have had (shall we say) rather difficult relations, with mutual bannings (while I have replied to his posts 79 times: all as of yet unanswered), but when Bob moved to his new location online<\/a>\u00a0at the\u00a0OnlySky<\/em>\u00a0super-site, he (surprisingly to me) decided to allow me to comment. As a conciliatory gesture in return, I removed his ban on my blog.\u00a0 He even stated on 1-21-22\u00a0in the same combox thread<\/a>, replying to me:\u00a0\u201cThere are a few new posts here. (Or, if you haven\u2019t been to my blog for a while, lots of new posts here.) Have at \u2019em. Let me know what you think.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

Delighted to oblige his wishes . . . Bob\u2019s words will be in\u00a0blue<\/span>.\u00a0To find these posts, follow this link:\u00a0\u201cSeidensticker Folly #\u201d<\/a>\u00a0or see all of them linked under his own section on my\u00a0Atheism page<\/a>.<\/p>\n

*****<\/p>\n

The following \u201cexchanges\u201d (shall we call them?) took place in the combox of Bob\u2019s article, \u201cChristians weaponizing scholars\u2019 quotes: Jastrow, Darwin, and Dawkins\u201d<\/a> (2-9-22). This is what passes in Bob\u2019s mind as \u201cdiscussion\u201d or \u201cconversation.\u201d It\u2019s mockery and condescending dismissal all the way.<\/p>\n

***<\/p>\n

\u201cORAXX\u201d: No discovery of science has ever pointed to the truth of ANY religious doctrine.<\/span><\/p>\n

No discovery of science has ever proven that atheism is the true state of affairs.<\/p>\n

True. And irrelevant. Someone is confused about who has the burden of proof.\u00a0When you\u2019ve proven that God exists, let us know.<\/span><\/p>\n

No proof is ever sufficient to overcome a will that refuses to believe. It\u2019s quite sufficient for us.<\/p>\n

That you keep using \u201cproof\u201d is hilarious. And tragic. I\u2019m sure it\u2019s all been explained to you, so I won\u2019t waste my time.<\/span><\/p>\n

I was kinda hoping that you\u2019d respond by saying, \u201cOK, you\u2019re right\u2013the burden of proof is mine. It was a slip of the pen to insist that the atheist has the burden of proof to show that God doesn\u2019t<\/em>\u00a0exist.\u201d Silly me.<\/span><\/p>\n

Kidding! All you know how to do is double down.<\/span><\/p>\n

I was referring to epistemology. Science neither proves nor disproves God. But it is the atheist\u2019s religion, so they often absurdly act as if the study of matter rules out an immaterial Being.<\/p>\n

I defend Christianity and the Bible against your attacks (78 times as of this writing). I give both sides and let readers decide which case is more plausible. You ignore all my critiques (which you have actually challenged me to do). Which approach do you think suggests more intellectual confidence in one\u2019s own belief?<\/p>\n

\u201catheist\u2019s religion\u201d? Fascinating. You\u2019ll have to share with us how religion without belief in the supernatural works.<\/span><\/p>\n

\n

In the 20th and 21st centuries, members of Humanist organizations have disagreed as to whether Humanism is a religion. They categorize themselves in one of three ways. Religious (or ethical) humanism, in the tradition of the earliest humanist organizations in the UK and US, attempts to fulfil the traditional social role of religion. . . .\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

Greg M. Epstein states that, \u2018modern, organized Humanism began, in the minds of its founders, as nothing more nor less than a religion without a God\u2019.\u00a0<\/span>(Wikipedia, \u201cSecular Humanism\u201d<\/a>)<\/span><\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n

Some Buddhists would say that Buddhism<\/a> can be construed and\/or practiced without supernatural elements.<\/span><\/p>\n

Humanism starts with an H, and atheism with an A. That\u2019s how I keep them apart in my mind.<\/span><\/p>\n

Non sequitur.<\/em> I was responding to your statement: \u201cYou\u2019ll have to share with us how religion without belief in the supernatural works.\u201d<\/span> My counter-examples were humanism and some forms of Buddhism, as construed by the followers of same.<\/p>\n

Not the point. Every involved conversation with you turns out to be a waste of time. I\u2019ve had WLC [William Lane Craig]<\/span>, Koukl, Jim Wallace, and probably others respond to my articles, and I\u2019ve usually responded. <\/span><\/p>\n

Of course, your view of William Lane Craig<\/a> is scarcely different from your view of me. In one article<\/a>, you wrote about him [on 7-21-14; updated on 3-23-18]:<\/span><\/p>\n

\n

[He has an] unhealthy relationship with facts and evidence.<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

dark and tangled recesses of the thinking<\/span><\/p>\n

. . . Craig\u2019s bizarre reply<\/span><\/p>\n

Craig once again vomits onto thoughtful discourse. He ignores the problem, assumes that he is right, and then shapes the facts to fit.<\/span><\/p>\n

The mental masturbation continues.<\/span><\/p>\n

Yes, he really said that. It\u2019d be a pain to have to, y\u2019know, do all that research and stuff. I mean, who\u2019s got the time? Using reason would be inconvenient, so let\u2019s not.<\/span><\/p>\n

Follow the drunken reasoning . . .<\/span><\/p>\n

Craig tells us that relying on reason would be inconvenient, so let\u2019s not.<\/span><\/p>\n

So much for apologetics to raise the intellectual content of the conversation.<\/span><\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n

You\u2019re the only one I ignore.<\/span><\/p>\n

It must be a new definition of \u201cignore\u201d that I am unaware of, seeing that eight of your last nine comments [i.e., on his OnlySky<\/em> blog, as can be verified by clicking on his name in the combox] were replies to me. What is this: doublethink?<\/p>\n

In the last fifteen days on this (or any<\/em><\/strong> OnlySky<\/em>) blog, as anyone can see, looking at your profile on OnlySky<\/em>, you have made nine comments. Eight of those were responding to me. So in fifteen days, you have responded exactly once<\/em> to someone other<\/em> than me.<\/p>\n

But now you are saying that you completely ignore me. Right. I do agree that you never make a sustained rational, thoughtful, non-mocking response . . .<\/p>\n

Good point. I\u2019ll try to ignore you better in the future.<\/span><\/p>\n

If the above is the level of your \u201cargumentation\u201d, please do!<\/p>\n

***<\/p>\n

Practical Matters<\/em><\/strong>: Perhaps some of my 4,000+ free online articles (the most comprehensive \u201cone-stop\u201d Catholic apologetics site) or\u00a0fifty books<\/a>\u00a0have helped you (by God\u2019s grace) to decide to\u00a0become Catholic<\/a>\u00a0or to\u00a0return to the Church<\/a>, or better understand some doctrines and\u00a0why<\/em>\u00a0we believe them<\/a>.<\/p>\n

Or you may believe my work is worthy to support for the purpose of apologetics and evangelism in general. If so, please seriously consider a much-needed financial contribution. I\u2019m always in need of more funds: especially\u00a0monthly<\/em>\u00a0support. \u201cThe laborer is worthy of his wages\u201d (1 Tim 5:18, NKJV). 1 December 2021 was my 20th anniversary as a\u00a0full-time Catholic apologist<\/a>, and February 2022 marked the 25th anniversary of my blog.<\/p>\n

PayPal donations<\/a>\u00a0are the easiest: just send to my email address: apologistdave@gmail.com. You\u2019ll see the term \u201cCatholic Used Book Service\u201d, which is my old side-business. To learn about the different methods of contributing, including 100% tax deduction, etc., see my page:\u00a0About Catholic Apologist Dave Armstrong \/ Donation Information<\/a>.\u00a0Thanks a million<\/em><\/strong>\u00a0from the bottom of my heart!<\/p>\n

***<\/p>\n

Photo credit: <\/strong>William Kentridge, In Mockery of Progress.<\/em> Image courtesy of the artist and Marian Goodman Gallery, New York.<\/span> [Flickr<\/a> \/ CC BY-NC-SA 2.o<\/a> license]<\/p>\n

***<\/p>\n

Summary<\/em>: Bob Seidensticker again provides a textbook \/ playbook demonstration of the mentality & folly of anti-theist polemicists, in a ridiculous non-\u201cconversation\u201d with me.<\/p>\n

\u00a0<\/p>\n

\n<\/p><\/body><\/html>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

Atheist and anti-theist Bob Seidensticker\u00a0runs the influential\u00a0Cross Examined\u00a0blog. He asked me there,\u00a0on 8-11-18:\u00a0\u201cI\u2019ve got 1000+ posts here attacking your worldview. You just going to let that stand? Or could you present a helpful new perspective that I\u2019ve ignored on one or two of those posts?\u201d\u00a0He added in June 2017\u00a0in a combox:\u00a0\u201cIf I\u2019ve misunderstood the Christian […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2331,"featured_media":62754,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[124],"tags":[626,1043,258,4126,5552,15743,15746,15740,1497,1107],"class_list":["post-62753","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-atheism-agnosticism","tag-angry-atheists","tag-anti-theism","tag-atheism","tag-bob-seidensticker","tag-cross-examined","tag-mocking-atheists","tag-non-conversations","tag-sarcastic-atheists","tag-scientific-materialism","tag-scientific-method"],"yoast_head":"\nSeidensticker Folly #80: Non-"Conversations" with BS Seidensticker Folly #80: Non-"Conversations" with BS<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"Atheist and anti-theist Bob Seidensticker\u00a0runs the influential\u00a0Cross Examined\u00a0blog. 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Formerly a campus missionary, as a Protestant, Dave was received into the Catholic Church in February 1991, by the late, well-known catechist and theologian, Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave\u2019s articles have appeared in many influential Catholic periodicals, including \\\"This Rock\\\" (now called \\\"Catholic Answers Magazine\\\"), \\\"Envoy Magazine\\\" (Patrick Madrid), \\\"The Catholic Answer,\\\" \\\"The Coming Home Journal,\\\" \\\"Gilbert Magazine\\\" (American Chesterton Society), and \\\"The Latin Mass.\\\" He also writes a featured column for every issue of \\\"The Michigan Catholic\\\": published by the archdiocese of Detroit, and was editor for most of the apologetics tracts published by the St. Paul Street Evangelization apostolate. Dave\u2019s apologetics and writing apostolate was the subject of a feature article in the May 2002 issue of \\\"Envoy Magazine.\\\" He served as the staff moderator at the Internet discussion forum for The Coming Home Network, from 2007-2010. Dave has been interviewed on many nationally syndicated Catholic radio shows, including \\\"Catholic Answers Live\\\" (twice), \\\"Faith and Family Live\\\" (Steve Wood), \\\"Kresta in the Afternoon,\\\" \\\"Son Rise Morning Show,\\\" \\\"Catholic Connection\\\" (Teresa Tomeo), and \\\"The Catholics Next Door.\\\" His large and popular website, \\\"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism,\\\" was online from March 1997 to March 2007, and received the 1998 Catholic Website of the Year award from \\\"Envoy Magazine.\\\" His blog of the same name (now transferred to Patheos), begun in February 2004, contains more than 1,500 papers, at least 500 debates or dialogues, and over 50 distinct \\\"index\\\" web pages. Unsolicited correspondence has indicated many hundreds of conversions (or returns) to the Catholic faith as a result, by God's grace, of these writings. Dave's conversion story was published in the bestselling book \\\"Surprised by Truth\\\" (edited by Patrick Madrid; San Diego: Basilica Press, 1994). Sophia Institute Press has published six of his books: \\\"A Biblical Defense of Catholicism\\\" (Foreword by Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J., 1996 \/ 2003), \\\"The Catholic Verses\\\" (2004), \\\"The One-Minute Apologist\\\" (2007), \\\"Bible Proofs for Catholic Truths\\\" (2009), \\\"The Quotable Newman\\\" (editor: 2012), and \\\"Proving the Catholic Faith is Biblical\\\" (2015). He is co-author (with Dr. Paul Thigpen) of the inserts for \\\"The New Catholic Answer Bible\\\" (Our Sunday Visitor: 2005), and editor for \\\"The Wisdom of Mr. Chesterton: The Very Best Quotes, Quips, and Cracks from the Pen of G. K. Chesterton\\\" (Saint Benedict Press \/ TAN Books: 2009). \\\"100 Biblical Arguments Against Sola Scriptura\\\" was published by Catholic Answers in May 2012. His \\\"Quotable Wesley\\\" compilation was published by (Protestant \/ Wesleyan publisher) Beacon Hill Press in April 2014. Several of his 49 books are bestsellers in their field. Dave maintains a popular personal Facebook page, a Facebook author page, and has a Twitter account as well. He offers almost all of his books in e-book form on his own Biblical Catholicism site (http:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/), at a permanent deep discount: only $2.99 for ePub, mobi, and AZW, and $1.99 for PDF. His writing has been enthusiastically endorsed or recommended by many leading Catholic apologists, authors, and priests, including Dr. Scott Hahn, Fr. Peter M. J. Stravinskas, Marcus Grodi, Patrick Madrid, Steve Ray, Tim Staples, Devin Rose, Mike Aquilina, Al Kresta, Karl Keating, Fr. Dwight Longenecker, Brandon Vogt, Marcellino D'Ambrosio, and Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave has been happily married to his wife Judy since October 1984. They have three sons and a daughter, and reside in southeast Michigan (metro Detroit).\",\"sameAs\":[\"https:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/\",\"https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/dave.armstrong.798\",\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/@LuxVeritatisApologetics\"],\"url\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/author\/davearmstrong\"}]}<\/script>\n<!-- \/ Yoast SEO plugin. -->","yoast_head_json":{"title":"Seidensticker Folly #80: Non-\"Conversations\" with BS Seidensticker Folly #80: Non-\"Conversations\" with BS","description":"Atheist and anti-theist Bob Seidensticker\u00a0runs the influential\u00a0Cross Examined\u00a0blog. 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He asked me there,\u00a0on 8-11-18:\u00a0\u201cI\u2019ve got 1000+ posts here attacking Bob Seidensticker again provides a textbook \/ playbook demonstration of the mentality & folly of anti-theist polemicists, in a ridiculous non-\"conversation\" with me.","og_url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2022\/02\/seidensticker-folly-80-non-conversations-with-bs.html","og_site_name":"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism","article_author":"https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/dave.armstrong.798","article_published_time":"2022-02-15T16:42:45+00:00","article_modified_time":"2022-02-15T19:49:40+00:00","og_image":[{"width":750,"height":563,"url":"https:\/\/wp-media.patheos.com\/blogs\/sites\/572\/2022\/02\/ResistArgument.jpg","type":"image\/jpeg"}],"author":"Dave Armstrong","twitter_card":"summary_large_image","twitter_misc":{"Written by":"Dave Armstrong","Est. reading time":"6 minutes"},"schema":{"@context":"https:\/\/schema.org","@graph":[{"@type":"WebPage","@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2022\/02\/seidensticker-folly-80-non-conversations-with-bs.html","url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2022\/02\/seidensticker-folly-80-non-conversations-with-bs.html","name":"Seidensticker Folly #80: Non-\"Conversations\" with BS Seidensticker Folly #80: Non-\"Conversations\" with BS","isPartOf":{"@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/#website"},"datePublished":"2022-02-15T16:42:45+00:00","dateModified":"2022-02-15T19:49:40+00:00","author":{"@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/#\/schema\/person\/471eaa20e441eca4bb1ea50393cf632e"},"description":"Atheist and anti-theist Bob Seidensticker\u00a0runs the influential\u00a0Cross Examined\u00a0blog. 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Formerly a campus missionary, as a Protestant, Dave was received into the Catholic Church in February 1991, by the late, well-known catechist and theologian, Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave\u2019s articles have appeared in many influential Catholic periodicals, including \"This Rock\" (now called \"Catholic Answers Magazine\"), \"Envoy Magazine\" (Patrick Madrid), \"The Catholic Answer,\" \"The Coming Home Journal,\" \"Gilbert Magazine\" (American Chesterton Society), and \"The Latin Mass.\" He also writes a featured column for every issue of \"The Michigan Catholic\": published by the archdiocese of Detroit, and was editor for most of the apologetics tracts published by the St. Paul Street Evangelization apostolate. Dave\u2019s apologetics and writing apostolate was the subject of a feature article in the May 2002 issue of \"Envoy Magazine.\" He served as the staff moderator at the Internet discussion forum for The Coming Home Network, from 2007-2010. Dave has been interviewed on many nationally syndicated Catholic radio shows, including \"Catholic Answers Live\" (twice), \"Faith and Family Live\" (Steve Wood), \"Kresta in the Afternoon,\" \"Son Rise Morning Show,\" \"Catholic Connection\" (Teresa Tomeo), and \"The Catholics Next Door.\" His large and popular website, \"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism,\" was online from March 1997 to March 2007, and received the 1998 Catholic Website of the Year award from \"Envoy Magazine.\" His blog of the same name (now transferred to Patheos), begun in February 2004, contains more than 1,500 papers, at least 500 debates or dialogues, and over 50 distinct \"index\" web pages. Unsolicited correspondence has indicated many hundreds of conversions (or returns) to the Catholic faith as a result, by God's grace, of these writings. Dave's conversion story was published in the bestselling book \"Surprised by Truth\" (edited by Patrick Madrid; San Diego: Basilica Press, 1994). Sophia Institute Press has published six of his books: \"A Biblical Defense of Catholicism\" (Foreword by Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J., 1996 \/ 2003), \"The Catholic Verses\" (2004), \"The One-Minute Apologist\" (2007), \"Bible Proofs for Catholic Truths\" (2009), \"The Quotable Newman\" (editor: 2012), and \"Proving the Catholic Faith is Biblical\" (2015). He is co-author (with Dr. Paul Thigpen) of the inserts for \"The New Catholic Answer Bible\" (Our Sunday Visitor: 2005), and editor for \"The Wisdom of Mr. Chesterton: The Very Best Quotes, Quips, and Cracks from the Pen of G. K. Chesterton\" (Saint Benedict Press \/ TAN Books: 2009). \"100 Biblical Arguments Against Sola Scriptura\" was published by Catholic Answers in May 2012. His \"Quotable Wesley\" compilation was published by (Protestant \/ Wesleyan publisher) Beacon Hill Press in April 2014. Several of his 49 books are bestsellers in their field. Dave maintains a popular personal Facebook page, a Facebook author page, and has a Twitter account as well. He offers almost all of his books in e-book form on his own Biblical Catholicism site (http:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/), at a permanent deep discount: only $2.99 for ePub, mobi, and AZW, and $1.99 for PDF. His writing has been enthusiastically endorsed or recommended by many leading Catholic apologists, authors, and priests, including Dr. Scott Hahn, Fr. Peter M. J. Stravinskas, Marcus Grodi, Patrick Madrid, Steve Ray, Tim Staples, Devin Rose, Mike Aquilina, Al Kresta, Karl Keating, Fr. Dwight Longenecker, Brandon Vogt, Marcellino D'Ambrosio, and Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave has been happily married to his wife Judy since October 1984. They have three sons and a daughter, and reside in southeast Michigan (metro Detroit).","sameAs":["https:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/","https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/dave.armstrong.798","https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/@LuxVeritatisApologetics"],"url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/author\/davearmstrong"}]}},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/62753","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/2331"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=62753"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/62753\/revisions"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/62754"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=62753"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=62753"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=62753"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}