{"id":63201,"date":"2022-03-11T11:45:57","date_gmt":"2022-03-11T15:45:57","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/?p=63201"},"modified":"2022-03-11T11:45:57","modified_gmt":"2022-03-11T15:45:57","slug":"anti-catholic-argument-for-marys-assumption","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2022\/03\/anti-catholic-argument-for-marys-assumption.html","title":{"rendered":"Anti-Catholic Argument (!) for Mary’s Assumption"},"content":{"rendered":"\n<\/head>

\"\"<\/a><\/p>\n

Jason Engwer<\/strong> is a Protestant and anti-Catholic apologist, who is the main writer at the Triablogue<\/em> site<\/a>. I\u2019ve had many debates with him; well, until he decided to stop interacting, some years ago now. One can see them by searching his name on my Anti-Catholicism web page<\/a>. His words will be in blue<\/span>.<\/p>\n

*****<\/p>\n

Recently, it struck me how Jason loves<\/em> the argument from silence<\/a> when it comes to the Church fathers and Mary\u2019s Assumption<\/a>, but then he doesn\u2019t like it<\/em> at all<\/em> with regard to St. Paul hardly mentioning Jesus\u2019 miracles, and never mentioning John the Baptist. Why the difference<\/em>? I\u2019d like to explore this a bit and make some semi-satirical analogies.\u00a0Here is Jason decrying the argument from silence when atheists use it against St. Paul:<\/p>\n

Skeptics occasionally object to the historicity of Jesus\u2019 miracles on the basis that they aren\u2019t mentioned in Paul\u2019s letters.. . . We have no reason to expect Paul to have mentioned Jesus\u2019 miracles. There are places where he\u00a0could<\/i>\u00a0have mentioned them, but I see no way to argue that he\u00a0should<\/i>\u00a0have brought them up in the manner under consideration. Watch the video clip<\/span>\u00a0here<\/a>\u00a0for some comments from Tim McGrew on the argument from silence. Jesus\u2019 baptism by John the Baptist is widely accepted as historical, yet Paul not only doesn\u2019t mention it, but also doesn\u2019t even mention John the Baptist (if we define a mentioning of such things the same way critics are defining a mentioning of Jesus\u2019 miracles). And John the Baptist has a large role in the gospels. (<\/span><\/span>Why doesn\u2019t Paul mention Jesus\u2019 miracles?<\/a>, 3-6-22)<\/p>\n

Interesting. I shall now apply this reasoning to Mary, by way of analogy:<\/p>\n

Protestants frequently object to the historicity of Mary\u2019s Assumption on the basis that it isn\u2019t mentioned in the earlier Church fathers .. . . We have no reason to expect them to have mentioned her Assumption. There are places where they could<\/i> have mentioned it, but I see no way to argue that they should<\/i> have brought it up in the manner under consideration. Watch the video clip here <\/a>for some comments from Tim McGrew on the argument from silence. Mary\u2019s Assumption is widely accepted by Catholics as historical, yet the earlier Church fathers don\u2019t mention it. And Mary has a large role in salvation history.<\/span><\/p><\/blockquote>\n

In an earlier paper<\/a>, I also turned Jason\u2019s argument against Mary back upon him, by analogy:<\/p>\n

Sola Scriptura<\/em><\/p>\n

Many patristic sources highly praise Scripture as God\u2019s Word and provide extensive biblical texts in favor of the Christian doctrines that they defend. But no early patristic source says anything about\u00a0the definition and exact nature of\u00a0sola Scriptura<\/em><\/a> as the rule of faith [as provided by, e.g., James White, Normal Geisler, and Keith Mathison]. Yet this is the Protestant rule of faith, and entire basis of its self-understood authority.\u00a0How likely is it that all of these sources, commenting in so many different contexts, would all refrain from mentioning the definition and exact nature of\u00a0sola Scriptura<\/em>\u00a0as the rule of faith, even though they [so we are told, supposedly] knew of it, and believed it? If these early Christians held to\u00a0sola Scriptura<\/em>\u00a0as the rule of faith as present-day Protestants do, or even close to so high a view, you\u2019d expect them to cite its definition quite prominently. Instead, they don\u2019t mention it at all.<\/p>\n

The New Testament Canon<\/em><\/p>\n

No early patristic source provides the complete list of the New Testament biblical canon until St. Athanasius in 367. Yet this is part and parcel of the Protestant rule of faith,\u00a0sola Scriptura<\/em>, [one can\u2019t grant the Bible alone sole infallible authority unless one knows exactly what it\u00a0is<\/em>] and entire basis of its self-understood authority.\u00a0How likely is it that all of these sources, commenting in so many different contexts, would all refrain [prior to 367] from mentioning the exact parameters of the canon of the New Testament, even though they [so we are told, supposedly] knew of it? If these early Christians held to the 27-book New Testament canon, as present-day Protestants do, or even close to such a view, you\u2019d expect them to mention this quite prominently. Instead, they don\u2019t mention it at all. And several of these fathers included books in the New Testament canon that no Christian today includes.<\/p>\n

[the canon of the New Testament wasn\u2019t finalized until 397 A.D.]<\/p>\n

Faith Alone<\/i>\u00a0(sola fide<\/i>)<\/p>\n

Even foundational and distinctive Protestant doctrines, such as the notion of Faith Alone<\/i> or imputed, extrinsic, forensic justification, are well-nigh nonexistent all through Church history until Luther\u2019s arrival on the scene, as, for example, prominent Protestant apologist Norman Geisler recently freely admitted:<\/p>\n

[O]ne can be saved without believing that imputed righteousness (or forensic justification) is an essential part of the true gospel. Otherwise, few people were saved between the time of the apostle Paul and the Reformation, since scarcely anyone taught imputed righteousness (or forensic justification) during that period! (Norman L. Geisler and Ralph E. MacKenzie,\u00a0Roman Catholics and Evangelicals: Agreements and Differences<\/i>, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Baker Books, 1995,\u00a0 503)<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n

There are other examples, too:<\/p>\n

Original Sin<\/em><\/p>\n

Cardinal Newman cited sixteen Church fathers who expressed the doctrine of purgatory in some form, and noted that the doctrine achieved \u201calmost a consensus of the first four ages of the Church.\u201d Yet patristic teaching on original sin is far less apparent, and it didn\u2019t even appear in the Apostles\u2019 Creed or the Nicene Creed.<\/p>\n

Deity of Christ and the Holy Trinity<\/em><\/p>\n

The divinity of Christ was dogmatically proclaimed only at the \u201clate\u201d date of 325, the fully worked-out doctrine of the Holy Trinity in 381, and the Two Natures of Christ (God and Man) in 451, all in Ecumenical Councils which are accepted by most Protestants.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

Why is it that Protestants have no problem whatever<\/em> accepting all of the above (including their two famous \u201cpillars\u201d: sola Scriptura<\/em> and sola fide<\/em>) even though patristic evidence is remarkably \u2014 sometimes literally totally<\/em> \u2014 lacking? Perhaps some Protestant will educate us as to why the glaring double standard and application of \u201cpatristic absence\u201d to the Marian doctrines but not to Protestant distinctives. I won\u2019t hold my breath. No one has explained it to me yet<\/em> in my 31 years since becoming a Catholic.<\/p>\n

I provide many articles that deal with the question of the alleged\u00a0total<\/em> \u201cabsence\u201d of the Assumption of Mary from Holy Scripture, too (see my Blessed Virgin Mary web page<\/a> and search for \u201cAssumption\u201d). A fairly strong case can be made for it from the Bible alone. In fact, there is more<\/em>\u00a0about Mary\u2019s Assumption in Scripture than there is about the biblical canon and the definition and exact nature of\u00a0sola Scriptura<\/em>: that is,\u00a0nothing at all<\/em>\u00a0in both cases; zip, zero, zilch.<\/p>\n

I don\u2019t think the Assumption is biblically implausible in the least. All it\u2019s saying is that Mary received her resurrected body first among the saints (all of whom will eventually do the same thing). The mother of Jesus our Lord and Savior didn\u2019t have to undergo the decay of death.<\/p>\n

***<\/p>\n

Practical Matters<\/em><\/strong>: Perhaps some of my 4,000+ free online articles (the most comprehensive \u201cone-stop\u201d Catholic apologetics site) or\u00a0fifty books<\/a>\u00a0have helped you (by God\u2019s grace) to decide to\u00a0become Catholic<\/a>\u00a0or to\u00a0return to the Church<\/a>, or better understand some doctrines and\u00a0why<\/em>\u00a0we believe them<\/a>.<\/p>\n

Or you may believe my work is worthy to support for the purpose of apologetics and evangelism in general. If so, please seriously consider a much-needed financial contribution. I\u2019m always in need of more funds: especially\u00a0monthly<\/em>\u00a0support. \u201cThe laborer is worthy of his wages\u201d (1 Tim 5:18, NKJV). 1 December 2021 was my 20th anniversary as a\u00a0full-time Catholic apologist<\/a>, and February 2022 marked the 25th anniversary of my blog.<\/p>\n

PayPal donations<\/a>\u00a0are the easiest: just send to my email address: apologistdave@gmail.com. You\u2019ll see the term \u201cCatholic Used Book Service\u201d, which is my old side-business. To learn about the different methods of contributing, including 100% tax deduction, etc., see my page:\u00a0About Catholic Apologist Dave Armstrong \/ Donation Information<\/a>.\u00a0Thanks a million<\/em><\/strong>\u00a0from the bottom of my heart!<\/p>\n

***<\/p>\n

Photo credit<\/strong>: The Assumption of the Virgin<\/em>, by Charles Le Brun (1619-1690)<\/span>\u00a0[public domain \/\u00a0Wikimedia Commons<\/a>]<\/p>\n

***<\/p>\n

Summary<\/em>: Jason Engwer argues that an argument from silence doesn\u2019t work with Paul regarding Jesus\u2019 miracles. I apply his same reasoning analogically to Mary\u2019s Assumption.<\/p>\n

\u00a0<\/p>\n<\/body><\/html>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

Jason Engwer is a Protestant and anti-Catholic apologist, who is the main writer at the Triablogue site. I\u2019ve had many debates with him; well, until he decided to stop interacting, some years ago now. One can see them by searching his name on my Anti-Catholicism web page. His words will be in blue. ***** Recently, […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2331,"featured_media":63203,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[231,45],"tags":[1507,3176,3178,1500,503,2356,3175,9237,5468,10422,4222],"class_list":["post-63201","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-anti-catholicism","category-blessed-virgin-mary","tag-assumption-of-mary","tag-bodily-assumption-of-mary","tag-dormition","tag-jason-engwer","tag-marian-doctrine","tag-mariology","tag-marys-assumption","tag-marys-bodily-assumption","tag-marys-death","tag-triablogue","tag-two-witnesses-of-revelation"],"yoast_head":"\nAnti-Catholic Argument (!) for Mary's Assumption Anti-Catholic Argument (!) for Mary's Assumption<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"Jason Engwer is a Protestant and anti-Catholic apologist, who is the main writer at the Triablogue site. 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Formerly a campus missionary, as a Protestant, Dave was received into the Catholic Church in February 1991, by the late, well-known catechist and theologian, Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave\u2019s articles have appeared in many influential Catholic periodicals, including \\\"This Rock\\\" (now called \\\"Catholic Answers Magazine\\\"), \\\"Envoy Magazine\\\" (Patrick Madrid), \\\"The Catholic Answer,\\\" \\\"The Coming Home Journal,\\\" \\\"Gilbert Magazine\\\" (American Chesterton Society), and \\\"The Latin Mass.\\\" He also writes a featured column for every issue of \\\"The Michigan Catholic\\\": published by the archdiocese of Detroit, and was editor for most of the apologetics tracts published by the St. Paul Street Evangelization apostolate. Dave\u2019s apologetics and writing apostolate was the subject of a feature article in the May 2002 issue of \\\"Envoy Magazine.\\\" He served as the staff moderator at the Internet discussion forum for The Coming Home Network, from 2007-2010. Dave has been interviewed on many nationally syndicated Catholic radio shows, including \\\"Catholic Answers Live\\\" (twice), \\\"Faith and Family Live\\\" (Steve Wood), \\\"Kresta in the Afternoon,\\\" \\\"Son Rise Morning Show,\\\" \\\"Catholic Connection\\\" (Teresa Tomeo), and \\\"The Catholics Next Door.\\\" His large and popular website, \\\"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism,\\\" was online from March 1997 to March 2007, and received the 1998 Catholic Website of the Year award from \\\"Envoy Magazine.\\\" His blog of the same name (now transferred to Patheos), begun in February 2004, contains more than 1,500 papers, at least 500 debates or dialogues, and over 50 distinct \\\"index\\\" web pages. Unsolicited correspondence has indicated many hundreds of conversions (or returns) to the Catholic faith as a result, by God's grace, of these writings. Dave's conversion story was published in the bestselling book \\\"Surprised by Truth\\\" (edited by Patrick Madrid; San Diego: Basilica Press, 1994). Sophia Institute Press has published six of his books: \\\"A Biblical Defense of Catholicism\\\" (Foreword by Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J., 1996 \/ 2003), \\\"The Catholic Verses\\\" (2004), \\\"The One-Minute Apologist\\\" (2007), \\\"Bible Proofs for Catholic Truths\\\" (2009), \\\"The Quotable Newman\\\" (editor: 2012), and \\\"Proving the Catholic Faith is Biblical\\\" (2015). He is co-author (with Dr. Paul Thigpen) of the inserts for \\\"The New Catholic Answer Bible\\\" (Our Sunday Visitor: 2005), and editor for \\\"The Wisdom of Mr. Chesterton: The Very Best Quotes, Quips, and Cracks from the Pen of G. K. Chesterton\\\" (Saint Benedict Press \/ TAN Books: 2009). \\\"100 Biblical Arguments Against Sola Scriptura\\\" was published by Catholic Answers in May 2012. His \\\"Quotable Wesley\\\" compilation was published by (Protestant \/ Wesleyan publisher) Beacon Hill Press in April 2014. Several of his 49 books are bestsellers in their field. Dave maintains a popular personal Facebook page, a Facebook author page, and has a Twitter account as well. He offers almost all of his books in e-book form on his own Biblical Catholicism site (http:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/), at a permanent deep discount: only $2.99 for ePub, mobi, and AZW, and $1.99 for PDF. His writing has been enthusiastically endorsed or recommended by many leading Catholic apologists, authors, and priests, including Dr. Scott Hahn, Fr. Peter M. J. Stravinskas, Marcus Grodi, Patrick Madrid, Steve Ray, Tim Staples, Devin Rose, Mike Aquilina, Al Kresta, Karl Keating, Fr. Dwight Longenecker, Brandon Vogt, Marcellino D'Ambrosio, and Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave has been happily married to his wife Judy since October 1984. They have three sons and a daughter, and reside in southeast Michigan (metro Detroit).\",\"sameAs\":[\"https:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/\",\"https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/dave.armstrong.798\",\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/@LuxVeritatisApologetics\"],\"url\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/author\/davearmstrong\"}]}<\/script>\n<!-- \/ Yoast SEO plugin. -->","yoast_head_json":{"title":"Anti-Catholic Argument (!) for Mary's Assumption Anti-Catholic Argument (!) for Mary's Assumption","description":"Jason Engwer is a Protestant and anti-Catholic apologist, who is the main writer at the Triablogue site. I've had many debates with him; well, until he Jason Engwer argues that an argument from silence doesn't work with Paul regarding Jesus' miracles. 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Formerly a campus missionary, as a Protestant, Dave was received into the Catholic Church in February 1991, by the late, well-known catechist and theologian, Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave\u2019s articles have appeared in many influential Catholic periodicals, including \"This Rock\" (now called \"Catholic Answers Magazine\"), \"Envoy Magazine\" (Patrick Madrid), \"The Catholic Answer,\" \"The Coming Home Journal,\" \"Gilbert Magazine\" (American Chesterton Society), and \"The Latin Mass.\" He also writes a featured column for every issue of \"The Michigan Catholic\": published by the archdiocese of Detroit, and was editor for most of the apologetics tracts published by the St. Paul Street Evangelization apostolate. Dave\u2019s apologetics and writing apostolate was the subject of a feature article in the May 2002 issue of \"Envoy Magazine.\" He served as the staff moderator at the Internet discussion forum for The Coming Home Network, from 2007-2010. Dave has been interviewed on many nationally syndicated Catholic radio shows, including \"Catholic Answers Live\" (twice), \"Faith and Family Live\" (Steve Wood), \"Kresta in the Afternoon,\" \"Son Rise Morning Show,\" \"Catholic Connection\" (Teresa Tomeo), and \"The Catholics Next Door.\" His large and popular website, \"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism,\" was online from March 1997 to March 2007, and received the 1998 Catholic Website of the Year award from \"Envoy Magazine.\" His blog of the same name (now transferred to Patheos), begun in February 2004, contains more than 1,500 papers, at least 500 debates or dialogues, and over 50 distinct \"index\" web pages. Unsolicited correspondence has indicated many hundreds of conversions (or returns) to the Catholic faith as a result, by God's grace, of these writings. Dave's conversion story was published in the bestselling book \"Surprised by Truth\" (edited by Patrick Madrid; San Diego: Basilica Press, 1994). Sophia Institute Press has published six of his books: \"A Biblical Defense of Catholicism\" (Foreword by Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J., 1996 \/ 2003), \"The Catholic Verses\" (2004), \"The One-Minute Apologist\" (2007), \"Bible Proofs for Catholic Truths\" (2009), \"The Quotable Newman\" (editor: 2012), and \"Proving the Catholic Faith is Biblical\" (2015). He is co-author (with Dr. Paul Thigpen) of the inserts for \"The New Catholic Answer Bible\" (Our Sunday Visitor: 2005), and editor for \"The Wisdom of Mr. Chesterton: The Very Best Quotes, Quips, and Cracks from the Pen of G. K. Chesterton\" (Saint Benedict Press \/ TAN Books: 2009). \"100 Biblical Arguments Against Sola Scriptura\" was published by Catholic Answers in May 2012. His \"Quotable Wesley\" compilation was published by (Protestant \/ Wesleyan publisher) Beacon Hill Press in April 2014. Several of his 49 books are bestsellers in their field. Dave maintains a popular personal Facebook page, a Facebook author page, and has a Twitter account as well. He offers almost all of his books in e-book form on his own Biblical Catholicism site (http:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/), at a permanent deep discount: only $2.99 for ePub, mobi, and AZW, and $1.99 for PDF. His writing has been enthusiastically endorsed or recommended by many leading Catholic apologists, authors, and priests, including Dr. Scott Hahn, Fr. Peter M. J. Stravinskas, Marcus Grodi, Patrick Madrid, Steve Ray, Tim Staples, Devin Rose, Mike Aquilina, Al Kresta, Karl Keating, Fr. Dwight Longenecker, Brandon Vogt, Marcellino D'Ambrosio, and Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave has been happily married to his wife Judy since October 1984. They have three sons and a daughter, and reside in southeast Michigan (metro Detroit).","sameAs":["https:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/","https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/dave.armstrong.798","https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/@LuxVeritatisApologetics"],"url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/author\/davearmstrong"}]}},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/63201","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/2331"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=63201"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/63201\/revisions"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/63203"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=63201"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=63201"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=63201"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}