\n
(written in 1995)<\/span><\/p>\n* * *\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<\/div>\nPaul the Presbyterian: Hey Dante! What is this nonsense about purgatory<\/span> [spoken with a grimace] that you Catholics teach? Haven\u2019t you read that \u201cto be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord\u201d (2 Cor 5:8)?<\/span><\/p>\nDante the Catholic: First of all, you\u2019re misreading that verse. Paul is saying only that he would rather be present with God in spirit than here in his body. Secondly, your interpretation wouldn\u2019t apply to those who are damned to hell, since they are not \u201cwith the Lord.\u201d Thirdly, why would you assume that to be in purgatory is to not<\/i> be with God?<\/span><\/p>\nPaul: Well, I\u2019m impressed. But still, you can\u2019t show me a single verse in the Bible which refers to a state in the afterlife other than heaven or hell.<\/span><\/p>\nDante: Really? I hate to contradict you [smiles], but what about the parable of Lazarus and the rich man (Lk 16:19-31)? This is the Hebrew Sheol <\/i>(Greek, Hades<\/i>) since it includes both good and bad men. Heaven can\u2019t have sinners<\/i> in it (Rev 21:27) and hell wouldn\u2019t have saved<\/i> persons in it.<\/span><\/p>\nPaul: Ah, but this is just a parable. You can\u2019t construct a doctrine out of a story! You\u2019ll have to do better than that.<\/span><\/p>\nDante: I disagree. Jesus wouldn\u2019t tell a falsehood about spiritual matters, even within a parable. This would be misleading. Besides, we\u2019re told that Christ preached to (apparently damned) \u201cspirits in prison\u201d after His death (1 Pet 3:19-20) and took the righteous dead with Him to heaven (Eph 4:8-10). This indicates a divided Sheol<\/i> or Hades<\/i>, with the righteous and the wicked: a third place or state.<\/span><\/p>\nPaul: Well . . . alright, you got me on that one. But no one could go to heaven until after Jesus\u2019 Resurrection, and then there were only two destinations after death.<\/span><\/p>\nDante: No: Elijah went straight to heaven (2 Ki 2:11), and most Christians believe the same about Enoch (Gen 5:24). So there were two possibilities for the righteous then: Sheol or heaven, just as there are two today: purgatory or heaven, as Jesus strongly hints (Mt 5:25-26; Lk 12:58-59).<\/span><\/p>\nPaul: Okay, but what other verse can you come up with?<\/span><\/p>\nDante: Well, Paul accepts prayers for the dead, which presupposes a purgatory, where dead men can still be assisted.<\/span><\/p>\nPaul: Come on! Now you\u2019re really off the deep end. Where?<\/span>
\n
\n<\/span>Dante: In 1 Corinthians 15:29, Paul refers to people being \u201cbaptized for the dead.\u201d And he appears to pray for a dead man, Onesiphorus, in 2 Timothy 1:16-18.<\/span><\/p>\nPaul: What do you think he means by \u201cbaptisms for the dead?\u201d<\/span><\/p>\nDante: We think he is referring to acts of penance and prayers for the dead. \u201cBaptism\u201d is often a metaphor for suffering (Mk 10:38-39; Lk 3:16, 12:50), and Paul seems to have 2 Maccabees 12:44 in mind \u2013 a very similar verse which explicitly teaches the propriety of prayers for the dead.<\/span><\/p>\nPaul: But that\u2019s in the Apocrypha. We don\u2019t accept that.<\/span><\/p>\nDante: I know, but if Paul is indeed referring to it, that\u2019s beside the point, and you still have to interpret Paul somehow. But there\u2019s more: Jesus speaks of sins being forgiven in the \u201cworld to come\u201d (Mt 12:32), and three levels of judgment (Mt 5:22). These must be references to purgatory. Scripture often mentions a \u201cfire\u201d and a purging, cleansing process by which we become holy (Ex 19:18; Is 4:4; 6:7; Mal 3:1-4; 2 Cor 7:1; 1 Thess 4:3, 7; 1 Jn 3:2-3; Heb 12:29).<\/span><\/p>\nPaul: But why would God want to torment us like that? What\u2019s the point? Why wouldn\u2019t He just forgive us and be done with it, since Jesus already bore all our penalties (Is 53:4-6)?<\/span><\/p>\nDante: God is holy and perfect as well as loving, and this process is simply the way we must enter into His presence. Besides, it\u2019s much more merciful to allow people to be purged of their remaining sins after death as a prelude to heaven, than to condemn them to hell. Whatever the reason, God has revealed purgatory to us in the Bible. Paul talks about the \u201cjudgment seat of Christ\u201d (1 Cor 3:11-15; 2 Cor 5:10), where our works will be \u201ctested,\u201d after which some will be saved \u201conly as through fire.\u201d In all essentials, this is precisely what Catholics mean by purgatory. Don\u2019t you believe in the \u201cjudgment seat of Christ,\u201d and that holiness is required to see God (Heb 12:14-15, 23; Eph 5:5)?<\/span><\/p>\nPaul: Well sure, but it takes place quickly at the Judgment.<\/span><\/p>\nDante: Okay, suppose I grant you that. Now we\u2019re only arguing about duration, a mere quantitative<\/i> rather than qualitative<\/i> dispute. Why quibble over details? We\u2019re not far apart.<\/span><\/p>\nPaul: Yes, but we don\u2019t think that this judgment goes on for thousands of years, with the sufferers losing all hope.<\/span> <\/span><\/p>\nDante: No one knows how long the process will take for any individual. Paul makes no indication. But all these suffering souls know they are saved and will go to heaven eventually. Purgatory is the vestibule to heaven, not hell. You believe we\u2019ll be zapped, and I think it\u2019ll take a bit longer. But there is agreement that some purging takes place.<\/span><\/p>\nPaul: Wow! I never thought of it in that way. But if the Bible teaches this, I can\u2019t disagree with it. Thanks, Dante!<\/span><\/p>\n<\/body><\/html>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"Forest clearing in Alsace, Eastern France. Photo by Jovan Cormac, 6-6-08 [Wikimedia Commons \/\u00a0Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 Unported license] * * * * * (written in 1995) * * *\u00a0 Paul the Presbyterian: Hey Dante! What is this nonsense about purgatory [spoken with a grimace] that you Catholics teach? Haven\u2019t you read that \u201cto […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2331,"featured_media":6392,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[206],"tags":[410,413,411,200,1398,207,209,412],"class_list":["post-6390","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-saints-purgatory-penance","tag-afterlife","tag-hades","tag-intermediate-state","tag-penance","tag-penance-for-the-dead","tag-prayer-for-the-dead","tag-purgatory-2","tag-sheol"],"yoast_head":"\n
Fictional Dialogue on the Catholic Doctrine of Purgatory<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"God is holy & perfect as well as loving. It's more merciful to allow people to be purged of sins after death & reach heaven, than to send them to hell.\" \/>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"noindex, follow\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"en_US\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:type\" content=\"article\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:title\" content=\"Fictional Dialogue on the Catholic Doctrine of Purgatory\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:description\" content=\"God is holy & perfect as well as loving. 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Dave\u2019s apologetics and writing apostolate was the subject of a feature article in the May 2002 issue of \\\"Envoy Magazine.\\\" He served as the staff moderator at the Internet discussion forum for The Coming Home Network, from 2007-2010. Dave has been interviewed on many nationally syndicated Catholic radio shows, including \\\"Catholic Answers Live\\\" (twice), \\\"Faith and Family Live\\\" (Steve Wood), \\\"Kresta in the Afternoon,\\\" \\\"Son Rise Morning Show,\\\" \\\"Catholic Connection\\\" (Teresa Tomeo), and \\\"The Catholics Next Door.\\\" His large and popular website, \\\"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism,\\\" was online from March 1997 to March 2007, and received the 1998 Catholic Website of the Year award from \\\"Envoy Magazine.\\\" His blog of the same name (now transferred to Patheos), begun in February 2004, contains more than 1,500 papers, at least 500 debates or dialogues, and over 50 distinct \\\"index\\\" web pages. Unsolicited correspondence has indicated many hundreds of conversions (or returns) to the Catholic faith as a result, by God's grace, of these writings. Dave's conversion story was published in the bestselling book \\\"Surprised by Truth\\\" (edited by Patrick Madrid; San Diego: Basilica Press, 1994). Sophia Institute Press has published six of his books: \\\"A Biblical Defense of Catholicism\\\" (Foreword by Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J., 1996 \/ 2003), \\\"The Catholic Verses\\\" (2004), \\\"The One-Minute Apologist\\\" (2007), \\\"Bible Proofs for Catholic Truths\\\" (2009), \\\"The Quotable Newman\\\" (editor: 2012), and \\\"Proving the Catholic Faith is Biblical\\\" (2015). He is co-author (with Dr. Paul Thigpen) of the inserts for \\\"The New Catholic Answer Bible\\\" (Our Sunday Visitor: 2005), and editor for \\\"The Wisdom of Mr. Chesterton: The Very Best Quotes, Quips, and Cracks from the Pen of G. K. Chesterton\\\" (Saint Benedict Press \/ TAN Books: 2009). \\\"100 Biblical Arguments Against Sola Scriptura\\\" was published by Catholic Answers in May 2012. His \\\"Quotable Wesley\\\" compilation was published by (Protestant \/ Wesleyan publisher) Beacon Hill Press in April 2014. Several of his 49 books are bestsellers in their field. Dave maintains a popular personal Facebook page, a Facebook author page, and has a Twitter account as well. He offers almost all of his books in e-book form on his own Biblical Catholicism site (http:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/), at a permanent deep discount: only $2.99 for ePub, mobi, and AZW, and $1.99 for PDF. His writing has been enthusiastically endorsed or recommended by many leading Catholic apologists, authors, and priests, including Dr. Scott Hahn, Fr. Peter M. J. Stravinskas, Marcus Grodi, Patrick Madrid, Steve Ray, Tim Staples, Devin Rose, Mike Aquilina, Al Kresta, Karl Keating, Fr. Dwight Longenecker, Brandon Vogt, Marcellino D'Ambrosio, and Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave has been happily married to his wife Judy since October 1984. They have three sons and a daughter, and reside in southeast Michigan (metro Detroit).\",\"sameAs\":[\"https:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/\",\"https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/dave.armstrong.798\",\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/@LuxVeritatisApologetics\"],\"url\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/author\/davearmstrong\"}]}<\/script>\n<!-- \/ Yoast SEO plugin. -->","yoast_head_json":{"title":"Fictional Dialogue on the Catholic Doctrine of Purgatory","description":"God is holy & perfect as well as loving. 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Formerly a campus missionary, as a Protestant, Dave was received into the Catholic Church in February 1991, by the late, well-known catechist and theologian, Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave\u2019s articles have appeared in many influential Catholic periodicals, including \"This Rock\" (now called \"Catholic Answers Magazine\"), \"Envoy Magazine\" (Patrick Madrid), \"The Catholic Answer,\" \"The Coming Home Journal,\" \"Gilbert Magazine\" (American Chesterton Society), and \"The Latin Mass.\" He also writes a featured column for every issue of \"The Michigan Catholic\": published by the archdiocese of Detroit, and was editor for most of the apologetics tracts published by the St. Paul Street Evangelization apostolate. Dave\u2019s apologetics and writing apostolate was the subject of a feature article in the May 2002 issue of \"Envoy Magazine.\" He served as the staff moderator at the Internet discussion forum for The Coming Home Network, from 2007-2010. Dave has been interviewed on many nationally syndicated Catholic radio shows, including \"Catholic Answers Live\" (twice), \"Faith and Family Live\" (Steve Wood), \"Kresta in the Afternoon,\" \"Son Rise Morning Show,\" \"Catholic Connection\" (Teresa Tomeo), and \"The Catholics Next Door.\" His large and popular website, \"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism,\" was online from March 1997 to March 2007, and received the 1998 Catholic Website of the Year award from \"Envoy Magazine.\" His blog of the same name (now transferred to Patheos), begun in February 2004, contains more than 1,500 papers, at least 500 debates or dialogues, and over 50 distinct \"index\" web pages. Unsolicited correspondence has indicated many hundreds of conversions (or returns) to the Catholic faith as a result, by God's grace, of these writings. Dave's conversion story was published in the bestselling book \"Surprised by Truth\" (edited by Patrick Madrid; San Diego: Basilica Press, 1994). Sophia Institute Press has published six of his books: \"A Biblical Defense of Catholicism\" (Foreword by Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J., 1996 \/ 2003), \"The Catholic Verses\" (2004), \"The One-Minute Apologist\" (2007), \"Bible Proofs for Catholic Truths\" (2009), \"The Quotable Newman\" (editor: 2012), and \"Proving the Catholic Faith is Biblical\" (2015). He is co-author (with Dr. Paul Thigpen) of the inserts for \"The New Catholic Answer Bible\" (Our Sunday Visitor: 2005), and editor for \"The Wisdom of Mr. Chesterton: The Very Best Quotes, Quips, and Cracks from the Pen of G. K. Chesterton\" (Saint Benedict Press \/ TAN Books: 2009). \"100 Biblical Arguments Against Sola Scriptura\" was published by Catholic Answers in May 2012. His \"Quotable Wesley\" compilation was published by (Protestant \/ Wesleyan publisher) Beacon Hill Press in April 2014. Several of his 49 books are bestsellers in their field. Dave maintains a popular personal Facebook page, a Facebook author page, and has a Twitter account as well. He offers almost all of his books in e-book form on his own Biblical Catholicism site (http:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/), at a permanent deep discount: only $2.99 for ePub, mobi, and AZW, and $1.99 for PDF. His writing has been enthusiastically endorsed or recommended by many leading Catholic apologists, authors, and priests, including Dr. Scott Hahn, Fr. Peter M. J. Stravinskas, Marcus Grodi, Patrick Madrid, Steve Ray, Tim Staples, Devin Rose, Mike Aquilina, Al Kresta, Karl Keating, Fr. Dwight Longenecker, Brandon Vogt, Marcellino D'Ambrosio, and Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave has been happily married to his wife Judy since October 1984. They have three sons and a daughter, and reside in southeast Michigan (metro Detroit).","sameAs":["https:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/","https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/dave.armstrong.798","https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/@LuxVeritatisApologetics"],"url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/author\/davearmstrong"}]}},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/6390","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/2331"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=6390"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/6390\/revisions"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/6392"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=6390"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=6390"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=6390"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}
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