\n
* * *<\/p>\n
This is an exchange with a person on the CHNI forum who has a Lutheran background. His words will be in<\/span> blue<\/span>.<\/span><\/p>\n* * * * *<\/p>\n<\/div>\n
\n
I have a question about saints and whether they can hear our prayers. What is the logic that they can? The standard answers of \u201cthey\u2019re not dead, they are alive in heaven\u201d and such don\u2019t really carry much weight.<\/span><\/p>\nI have asked several quite knowledgeable converts and haven\u2019t gotten an answer that makes sense yet to me (and perhaps may have to take it on faith). The best answer I know of comes from Thomas Aquinas, but I wasn\u2019t really satisfied with his answers (although they were pretty dang good nonetheless). <\/span><\/p>\nIf anyone has any advice on how they overcome this doctrinal hurdle, I\u2019d appreciate it. Remember, I\u2019m not denying that departed saints pray for us. I\u2019m most certain that they do. I\u2019m saying that I don\u2019t see much scriptural or speculative reasoning that supports saints <\/span>hearing<\/b> our prayers. <\/span>Also, the only proof I may end up accepting at the end of the day is \u201cbecause the Church has always taught that they do.\u201d I may be cool with this answer at some point.<\/span><\/span><\/p>\nBut it would be nice to hear consistent reasoning. Other proofs I would end up accepting are testimonies of people who have prayed to saints and something miraculous happened because of such prayers. If someone could recommend a good book relating such experiences, I\u2019d appreciate it too (this would include Marian related events\/experiences as well).<\/span><\/p>\n<\/div>\n* * *<\/div>\n
I got the \u201cwhy\u201d a departed saint would communicate or pray for us. It\u2019s perfected love. I get that. I would want to pray for all the suffering and fellow travelers as well if I could. But I can\u2019t. I can only pray for those that ask me to pray for them or for those I\u2019m aware of. Both of which require some sort of knowledge, directly or indirectly, of particular persons.
\n<\/span><\/div>\n<\/div>\n
[I provided some basic arguments, from a few of my papers, including Hebrews 12:1 and Revelation 6:9-10]<\/span><\/div>\n*<\/div>\n
<\/div>\n
\n
Thanks for your thoughts and your resources. I\u2019ll check them out. I still don\u2019t have a consistent argument for how saints hear<\/b> our prayers. As you pointed out, I do not doubt that saints are aware of things that are going on in our present reality. The spectators\/witnesses word study reference spoke to this fact. And as discussed before, we know that these departed saints are praying for us.<\/span><\/p>\nIt simply requires a higher level of knowledge than we have presently. One does not have to have all knowledge in order to have the particular knowledge of \u201chearing\u201d a prayer.<\/span>
\n
\n<\/span>You mentioned that saints are perfected in knowledge (this perhaps could imply the ability to read or hear thoughts). Can this be scripturally proven? If not, I still am not sold on scriptural evidence for departed saints hearing our prayers.<\/span><\/p>\nI couldn\u2019t explain all the mechanics of how it works but I know that Scripture says that we will be \u201clike\u201d God in the afterlife:<\/span><\/p>\n1 John 3:2<\/b> (RSV) Beloved, we are God\u2019s children now; it does not yet appear what we shall be, but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.<\/span><\/p><\/blockquote>\nThis piece of scripture combined with the Thomas argument in the Summa<\/span> [that someone else offered] seems to be the most consistent approach. Thank you for pointing out this piece of scripture. It was VERY helpful to understanding the validity of this practice.<\/span>
\n<\/span><\/p>\n<\/div>\n* * *<\/span><\/div>\n
\n<\/span>Testimony of communication living saints and departed saints seems to be my only avenue. Along with \u201cbecause it\u2019s what the Church teaches, so love it or leave it:).\u201d If you have some further explanation though, I\u2019m really interested.<\/span><\/p>\n[I then provided several much more in-depth arguments from several of my papers on the general topic]<\/span><\/div>\n*<\/span><\/div>\n<\/div>\n
\n
Thanks for taking the time with me, Dave. And would love to hear any further thoughts you might have.<\/span><\/p>\nYou\u2019re very welcome, and I hope this further elaboration of my arguments is helpful to you and others.<\/span><\/p>\nThe other examples you gave from your papers aren\u2019t as convincing (hey, everyone can\u2019t be Thomas Aquinas! Don\u2019t feel bad:) And most importantly they weren\u2019t convincing to me, but I\u2019m sure that they have been quite effective in apologetics with others. The main point has to do with the \u201cwho\u201d and the \u201cwhat\u201d and the \u201chow.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\nWhatever works! In apologetics, pragmatism has a place. Some stuff works in persuading some, other stuff in persuading others. The more arguments we can throw out, I figure, the better chance one will \u201cstick.\u201d And with you, one did! Oftentimes, just one is enough to convince someone.<\/span><\/p>\nIn all the examples from scripture that you provided (and to me honest others have pointed them out to me too), there is a retort to dispute what you are trying to point out.<\/span><\/p>\nAnd there is usually a counter-reply, too, which is what I\u2019ll attempt to do now. Some of my arguments you have misunderstood a bit, as to their exact nature<\/i>. We want to be sure to reject the actual arguments that are made. That is why further dialogue or clarification is always a good thing, to make sure everyone is on the same wavelength.<\/span><\/p>\nRevelation has saints serving as priests with incense, not necessarily hearing prayers.<\/span><\/p>\nIt\u2019s not just incense; it is incense as a metaphor for actual prayer <\/i>(just as in the Mass). But you dichotomize one against the other. I submit that the biblical texts do not do that. In Revelation 5:8, the \u201ctwenty-four elders\u201d (usually regarded by commentators as dead human beings) \u201cfell down before the Lamb . . . with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.\u201d They appear to have other people\u2019s prayers, to present to God. So the obvious question is: what are they doing<\/i> with them? Why does Revelation present dead saints presenting the prayers of other saints to God?<\/span><\/p>\nIf they have<\/i> them, it stands to reason as a rather straightforward deduction, that they heard <\/i>the initial prayers as well, or at least were granted knowledge<\/i> of them in some fashion, granted ultimately through the power of God. Revelation 8:3-4 is even more explicit. Rather than equate incense and prayers, it actually distinguishes between them, and presents the scenario that the prayers and incense are presented together:<\/span><\/p>\n<\/div>\nAnd another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; [4] and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God.<\/ul>\n\n
So the question, again, is: what is this angel doing with \u201cprayers of the saints\u201d \u2014 presenting them to God? It seems clear to me that they have heard the prayers, and are involved as intercessors. Angels are extremely intelligent beings. We know that they rejoice when a sinner repents. They have knowledge in ways that we do not; above our comprehension.<\/span><\/p>\nSamuel utilizes a medium to create contact. He did not pray directly.<\/span><\/p>\nThe argument is more indirect and nuanced than that. In many of these proofs, one element of the practice of intercession of the saints may be present, while another is missing. That is the case here. You asked about how dead saints can hear our prayers. In this instance, Saul went about trying to contact the dead the wrong way: through a medium. But the fact remains that somehow Samuel knew<\/i> about this (\u201cheard\u201d it) and actually appeared to Saul. He communicated to him.<\/span><\/p>\nThis shows that there is an awareness and ability to \u201chear\u201d and to communicate back to a person on the earth. If, on the other hand, God desired no communication whatever between heaven and earth, then this and several other similar incidents (Transfiguration, etc,) simply would not have occurred, since they would have been out of God\u2019s will, and hence, not permitted by Him. So this incident serves as evidence that dead saints can hear petitions from people on earth, and that God permits two-way communication. Protestants often deny both those aspects.<\/span><\/p>\nAngels are not departed human beings; they are separate creations, so it isn\u2019t really the same thing.<\/span><\/p>\nThey are relevant insofar as they, too, are creatures, and not God. Angels are involved in intercession just as dead human beings are. Protestants often oppose the very notion, but they do so against biblical evidence.<\/span><\/p>\nThe Transfiguration involves Christ speaking with the others. He is God, so this makes sense. We are not.<\/span><\/p>\nIf God wanted no contact of dead saints with the earth at all, why would he allow Moses and Elijah to appear within sight of men (Matthew 17:3)? It is true that the text doesn\u2019t show Peter or James or John (17:1) speaking<\/i> to Moses or Elijah, but it doesn\u2019t say they did not<\/i> do so, either. It is within the realm of possibility. But it demonstrates in any event, that God does not rule out such encounters.<\/span><\/p>\nThe two witnesses in Revelation 11 (thought by many to be Moses and Elijah again, or Moses and Enoch) do<\/i> certainly talk to many, since they \u201cprophesy\u201d (11:3) for three-and-a-half years, and give \u201ctestimony\u201d (11:7). If they can talk to men, then by cross-referencing similar Scriptures, Moses and Elijah possibly talked to men on the Mount of Transfiguration. We compare the less-clear Scripture with the relatively more clear and explicit.<\/span><\/p>\nThe same quite possible deduction applies to Matthew 27:52-53:<\/span><\/p>\n<\/div>\nthe tombs also were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, [53] and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many.<\/ul>\n\n
It doesn\u2019t say they talked to people, but \u201cappeared\u201d does not rule it out, and, I contend, implies communication, just as Jesus \u201cappeared\u201d after His Resurrection and talked to His disciples (cf. e.g., Mk 16:9, 12, 14; Lk 24:34; Acts 13:31; 1 Cor 15:5-8). Thus, it would be another instance of dead men communicating to those of us on earth, which is consistent<\/i> with (not an absolute proof <\/i>of, in all respects) the notion of asking dead saints to pray for us because it shows the possibility of communication between those on earth and dead saints.<\/span>Luke 16 has two dead people talking to each other. This is different than you or I speaking to a departed saint.<\/span><\/p>\nThat\u2019s true, but I wasn\u2019t trying to deny the difference in the first place. It is still relevant to this discussion insofar as the rich man was praying to or petitioning Abraham. That is not supposed to happen, according to Protestant categories, since prayer is supposed to go straight to God. That would apply to dead men as well as ones on the earth. Why would they be doing this rather than going to God? He is specifically making a request <\/i>of Abraham<\/i>, not merely asking him to pray for him to God (much as Catholics ask the Blessed Virgin Mary to fulfill requests). As I wrote before: \u201cAbraham refuses his requests twice, thus showing that dead men can play a part, in conjunction with God, even in turning down (or by implication, also fulfilling) prayer requests.\u201d That is Catholic thinking; not Protestant.<\/span><\/p>\nNote also the element in Luke 16:27-31, where the rich man asks that Lazarus be sent to his brothers, to warn them of his own dire fate. Abraham refuses, but he doesn\u2019t rule out the possibility<\/i> of a dead man going back to earth. Thus, again, the supposed \u201cwall\u201d between heaven and earth is made a lot less impenetrable than Protestant thought would have it. These are the presuppositions behind<\/i> the Catholic belief on the communion and intercession of the saints. You seem to be looking for exact correspondence of every aspect of the argument (which is often the Protestant mindset, since explicit biblical proofs are often unreasonably demanded), whereas I am proving different parts of the whole with each example: making a cumulative argument for Catholic practices.<\/span><\/p>\nIn Acts 9:40 Peter is not praying to the dead woman. The scripture says he is praying AND THEN says Tabitha Arise. Two actions, not one.<\/span><\/p>\nPrayer is communication between two beings. If one says that we cannot: 1) talk to a dead person, or 2) that the dead person couldn\u2019t hear us anyway, even if we did, then this passage disproves both things (and both are premises of invocation of the saints). Peter talked to a dead person (Tabitha) and she heard because she followed his \u201ccommand\u201d and came back to life. Jesus does the same with Lazarus. The fact that Jesus said that His disciples could raise the dead opens up the possibility of many such cases.<\/span><\/p>\nHonestly, I don\u2019t think this can be proved Sola Scriptura consistently.<\/span> <\/span><\/p>\nIt\u2019s being proved with an inspired Scripture that provides all the necessary root assumptions. These are then reflected upon and fleshed out and developed by Tradition and the Church.<\/span><\/p>\nI think the only way this can be proved is through Thomas\u2019 logic and 1 John 3:2. In other words, teaching outside of scripture is necessary to fully grasp and promote the idea. And obviously. The BEST proof as far as I\u2019m concerned is experiential proof provided by testimony.<\/span><\/p>\nAs I said above, different things persuade different people. I happen to think that all the arguments I provide, taken together, provide pretty strong evidence that the practice is not only not against<\/i> Scripture, but that it is supported<\/i> by Scripture in all of its particulars, from the cumulative evidence. It won\u2019t convince everyone, but I still contend that it is a good argument, when all the different aspects of it are considered together.<\/span><\/p>\n<\/div>\n***<\/p>\n<\/body><\/html>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"
The Synaxis of the holy and the most praiseworthy Twelve Apostles. Russia: 14th century [public domain \/ Wikimedia Commons] (2-14-10) * * * This is an exchange with a person on the CHNI forum who has a Lutheran background. His words will be in blue. * * * * * I have a question about […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2331,"featured_media":6543,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[206],"tags":[201,371,372],"class_list":["post-6541","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-saints-purgatory-penance","tag-communion-of-saints","tag-intercession-of-the-saints","tag-invocation-of-saints"],"yoast_head":"\n
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Formerly a campus missionary, as a Protestant, Dave was received into the Catholic Church in February 1991, by the late, well-known catechist and theologian, Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave\u2019s articles have appeared in many influential Catholic periodicals, including \\\"This Rock\\\" (now called \\\"Catholic Answers Magazine\\\"), \\\"Envoy Magazine\\\" (Patrick Madrid), \\\"The Catholic Answer,\\\" \\\"The Coming Home Journal,\\\" \\\"Gilbert Magazine\\\" (American Chesterton Society), and \\\"The Latin Mass.\\\" He also writes a featured column for every issue of \\\"The Michigan Catholic\\\": published by the archdiocese of Detroit, and was editor for most of the apologetics tracts published by the St. Paul Street Evangelization apostolate. Dave\u2019s apologetics and writing apostolate was the subject of a feature article in the May 2002 issue of \\\"Envoy Magazine.\\\" He served as the staff moderator at the Internet discussion forum for The Coming Home Network, from 2007-2010. Dave has been interviewed on many nationally syndicated Catholic radio shows, including \\\"Catholic Answers Live\\\" (twice), \\\"Faith and Family Live\\\" (Steve Wood), \\\"Kresta in the Afternoon,\\\" \\\"Son Rise Morning Show,\\\" \\\"Catholic Connection\\\" (Teresa Tomeo), and \\\"The Catholics Next Door.\\\" His large and popular website, \\\"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism,\\\" was online from March 1997 to March 2007, and received the 1998 Catholic Website of the Year award from \\\"Envoy Magazine.\\\" His blog of the same name (now transferred to Patheos), begun in February 2004, contains more than 1,500 papers, at least 500 debates or dialogues, and over 50 distinct \\\"index\\\" web pages. Unsolicited correspondence has indicated many hundreds of conversions (or returns) to the Catholic faith as a result, by God's grace, of these writings. Dave's conversion story was published in the bestselling book \\\"Surprised by Truth\\\" (edited by Patrick Madrid; San Diego: Basilica Press, 1994). Sophia Institute Press has published six of his books: \\\"A Biblical Defense of Catholicism\\\" (Foreword by Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J., 1996 \/ 2003), \\\"The Catholic Verses\\\" (2004), \\\"The One-Minute Apologist\\\" (2007), \\\"Bible Proofs for Catholic Truths\\\" (2009), \\\"The Quotable Newman\\\" (editor: 2012), and \\\"Proving the Catholic Faith is Biblical\\\" (2015). He is co-author (with Dr. Paul Thigpen) of the inserts for \\\"The New Catholic Answer Bible\\\" (Our Sunday Visitor: 2005), and editor for \\\"The Wisdom of Mr. Chesterton: The Very Best Quotes, Quips, and Cracks from the Pen of G. K. Chesterton\\\" (Saint Benedict Press \/ TAN Books: 2009). \\\"100 Biblical Arguments Against Sola Scriptura\\\" was published by Catholic Answers in May 2012. His \\\"Quotable Wesley\\\" compilation was published by (Protestant \/ Wesleyan publisher) Beacon Hill Press in April 2014. Several of his 49 books are bestsellers in their field. Dave maintains a popular personal Facebook page, a Facebook author page, and has a Twitter account as well. He offers almost all of his books in e-book form on his own Biblical Catholicism site (http:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/), at a permanent deep discount: only $2.99 for ePub, mobi, and AZW, and $1.99 for PDF. His writing has been enthusiastically endorsed or recommended by many leading Catholic apologists, authors, and priests, including Dr. Scott Hahn, Fr. Peter M. J. Stravinskas, Marcus Grodi, Patrick Madrid, Steve Ray, Tim Staples, Devin Rose, Mike Aquilina, Al Kresta, Karl Keating, Fr. Dwight Longenecker, Brandon Vogt, Marcellino D'Ambrosio, and Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave has been happily married to his wife Judy since October 1984. They have three sons and a daughter, and reside in southeast Michigan (metro Detroit).\",\"sameAs\":[\"https:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/\",\"https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/dave.armstrong.798\",\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/@LuxVeritatisApologetics\"],\"url\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/author\/davearmstrong\"}]}<\/script>\n<!-- \/ Yoast SEO plugin. -->","yoast_head_json":{"title":"Invocation of Saints & the Bible: Dialogue","description":"What are angels doing with \"prayers of the saints\": presented to God? 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Formerly a campus missionary, as a Protestant, Dave was received into the Catholic Church in February 1991, by the late, well-known catechist and theologian, Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave\u2019s articles have appeared in many influential Catholic periodicals, including \"This Rock\" (now called \"Catholic Answers Magazine\"), \"Envoy Magazine\" (Patrick Madrid), \"The Catholic Answer,\" \"The Coming Home Journal,\" \"Gilbert Magazine\" (American Chesterton Society), and \"The Latin Mass.\" He also writes a featured column for every issue of \"The Michigan Catholic\": published by the archdiocese of Detroit, and was editor for most of the apologetics tracts published by the St. Paul Street Evangelization apostolate. Dave\u2019s apologetics and writing apostolate was the subject of a feature article in the May 2002 issue of \"Envoy Magazine.\" He served as the staff moderator at the Internet discussion forum for The Coming Home Network, from 2007-2010. Dave has been interviewed on many nationally syndicated Catholic radio shows, including \"Catholic Answers Live\" (twice), \"Faith and Family Live\" (Steve Wood), \"Kresta in the Afternoon,\" \"Son Rise Morning Show,\" \"Catholic Connection\" (Teresa Tomeo), and \"The Catholics Next Door.\" His large and popular website, \"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism,\" was online from March 1997 to March 2007, and received the 1998 Catholic Website of the Year award from \"Envoy Magazine.\" His blog of the same name (now transferred to Patheos), begun in February 2004, contains more than 1,500 papers, at least 500 debates or dialogues, and over 50 distinct \"index\" web pages. Unsolicited correspondence has indicated many hundreds of conversions (or returns) to the Catholic faith as a result, by God's grace, of these writings. Dave's conversion story was published in the bestselling book \"Surprised by Truth\" (edited by Patrick Madrid; San Diego: Basilica Press, 1994). Sophia Institute Press has published six of his books: \"A Biblical Defense of Catholicism\" (Foreword by Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J., 1996 \/ 2003), \"The Catholic Verses\" (2004), \"The One-Minute Apologist\" (2007), \"Bible Proofs for Catholic Truths\" (2009), \"The Quotable Newman\" (editor: 2012), and \"Proving the Catholic Faith is Biblical\" (2015). He is co-author (with Dr. Paul Thigpen) of the inserts for \"The New Catholic Answer Bible\" (Our Sunday Visitor: 2005), and editor for \"The Wisdom of Mr. Chesterton: The Very Best Quotes, Quips, and Cracks from the Pen of G. K. Chesterton\" (Saint Benedict Press \/ TAN Books: 2009). \"100 Biblical Arguments Against Sola Scriptura\" was published by Catholic Answers in May 2012. His \"Quotable Wesley\" compilation was published by (Protestant \/ Wesleyan publisher) Beacon Hill Press in April 2014. Several of his 49 books are bestsellers in their field. Dave maintains a popular personal Facebook page, a Facebook author page, and has a Twitter account as well. He offers almost all of his books in e-book form on his own Biblical Catholicism site (http:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/), at a permanent deep discount: only $2.99 for ePub, mobi, and AZW, and $1.99 for PDF. His writing has been enthusiastically endorsed or recommended by many leading Catholic apologists, authors, and priests, including Dr. Scott Hahn, Fr. Peter M. J. Stravinskas, Marcus Grodi, Patrick Madrid, Steve Ray, Tim Staples, Devin Rose, Mike Aquilina, Al Kresta, Karl Keating, Fr. Dwight Longenecker, Brandon Vogt, Marcellino D'Ambrosio, and Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave has been happily married to his wife Judy since October 1984. They have three sons and a daughter, and reside in southeast Michigan (metro Detroit).","sameAs":["https:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/","https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/dave.armstrong.798","https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/@LuxVeritatisApologetics"],"url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/author\/davearmstrong"}]}},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/6541","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/2331"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=6541"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/6541\/revisions"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/6543"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=6541"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=6541"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=6541"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}
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