{"id":6752,"date":"2016-04-05T11:06:12","date_gmt":"2016-04-05T15:06:12","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/admin.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/?p=6752"},"modified":"2017-03-01T12:30:01","modified_gmt":"2017-03-01T16:30:01","slug":"my-supposed-hybrid-post-conversion-faith","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2016\/04\/my-supposed-hybrid-post-conversion-faith.html","title":{"rendered":"My Supposed “Hybrid” Post-Conversion Faith"},"content":{"rendered":"\n<\/head>

\u201cNeither Fish Nor Fowl\u201d<\/strong><\/p>\n

\"Mask\"<\/p>\n

Venetian Carnival Mask. Photo by \u201cgnuckx\u201d: 30 May 2010<\/span> [Flickr<\/a> \/ CC BY 2.0<\/a> license]<\/span><\/div>\n
<\/div>\n
(9-19-06)<\/span><\/div>\n
***<\/span><\/div>\n
\u00a0<\/span><\/div>\n
\n

I love these cynical often fact-free analyses of my conversion and supposed ultimate theological commitments. Steve Hays, of<\/span> Triablogue<\/span><\/a> fame (no dummy, though still somehow an anti-Catholic) just doesn\u2019t get it. I don\u2019t think he ever will, because these things are so elementary. Having failed (just like James White) in his attempt to play the \u201cignorance card\u201d with regard to my conversion, he now resorts to what might be called the \u201cchameleon<\/span>\u201d or \u201csheep in wolves\u2019 clothing<\/span>\u201d special pleading rationale, to try to explain away a Catholic convert. I\u2019m not really<\/span> a Catholic, you see. That\u2019s the key. Neither is Scott Hahn (with whom I\u2019m honored to be mentioned in the same sentence). Rather than elaborate further, I\u2019ll simply cite Steve\u2019s words, from<\/span> his post on the topic<\/a>, about yours truly.<\/span><\/p>\n

*****<\/p>\n<\/div>\n

I had written in his comboxes:<\/span><\/p>\n

In the position you are in, it was wise to use evasive humor. If you continue to admit that I may still (possibly) be in a state of grace and refuse to apply the word \u201capostate\u201d (and all the unsavory aspects that conjures up) to me, then you have to deal with your less charitable mates like DJP and no doubt many other fans of yours who think like he does.<\/span><\/p>\n

If you change your mind, then I believe you will have to struggle with a great deal of cognitive dissonance and explain how an apostate unregenerate person can write all the stuff that I write, much of which even you would agree with, including, e.g., my strong defenses of the Bible just last night in responding to Ed Babinski on the \u201clast days\u201d \/ false prophecy issue.<\/span><\/p>\n

So either way, you\u2019d be in the hot seat, now that your mythical scenario of my alleged former blissful ignorance and superficiality was shown to be precisely that: blissfully ignorant and superficial.<\/span><\/p>\n

I don\u2019t fit into the category you thought I was in. And I know that gives you pause, because you are a thoughtful person, and know better than to make the silly quick judgments of folks like DJP (who couldn\u2019t even comprehend my half-jesting reply) and travis, etc.<\/span><\/p>\n

You may not admit this publicly, but it doesn\u2019t take a rocket scientist . . . even this little crack of sorts gives me hope that you can reason your way out of the morass of self-defeating anti-Catholicism some time in the not-too-distant future.<\/span><\/p><\/blockquote>\n

Steve cited that and then<\/span> \u201creplied\u201d<\/a> (all emphases added):<\/span><\/p>\n

2.I also draw a distinction between the laity and the clergy. Someone like Rahner, Raymond Brown, or Benedict XVI is going to be far more self-consciously consistent<\/span> about his theological commitments than the average layman.<\/span><\/p>\n

There are Catholic laymen who, because they\u2019re involved in group Bible studies with their Evangelical friends and coworkers, end up with a personal theology that is more Evangelical than their church<\/span>.<\/span><\/p>\n

3.Apropos (2), many Evangelical immigrants to Rome<\/span> bring along a certain amount of contraband theology<\/span> stashed away in their luggage.<\/span><\/p>\n

As I\u2019ve observed in the past, they are often far more conservative than cradle Catholics or the clergy. Indeed, they\u2019re often at odds with their adopted denomination<\/span>.<\/span><\/p>\n

So guys like Dave Armstrong<\/span> and Scott Hahn present an artificially Evangelicalized version of Roman Catholicism<\/span>.<\/span><\/p>\n

Consider Hahn\u2019s use of covenant theology to defend and explicate Catholic dogma. This is clearly a carryover<\/span> from his Presbyterian past.<\/span><\/p>\n

He\u2019s grafting elements<\/span> of one theological system onto elements of an opposing theological system.<\/span><\/p>\n

So they end up with a sterile hybrid theology that isn\u2019t consistently Catholic<\/span> or Protestant.<\/span><\/p>\n

4.The reason that an apologist like Hahn is successful in bringing Evangelical fence-straddlers over to the Rome fold is precisely the because he has erected an Evangelicaloid bridge<\/span> between the two traditions.<\/span><\/p>\n

When Evangelicals read about his version of Catholicism<\/span>, it looks uncannily familiar<\/span>. A family resemblance. They\u2019ve seen it before. The shock of recognition. A long lost son. Twins separated at birth. This is what we always believed!<\/span><\/p>\n

5.When they present Catholicism, the outside surface of the door has a heavy coat of Evangelical paint<\/span>, while the inside surface of the door has a Catholic coat of paint.<\/span><\/p>\n

Kind of like the Gingerbread house in Hansel and Gretel \u2013 with Evangelical icing, sprinkles, gum drops, M&Ms;, marshmallows<\/span>, and candy canes on the outside, along with a yummy aroma from the chimney.<\/span><\/p><\/blockquote>\n

And later in the comments:<\/p>\n

I don\u2019t read Catholic popularizers and lay apologetes to learn about Catholic theology.<\/span><\/p>\n

I read them to study the bad arguments for Catholicism.<\/span><\/p>\n

. . . The RCC turned its back on the Gospel with the Council of Trent.<\/span><\/p>\n

5. In addition, Vatican II codified modernism<\/span>.<\/span><\/p>\n

. . . there\u2019s nothing to prevent the RCC from going the way of the other liberalizing and dying mainline denominations.<\/span><\/p><\/blockquote>\n

* * * * *<\/span><\/p>\n

This was brought to you for both humorous and educational purposes: I know, it is very funny (while sad at the same time), but we need to know how our evangelical friends regard us (particularly us lowly, \u201chybrid\u201d convert-types). Whatever truth they see in our views, they will tend to say came from Protestantism, but in their ignorance of the extent<\/span> of the common ground between Catholics and Protestants, they often seem to be unable to comprehend that a good thing in Catholic theology might have no particular reference<\/span> to Protestantism, either historically or theologically.<\/span><\/p>\n

So, for example (it\u2019s happened a million times), a person of this perspective might see me defending material sufficiency of Scripture and simply regard that as \u201csola Scriptura light<\/span>.\u201d It is not<\/span>; it is a perfectly Catholic point of view, which doesn\u2019t deny the authority of Tradition or Church in the least. It is assumed that any significant interest in the Bible must be latent Protestantism (particularly, in a convert).<\/span><\/p>\n

Well, in a sense I can say (even with a degree of pride and affection for my past) that my interest in the Bible stemmed from my evangelical experience, because that is where I first learned to love the Bible and cherish and study it (and evangelicalism excels in, and is to be highly commended for, teaching this very thing). It doesn\u2019t follow, however, that Catholicism is \u201canti-Bible,\u201d simply because I learned it there before my conversion, or because your average Protestant is more biblically-literate than your average Catholic. Nor does it follow that everyone who loves the Bible must be a closet proponent of sola Scriptura<\/span>.<\/span><\/p>\n

Nothing \u2013 repeat, NOTHING<\/span> I do or believe now is inconsistent with magisterial Catholicism in the least. I may emphasize the Bible relatively more, because:<\/span><\/p>\n

1) it is true that I do love to do Bible study,<\/span><\/p>\n

and<\/span><\/p>\n

2) this is the language that reaches Protestants, who constitute my primary \u201ctarget audience\u201d for my apologetics.<\/span><\/p><\/blockquote>\n

But that is altogether a \u201cCatholic thing\u201d as well as a \u201cProtestant thing.\u201d Catholics have defended the faith from the Bible since Christian time immemorial (see the Fathers). It\u2019s the same with sola gratia<\/span>, which we fully believe. Catholics aren\u2019t Pelagians. When we say we are saved by God\u2019s grace and it alone, we aren\u2019t closet evangelicals, or ignorant Catholics, but good, Tridentine Catholics. We don\u2019t even have to deny all soteriological imputation altogether or some measure of \u201cfaith alone.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

Or I may write about God\u2019s providence and predestination: both very Catholic things. I may defend the Holy Trinity or the Two Natures of Jesus, or evangelize, or go to prayer meetings, or seek mystical experiences with God, or be a charismatic, or feed the hungry. Ditto. It\u2019s all \u201cCatholic.\u201d I\u2019m a Catholic<\/span>. I accept all<\/span> that the Church teaches; all<\/span> her dogmas<\/span>, and in fact, I believe (following my mentor Fr. Hardon and statements in St. Thomas Aquinas and Cardinal Newman) that anyone who doubts any dogma of the Catholic faith has lost the supernatural virtue of faith.<\/span><\/p>\n

That\u2019s what I am. Now Steve can play games with the \u201cignorant Catholic who makes it to salvation despite the Church, blah blah blah\u201d card all he likes, but it won\u2019t work with me. I was no ignorant Protestant, and I am no cafeteria Catholic. He tried to make out that I was a stupid Protestant, and now an equally clueless Catholic who doesn\u2019t know the teachings of his own Church. It\u2019s a losing, desperate effort. He\u2019ll deny implying this out of one side of his mouth, yet anyone can see what he is driving at in this present post.<\/span><\/p>\n

Give it up, Steve. I know you said you liked me as a person and you seem most reluctant to label me as an apostate. It\u2019s good to be charitable and nuanced, but your anti-Catholic view (not Protestantism per se<\/span>, but only the fringe anti-Catholic aspect of a tiny group of Protestants) demands<\/span> the charge of apostasy in my case. I willfully rejected certain false teachings of Protestantism (while continuing to joyfully acknowledge many more things that we both hold in common) and accepted the complete teaching of the Catholic Church with sufficient understanding and full consent of the will (and, I might add, great joy).<\/span><\/p>\n

Therefore, based on your belief that the Catholic Church is \u201can apostate denomination\u201d (stated later in this same paper), I MUST<\/span> be an apostate (at least in a \u201ctheological, doctrinal\u201d outward sense), since I accept all that teaching (and I understand perfectly well what it is that I accept: not in the sense of exhaustive knowledge, of course, but in terms of the particular tenets and doctrines that Catholics are required to accept and believe in faith). There is no logical way out of this. That\u2019s why I said that your anti-Catholicism will cause you cognitive dissonance somewhere down the line. But the \u201chybrid\u201d sophistry is obviously the way you rationalize seeming difficulties in explaining how folks who obviously love the Bible and know a bit of theology, like myself and Scott Hahn, can manage to merge that with allegiance to Catholicism.<\/span><\/p>\n

It\u2019s because it\u2019s fully Christian<\/span>, my friend . . . the sooner you grasp that, the better off you\u2019ll be. You may disagree with this, that, and the other (just as you do with your hundreds of fellow Protestant denominations), but it is a Christian system<\/span>. And unless it is regarded as that, there is no possible logical way to regard Protestantism as a Christian system. It is either both or neither. The true \u201chybrid\u201d here, therefore, is your viciously self-defeating, ludicrous anti-Catholicism, not the allegiance of a former evangelical Protestant to Catholicism in its fullness and entirety.<\/span><\/p>\n<\/body><\/html>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

\u201cNeither Fish Nor Fowl\u201d Venetian Carnival Mask. Photo by \u201cgnuckx\u201d: 30 May 2010 [Flickr \/ CC BY 2.0 license] (9-19-06) *** \u00a0 I love these cynical often fact-free analyses of my conversion and supposed ultimate theological commitments. Steve Hays, of Triablogue fame (no dummy, though still somehow an anti-Catholic) just doesn\u2019t get it. I don\u2019t […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2331,"featured_media":6754,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[231,5],"tags":[2361,341,2334,2335,47],"class_list":["post-6752","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-anti-catholicism","category-catholic-conversion","tag-anti-catholicism","tag-anti-catholics","tag-catholic-conversion","tag-catholic-converts","tag-sola-scriptura"],"yoast_head":"\nMy Supposed "Hybrid" Post-Conversion Faith<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"Having failed in attempts to play the "ignorance card" anti-Catholics resort to the "chameleon" or "sheep in wolves' clothing" special pleading rationale.\" \/>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"noindex, follow\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"en_US\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:type\" content=\"article\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:title\" 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Dave\u2019s apologetics and writing apostolate was the subject of a feature article in the May 2002 issue of \\\"Envoy Magazine.\\\" He served as the staff moderator at the Internet discussion forum for The Coming Home Network, from 2007-2010. Dave has been interviewed on many nationally syndicated Catholic radio shows, including \\\"Catholic Answers Live\\\" (twice), \\\"Faith and Family Live\\\" (Steve Wood), \\\"Kresta in the Afternoon,\\\" \\\"Son Rise Morning Show,\\\" \\\"Catholic Connection\\\" (Teresa Tomeo), and \\\"The Catholics Next Door.\\\" His large and popular website, \\\"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism,\\\" was online from March 1997 to March 2007, and received the 1998 Catholic Website of the Year award from \\\"Envoy Magazine.\\\" His blog of the same name (now transferred to Patheos), begun in February 2004, contains more than 1,500 papers, at least 500 debates or dialogues, and over 50 distinct \\\"index\\\" web pages. Unsolicited correspondence has indicated many hundreds of conversions (or returns) to the Catholic faith as a result, by God's grace, of these writings. Dave's conversion story was published in the bestselling book \\\"Surprised by Truth\\\" (edited by Patrick Madrid; San Diego: Basilica Press, 1994). Sophia Institute Press has published six of his books: \\\"A Biblical Defense of Catholicism\\\" (Foreword by Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J., 1996 \/ 2003), \\\"The Catholic Verses\\\" (2004), \\\"The One-Minute Apologist\\\" (2007), \\\"Bible Proofs for Catholic Truths\\\" (2009), \\\"The Quotable Newman\\\" (editor: 2012), and \\\"Proving the Catholic Faith is Biblical\\\" (2015). He is co-author (with Dr. Paul Thigpen) of the inserts for \\\"The New Catholic Answer Bible\\\" (Our Sunday Visitor: 2005), and editor for \\\"The Wisdom of Mr. Chesterton: The Very Best Quotes, Quips, and Cracks from the Pen of G. K. Chesterton\\\" (Saint Benedict Press \/ TAN Books: 2009). \\\"100 Biblical Arguments Against Sola Scriptura\\\" was published by Catholic Answers in May 2012. His \\\"Quotable Wesley\\\" compilation was published by (Protestant \/ Wesleyan publisher) Beacon Hill Press in April 2014. Several of his 49 books are bestsellers in their field. Dave maintains a popular personal Facebook page, a Facebook author page, and has a Twitter account as well. He offers almost all of his books in e-book form on his own Biblical Catholicism site (http:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/), at a permanent deep discount: only $2.99 for ePub, mobi, and AZW, and $1.99 for PDF. His writing has been enthusiastically endorsed or recommended by many leading Catholic apologists, authors, and priests, including Dr. Scott Hahn, Fr. Peter M. J. Stravinskas, Marcus Grodi, Patrick Madrid, Steve Ray, Tim Staples, Devin Rose, Mike Aquilina, Al Kresta, Karl Keating, Fr. Dwight Longenecker, Brandon Vogt, Marcellino D'Ambrosio, and Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave has been happily married to his wife Judy since October 1984. 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Formerly a campus missionary, as a Protestant, Dave was received into the Catholic Church in February 1991, by the late, well-known catechist and theologian, Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave\u2019s articles have appeared in many influential Catholic periodicals, including \"This Rock\" (now called \"Catholic Answers Magazine\"), \"Envoy Magazine\" (Patrick Madrid), \"The Catholic Answer,\" \"The Coming Home Journal,\" \"Gilbert Magazine\" (American Chesterton Society), and \"The Latin Mass.\" He also writes a featured column for every issue of \"The Michigan Catholic\": published by the archdiocese of Detroit, and was editor for most of the apologetics tracts published by the St. Paul Street Evangelization apostolate. Dave\u2019s apologetics and writing apostolate was the subject of a feature article in the May 2002 issue of \"Envoy Magazine.\" He served as the staff moderator at the Internet discussion forum for The Coming Home Network, from 2007-2010. Dave has been interviewed on many nationally syndicated Catholic radio shows, including \"Catholic Answers Live\" (twice), \"Faith and Family Live\" (Steve Wood), \"Kresta in the Afternoon,\" \"Son Rise Morning Show,\" \"Catholic Connection\" (Teresa Tomeo), and \"The Catholics Next Door.\" His large and popular website, \"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism,\" was online from March 1997 to March 2007, and received the 1998 Catholic Website of the Year award from \"Envoy Magazine.\" His blog of the same name (now transferred to Patheos), begun in February 2004, contains more than 1,500 papers, at least 500 debates or dialogues, and over 50 distinct \"index\" web pages. Unsolicited correspondence has indicated many hundreds of conversions (or returns) to the Catholic faith as a result, by God's grace, of these writings. Dave's conversion story was published in the bestselling book \"Surprised by Truth\" (edited by Patrick Madrid; San Diego: Basilica Press, 1994). Sophia Institute Press has published six of his books: \"A Biblical Defense of Catholicism\" (Foreword by Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J., 1996 \/ 2003), \"The Catholic Verses\" (2004), \"The One-Minute Apologist\" (2007), \"Bible Proofs for Catholic Truths\" (2009), \"The Quotable Newman\" (editor: 2012), and \"Proving the Catholic Faith is Biblical\" (2015). He is co-author (with Dr. Paul Thigpen) of the inserts for \"The New Catholic Answer Bible\" (Our Sunday Visitor: 2005), and editor for \"The Wisdom of Mr. Chesterton: The Very Best Quotes, Quips, and Cracks from the Pen of G. K. Chesterton\" (Saint Benedict Press \/ TAN Books: 2009). \"100 Biblical Arguments Against Sola Scriptura\" was published by Catholic Answers in May 2012. His \"Quotable Wesley\" compilation was published by (Protestant \/ Wesleyan publisher) Beacon Hill Press in April 2014. Several of his 49 books are bestsellers in their field. Dave maintains a popular personal Facebook page, a Facebook author page, and has a Twitter account as well. He offers almost all of his books in e-book form on his own Biblical Catholicism site (http:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/), at a permanent deep discount: only $2.99 for ePub, mobi, and AZW, and $1.99 for PDF. His writing has been enthusiastically endorsed or recommended by many leading Catholic apologists, authors, and priests, including Dr. Scott Hahn, Fr. Peter M. J. Stravinskas, Marcus Grodi, Patrick Madrid, Steve Ray, Tim Staples, Devin Rose, Mike Aquilina, Al Kresta, Karl Keating, Fr. Dwight Longenecker, Brandon Vogt, Marcellino D'Ambrosio, and Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave has been happily married to his wife Judy since October 1984. They have three sons and a daughter, and reside in southeast Michigan (metro Detroit).","sameAs":["https:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/","https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/dave.armstrong.798","https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/@LuxVeritatisApologetics"],"url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/author\/davearmstrong"}]}},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/6752","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/2331"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=6752"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/6752\/revisions"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/6754"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=6752"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=6752"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=6752"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}