{"id":7043,"date":"2016-04-20T10:33:36","date_gmt":"2016-04-20T14:33:36","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/admin.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/?p=7043"},"modified":"2017-02-27T14:48:34","modified_gmt":"2017-02-27T18:48:34","slug":"sola-scriptura-a-fictional-dialogue","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2016\/04\/sola-scriptura-a-fictional-dialogue.html","title":{"rendered":"Sola Scriptura: a Fictional Dialogue"},"content":{"rendered":"\n<\/head>
\"BibleJohn\"<\/div>\n
Gospel\u00a0of John, beginning, King James Version. Photo by John Snyder, 1-18-14<\/span> [Wikimedia Commons<\/a> \/<\/span>\u00a0Creative Commons<\/a> Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 Unported<\/a> license]<\/div>\n
<\/div>\n
\n

(mid-1990s)<\/p>\n

* * * * *<\/p>\n<\/div>\n

Catholics accept Church authority and a reliable, divinely-protected Tradition, whereas Protestants \u201cpick and choose\u201d which traditions are to their own particular denominational taste. This is arbitrary in two ways:<\/span><\/p>\n

1) There is really no cogent, non-arbitrary method for Protestants to determine which tradition is true (e.g., NT Canon) and which is false (e.g., Marian doctrines);<\/span><\/p>\n

2) The notion of \u201cauthority,\u201d where present at all in Protestant ecclesiology, is inadequate for the task of proclaiming \u201cauthoritatively\u201d which tradition is true, and the grounds will be circular<\/i> in any event:<\/span><\/p><\/blockquote>\n

Protestant (P): X is a true, biblical doctrine because it is biblical.<\/span><\/p>\n

Catholic (C): According to which denominational tradition?<\/span><\/p>\n

P: Ours.<\/span><\/p>\n

C: How do you know<\/i> your tradition is true, while others which contradict it are false?<\/span><\/p>\n

P: Because we are the most biblical.<\/span><\/p>\n

C: How do you know yours is the most <\/i>biblical?<\/span><\/p>\n

P: Because our exegesis is the most all-encompassing and consistent, and true to the clear teaching of Scripture.<\/span><\/p>\n

C: But the other Protestant traditions claim the same<\/i> superiority . . .<\/span><\/p>\n

P: I must say in love that they are wrong.<\/span><\/p>\n

C: How do you know they are wrong? I thought that Protestants were supposed to be tolerant of each other\u2019s \u201cdistinctives,\u201d especially in \u201csecondary\u201d issues, yet you are calling fellow brothers in Christ \u201cwrong.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

P: I am compelled to because they have a faulty hermeneutic and exegesis, and I must stand firm for biblical truth.<\/span><\/p>\n

C: How do you know they have a faulty method of interpretation?<\/span><\/p>\n

P: By Scripture and linguistic study, and the consensus of scholarly commentaries, and because R.C. Sproul said so [ :-) ]<\/span><\/p>\n

C: But again, the others claim the same<\/i> prerogative and abilities.<\/span><\/p>\n

P: Then if they are wrong, they must be blinded by their presuppositional biases, or else by sin.<\/span><\/p>\n

C: How do you know that<\/em>?<\/span><\/p>\n

P: Because they come to the wrong conclusions about the perspicuous biblical data.<\/span><\/p>\n

C: Frankly, I would say that that is circular reasoning. But, even granting your contention for the sake of argument, how does an uneducated seeker of Christian truth choose which denomination is true to the Bible?<\/span><\/p>\n

P: The one which is most biblical . . .<\/span><\/p>\n

C: Now, don\u2019t start that<\/i> again [smiling]. They all<\/i> claim that.<\/span><\/p>\n

P: Well, then, the one which is apostolic and has roots in the early Church.<\/span><\/p>\n

C: Then the Fathers must be studied in order to determine who has the early Church, \u201capostolic\u201d tradition?<\/span><\/p>\n

P: Yes, I suppose so<\/span> [frowning].<\/span> <\/span><\/p>\n

C: But what if it is found that the great majority of Fathers have an opinion on doctrine X contrary to yours?<\/span><\/p>\n

P: Then they are wrong on that point.<\/span><\/p>\n

C: How do you know that?<\/span><\/p>\n

P: By studying Scripture.<\/span><\/p>\n

C: So when all is said and done it is irrelevant what the early Church, or the Fathers, or the Church from 500 to 1500 believed?<\/span><\/p>\n

P: Not totally, but I must judge their beliefs from Scripture.<\/span><\/p>\n

C: Therefore you are \u2014 in the final analysis \u2014 the ultimate arbiter of true Christian Tradition?<\/span><\/p>\n

P: Well, if you must put it in those blunt terms, yes.<\/span><\/p>\n

C: Isn\u2019t that a bit arrogant?<\/span><\/p>\n

P: Not as much as the pope and a bunch of celibate old men in red hats and dresses telling me what I should believe<\/span> [scowling].<\/p>\n

C: You make yourself the arbiter of all true Christian doctrine, down to the smallest particular, yet you object to a pope who makes an infallible pronouncement about every hundred years or so!!!! Most remarkable and ironic! I say you are obviously a Super-Pope, then.<\/span><\/p>\n

P: You can say that if you like. We call it the primacy of the individual conscience.<\/span><\/p>\n

C: So you think that your own individual opinion and \u201cconscience\u201d is superior to the combined consensus of hundreds of years of Church history, papal pronouncements, apostolic Tradition, Councils, etc.?<\/span><\/p>\n

P: Yes, because if a doctrine is biblical, I must denounce any tradition of men that is otherwise.<\/span><\/p>\n

C: For that matter, how do you know what the Bible is<\/i>?<\/span><\/p>\n

P: Well, I\u2019ll quote from John Calvin: <\/span><\/p>\n

Scripture is indeed self-authenticated; hence it is not right to subject it to proof and reasoning . . . Illumined by his power, we believe neither by our own nor by anyone else\u2019s judgment that Scripture is from God . . . We seek no proofs, . . . Such, then, is a conviction that requires no reasons . . . I speak of nothing other than what each believer experiences within himself.<\/span><\/p>\n

[Institutes<\/i>, Book I, chapter 7, section 5 \/ vol. 1, pp. 80-81 in Battles\/McNeill edition]<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

C: That seems intrinsically unreasonable, by Calvin\u2019s own stated criteria. Yet you\u2019ve attempted to give me reasons and logic throughout this whole conversation!<\/span><\/p>\n

P: Faith requires no reasons. The Holy Spirit makes it clear.<\/span><\/p>\n

C: Well, that\u2019s a whole \u2018nother ball of wax. But I would say that you would not know what NT Scripture was for sure, if not for the Catholic Church. Calvin\u2019s criteria is essentially no different than the Mormons\u2019 \u201cburning in the bosom\u201d as a justification for their beliefs. Besides, on what grounds<\/i> do you trust Calvin, when he contradicts earlier Church Tradition? Scripture is not self-authenticating, in the sense of its determining the extent and parameters of itself. This is clearly shown in the divergences in the early Church on the question of the NT Canon.<\/span><\/p>\n

P: There was a broad consensus among the Fathers.<\/span><\/p>\n

C: I\u2019ll grant you that . . . very broad. But there is more than enough difference to require an authoritative decree by the Church to put the matter to rest.<\/span><\/p>\n

P: But God guided those Christians specifically because His Word was at stake.<\/span><\/p>\n

C: Oh? First of all, I\u2019m glad to hear that you acknowledge the 4th century Church as \u201cChristians.\u201d Many Calvinists and other Protestants think the Church was already off the rails by then!<\/span><\/p>\n

P: Well, that\u2019s silly, because Chalcedon was a good Council, and that was held in 451. So was Ephesus in 431.<\/span><\/p>\n

C: Good. So you agree that God guided the early Church. But not in all matters?<\/span><\/p>\n

P: No, not when they talked about the papacy, Mary, bishops, the Real Presence, communion of saints, penance, purgatory, infused justification, baptismal regeneration, confession, absolution, apostolic Tradition, apostolic succession, and many other erroneous doctrines.<\/span><\/p>\n

C: How do you know that?<\/span><\/p>\n

P: Because those doctrines clearly aren\u2019t biblical.<\/span><\/p>\n

C: According to which \u201cclear\u201d denominational tradition?<\/span><\/p>\n

P: Ours . . .<\/span><\/p>\n

C: [smacks forehead, then throws hands up and gazes toward the heavens, wincing in despair]<\/span><\/p>\n

*****<\/span><\/p>\n

And so on and so forth. Yet Protestants claim we<\/i> are the ones with an epistemological problem!<\/span><\/p>\n

*****<\/span><\/p>\n

Meta Description: Fictional dialogue on the most controversial &\u00a0central dispute between Catholics &\u00a0Protestants, showing how sola Scriptura is incoherent.<\/span><\/p>\n

Meta Keywords:\u00a0Bible Only, biblical prooftexts, biblical theology, Christian Authority, exegesis, hermeneutics, Holy Bible, infallible authority, Rule of Faith, Sacred Scripture, Scripture Alone, Sola Scriptura \u00a0\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<\/body><\/html>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

Gospel\u00a0of John, beginning, King James Version. Photo by John Snyder, 1-18-14 [Wikimedia Commons \/\u00a0Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 Unported license] (mid-1990s) * * * * * Catholics accept Church authority and a reliable, divinely-protected Tradition, whereas Protestants \u201cpick and choose\u201d which traditions are to their own particular denominational taste. This is arbitrary in two ways: […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2331,"featured_media":7046,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[31],"tags":[514,1879,1878,33,1387,1386,535,1877,32,536,35,47],"class_list":["post-7043","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-bible-and-tradition","tag-bible-only","tag-biblical-prooftexts","tag-biblical-theology","tag-christian-authority","tag-exegesis","tag-hermeneutics","tag-holy-bible","tag-infallible-authority","tag-rule-of-faith","tag-sacred-scripture","tag-scripture-alone","tag-sola-scriptura"],"yoast_head":"\nSola Scriptura: a Fictional Dialogue<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"Fictional dialogue on the most controversial & central dispute between Catholics & Protestants, showing how sola Scriptura is incoherent.\" \/>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, 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1991 (full-time since December 2001). Formerly a campus missionary, as a Protestant, Dave was received into the Catholic Church in February 1991, by the late, well-known catechist and theologian, Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave\u2019s articles have appeared in many influential Catholic periodicals, including \\\"This Rock\\\" (now called \\\"Catholic Answers Magazine\\\"), \\\"Envoy Magazine\\\" (Patrick Madrid), \\\"The Catholic Answer,\\\" \\\"The Coming Home Journal,\\\" \\\"Gilbert Magazine\\\" (American Chesterton Society), and \\\"The Latin Mass.\\\" He also writes a featured column for every issue of \\\"The Michigan Catholic\\\": published by the archdiocese of Detroit, and was editor for most of the apologetics tracts published by the St. Paul Street Evangelization apostolate. Dave\u2019s apologetics and writing apostolate was the subject of a feature article in the May 2002 issue of \\\"Envoy Magazine.\\\" He served as the staff moderator at the Internet discussion forum for The Coming Home Network, from 2007-2010. Dave has been interviewed on many nationally syndicated Catholic radio shows, including \\\"Catholic Answers Live\\\" (twice), \\\"Faith and Family Live\\\" (Steve Wood), \\\"Kresta in the Afternoon,\\\" \\\"Son Rise Morning Show,\\\" \\\"Catholic Connection\\\" (Teresa Tomeo), and \\\"The Catholics Next Door.\\\" His large and popular website, \\\"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism,\\\" was online from March 1997 to March 2007, and received the 1998 Catholic Website of the Year award from \\\"Envoy Magazine.\\\" His blog of the same name (now transferred to Patheos), begun in February 2004, contains more than 1,500 papers, at least 500 debates or dialogues, and over 50 distinct \\\"index\\\" web pages. Unsolicited correspondence has indicated many hundreds of conversions (or returns) to the Catholic faith as a result, by God's grace, of these writings. Dave's conversion story was published in the bestselling book \\\"Surprised by Truth\\\" (edited by Patrick Madrid; San Diego: Basilica Press, 1994). Sophia Institute Press has published six of his books: \\\"A Biblical Defense of Catholicism\\\" (Foreword by Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J., 1996 \/ 2003), \\\"The Catholic Verses\\\" (2004), \\\"The One-Minute Apologist\\\" (2007), \\\"Bible Proofs for Catholic Truths\\\" (2009), \\\"The Quotable Newman\\\" (editor: 2012), and \\\"Proving the Catholic Faith is Biblical\\\" (2015). He is co-author (with Dr. Paul Thigpen) of the inserts for \\\"The New Catholic Answer Bible\\\" (Our Sunday Visitor: 2005), and editor for \\\"The Wisdom of Mr. Chesterton: The Very Best Quotes, Quips, and Cracks from the Pen of G. K. Chesterton\\\" (Saint Benedict Press \/ TAN Books: 2009). \\\"100 Biblical Arguments Against Sola Scriptura\\\" was published by Catholic Answers in May 2012. His \\\"Quotable Wesley\\\" compilation was published by (Protestant \/ Wesleyan publisher) Beacon Hill Press in April 2014. Several of his 49 books are bestsellers in their field. Dave maintains a popular personal Facebook page, a Facebook author page, and has a Twitter account as well. He offers almost all of his books in e-book form on his own Biblical Catholicism site (http:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/), at a permanent deep discount: only $2.99 for ePub, mobi, and AZW, and $1.99 for PDF. His writing has been enthusiastically endorsed or recommended by many leading Catholic apologists, authors, and priests, including Dr. Scott Hahn, Fr. Peter M. J. Stravinskas, Marcus Grodi, Patrick Madrid, Steve Ray, Tim Staples, Devin Rose, Mike Aquilina, Al Kresta, Karl Keating, Fr. Dwight Longenecker, Brandon Vogt, Marcellino D'Ambrosio, and Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave has been happily married to his wife Judy since October 1984. 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Formerly a campus missionary, as a Protestant, Dave was received into the Catholic Church in February 1991, by the late, well-known catechist and theologian, Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave\u2019s articles have appeared in many influential Catholic periodicals, including \"This Rock\" (now called \"Catholic Answers Magazine\"), \"Envoy Magazine\" (Patrick Madrid), \"The Catholic Answer,\" \"The Coming Home Journal,\" \"Gilbert Magazine\" (American Chesterton Society), and \"The Latin Mass.\" He also writes a featured column for every issue of \"The Michigan Catholic\": published by the archdiocese of Detroit, and was editor for most of the apologetics tracts published by the St. Paul Street Evangelization apostolate. Dave\u2019s apologetics and writing apostolate was the subject of a feature article in the May 2002 issue of \"Envoy Magazine.\" He served as the staff moderator at the Internet discussion forum for The Coming Home Network, from 2007-2010. Dave has been interviewed on many nationally syndicated Catholic radio shows, including \"Catholic Answers Live\" (twice), \"Faith and Family Live\" (Steve Wood), \"Kresta in the Afternoon,\" \"Son Rise Morning Show,\" \"Catholic Connection\" (Teresa Tomeo), and \"The Catholics Next Door.\" His large and popular website, \"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism,\" was online from March 1997 to March 2007, and received the 1998 Catholic Website of the Year award from \"Envoy Magazine.\" His blog of the same name (now transferred to Patheos), begun in February 2004, contains more than 1,500 papers, at least 500 debates or dialogues, and over 50 distinct \"index\" web pages. Unsolicited correspondence has indicated many hundreds of conversions (or returns) to the Catholic faith as a result, by God's grace, of these writings. Dave's conversion story was published in the bestselling book \"Surprised by Truth\" (edited by Patrick Madrid; San Diego: Basilica Press, 1994). Sophia Institute Press has published six of his books: \"A Biblical Defense of Catholicism\" (Foreword by Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J., 1996 \/ 2003), \"The Catholic Verses\" (2004), \"The One-Minute Apologist\" (2007), \"Bible Proofs for Catholic Truths\" (2009), \"The Quotable Newman\" (editor: 2012), and \"Proving the Catholic Faith is Biblical\" (2015). He is co-author (with Dr. Paul Thigpen) of the inserts for \"The New Catholic Answer Bible\" (Our Sunday Visitor: 2005), and editor for \"The Wisdom of Mr. Chesterton: The Very Best Quotes, Quips, and Cracks from the Pen of G. K. Chesterton\" (Saint Benedict Press \/ TAN Books: 2009). \"100 Biblical Arguments Against Sola Scriptura\" was published by Catholic Answers in May 2012. His \"Quotable Wesley\" compilation was published by (Protestant \/ Wesleyan publisher) Beacon Hill Press in April 2014. Several of his 49 books are bestsellers in their field. Dave maintains a popular personal Facebook page, a Facebook author page, and has a Twitter account as well. He offers almost all of his books in e-book form on his own Biblical Catholicism site (http:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/), at a permanent deep discount: only $2.99 for ePub, mobi, and AZW, and $1.99 for PDF. His writing has been enthusiastically endorsed or recommended by many leading Catholic apologists, authors, and priests, including Dr. Scott Hahn, Fr. Peter M. J. Stravinskas, Marcus Grodi, Patrick Madrid, Steve Ray, Tim Staples, Devin Rose, Mike Aquilina, Al Kresta, Karl Keating, Fr. Dwight Longenecker, Brandon Vogt, Marcellino D'Ambrosio, and Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave has been happily married to his wife Judy since October 1984. They have three sons and a daughter, and reside in southeast Michigan (metro Detroit).","sameAs":["https:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/","https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/dave.armstrong.798","https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/@LuxVeritatisApologetics"],"url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/author\/davearmstrong"}]}},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/7043","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/2331"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=7043"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/7043\/revisions"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/7046"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=7043"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=7043"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=7043"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}