{"id":70674,"date":"2023-03-05T17:39:51","date_gmt":"2023-03-05T21:39:51","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/?p=70674"},"modified":"2023-03-05T17:39:51","modified_gmt":"2023-03-05T21:39:51","slug":"prayers-to-and-for-the-dead-vs-jason-engwer","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2023\/03\/prayers-to-and-for-the-dead-vs-jason-engwer.html","title":{"rendered":"Prayers to and for the Dead (vs. Jason Engwer)"},"content":{"rendered":"\n<\/head>

Did Jesus & Peter Talk to Dead People Before They Rose from the Dead, and \u2014 Along with Elijah and Elisha \u2014 Pray for the Dead, or Only Ask Them to Move After<\/em> They Were Raised?<\/strong><\/p>\n

\"\"<\/a><\/p>\n

Jason Engwer, who runs the\u00a0Tribalblogue\u00a0<\/em>site, wrote posts entitled, \u201cAgreement Among The Gospels About How Jesus Raised The Dead\u201d<\/a> (5-29-22) and \u201cDid Jesus offer support for praying to the deceased by speaking to people he raised from the dead?\u201d (3-5-23).<\/span><\/a> This is my reply. His words will be in green<\/span> (earlier article) and blue<\/span> (later one).<\/p>\n

*****<\/p>\n

When Jesus raised people from the dead, he would tell the person to move in some manner, probably at least in part to demonstrate that a resurrection had occurred. A description of the person\u2019s movement follows, which suggests that Jesus\u2019 references to \u201crising\u201d and such were about moving the body after<\/strong> a resurrection rather than the resurrection itself<\/em><\/span> (Mark 5:41-42<\/a>,\u00a0Luke 7:14-15<\/a>,\u00a08:54-55<\/a>,\u00a0John 11:43-44<\/a>;\u00a0Matthew 9:25<\/a>\u00a0is in agreement as far as it goes, even mentioning that Jesus took the girl\u2019s hand, but doesn\u2019t say whether Jesus made any comments telling her to move). We see something similar with Peter\u2019s raising of the woman in<\/span>\u00a0Acts 9:40-41<\/a>, perhaps in imitation of what Jesus did, but the other resurrections referred to in the Old and New Testaments don\u2019t involve any such scenario<\/span> (1 Kings 17:21-23<\/a>,\u00a02 Kings 4:34-37<\/a>,\u00a02 Kings 13:21<\/a>,\u00a0Matthew 27:52-53<\/a>,\u00a0Acts 20:10<\/a>,\u00a0Revelation 11:11<\/a>). [italics and bolding my own]<\/p>\n

He did often make comments like \u201carise\u201d to those he raised from the dead, . . . But . . . it\u2019s likely that he was telling the people to move in some way in order to demonstrate<\/strong> that they had been brought back to life<\/em> (e.g., telling Lazarus to come out, after which Lazarus walked out of his tomb). Since the focus in these passages seems to be on physical demonstrations that a resurrection has occurred, interpreting a phrase like \u201carise\u201d or \u201ccome out\u201d as a command to come back to life is at best a secondary<\/strong> interpretation<\/em>. Jesus may<\/i> have been simultaneously telling these people to rise from the dead and to move their bodies in the relevant ways. But a \u201cmay\u201d scenario is a reference to a possibility, not a probability. I see no way to demonstrate that it\u2019s probable that Jesus was speaking to dead people in these passages. . . .\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

And I want to reiterate a point I\u2019ve made many times before. What does it suggest about the weakness of the case for praying to the dead when arguments like the one I\u2019m responding to in this post have to be resorted to by advocates of such prayers? [italics and bolding my own, excepting the word \u201cmay\u201d]<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

In reply to the last sentence, I say that the weakness and desperation and special pleading are all on his<\/em> side of the argument, as I will now proceed to show: so great is his pathetic sophistry and eisegesis that plain meanings of biblical texts are flat-out ignored or never even comprehended, before he goes on to make his groundless arguments. Here are the \u201cproblem texts\u201d for his wishful interpretation:<\/p>\n

Luke 8:52-55<\/strong> (RSV) And all were weeping and bewailing her; but he said, \u201cDo not weep; for she is not dead but sleeping.\u201d [53] And they laughed at him, knowing that she was dead<\/em>. [54] But taking her by the hand he called, saying, \u201cChild, arise.\u201d [55] And her spirit returned<\/strong><\/em>, and she got up at once; and he directed that something should be given her to eat.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

This verse alone makes mincemeat of Jason\u2019s contentions, because the order of events is reversed (a. Jesus\u2019 words, b. the child is raised, c. she gets up) from what he proposes (a. the child is raised, b. Jesus words, c. she gets up). His nonsense cannot be reconciled with the text above. And when that happens, one who wishes to be \u201cbiblical\u201d must give up their wishful thinking. The only reason Jason attempts this absurd explanation is because he believes the prior falsehood that no one can ever communicate with a dead person. Jesus just undeniably did<\/em> that here (before \u201cher spirit returned\u201d), so, so much for that<\/em>!<\/p>\n

Acts 9:40-41<\/strong> But Peter put them all outside and knelt down and prayed<\/strong><\/em>; then<\/strong> turning to the body<\/strong> he said, \u201cTabitha, rise.\u201d<\/em> And she opened her eyes, and when she saw Peter she sat up. [41] And he gave her his hand and lifted her up. Then calling the saints and widows he presented her alive.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

This is the second fatal passage for Jason\u2019s contentions. This has everything all together: Peter prayed for a dead person. We know this for a fact because any and every commentator would agree that he was praying that she would be raised. After his prayer, the text says that he spoke to a \u201cbody\u201d and not a person who was alive. No one says that they talked to a body if the person is alive. I wouldn\u2019t say about my wife, \u201cI turned to Judy\u2019s body and asked her if she wanted to go out to dinner.\u201d That\u2019s clearly absurd.<\/p>\n

No; the text plainly asserts that Tabitha was still dead. Peter prayed while she was, which means both that 1) he prayed for<\/em> the dead, and 2) he prayed \/ talked to<\/em> the dead. The latter is anathema in Protestantism, and the former is for most Protestants. But here is Peter undeniably doing<\/strong> it<\/em>, as Jesus had in Luke 8.<\/p>\n

But there\u2019s still more!<\/p>\n

1 Kings 17:17-23<\/strong>\u00a0After this the son of the woman, the mistress of the house, became ill; and his illness was so severe that there was no breath left in him.\u00a0[18] And she said to Eli\u2019jah, \u201cWhat have you against me, O man of God? You have come to me to bring my sin to remembrance, and to cause the death of my son!\u201d [19] And he said to her, \u201cGive me your son.\u201d And he took him from her bosom, and carried him up into the upper chamber, where he lodged, and laid him upon his own bed. [20] And he cried to the LORD, \u201cO LORD my God, hast thou brought calamity even upon the widow with whom I sojourn, by slaying her son?\u201d [21] Then he stretched himself upon the child three times, and cried to the LORD, \u201cO LORD my God, let this child\u2019s soul<\/strong> come into him again<\/strong>.\u201d<\/em> [22] And the LORD hearkened to the voice of Eli\u2019jah; and the soul of the child came into him again<\/em>, and he revived. [23] And Eli\u2019jah took the child, and brought him down from the upper chamber into the house, and delivered him to his mother; and Eli\u2019jah said, \u201cSee, your son lives.\u201d<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

This is a reiteration of the sequence that we also saw in Luke 8:52-55 (a. Elijah\u2019s\u2019 words [including prayers for the dead], b. the child is raised, c. he gets up). In Luke the terminology of \u201cher spirit returned\u201d is used. In 1 Kings it\u2019s \u201d the soul of the child came into him again\u201d (cf. Rev 11:11).<\/p>\n

2 Kings 4:32-37<\/strong>\u00a0When Eli\u2019sha came into the house, he saw the child lying dead<\/em> on his bed.\u00a0[33] So he went in and shut the door upon the two of them, and prayed to the LORD. [34] Then he went up and lay upon the child, putting his mouth upon his mouth, his eyes upon his eyes, and his hands upon his hands; and as he stretched himself upon him, the flesh of the child became warm<\/em>. [35] Then he got up again, and walked once to and fro in the house, and went up, and stretched himself upon him; the child sneezed seven times, and the child opened his eyes. [36] Then he summoned Geha\u2019zi and said, \u201cCall this Shu\u2019nammite.\u201d So he called her. And when she came to him, he said, \u201cTake up your son.\u201d [37] She came and fell at his feet, bowing to the ground; then she took up her son and went out<\/em>.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

The same sequence occurs for a third time (a. Elisha\u2019s words [including prayers for the dead], b. the child is raised, c. he gets up). Note that all of these arguments come from the very biblical passages that Jason<\/em> noted (thanks for saving me the trouble, my brother in Christ!). Game, set, match. Readers must choose to either be biblical<\/em> and follow the Catholic and plain biblical interpretation, or unbiblical and eisegetical<\/em> and follow the standard Protestant special pleading about what is occurring in these incidents. I didn\u2019t write biblical passages. I\u2019m simply reporting them and defending the clear and perspicuous meaning of Scripture (as our Protestant brethren always urge all of us to do; glad to oblige!).<\/p>\n

***<\/p>\n

Practical Matters<\/em><\/strong>: Perhaps some of my 4,200+ free online articles (the most comprehensive \u201cone-stop\u201d Catholic apologetics site) or fifty-one books<\/a>\u00a0have helped you (by God\u2019s grace) to decide to\u00a0become Catholic<\/a>\u00a0or to\u00a0return to the Church<\/a>,\u00a0or better understand some doctrines and\u00a0why<\/em>\u00a0we believe them<\/a>.<\/p>\n

\n

Or you may believe my work is worthy to support for the purpose of apologetics and evangelism in general. If so, please seriously consider a much-needed financial contribution. I\u2019m always in need of more funds: especially\u00a0monthly<\/em>\u00a0support. \u201cThe laborer is worthy of his wages\u201d (1 Tim 5:18, NKJV). 1 December 2021 was my 20th anniversary as a\u00a0full-time Catholic apologist<\/a>,\u00a0and February 2022 marked the 25th anniversary of my blog.<\/p>\n

PayPal donations<\/a>\u00a0are the easiest: just send to my email address: apologistdave@gmail.com. You\u2019ll see the term \u201cCatholic Used Book Service\u201d, which is my old side-business. To learn about the different methods of contributing, including 100% tax deduction, etc., see my page:\u00a0About Catholic Apologist Dave Armstrong \/ Donation Information<\/a>.\u00a0Thanks a million<\/em><\/strong>\u00a0from the bottom of my heart!<\/p>\n<\/div>\n

***<\/p>\n

Photo credit:<\/strong> Cornelis Bloemaert II (1603-1692): The revival of Tabita by the apostle Peter <\/em><\/span>[public domain \/ Look and Learn: History Picture Archive<\/em><\/a>]<\/p>\n

***<\/p>\n

Summary<\/em>: Anti-Catholic polemicist Jason Engwer contends that Jesus, Peter, Elijah, & Elisha never made prayers to & for the dead before raising them from the dead. Wrong!<\/p>\n

\u00a0<\/p>\n<\/body><\/html>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

Did Jesus & Peter Talk to Dead People Before They Rose from the Dead, and \u2014 Along with Elijah and Elisha \u2014 Pray for the Dead, or Only Ask Them to Move After They Were Raised? Jason Engwer, who runs the\u00a0Tribalblogue\u00a0site, wrote posts entitled, \u201cAgreement Among The Gospels About How Jesus Raised The Dead\u201d (5-29-22) […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2331,"featured_media":70677,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[231,206],"tags":[201,1263,411,2396,372,17223,1264,17220,195,207,11123,1402,17217,17211,209,412,2904,17214,265,263,3595],"class_list":["post-70674","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-anti-catholicism","category-saints-purgatory-penance","tag-communion-of-saints","tag-intercession-of-saints","tag-intermediate-state","tag-invocation-of-angels","tag-invocation-of-saints","tag-jesus-raising-people-from-the-dead","tag-necromancy","tag-peter-raising-tabitha-from-the-dead","tag-prayer","tag-prayer-for-the-dead","tag-prayer-to-the-dead","tag-prayers-for-the-dead","tag-prayers-to-and-for-the-dead","tag-prayers-to-the-dead","tag-purgatory-2","tag-sheol","tag-tabitha","tag-talking-to-the-dead","tag-veneration-of-angels","tag-veneration-of-saints","tag-witch-of-endor"],"yoast_head":"\nPrayers to and for the Dead (vs. Jason Engwer) Prayers to and for the Dead (vs. Jason Engwer)<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"Did Jesus & Peter Talk to Dead People Before They Rose from the Dead, and -- Along with Elijah and Elisha -- Pray for the Dead, or Only Ask Them to Anti-Catholic polemicist Jason Engwer contends that Jesus, Peter, Elijah, & Elisha never made prayers to & for the dead before raising them from the dead. Wrong!\" \/>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<link rel=\"canonical\" href=\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2023\/03\/prayers-to-and-for-the-dead-vs-jason-engwer.html\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"en_US\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:type\" content=\"article\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:title\" content=\"Prayers to and for the Dead (vs. Jason Engwer) Prayers to and for the Dead (vs. Jason Engwer)\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:description\" content=\"Did Jesus & Peter Talk to Dead People Before They Rose from the Dead, and -- Along with Elijah and Elisha -- Pray for the Dead, or Only Ask Them to Anti-Catholic polemicist Jason Engwer contends that Jesus, Peter, Elijah, & Elisha never made prayers to & for the dead before raising them from the dead. Wrong!\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:url\" content=\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2023\/03\/prayers-to-and-for-the-dead-vs-jason-engwer.html\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:site_name\" content=\"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism\" \/>\n<meta property=\"article:author\" content=\"https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/dave.armstrong.798\" \/>\n<meta property=\"article:published_time\" content=\"2023-03-05T21:39:51+00:00\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:image\" content=\"https:\/\/wp-media.patheos.com\/blogs\/sites\/572\/2023\/03\/PeterTabitha4.jpg\" \/>\n\t<meta property=\"og:image:width\" content=\"512\" \/>\n\t<meta property=\"og:image:height\" content=\"451\" \/>\n\t<meta property=\"og:image:type\" content=\"image\/jpeg\" \/>\n<meta name=\"author\" content=\"Dave Armstrong\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:card\" content=\"summary_large_image\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:label1\" content=\"Written by\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:data1\" content=\"Dave Armstrong\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:label2\" content=\"Est. reading time\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:data2\" content=\"8 minutes\" \/>\n<script type=\"application\/ld+json\" class=\"yoast-schema-graph\">{\"@context\":\"https:\/\/schema.org\",\"@graph\":[{\"@type\":\"WebPage\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2023\/03\/prayers-to-and-for-the-dead-vs-jason-engwer.html\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2023\/03\/prayers-to-and-for-the-dead-vs-jason-engwer.html\",\"name\":\"Prayers to and for the Dead (vs. Jason Engwer) Prayers to and for the Dead (vs. Jason Engwer)\",\"isPartOf\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/#website\"},\"datePublished\":\"2023-03-05T21:39:51+00:00\",\"dateModified\":\"2023-03-05T21:39:51+00:00\",\"author\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/#\/schema\/person\/471eaa20e441eca4bb1ea50393cf632e\"},\"description\":\"Did Jesus & Peter Talk to Dead People Before They Rose from the Dead, and -- Along with Elijah and Elisha -- Pray for the Dead, or Only Ask Them to Anti-Catholic polemicist Jason Engwer contends that Jesus, Peter, Elijah, & Elisha never made prayers to & for the dead before raising them from the dead. Wrong!\",\"breadcrumb\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2023\/03\/prayers-to-and-for-the-dead-vs-jason-engwer.html#breadcrumb\"},\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\",\"potentialAction\":[{\"@type\":\"ReadAction\",\"target\":[\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2023\/03\/prayers-to-and-for-the-dead-vs-jason-engwer.html\"]}]},{\"@type\":\"BreadcrumbList\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2023\/03\/prayers-to-and-for-the-dead-vs-jason-engwer.html#breadcrumb\",\"itemListElement\":[{\"@type\":\"ListItem\",\"position\":1,\"name\":\"Home\",\"item\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\"},{\"@type\":\"ListItem\",\"position\":2,\"name\":\"Prayers to and for the Dead (vs. Jason Engwer)\"}]},{\"@type\":\"WebSite\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/#website\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/\",\"name\":\"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism\",\"description\":\"Catholic biblical apologetics\",\"potentialAction\":[{\"@type\":\"SearchAction\",\"target\":{\"@type\":\"EntryPoint\",\"urlTemplate\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/?s={search_term_string}\"},\"query-input\":\"required name=search_term_string\"}],\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\"},{\"@type\":\"Person\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/#\/schema\/person\/471eaa20e441eca4bb1ea50393cf632e\",\"name\":\"Dave Armstrong\",\"image\":{\"@type\":\"ImageObject\",\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/#\/schema\/person\/image\/\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/secure.gravatar.com\/avatar\/820e6db89734ae7a9e5dac8d498f5ac7?s=96&d=mm&r=g\",\"contentUrl\":\"https:\/\/secure.gravatar.com\/avatar\/820e6db89734ae7a9e5dac8d498f5ac7?s=96&d=mm&r=g\",\"caption\":\"Dave Armstrong\"},\"description\":\"Dave Armstrong is a Catholic author and apologist, who has been actively proclaiming and defending Christianity since 1981, and Catholicism in particular since 1991 (full-time since December 2001). Formerly a campus missionary, as a Protestant, Dave was received into the Catholic Church in February 1991, by the late, well-known catechist and theologian, Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave\u2019s articles have appeared in many influential Catholic periodicals, including \\\"This Rock\\\" (now called \\\"Catholic Answers Magazine\\\"), \\\"Envoy Magazine\\\" (Patrick Madrid), \\\"The Catholic Answer,\\\" \\\"The Coming Home Journal,\\\" \\\"Gilbert Magazine\\\" (American Chesterton Society), and \\\"The Latin Mass.\\\" He also writes a featured column for every issue of \\\"The Michigan Catholic\\\": published by the archdiocese of Detroit, and was editor for most of the apologetics tracts published by the St. Paul Street Evangelization apostolate. Dave\u2019s apologetics and writing apostolate was the subject of a feature article in the May 2002 issue of \\\"Envoy Magazine.\\\" He served as the staff moderator at the Internet discussion forum for The Coming Home Network, from 2007-2010. Dave has been interviewed on many nationally syndicated Catholic radio shows, including \\\"Catholic Answers Live\\\" (twice), \\\"Faith and Family Live\\\" (Steve Wood), \\\"Kresta in the Afternoon,\\\" \\\"Son Rise Morning Show,\\\" \\\"Catholic Connection\\\" (Teresa Tomeo), and \\\"The Catholics Next Door.\\\" His large and popular website, \\\"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism,\\\" was online from March 1997 to March 2007, and received the 1998 Catholic Website of the Year award from \\\"Envoy Magazine.\\\" His blog of the same name (now transferred to Patheos), begun in February 2004, contains more than 1,500 papers, at least 500 debates or dialogues, and over 50 distinct \\\"index\\\" web pages. Unsolicited correspondence has indicated many hundreds of conversions (or returns) to the Catholic faith as a result, by God's grace, of these writings. Dave's conversion story was published in the bestselling book \\\"Surprised by Truth\\\" (edited by Patrick Madrid; San Diego: Basilica Press, 1994). Sophia Institute Press has published six of his books: \\\"A Biblical Defense of Catholicism\\\" (Foreword by Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J., 1996 \/ 2003), \\\"The Catholic Verses\\\" (2004), \\\"The One-Minute Apologist\\\" (2007), \\\"Bible Proofs for Catholic Truths\\\" (2009), \\\"The Quotable Newman\\\" (editor: 2012), and \\\"Proving the Catholic Faith is Biblical\\\" (2015). He is co-author (with Dr. Paul Thigpen) of the inserts for \\\"The New Catholic Answer Bible\\\" (Our Sunday Visitor: 2005), and editor for \\\"The Wisdom of Mr. Chesterton: The Very Best Quotes, Quips, and Cracks from the Pen of G. K. Chesterton\\\" (Saint Benedict Press \/ TAN Books: 2009). \\\"100 Biblical Arguments Against Sola Scriptura\\\" was published by Catholic Answers in May 2012. His \\\"Quotable Wesley\\\" compilation was published by (Protestant \/ Wesleyan publisher) Beacon Hill Press in April 2014. Several of his 49 books are bestsellers in their field. Dave maintains a popular personal Facebook page, a Facebook author page, and has a Twitter account as well. He offers almost all of his books in e-book form on his own Biblical Catholicism site (http:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/), at a permanent deep discount: only $2.99 for ePub, mobi, and AZW, and $1.99 for PDF. His writing has been enthusiastically endorsed or recommended by many leading Catholic apologists, authors, and priests, including Dr. Scott Hahn, Fr. Peter M. J. Stravinskas, Marcus Grodi, Patrick Madrid, Steve Ray, Tim Staples, Devin Rose, Mike Aquilina, Al Kresta, Karl Keating, Fr. Dwight Longenecker, Brandon Vogt, Marcellino D'Ambrosio, and Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave has been happily married to his wife Judy since October 1984. They have three sons and a daughter, and reside in southeast Michigan (metro Detroit).\",\"sameAs\":[\"https:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/\",\"https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/dave.armstrong.798\",\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/@LuxVeritatisApologetics\"],\"url\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/author\/davearmstrong\"}]}<\/script>\n<!-- \/ Yoast SEO plugin. -->","yoast_head_json":{"title":"Prayers to and for the Dead (vs. Jason Engwer) Prayers to and for the Dead (vs. Jason Engwer)","description":"Did Jesus & Peter Talk to Dead People Before They Rose from the Dead, and -- Along with Elijah and Elisha -- Pray for the Dead, or Only Ask Them to Anti-Catholic polemicist Jason Engwer contends that Jesus, Peter, Elijah, & Elisha never made prayers to & for the dead before raising them from the dead. Wrong!","robots":{"index":"index","follow":"follow","max-snippet":"max-snippet:-1","max-image-preview":"max-image-preview:large","max-video-preview":"max-video-preview:-1"},"canonical":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2023\/03\/prayers-to-and-for-the-dead-vs-jason-engwer.html","og_locale":"en_US","og_type":"article","og_title":"Prayers to and for the Dead (vs. Jason Engwer) Prayers to and for the Dead (vs. Jason Engwer)","og_description":"Did Jesus & Peter Talk to Dead People Before They Rose from the Dead, and -- Along with Elijah and Elisha -- Pray for the Dead, or Only Ask Them to Anti-Catholic polemicist Jason Engwer contends that Jesus, Peter, Elijah, & Elisha never made prayers to & for the dead before raising them from the dead. Wrong!","og_url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2023\/03\/prayers-to-and-for-the-dead-vs-jason-engwer.html","og_site_name":"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism","article_author":"https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/dave.armstrong.798","article_published_time":"2023-03-05T21:39:51+00:00","og_image":[{"width":512,"height":451,"url":"https:\/\/wp-media.patheos.com\/blogs\/sites\/572\/2023\/03\/PeterTabitha4.jpg","type":"image\/jpeg"}],"author":"Dave Armstrong","twitter_card":"summary_large_image","twitter_misc":{"Written by":"Dave Armstrong","Est. reading time":"8 minutes"},"schema":{"@context":"https:\/\/schema.org","@graph":[{"@type":"WebPage","@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2023\/03\/prayers-to-and-for-the-dead-vs-jason-engwer.html","url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2023\/03\/prayers-to-and-for-the-dead-vs-jason-engwer.html","name":"Prayers to and for the Dead (vs. Jason Engwer) Prayers to and for the Dead (vs. Jason Engwer)","isPartOf":{"@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/#website"},"datePublished":"2023-03-05T21:39:51+00:00","dateModified":"2023-03-05T21:39:51+00:00","author":{"@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/#\/schema\/person\/471eaa20e441eca4bb1ea50393cf632e"},"description":"Did Jesus & Peter Talk to Dead People Before They Rose from the Dead, and -- Along with Elijah and Elisha -- Pray for the Dead, or Only Ask Them to Anti-Catholic polemicist Jason Engwer contends that Jesus, Peter, Elijah, & Elisha never made prayers to & for the dead before raising them from the dead. Wrong!","breadcrumb":{"@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2023\/03\/prayers-to-and-for-the-dead-vs-jason-engwer.html#breadcrumb"},"inLanguage":"en-US","potentialAction":[{"@type":"ReadAction","target":["https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2023\/03\/prayers-to-and-for-the-dead-vs-jason-engwer.html"]}]},{"@type":"BreadcrumbList","@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2023\/03\/prayers-to-and-for-the-dead-vs-jason-engwer.html#breadcrumb","itemListElement":[{"@type":"ListItem","position":1,"name":"Home","item":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong"},{"@type":"ListItem","position":2,"name":"Prayers to and for the Dead (vs. Jason Engwer)"}]},{"@type":"WebSite","@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/#website","url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/","name":"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism","description":"Catholic biblical apologetics","potentialAction":[{"@type":"SearchAction","target":{"@type":"EntryPoint","urlTemplate":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/?s={search_term_string}"},"query-input":"required name=search_term_string"}],"inLanguage":"en-US"},{"@type":"Person","@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/#\/schema\/person\/471eaa20e441eca4bb1ea50393cf632e","name":"Dave Armstrong","image":{"@type":"ImageObject","inLanguage":"en-US","@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/#\/schema\/person\/image\/","url":"https:\/\/secure.gravatar.com\/avatar\/820e6db89734ae7a9e5dac8d498f5ac7?s=96&d=mm&r=g","contentUrl":"https:\/\/secure.gravatar.com\/avatar\/820e6db89734ae7a9e5dac8d498f5ac7?s=96&d=mm&r=g","caption":"Dave Armstrong"},"description":"Dave Armstrong is a Catholic author and apologist, who has been actively proclaiming and defending Christianity since 1981, and Catholicism in particular since 1991 (full-time since December 2001). Formerly a campus missionary, as a Protestant, Dave was received into the Catholic Church in February 1991, by the late, well-known catechist and theologian, Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave\u2019s articles have appeared in many influential Catholic periodicals, including \"This Rock\" (now called \"Catholic Answers Magazine\"), \"Envoy Magazine\" (Patrick Madrid), \"The Catholic Answer,\" \"The Coming Home Journal,\" \"Gilbert Magazine\" (American Chesterton Society), and \"The Latin Mass.\" He also writes a featured column for every issue of \"The Michigan Catholic\": published by the archdiocese of Detroit, and was editor for most of the apologetics tracts published by the St. Paul Street Evangelization apostolate. Dave\u2019s apologetics and writing apostolate was the subject of a feature article in the May 2002 issue of \"Envoy Magazine.\" He served as the staff moderator at the Internet discussion forum for The Coming Home Network, from 2007-2010. Dave has been interviewed on many nationally syndicated Catholic radio shows, including \"Catholic Answers Live\" (twice), \"Faith and Family Live\" (Steve Wood), \"Kresta in the Afternoon,\" \"Son Rise Morning Show,\" \"Catholic Connection\" (Teresa Tomeo), and \"The Catholics Next Door.\" His large and popular website, \"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism,\" was online from March 1997 to March 2007, and received the 1998 Catholic Website of the Year award from \"Envoy Magazine.\" His blog of the same name (now transferred to Patheos), begun in February 2004, contains more than 1,500 papers, at least 500 debates or dialogues, and over 50 distinct \"index\" web pages. Unsolicited correspondence has indicated many hundreds of conversions (or returns) to the Catholic faith as a result, by God's grace, of these writings. Dave's conversion story was published in the bestselling book \"Surprised by Truth\" (edited by Patrick Madrid; San Diego: Basilica Press, 1994). Sophia Institute Press has published six of his books: \"A Biblical Defense of Catholicism\" (Foreword by Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J., 1996 \/ 2003), \"The Catholic Verses\" (2004), \"The One-Minute Apologist\" (2007), \"Bible Proofs for Catholic Truths\" (2009), \"The Quotable Newman\" (editor: 2012), and \"Proving the Catholic Faith is Biblical\" (2015). He is co-author (with Dr. Paul Thigpen) of the inserts for \"The New Catholic Answer Bible\" (Our Sunday Visitor: 2005), and editor for \"The Wisdom of Mr. Chesterton: The Very Best Quotes, Quips, and Cracks from the Pen of G. K. Chesterton\" (Saint Benedict Press \/ TAN Books: 2009). \"100 Biblical Arguments Against Sola Scriptura\" was published by Catholic Answers in May 2012. His \"Quotable Wesley\" compilation was published by (Protestant \/ Wesleyan publisher) Beacon Hill Press in April 2014. Several of his 49 books are bestsellers in their field. Dave maintains a popular personal Facebook page, a Facebook author page, and has a Twitter account as well. He offers almost all of his books in e-book form on his own Biblical Catholicism site (http:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/), at a permanent deep discount: only $2.99 for ePub, mobi, and AZW, and $1.99 for PDF. His writing has been enthusiastically endorsed or recommended by many leading Catholic apologists, authors, and priests, including Dr. Scott Hahn, Fr. Peter M. J. Stravinskas, Marcus Grodi, Patrick Madrid, Steve Ray, Tim Staples, Devin Rose, Mike Aquilina, Al Kresta, Karl Keating, Fr. Dwight Longenecker, Brandon Vogt, Marcellino D'Ambrosio, and Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave has been happily married to his wife Judy since October 1984. They have three sons and a daughter, and reside in southeast Michigan (metro Detroit).","sameAs":["https:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/","https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/dave.armstrong.798","https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/@LuxVeritatisApologetics"],"url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/author\/davearmstrong"}]}},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/70674","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/2331"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=70674"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/70674\/revisions"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/70677"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=70674"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=70674"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=70674"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}