[my citation, leaving out the middle sentence]<\/span> Christ is our model of holiness. . . . Assigning that role to any other is idolatry.<\/p><\/blockquote>\nOf course this is directly contradicted by the passages I presented [see bracketed note soon below]. The Bible (especially St. Paul, over and over) expressly commands us to imitate holy people and to see them as models for holiness, worthy of honor and veneration. None of this is seen as the slightest contradiction to Jesus being our model. He certainly is, but so also are those who are being perfected by His grace, and His grace alone.<\/span><\/p>\nIt\u2019s not either\/or. That is the goofy man-made tradition and illogical thought. Assuredly that is not the biblical<\/i> worldview.<\/span><\/p>\nBut I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent\u2019s cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ. (2 Corinthian 3)<\/span> Jesus answered, \u201cI am <\/span>the way<\/b> and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. (John 14:6)<\/span><\/p>\n\u201cHe (Christ) is the image of the invisible God\u2026.\u201d (Col. 1:15).<\/span> \u201cFor those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his SON\u2026\u201d (Rom. 8:29).<\/span> \u201cthere is one mediator between God and men, the man Jesus Christ\u201d (1 Tim. 2:5).<\/span><\/p>\n[At this point I posted a great number of biblical passages having to do with imitation and spiritual models, which is what the pope was talking about. I later expanded the theme by adding many more Bible passages, and made my own paper about it.]<\/span><\/div>\nSorry for providing too much Bible support. My bad . . .<\/span><\/p>\nRoman Catholics don\u2019t pray to Paul and King Asa, or call them co-redeemers with Christ. You know very well that you are attributing something entirely different to Mary, and that is what we are responding to here.<\/span><\/p>\nWe certainly ask St. Paul to pray for us. You thought otherwise? I don\u2019t have to call Paul a co-redeemer or co-mediator of graces and salvation because he called himself<\/i> that:<\/span><\/p>\nRomans 11:13-14<\/b> (KJV) For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: [14] If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and<\/span> might save some of them<\/span>.<\/p>\n1 Corinthians 9:22<\/b> To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that<\/span> I might by all means save some<\/span>.<\/b><\/p>\n2 Corinthians 1:6<\/b> And whether we be afflicted, it is for your consolation and salvation, which is effectual in the enduring of the same sufferings which we also suffer: or whether we be comforted,<\/span> it is for your consolation and salvation<\/span>.<\/b><\/p>\nEphesians 3:2<\/b> If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to youward: (RSV: \u201cassuming that you have heard of the<\/span> stewardship of God\u2019s grace<\/span> that was given to me for you\u201d)<\/span><\/p>\nEphesians 4:29<\/b> Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers. (RSV:<\/span> \u201cimpart grace . . .\u201d<\/span>)<\/span><\/p>\nJames 5:19-20<\/b> Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; [20] Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins. (RSV: \u201cwhoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way<\/span> will save his soul from death<\/span> and will cover a multitude of sins\u201d)<\/span><\/p>\n1 Peter 4:10<\/b> As every man hath received the gift, even so minister the same one to another, as<\/span> good stewards of the manifold grace of God.<\/span><\/p><\/blockquote>\nIf the Apostle Paul can \u201csave\u201d others and be a mediator of God\u2019s grace by his prayers and preaching and suffering, why not Mary also? What is the big huge difference? The Bible even says that we participate in our own salvation:<\/span>
\n<\/b><\/p>\nActs 2:40-41<\/b> And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying,<\/span> Save yourselves<\/span> from this untoward generation. [41] Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.<\/span><\/p>\nPhilippians 2:12-13<\/b> Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence,<\/span> work out your own salvation<\/span> with fear and trembling. [13] For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.<\/span><\/p>\n1 Timothy 4:16<\/b> Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee. (RSV: \u201cTake heed to yourself and to your teaching: hold to that, for by so doing<\/span> you will save both yourself and your hearers\u201d<\/span>)<\/p><\/blockquote>\nI will be happy to post Holy Scripture here, unless and until such time that is forbidden too. As always, anyone is more than welcome to come argue these things on my blog, in the combox under my new post. I don\u2019t waste my time trying to personally debate anti-Catholics any longer. But others who frequent my blog are under no such constraint and will be more than happy to debate y\u2019all.<\/span><\/p>\nThe Holy Spirit leads people to Christ.<\/span><\/p>\nExactly. He sure does, and praise Him for that! And sometimes (many times; probably in most or even almost all instances) He uses human beings to accomplish that purpose, and imitation of holy persons as models along the way (precisely what has been denied in this clueless post and claims) is one way He does that:<\/span>
\n<\/b><\/p>\n1 Corinthians 11:1<\/b> Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ.<\/span><\/p>\n1 Thessalonians 1:6<\/b> And you became imitators of us and of the Lord . . .<\/span><\/p>\nEphesians 3:2<\/b> assuming that you have heard of the stewardship of God\u2019s grace that was given to me for you<\/span><\/p><\/blockquote>\nSimply repeating one biblical truth that Catholics agree with anyway does not magically wish away dozens of other relevant biblical passages that one rarely hears about in Protestant sermons, radio talks, books, etc.<\/span><\/p>\nTo pretend that what the RCC says about Mary\u2019s role is somehow comparable to the scriptural command for Christians to imitate Paul, or some other holy individual (including Mary) is laughable.<\/span><\/p>\n* * *<\/div>\n
All I did was feel a necessity of providing some Scripture relevant to the discussion. Truth (i.e., Scripture) has its own inherent power; hence it is never unfruitful to post Holy Scripture: whether its message is heeded or not.<\/span><\/p>\n* * *<\/div>\n
Actually, I consider the folks here my brothers in Christ. It is they who consider that I am not even a Christian. So who is regarding whom as a heretic? We think Protestants have some serious errors, of course, but we don\u2019t deny the essential status as fellow Christians.<\/span><\/p>\nSo let\u2019s get the proper perspective here. Some on this blog think I am a troll, a liar, a sophist, etc. That largely comes (no question about it) from not regarding me as a brother. Makes a huge <\/span>difference. This is how Satan divides and conquers.<\/span><\/p>\nI don\u2019t despise people<\/span>; I object to lousy reasoning and closed-mindedness, which are objectionable traits<\/span> of people.<\/span><\/p>\n* * *<\/div>\n
This post, frankly, is a bit too vague by itself for me to understand for certain what is being said here. If Mary is being upheld as an individual that we should admire and whose faith we should model ourselves after, I would heartily agree with that. Dave Armstrong\u2019s lengthy Scripture argument seems to enforce that interpretation.<\/span><\/p>\nGood, but your comrades did not<\/span> agree, which is the point. The whole gist of the original post was to disagree with the notion that Mary could be any sort of guide or model to holiness. That was its entire purpose: it was trying to imply to a Protestant (mostly) anti-Catholic audience (with their usual profound lack of understanding of Catholic theology) that Catholics are guilty of idolatry and placing human beings on the level of Christ.<\/span><\/p>\nBut I\u2019m happy to hear that you disagree with your pals on this blog and so don\u2019t have to rationalize or wish away so much plain Scripture.<\/span><\/p>\nIf, on the other hand, it is saying that Mary actively guides us from heaven in our daily lives, intercedes for us, etc., then Protestants would oppose that idea as unbiblical.<\/span><\/p>\nThe homily (I just know about the little bits that were quoted) seems to be about Mary as a model, based on her life, and particularly the \u201cyes\u201d of the Annunciation. Her intercession is mentioned, too, however.<\/span><\/p>\nIntercession of those in heaven for those on earth is an entirely biblical phenomenon. Revelation 6:9-10 gives an account of an imprecatory prayer of dead martyrs for those on earth:<\/span><\/p>\nWhen he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne; [10] they cried out with a loud voice, \u201cO Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?\u201d (RSV)<\/span><\/p>\nJeremiah 15:1 refers to a hypothetical of Moses and Samuel praying for Israel. Hypotheticals aren\u2019t offered unless they are possible<\/em>. Therefore, it was possible that they could have done so. God cannot say an absolute falsehood in the sense that it could have possibly happened and would have His approval.<\/span><\/p>\nThat being said, I offer these comments to Dave Armstrong<\/span> IF<\/b><\/i> Pope Benedict was saying that Mary\u2019s role for the Christian is a living, active, guiding and intercessory one.<\/span><\/p>\nOf course it is. But that was not my particular argument in this thread, because I was centering on the \u201cmodel\u201d aspect.<\/span><\/p>\nThat was expressly denied by Louis in his first sentence. It is the typical Protestant anti-biblical either\/or mentality: if Christ is our model of holiness, no one else possibly can be. The next two posts were all about Christ, as if Catholics don\u2019t accept everything written about our Lord in Scripture. Then it was off to the dog races, with no one even understanding the point I was making (until now, and your comments).<\/span><\/p>\n* * *<\/span><\/div>\nI should clarify that I was referring mainly to Mary\u2019s intercession, when I said \u201cof course it is\u201d. [two paragraphs above: beginning sentence] She is alive and active. In the sense of \u201cguidance\u201d however, it is not so much as you guys are making out: as if Mary assumes the role of the Holy Spirit.<\/span><\/p>\nNo; we agree that the Holy Spirit guides us, as the Helper, Who lives inside of us. I\u2019ve experienced concrete instances of this many many times in my own life, both before and after becoming Catholic.<\/span><\/p>\nMary\u2019s guidance is by her holy, sinless example. The pope was not saying that Mary is guiding us minute-by-minute from heaven, as if we had a direct phone line to her. He mentioned the \u201cyes\u201d of the Annunciation, which is an example. She prays, she loves us; she helps distribute God\u2019s grace in a profound way. We don\u2019t believe that she usurps what Protestants and Catholics agree is the guiding function of the Holy Spirit.<\/span><\/p>\nProtestants think that because they dig up the most flowery Marian devotional language and pretend that we believe she can save us, as if that means it is her alone and not merely her acting as a vessel for God\u2019s purposes (I\u2019ve refuted several such efforts of radical out-of-context pseudo-argumentation).<\/span><\/p>\nProtestants routinely think we are trying to exclude or denigrate God because they have little concept of how God uses His creatures for His purpose. Calvinists in particular deny the biblical motif of God and men working together for His purposes. That<\/span> is what we are talking about when we venerate the Blessed Virgin Mary.<\/span><\/p>\nBack to \u201ceither\/or\u201d \u2014 the false dichotomy that lies behind so very many serious Protestant errors . . .<\/span><\/p>\nIn quoting commenter Louis, Dave Armstrong said\u2026<\/span><\/p>\nChrist is our model of holiness. . . . Assigning that role to any other is idolatry.<\/i><\/p><\/blockquote>\n
Dave,<\/span> First, let me quote the statement which Louis posted and from which you launched your argument.<\/span>
\n<\/i><\/p>\nChrist is our model of holiness.<\/i><\/p>\n
All the promises of God have their \u201cyes\u201d in Him.<\/b><\/p>\n
Assigning that role to any other is idolatry.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n
When you quoted Louis, you left out his second sentence. The second sentence modifies both the first and the third and is key to understanding what he was saying. Without it, I can understand why you would answer in the way that you did. I\u2019m curious as to why you removed it from his statement. <\/span><\/p>\nBecause I was concentrating on the \u201cmodel\u201d aspect. The second sentence is not in dispute: rightly understood. But it is the either\/or insinuation that I was attacking: that because Christ is our model, no human being can possibly be also<\/span>.<\/span><\/p>\nIf you guys think Mary can be a model for holiness for us today, then great. That was not the impression I received from the original post or subsequent comments.<\/span><\/p>\nWhile your Scripture references are good in themselves, I think you went wide of the mark in your response to Louis.<\/span><\/p>\nPerhaps I misunderstood him a bit. But I don\u2019t think I misinterpreted the intention of the original post and the comments about Christ: they implied that Catholics somehow wish to denigrate and demote Christ. Not at all, of course.<\/span><\/p>\nThe complete quote is in keeping with the concept of this post, namely, that it is only God Himself\u2013Father, Son and Holy Spirit who grants and fulfills His promises.<\/span><\/p>\nOf course. No one disputes that. The post was not entitled \u201cOnly God Grants Promises\u201d but rather, \u201cA Guide to Becoming Holy\u201d [i.e., Mary]. Therefore, the unspoken argument was that Mary ought not to be considered such a guide, and it is that false notion to which I replied with tons of Bible that blow it out of the water.<\/span>
\n
\nThe fact that he uses His people to bring the gospel to others and to assist them in many other ways, does not negate Louis\u2019 point that <\/span>it is God\u2019s promises, not those of any created person<\/b><\/i> that is in view.<\/span><\/p>\nBut Louis\u2019s point in his second sentence was not the original focus of the post. That\u2019s precisely why I omitted it in my citation, because I am responding to what I believe to be falsehoods<\/span>, not truths.<\/span>
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\nPerhaps Protestants are confused by this term \u201cdispenser of grace(s),\u201d as we regard that as the role of the Holy Spirit in making the dead sinner\u2019s stony heart into a heart of flesh. Is Mary granted this power in Catholicism?<\/span><\/p>\nShe is in the same sense as Paul is, per my many Bible citations. She is an instrument that God uses to distribute the grace that comes from Him alone. If Paul can be used in such a way: indeed any of us to some degree, if we are willing, so also can Mary the Mother of God the Son.<\/span><\/p>\nMary can save no one in and of herself. She can only participate in God\u2019s plan to save whomever He wishes to save.<\/span><\/p>\nYour edited quote from Louis then serves, as I said, as the launching point for your argument, an argument that no Protestant would argue against since all Christians understand and believe in emulating \u201cgreat heroes of the faith.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\nThat\u2019s why, I think, my biblical argument had force. But then what was the point of the original post, if not denying (by implication of the standard method on this blog of mocking every Catholic thing) that Mary can be a guide to holiness?<\/span>
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\nBoth Catholic and Protestant literature, in addition to the Bible, are full of examples for us to follow, as well as those people whom God has been pleased to bring into our lives in the \u201creal\u201d world.<\/span> Your argument is fine as it goes,<\/span><\/p>\nIndeed. You, not being anti-Catholic<\/span>, can see that and fully agree. But the ones who are obsessed with tearing down Catholicism at every turn either cannot see it, or wish to engage in a distorted presentation that seeks to offer a pseudo-Catholicism, that can be rejected, in straw man fashion.<\/span>
\nYou can agree with me when agreement is warranted by Scripture. See the humungous difference between ecumenical and anti-Catholic Protestants?<\/span>
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\nbut I don\u2019t think anyone is arguing that we should not emulate others who are strong in their faith in Christ and who live exemplary lives.<\/span><\/p>\nThen I look forward to your next response, to explain the thrust of the post itself and the early comments about it.<\/span><\/p>\nProtestants, of course, argue against the unbiblical idea that Mary is dispensing grace and guiding our lives from her throne in heaven.<\/span><\/p>\nI don\u2019t see (from what we know) that this was the pope\u2019s argument. The guidance was from things like her saying yes to God at the Annunciation. I\u2019m sure you would agree that this was a good thing. That\u2019s the Virgin Birth, after all, and Protestants are very big on that, as we are, though, due to liberal theological influence in the last 250 years, they reject her perpetual virginity, unlike Luther, Calvin, and Zwingli, and even the wicked English so-called \u201creformers.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n* * *<\/div>\n
I would agree with TF that Mary\u2019s life is merely sketched in the Scriptures. There really isn\u2019t much to go on as far as modeling oneself after her, apart from those biographical traditions which fill out the picture of her considerably, though, I would add, unreliably.<\/span> What I have said in general, however, is that what we do know of her is certainly commendable as an example of a child of God\u2019s surrender in faith to His will.<\/span> As it is, there are many more finely drawn examples of faith in the Scriptures for us to follow which dwarf the material given to us on Mary, and I think, that purposely.<\/span><\/p>\nHere is how I defend Mary\u2019s sinlessness from Scripture. A solid argument can be made:<\/span><\/p>\n
![\"MaryAnnunciation4\"](\"https:\/\/wp-media.patheos.com\/blogs\/sites\/572\/2016\/04\/MaryAnnunciation4.jpg\")
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