{"id":75803,"date":"2023-09-05T09:44:24","date_gmt":"2023-09-05T13:44:24","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/?p=75803"},"modified":"2023-09-05T09:44:24","modified_gmt":"2023-09-05T13:44:24","slug":"marys-immaculate-conception-vs-steve-hays","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2023\/09\/marys-immaculate-conception-vs-steve-hays.html","title":{"rendered":"Mary’s Immaculate Conception (vs. Steve Hays)"},"content":{"rendered":"\n<\/head>
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[from my Reply #26<\/a> to the late Calvinist anti-Catholic Steve Hays; originally posted on 6-5-23 on Facebook]<\/div>\n<\/div>\n
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Wouldn\u2019t it have been nice if we could have gone several rounds, with Hays responding to my counter-replies, and then my further replies, etc.? That\u2019s what never happened and has never happened in any and all<\/em> of my exchanges with anti-Catholics, with the lone exception of my debate on justification<\/a> with Brazilian Calvinist Francisco Tourinho. And he may not even technically be an anti-Catholic. Hays\u2019 words will be in blue<\/span>.<\/span><\/div>\n
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Marian mythology<\/span><\/em><\/div>\n<\/div>\n
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What would count as evidence for the Immaculate Conception? What kind of evidence would even be probative? In the nature of the case, there could be no physical evidence for the Immaculate Conception.<\/span> [all citations from page 536 in his book, Catholicism<\/em><\/a>]<\/div>\n<\/div>\n
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As in my many defenses of it:<\/div>\n
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1) the meaning of kecharitomene<\/em> in Luke 1:28 (\u201cfull of grace\u201d<\/a>),<\/div>\n
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2) what it means to be full of grace, according to Paul<\/a> (without sin),<\/div>\n
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3) the fittingness (yes, that is a biblical concept<\/a>) of Mary being without sin, original and actual, as the Mother of God,<\/div>\n
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4) analogies to other holy figures<\/a> made holy by God in the womb in accordance with their high calling,<\/div>\n
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5) the biblical and patristic typology of the New or Second Eve<\/a>, who reversed the \u201cno\u201d of Eve with a \u201cyes\u201d to God,<\/div>\n
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6) #3 and #5 lead logically to a special miraculous act of grace by God at the very beginning of Mary\u2019s existence; i.e., at her conception,<\/div>\n
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7) pondering why an angel would \u201chail\u201d Mary<\/a>,<\/div>\n
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8 ) the possibility and actuality of other sinless creatures in the Bible<\/a> (analogy),<\/div>\n
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9) The NT analogy of Mary as the new ark of the covenant<\/a>.<\/div>\n<\/blockquote>\n<\/div>\n
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In what respect, if at all, would the Immaculate Conception even be detectable to Mary or her parents?<\/span>
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Primarily by special revelation, which is precisely what Mary received. God sent the angel Gabriel to her. Secondly, as she went through life, due to being preserved from original sin, Mary wouldn\u2019t be burdened by the concupiscence (tendency or desire to sin) that the rest of us labor under, and she would come to be aware of that by talking to others who did have to deal with it. Her lack of actual sin would also set her apart from everyone around her except for Jesus.
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Assuming (ex hypothesi<\/em>) that Mary was sinless, what evidence could there be that she was sinless from the moment of her conception, rather than at some later stage in utero, or as a newborn baby, or one-year-old? In other words, if God intervened to exempt her from the stain of original sin, how would Mary or her parents know when that happened? Even in principle, how could there be any evidence for the timing of God\u2019s intervention?<\/span>
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Good and interesting question. I\u2019m just speculating (hopefully piously!), but I think that it would be an extrapolation from knowledge of Old Testament saints like Jeremiah being chosen and set aside from the womb and pondering that such a special grace may as well be from the very beginning of her preborn life or conception, according to what was known (biologically) of such things in those days. They knew that a person began in the womb (as a result of intercourse), formed by God because that is biblical (in the Psalms and elsewhere). They didn\u2019t know that it was so early that it had no detectable signs. They didn\u2019t know about DNA, etc.<\/div>\n<\/div>\n
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\nIn other words, Mary would have had to think about it and speculate, just as Duns Scotus later did. Whether she actually worked all that out, we simply don\u2019t know. But in any event, she didn\u2019t have to for it to be true. It\u2019s interesting to think about, but has absolutely no bearing on whether the doctrine is true or not. If I don\u2019t know how my stomach and intestines and colon and kidneys and liver digest and filter food, it doesn\u2019t follow that they aren\u2019t doing so in my body. They are what they are and they do what they do, regardless of my state of knowledge about their workings.<\/div>\n<\/div>\n
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\nFor that matter, surely the church fathers had a different understanding of conception and the moment of conception, than we do, thanks to modern gynecology and related disciplines.<\/span><\/div>\n<\/div>\n
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\nYes they did, because of the primitive state of biology and reproductive biology. So for centuries they held to Mary being actually sinless, but not freed from original sin. Some may perhaps have thought (I don\u2019t recall examples) that her sanctification began in the womb, analogous to Jeremiah, John the Baptist, etc. Freedom from actual sin is the kernel of the more developed doctrine of freedom from original sin (taking it back to her conception rather than her birth), which was first probably fully understood by Blessed Duns Scotus (c. 1265-1308). Since Hays had no understanding of development of doctrine at all, and rejected it in his ignorance, all of this would be gibberish to him. He thought that every doctrine emerged from the pages of the Bible whole and entire, and incapable of any further development. Hence he stated that Chalcedonian Christology was lower than that of the Bible.
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So what does the traditional dogma even mean?<\/span><\/div>\n<\/div>\n
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\nIt means that the kernel (actual sinlessness based on fittingness as the Mother of God) was there from the beginning: indeed in Luke 1:28 and that it was developed over many centuries as the Immaculate Conception, to be declared as a dogma at the highest level in 1854. Catholics actually believe that pious Christians can ponder spiritual things, even for many centuries and come to deeper understandings of them, with the help of the Holy Spirit.
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Is it not far more likely that this belief evolved through multiple stages of theological speculation?<\/span>
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Yes, it went through a long process, but it consistently developed rather than evolved (like a dinosaur to a mammal or suchlike) into something totally other than what it was from the beginning.<\/div>\n
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***<\/div>\n<\/div>\n
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Practical Matters<\/em><\/strong>: Perhaps some of my 4,300+ free online articles (the most comprehensive \u201cone-stop\u201d Catholic apologetics site) or\u00a0fifty-three books<\/a>\u00a0have helped you (by God\u2019s grace) to decide to\u00a0become Catholic<\/a>\u00a0or to\u00a0return to the Church<\/a>,\u00a0or better understand some doctrines and\u00a0why<\/em>\u00a0we believe them<\/a>.<\/div>\n
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Or you may believe my work is worthy to support for the purpose of apologetics and evangelism in general. If so, please seriously consider a much-needed financial contribution. I\u2019m always in need of more funds: especially\u00a0monthly<\/em>\u00a0support. \u201cThe laborer is worthy of his wages\u201d (1 Tim 5:18, NKJV). 1 December 2021 was my 20th anniversary as a\u00a0full-time Catholic apologist<\/a>, and February 2022 marked the 25th anniversary of my blog.<\/div>\n
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PayPal donations<\/a>\u00a0are the easiest: just send to my email address: apologistdave@gmail.com. You\u2019ll see the term \u201cCatholic Used Book Service\u201d, which is my old side-business. To learn about the different methods of contributing, including 100% tax deduction, etc., see my page:\u00a0About Catholic Apologist Dave Armstrong \/ Donation Information<\/a>.\u00a0Thanks a million<\/em><\/strong>\u00a0from the bottom of my heart!<\/div>\n
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Photo credit:<\/strong> The Annunciation<\/em>\u00a0(1644), by\u00a0Philippe de Champaigne (1602-1674)<\/span>\u00a0[public domain \/\u00a0Wikimedia Commons<\/a>]<\/p>\n

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Summary<\/em>: Summary of the biblical evidences for the Catholic doctrine of the immaculate conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary, in reply to Calvinist anti-Catholic Steve Hays.<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/body><\/html>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

[from my Reply #26 to the late Calvinist anti-Catholic Steve Hays; originally posted on 6-5-23 on Facebook] * Wouldn\u2019t it have been nice if we could have gone several rounds, with Hays responding to my counter-replies, and then my further replies, etc.? That\u2019s what never happened and has never happened in any and all of […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2331,"featured_media":75806,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[231,45],"tags":[2357,959,46,16438,1634,2119],"class_list":["post-75803","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-anti-catholicism","category-blessed-virgin-mary","tag-blessed-virgin-mary","tag-full-of-grace","tag-immaculate-conception","tag-kecharitomene","tag-luke-128","tag-steve-hays"],"yoast_head":"\nMary's Immaculate Conception (vs. Steve Hays) Mary's Immaculate Conception (vs. Steve Hays)<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"* Wouldn't it have been nice if we could have gone several rounds, with Hays responding to my counter-replies, and then my further replies, etc.? 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Formerly a campus missionary, as a Protestant, Dave was received into the Catholic Church in February 1991, by the late, well-known catechist and theologian, Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave\u2019s articles have appeared in many influential Catholic periodicals, including \\\"This Rock\\\" (now called \\\"Catholic Answers Magazine\\\"), \\\"Envoy Magazine\\\" (Patrick Madrid), \\\"The Catholic Answer,\\\" \\\"The Coming Home Journal,\\\" \\\"Gilbert Magazine\\\" (American Chesterton Society), and \\\"The Latin Mass.\\\" He also writes a featured column for every issue of \\\"The Michigan Catholic\\\": published by the archdiocese of Detroit, and was editor for most of the apologetics tracts published by the St. Paul Street Evangelization apostolate. Dave\u2019s apologetics and writing apostolate was the subject of a feature article in the May 2002 issue of \\\"Envoy Magazine.\\\" He served as the staff moderator at the Internet discussion forum for The Coming Home Network, from 2007-2010. Dave has been interviewed on many nationally syndicated Catholic radio shows, including \\\"Catholic Answers Live\\\" (twice), \\\"Faith and Family Live\\\" (Steve Wood), \\\"Kresta in the Afternoon,\\\" \\\"Son Rise Morning Show,\\\" \\\"Catholic Connection\\\" (Teresa Tomeo), and \\\"The Catholics Next Door.\\\" His large and popular website, \\\"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism,\\\" was online from March 1997 to March 2007, and received the 1998 Catholic Website of the Year award from \\\"Envoy Magazine.\\\" His blog of the same name (now transferred to Patheos), begun in February 2004, contains more than 1,500 papers, at least 500 debates or dialogues, and over 50 distinct \\\"index\\\" web pages. Unsolicited correspondence has indicated many hundreds of conversions (or returns) to the Catholic faith as a result, by God's grace, of these writings. Dave's conversion story was published in the bestselling book \\\"Surprised by Truth\\\" (edited by Patrick Madrid; San Diego: Basilica Press, 1994). Sophia Institute Press has published six of his books: \\\"A Biblical Defense of Catholicism\\\" (Foreword by Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J., 1996 \/ 2003), \\\"The Catholic Verses\\\" (2004), \\\"The One-Minute Apologist\\\" (2007), \\\"Bible Proofs for Catholic Truths\\\" (2009), \\\"The Quotable Newman\\\" (editor: 2012), and \\\"Proving the Catholic Faith is Biblical\\\" (2015). He is co-author (with Dr. Paul Thigpen) of the inserts for \\\"The New Catholic Answer Bible\\\" (Our Sunday Visitor: 2005), and editor for \\\"The Wisdom of Mr. Chesterton: The Very Best Quotes, Quips, and Cracks from the Pen of G. K. Chesterton\\\" (Saint Benedict Press \/ TAN Books: 2009). \\\"100 Biblical Arguments Against Sola Scriptura\\\" was published by Catholic Answers in May 2012. His \\\"Quotable Wesley\\\" compilation was published by (Protestant \/ Wesleyan publisher) Beacon Hill Press in April 2014. Several of his 49 books are bestsellers in their field. Dave maintains a popular personal Facebook page, a Facebook author page, and has a Twitter account as well. He offers almost all of his books in e-book form on his own Biblical Catholicism site (http:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/), at a permanent deep discount: only $2.99 for ePub, mobi, and AZW, and $1.99 for PDF. His writing has been enthusiastically endorsed or recommended by many leading Catholic apologists, authors, and priests, including Dr. Scott Hahn, Fr. Peter M. J. Stravinskas, Marcus Grodi, Patrick Madrid, Steve Ray, Tim Staples, Devin Rose, Mike Aquilina, Al Kresta, Karl Keating, Fr. Dwight Longenecker, Brandon Vogt, Marcellino D'Ambrosio, and Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave has been happily married to his wife Judy since October 1984. They have three sons and a daughter, and reside in southeast Michigan (metro Detroit).\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/author\/davearmstrong\"}]}<\/script>\n<!-- \/ Yoast SEO plugin. -->","yoast_head_json":{"title":"Mary's Immaculate Conception (vs. Steve Hays) Mary's Immaculate Conception (vs. Steve Hays)","description":"* Wouldn't it have been nice if we could have gone several rounds, with Hays responding to my counter-replies, and then my further replies, etc.? 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Formerly a campus missionary, as a Protestant, Dave was received into the Catholic Church in February 1991, by the late, well-known catechist and theologian, Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave\u2019s articles have appeared in many influential Catholic periodicals, including \"This Rock\" (now called \"Catholic Answers Magazine\"), \"Envoy Magazine\" (Patrick Madrid), \"The Catholic Answer,\" \"The Coming Home Journal,\" \"Gilbert Magazine\" (American Chesterton Society), and \"The Latin Mass.\" He also writes a featured column for every issue of \"The Michigan Catholic\": published by the archdiocese of Detroit, and was editor for most of the apologetics tracts published by the St. Paul Street Evangelization apostolate. Dave\u2019s apologetics and writing apostolate was the subject of a feature article in the May 2002 issue of \"Envoy Magazine.\" He served as the staff moderator at the Internet discussion forum for The Coming Home Network, from 2007-2010. Dave has been interviewed on many nationally syndicated Catholic radio shows, including \"Catholic Answers Live\" (twice), \"Faith and Family Live\" (Steve Wood), \"Kresta in the Afternoon,\" \"Son Rise Morning Show,\" \"Catholic Connection\" (Teresa Tomeo), and \"The Catholics Next Door.\" His large and popular website, \"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism,\" was online from March 1997 to March 2007, and received the 1998 Catholic Website of the Year award from \"Envoy Magazine.\" His blog of the same name (now transferred to Patheos), begun in February 2004, contains more than 1,500 papers, at least 500 debates or dialogues, and over 50 distinct \"index\" web pages. Unsolicited correspondence has indicated many hundreds of conversions (or returns) to the Catholic faith as a result, by God's grace, of these writings. Dave's conversion story was published in the bestselling book \"Surprised by Truth\" (edited by Patrick Madrid; San Diego: Basilica Press, 1994). Sophia Institute Press has published six of his books: \"A Biblical Defense of Catholicism\" (Foreword by Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J., 1996 \/ 2003), \"The Catholic Verses\" (2004), \"The One-Minute Apologist\" (2007), \"Bible Proofs for Catholic Truths\" (2009), \"The Quotable Newman\" (editor: 2012), and \"Proving the Catholic Faith is Biblical\" (2015). He is co-author (with Dr. Paul Thigpen) of the inserts for \"The New Catholic Answer Bible\" (Our Sunday Visitor: 2005), and editor for \"The Wisdom of Mr. Chesterton: The Very Best Quotes, Quips, and Cracks from the Pen of G. K. Chesterton\" (Saint Benedict Press \/ TAN Books: 2009). \"100 Biblical Arguments Against Sola Scriptura\" was published by Catholic Answers in May 2012. His \"Quotable Wesley\" compilation was published by (Protestant \/ Wesleyan publisher) Beacon Hill Press in April 2014. Several of his 49 books are bestsellers in their field. Dave maintains a popular personal Facebook page, a Facebook author page, and has a Twitter account as well. He offers almost all of his books in e-book form on his own Biblical Catholicism site (http:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/), at a permanent deep discount: only $2.99 for ePub, mobi, and AZW, and $1.99 for PDF. His writing has been enthusiastically endorsed or recommended by many leading Catholic apologists, authors, and priests, including Dr. Scott Hahn, Fr. Peter M. J. Stravinskas, Marcus Grodi, Patrick Madrid, Steve Ray, Tim Staples, Devin Rose, Mike Aquilina, Al Kresta, Karl Keating, Fr. Dwight Longenecker, Brandon Vogt, Marcellino D'Ambrosio, and Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave has been happily married to his wife Judy since October 1984. They have three sons and a daughter, and reside in southeast Michigan (metro Detroit).","url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/author\/davearmstrong"}]}},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/75803","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/2331"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=75803"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/75803\/revisions"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/75806"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=75803"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=75803"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=75803"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}