{"id":7656,"date":"2016-05-23T13:10:30","date_gmt":"2016-05-23T17:10:30","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/admin.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/?p=7656"},"modified":"2017-04-19T11:25:08","modified_gmt":"2017-04-19T15:25:08","slug":"prayer-to-saints-new-biblical-argument","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2016\/05\/prayer-to-saints-new-biblical-argument.html","title":{"rendered":"Prayer Directed to Saints: “New” [?] Biblical Argument"},"content":{"rendered":"\n<\/head>

\"JesusTransfiguration\"<\/p>\n

Transfiguration of Christ<\/em> (c. 1487), by Giovanni Bellini (c. 1430-1516)<\/span> [public domain \/ Wikimedia Commons<\/a>]<\/p>\n

*****<\/p>\n

I absolutely love discovering things like this. I learned of it from Mary Sorenson, who follows my posts on Facebook. She wrote on my page<\/a>, in the context of discussing the rich man\u2019s prayer to Abraham<\/a> (Luke 16):<\/p>\n

At the Transfiguration, Jesus spoke with Moses & Elijah. And, as He hung on the cross, calling out \u201cEloi, eloi\u2026\u201d, the people thought he was calling out to Elijah. If praying to dead saints were forbidden, why would they have jumped to that conclusion?<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

My Protestant friend, Dave Scott,<\/a>\u00a0immediately jumped into the fray to debate this (his words will be in blue<\/span>), after I commended Mary for her insight. And before we knew it, we had a new vigorous debate:<\/p>\n

Maybe not forbidden, but does that make it right? What they thought is immaterial, in fact the Bible writers make a point of correcting this \u2013 that he was\u00a0<\/em>calling out to God and not to departed humans\/saints. . . .\u00a0I\u2019m not refuting Dave\u2019s contour but it seems to seek to justify a possibility in the face of a certainty.<\/span><\/p>\n

It\u2019s not immaterial at all. This is the same sort of argument as the rich man\u2019s prayer to Abraham in Luke 16. It shows (in the most plausible<\/em> interpretation, though not absolutely<\/em> so) that the Jews of that time accepted such petitions as altogether proper and permissible. The Bible gives no hint of condemning such a thought as a theoretical possibility.<\/p>\n

Nor does the \u201ccorrection\u201d mean that such a prayer is impermissible. It merely states that Jesus was calling on God, not Elijah.<\/p>\n

They might have jumped to that conclusion because they judged him to be a blasphemous heretic or, at least, were not His followers.<\/span><\/p>\n

Here is the passage in Matthew (RSV):<\/p>\n

Matthew 27:46-50<\/strong>\u00a0And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, \u201cEli, Eli, la\u2019ma sabach-tha\u2019ni?\u201d that is, \u201cMy God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?\u201d [47] And some of the bystanders hearing it said, \u201cThis man is calling Eli\u2019jah.\u201d [48] And one of them at once ran and took a sponge, filled it with vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave it to him to drink. [49] But the others said, \u201cWait, let us see whether Eli\u2019jah will come to save him.\u201d [50] And Jesus cried again with a loud voice and yielded up his spirit. (cf. Mk 15:34-36)<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

The \u201cbystanders\u201d are presented as allies of Jesus, since one of them gave Him a drink, in the next verse (Matthew 27:48). The next verse (27:49) again shows that this was common belief at the time: \u201cBut the others said, \u2018Wait, let us see whether Eli\u2019jah will come to save him.'\u201d<\/p>\n

Thus, it was believed that one could pray to one such as Elijah (who had already appeared with Jesus at the transfiguration), and that he had power to come and give aid; to \u201csave\u201d a person (in this case, Jesus from a horrible death).<\/p>\n

It\u2019s still possible<\/em>\u00a0that they could have accepted some erroneous theology (this is not an absolute, logically necessary argument), but it\u2019s not presented<\/em> as if they are wrong, and in light of other related Scriptures it is more likely that they are correct<\/em> in thinking that this was a permitted scenario.<\/p>\n

Jesus, after all , had already referred to Elijah, saying that he was the prototype for John the Baptist (Mt 11:14; 17:10-13; cf. Lk 1:17 from the angel Gabriel), and it could also have been known that Elijah and Moses appeared with Jesus at the transfiguration (Mt 17:1-6), if these were His followers. But the non-Christian Jews also had elaborate messianic-related views of Elijah (see the long citation below).<\/p>\n

If it was ordained why are there no example of either Jesus doing it or of Paul praying to Stephen after Stephen\u2019s death? (for example).<\/span><\/p>\n

It\u2019s not required. Once or a few times in Scripture is enough, just as the virgin birth and original sin are\u00a0based on just a few passages. The canon of Scripture is nowhere in the Bible at all, yet believed anyway based on tradition. Sola Scriptura<\/em> (in its full epistemological \/ theological meaning) is never ever taught, yet Protestants religiously accept it anyway and make it the basis for all of the rest of their beliefs.<\/p>\n

It\u2019s true that evidences for prayer to saints is mostly indirect (this is a rare example of a direct argument), but Scripture does have quite a bit about praying to angels<\/a>.\u00a0Since the dead saints are said to judge the angels (1 Cor 6:3) and be higher than they are in a sense, then a deductive argument can be made for praying to saints (the \u201chigher\u201d), based on prayer to angels (the \u201clower\u201d).<\/p>\n

The Jewish Encyclopedia<\/em> of 1906 (\u201cElijah\u201d<\/a>) provides an extraordinary summary of Jewish beliefs regarding Elijah and his expected return, that seems to me to\u00a0be in harmony with a notion of someone calling upon (or praying to) him:<\/p>\n

The climax of Elijah\u2019s activity is his appearance shortly before the Messianic time. \u201cHe is appointed to lead aright the coming ages, to restore the tribes of Jacob,\u201d says Ben Sira of him (Ecclus. [Sirach] xlviii. 10, 11). In the second half of the first Christian century it was expected that Elijah would appear shortly before the coming of the Messiah, to restore to families the purity which in the course of time had become doubtful (\u2018Eduy. viii. 7; this is the opinion of Johanan b. Zakkai). A century later the notion prevailed that Elijah\u2019s office was \u201cto bring peace and adjust all differences\u201d (ib.<\/i>).<\/p>\n

It was expected that all controversies and legal disputes which had accumulated in the course of time would be adjusted by him, and that difficult ritual questions and passages of Scripture seemingly conflicting with each other would be explained, so that no difference of opinion would exist concerning anything (Men. 45b; Ab. R. N. xxxiv.; Num. R. iii., near the end; compare also Jew. Encyc. i. 637a). The office of interpreter of the Law he will retain forever, and in the world to come his relation to Moses will be the same as Aaron\u2019s once was (Zohar, \u1e92aw, iii. 27, bottom). But the notion which prevailed at the time of the origin of Christianity, that Elijah\u2019s mission as forerunner of the Messiah consisted mainly in changing the mind of the people and leading them to repentance, is not unknown to rabbinical literature (Pir\u1e33e R. El. xliii., xlvii.).<\/p>\n

His real Messianic activity\u2014in some passages he is even called \u201cgo\u2019el\u201d (=\u201dredeemer\u201d; compare Friedmann, l.c.<\/i> pp. 25, 26)\u2014will commence three days before the coming ofthe Messiah. On the first day he will lament over the devastation of Palestine, but will close with the words: \u201cPeace will now come over the earth\u201d; on the second and third days he will speak words of comfort (Pesi\u1e33. R. xxxv. 161; Elijah as the \u201cgood messenger of salvation\u201d is a frequent figure in the apocalyptic midrashim). When the archangel Michael blows the trumpet, Elijah will appear with the Messiah, whom he will present to the Jews (\u201cOtot ha-Mashia\u1e25,\u201d in Jellinek, \u201cB. H.\u201d ii. 62, 125; see Eschatology). They will ask of Elijah, as an attestation of his mission, that he raise the dead before their eyes and revive such of the dead as they personally knew (Shir ha-Shirim Zu\u1e6da, ed. Buber, 38, end; compare also Syriac Apocalypse of Baruch; Bousset, \u201cThe Antichrist Legend,\u201d p. 203).<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

*****<\/p>\n

Meta Description:\u00a0The \u201cbystanders\u201d during Jesus\u2019 crucifixion thought Jesus was calling on Elijah. This shows that they believed in prayer to a dead person.<\/p>\n

Meta Keywords:\u00a0communion of saints, intercession of the saints, invocation of saints, Prayer, praying to saints, Elijah<\/p>\n<\/body><\/html>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

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Formerly a campus missionary, as a Protestant, Dave was received into the Catholic Church in February 1991, by the late, well-known catechist and theologian, Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave\u2019s articles have appeared in many influential Catholic periodicals, including \"This Rock\" (now called \"Catholic Answers Magazine\"), \"Envoy Magazine\" (Patrick Madrid), \"The Catholic Answer,\" \"The Coming Home Journal,\" \"Gilbert Magazine\" (American Chesterton Society), and \"The Latin Mass.\" He also writes a featured column for every issue of \"The Michigan Catholic\": published by the archdiocese of Detroit, and was editor for most of the apologetics tracts published by the St. Paul Street Evangelization apostolate. Dave\u2019s apologetics and writing apostolate was the subject of a feature article in the May 2002 issue of \"Envoy Magazine.\" He served as the staff moderator at the Internet discussion forum for The Coming Home Network, from 2007-2010. Dave has been interviewed on many nationally syndicated Catholic radio shows, including \"Catholic Answers Live\" (twice), \"Faith and Family Live\" (Steve Wood), \"Kresta in the Afternoon,\" \"Son Rise Morning Show,\" \"Catholic Connection\" (Teresa Tomeo), and \"The Catholics Next Door.\" His large and popular website, \"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism,\" was online from March 1997 to March 2007, and received the 1998 Catholic Website of the Year award from \"Envoy Magazine.\" His blog of the same name (now transferred to Patheos), begun in February 2004, contains more than 1,500 papers, at least 500 debates or dialogues, and over 50 distinct \"index\" web pages. Unsolicited correspondence has indicated many hundreds of conversions (or returns) to the Catholic faith as a result, by God's grace, of these writings. Dave's conversion story was published in the bestselling book \"Surprised by Truth\" (edited by Patrick Madrid; San Diego: Basilica Press, 1994). Sophia Institute Press has published six of his books: \"A Biblical Defense of Catholicism\" (Foreword by Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J., 1996 \/ 2003), \"The Catholic Verses\" (2004), \"The One-Minute Apologist\" (2007), \"Bible Proofs for Catholic Truths\" (2009), \"The Quotable Newman\" (editor: 2012), and \"Proving the Catholic Faith is Biblical\" (2015). He is co-author (with Dr. Paul Thigpen) of the inserts for \"The New Catholic Answer Bible\" (Our Sunday Visitor: 2005), and editor for \"The Wisdom of Mr. Chesterton: The Very Best Quotes, Quips, and Cracks from the Pen of G. K. Chesterton\" (Saint Benedict Press \/ TAN Books: 2009). \"100 Biblical Arguments Against Sola Scriptura\" was published by Catholic Answers in May 2012. His \"Quotable Wesley\" compilation was published by (Protestant \/ Wesleyan publisher) Beacon Hill Press in April 2014. Several of his 49 books are bestsellers in their field. Dave maintains a popular personal Facebook page, a Facebook author page, and has a Twitter account as well. He offers almost all of his books in e-book form on his own Biblical Catholicism site (http:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/), at a permanent deep discount: only $2.99 for ePub, mobi, and AZW, and $1.99 for PDF. His writing has been enthusiastically endorsed or recommended by many leading Catholic apologists, authors, and priests, including Dr. Scott Hahn, Fr. Peter M. J. Stravinskas, Marcus Grodi, Patrick Madrid, Steve Ray, Tim Staples, Devin Rose, Mike Aquilina, Al Kresta, Karl Keating, Fr. Dwight Longenecker, Brandon Vogt, Marcellino D'Ambrosio, and Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave has been happily married to his wife Judy since October 1984. They have three sons and a daughter, and reside in southeast Michigan (metro Detroit).","sameAs":["https:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/","https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/dave.armstrong.798","https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/@LuxVeritatisApologetics"],"url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/author\/davearmstrong"}]}},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/7656","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/2331"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=7656"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/7656\/revisions"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/7657"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=7656"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=7656"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=7656"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}