{"id":76679,"date":"2023-10-13T14:48:31","date_gmt":"2023-10-13T18:48:31","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/?p=76679"},"modified":"2023-10-14T10:35:37","modified_gmt":"2023-10-14T14:35:37","slug":"vs-j-engwer-re-church-authority-2-st-irenaeus","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2023\/10\/vs-j-engwer-re-church-authority-2-st-irenaeus.html","title":{"rendered":"Vs. J. Engwer Re Church Authority, #2: St. Irenaeus"},"content":{"rendered":"\n<\/head>

In Particular, His & Other Fathers\u2019 \u2014 and Luther\u2019s and Calvin\u2019s \u2014 Views on Church Infallibility & Indefectibility\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n

\"\"<\/a><\/p>\n

[see\u00a0book and purchase information<\/a>]<\/p>\n

***<\/p>\n

Jason Engwer is a prolific Protestant anti-Catholic apologist and webmaster of the site,<\/span>\u00a0Tribalblogue<\/em><\/a> (where I have long since been banned). We used to dialogue, from 2000 to 2010. His words will be in<\/span>\u00a0blue<\/span>.<\/p>\n

*****<\/p>\n

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\n

This is a reply to Jason\u2019s article,<\/span> The Church, Authority, And Infallibility:<\/a> (Part 2): Irenaeus<\/a> [3-22-10]. <\/span>Jason cites a big chunk of my <\/span>quotations from St. Irenaeus (130-202) and my comments on them, and then writes:<\/span><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n

*<\/div>\n
I\u2019ve addressed doctrinal development and Dave\u2019s understanding of it in some of my earlier responses to him, such as<\/span>\u00a0here<\/a>\u00a0and<\/span>\u00a0here<\/a>. Remember, he claimed that praying to the dead is implied by Biblical passages like Revelation 5:8 and that apostolic succession is \u201cexplicit\u201d in Papias, for example. He claims that everything from papal infallibility to the assumption of Mary is found in seed form in scripture. As I\u2019ve said before, Dave doesn\u2019t limit himself to acorns when seeking a justification for his Roman Catholic oak. An apple seed or mustard seed will do.<\/span><\/div>\n
*<\/span><\/div>\n
It\u2019s very difficult to answer such a sweeping, inane, relentless set of caricatures of my actual beliefs. So I won\u2019t. See m<\/span>y many articles about development of doctrine<\/a> and m<\/span>y book devoted to that topic<\/a> (my favorite in theology), to learn about my actual<\/em> viewpoint.<\/span><\/div>\n
*<\/span><\/div>\n
Of the four passages in Irenaeus cited by Dave above, the first and third are comments on the state of the church in Irenaeus\u2019 day.<\/span><\/div>\n
*<\/span><\/div>\n
St. Irenaeus (in his words cited) makes no indication that he is bound merely to the present time and is not talking about changeless, grace-produced\u00a0 attributes of the Church. Jason merely assume<\/em>s this, because it\u2019s one of the games he plays in order to dismiss the many clear \u201cCatholic\u201d and opposed-to-Protestant-ecclesiology words from the saint. Hence in the second comment, Irenaeus writes, \u201cthe tradition from the apostles does thus exist in the Church, and is permanent<\/em> among us\u201d (Against Heresie<\/em>s,<\/span> III, 5, 1<\/a>). Jason responded to this (below).<\/span><\/div>\n
*<\/div>\n
Apparently, Dave is assuming that Irenaeus must have expected the church to always maintain that status by means of its infallibility.<\/span><\/div>\n
*<\/div>\n
Yes (per the words I just cited, and I\u2019m sure, many more that could be found. What are we supposed to believe?: that he thought the Church had all these Go-ordained and God-caused supernatural attributes in his<\/em> day, but that they would shortly disappear<\/em>? That\u2019s apparently \u2014 oddly enough \u2014 how many Protestants view ecclesiology, but it makes no sense whatsoever, and is suffused with an unfaithful skepticism; contrary to godly faith.\u00a0 Irenaeus wrote, accordingly, in Against Heresie<\/em>s,<\/span> IV, 33, 8<\/a> (complete):<\/span><\/div>\n
\n
True knowledge is [that which consists in] the doctrine of the apostles, and the ancient constitution of the Church throughout all the world, and the distinctive manifestation of the body of Christ according to the successions of the bishops, by which they have handed down that Church which exists in every place, and has come even unto us, being guarded and preserved<\/em><\/strong> without any forging of Scriptures, by a very complete system of doctrine, and neither receiving addition nor [suffering] curtailment [in the truths which she believes]; and [it consists in] reading [the word of God] without falsification, and a lawful and diligent exposition in harmony with the Scriptures, both without danger and without blasphemy; and [above all, it consists in] the pre-eminent gift of love, which is more precious than knowledge, more glorious than prophecy, and which excels all the other gifts [of God]. [my italics and bolding]<\/span><\/div>\n<\/blockquote>\n
Likewise, in<\/span> Book III, 24, 1<\/a> has the following caption (either from Irenaeus himself or by Schaff and the translators):<\/span><\/div>\n
\n
Recapitulation of the various arguments adduced against Gnostic impiety under all its aspects. The heretics, tossed about by every blast of doctrine, are opposed by the uniform teaching of the Church, which remains so alway<\/em>s<\/em><\/strong>, and is consistent with itself. [my italics and bolding]<\/span><\/div>\n<\/blockquote>\n
St. Irenaeus writes under this title:<\/span><\/div>\n
\n
But [it has, on the other hand, been shown], that the preaching of the\u00a0Church\u00a0is everywhere consistent, and continues in an even course, and receives testimony from the\u00a0prophets, the\u00a0apostles, and all the\u00a0disciples\u2014 as I have\u00a0proved\u2014 through [those in] the beginning, the middle, and the end, and through the entire dispensation of\u00a0God, and that well-grounded system which tends to man\u2019s\u00a0salvation, namely, our\u00a0faith; which, having been received from the\u00a0Church, we do preserve, and which always, by the\u00a0Spirit of God, renewing its yout<\/em>h<\/em><\/strong>, as if it were some precious deposit in an excellent vessel, causes the vessel itself containing it to renew its youth also. For this gift of God has been entrusted to the\u00a0Church, . . . [my italics and bolding] (cf.<\/span> I, 10, 2<\/a>: \u201ccarefully preserves<\/em> [the faith] . . . she proclaims them, and teaches them, and hands them down<\/em>, with perfect harmony . . .\u201d;<\/span> III, 2, 2<\/a>: \u201ctradition which originates from the\u00a0apostles, [and] which is preserved<\/em> by means of the succession of\u00a0presbyters\u00a0in the\u00a0Churches . . .\u201d;<\/span> III, 3, 3<\/a>: \u201cthe same vivifying\u00a0faith, which has been preserved<\/em> in the\u00a0Church\u00a0from the\u00a0apostles\u00a0until now, and handed down in\u00a0truth.)<\/span><\/div>\n<\/blockquote>\n
It would be nice if Jason would actually research<\/em> and back up<\/em> the outlandish anti-Catholic-inspired claims he makes about any given Church father, rather than just tossing off a line in ignorance and wishful thinking, like,<\/span> \u201cDave is assuming that Irenaeus must have expected the church to always maintain that status by means of its infallibility.\u201d Yes, as just shown, Irenaeus did<\/em> believe that, and it\u2019s simply common sense. If one believes that the all-powerful God granted supernatural protection to His Church, then it follows unarguably that God intended it to be permanent and perpetual<\/em>. Of what use would a temporary<\/em> protection be? Then the Church would have gone off the rails before the second century (Irenaeus\u2019 time) arrived.<\/span><\/span>\u00a0 <\/span><\/div>\n
*<\/div>\n
After all, Jesus said, \u201cWhen the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth<\/em><\/strong>\u201d (Jn 16:13, RSV), and \u201cthe Father . . . will give you another Counselor, to be with you for ever<\/em><\/strong>, even the Spirit of truth\u201d (Jn 14:16-17).<\/span><\/div>\n
*<\/div>\n
His second quote of Irenaeus refers to how the tradition of the apostles is \u201cpermanent among us\u201d. As I mentioned in<\/span>\u00a0my 2008 article Dave was responding to<\/a>, Irenaeus could mean that there will always be people who will believe the doctrines he\u2019s referring to. He could mean that the apostolic tradition, considered in itself, will always be available. The apostolic tradition isn\u2019t identical to the church, and, as I documented in<\/span>\u00a0my series on apostolic succession<\/a>, the apostolic faith<\/a> Irenaeus was referring to was much different than the faith of Roman Catholicism.<\/span><\/div>\n
*<\/div>\n
See the \u201cdeath by a thousand cuts\u201d game that Jason constantly plays? If Irenaeus disagrees with him, then (using the time-honored liberal skeptical mentality) he simply redefines<\/em> what he wrote, slanting it and sophistically erasing it and its clear implications. God help us; we have seen that for over two hundred years in biblical hermeneutics and exegesis, and now we see it in patristic examinations. Anything but the obvious Catholic<\/em> implications . . . For Jason, Irenaeus can\u2019t possibly<\/em> be supporting (horror of horrors!) Catholic positions, so Jason obfuscates and plays with his words and speculates about his interior thoughts, until \u201che\u201d doesn\u2019t<\/em> support Catholicism. See how it works?<\/span><\/div>\n
*<\/div>\n
I hasten to add that I don\u2019t believe for a second that Jason is consciously<\/em> trying to be deliberately dishonest (i.e., to deceive). He simply has such a strong bias that he believes<\/em> his own distortions. He\u2019s blind to his own bias and glaring and serious methodological errors. Either way, if falsehood<\/em> is the product, it\u2019s the devil\u2019s victory and a net loss for Jason\u2019s readers and followers.<\/span><\/div>\n
*<\/div>\n
In that series I just referred to, I also documented that much of what Irenaeus says about the church of his day isn\u2019t applicable to later generations. Even if we assume that Irenaeus expected the apostolic faith to always be maintained by the church, he could be referring to the sort of church perpetuity I discussed in the introduction to this series. Dave needs to present more of an argument if he wants us to believe that Irenaeus was referring to something more.<\/span><\/div>\n
*<\/div>\n
I just did<\/em>. Let the reader judge!<\/span><\/div>\n
*<\/div>\n
The fourth passage Dave cited is the most relevant, because of the \u201ccertain gift of truth\u201d reference, which Dave associates with infallibility. He doesn\u2019t explain how that phrase allegedly implies infallibility, much less the Roman Catholic concept of infallibility in particular.<\/span><\/div>\n
*<\/div>\n
I dealt with that in the<\/span> previous installment<\/a>. It was the Anglican patristics scholar J. N. D. Kelly who noted that the phrase used was \u00a0charisma veritatis certum.<\/em><\/span><\/div>\n
*<\/div>\n
What is Irenaeus referring to? Recall, first, that Irenaeus is distinguishing between church leaders who are to be followed and those who are to be avoided. I discussed the larger context in<\/span>\u00a0one of the posts in my series on apostolic succession<\/a>. It\u2019s not certain that every bishop will have the gift of truth Irenaeus is referring to. What he\u2019s saying is that possession of the gift of truth is one of the characteristics a church leader must have if he\u2019s to be followed. Irenaeus doesn\u2019t claim that every bishop has it.<\/span><\/div>\n
*<\/span><\/div>\n
He is claiming that the body of bishops or clerical leaders as a whole possess the gift (just as Catholics believe: they have infallibility when they affirm doctrines when gathered in an ecumenical council, in agreement with the pope). There can always possibly be exceptions, just as Judas was an exception even in the group of disciples that Jesus selected. But the exception doesn\u2019t disprove the rule.<\/span><\/div>\n
\n

Jesus (addressing the seven churches in Revelation; \u201cDid I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?\u201d: Jn 6:70) and St. Paul refer to<\/span> sin in the Church<\/a> and \u201cwolves\u201d and \u201cfalse prophets\u201d entering in, while simultaneously holding that the Church nevertheless preserves \u201cthe truth\u201d. This is what Protestants like Jason can\u2019t bring themselves to accept, because they don\u2019t have enough faith<\/em> to believe that God can protect His Church. They think He can preserve the Bible<\/em> inerrant, but that He can\u2019t enable His Church<\/em> to preserve theological and spiritual and moral truth. Yet sinful men were involved in each thing.<\/span><\/p>\n<\/div>\n

I used to believe the same. I understand the incorrect outlook from my own experience. Jason would appear to think that any and every possible exception disproves the entire rule. Nothing ever seems to be sufficient to him to be an unarguable truth: if<\/em><\/strong> it has to do with support for any Catholic position.<\/span><\/div>\n
*<\/div>\n
Jason cites three Protestant scholars analyzing Irenaeus\u2019 phrase, charisma veritatis certum. <\/em>And of course they interpret it in a way that is consistent with Protestant ecclesiology (as we would expect).<\/span> Lots of discussion<\/a> of it has taken place, but in the end, it is ultimately best interpreted in light of his entire body of writing and his overall thought<\/em>. In any event, he was not a Protestant. There were<\/em> none for another 1300 years, and I submit that no<\/em> Church father can be found who is<\/span> closer in belief to any species of Protestantism<\/a> than to Catholicism (no matter how much Protestants pretend that this is the case with<\/span> St. Augustine<\/a>, St. Athanasius<\/a>, and others).<\/span><\/div>\n
*<\/div>\n
Notice [Eric] Osborn\u2019s comments about the Spirit\u2019s guidance of all Christians. In the introduction to this series, I mentioned that advocates of church infallibility often fail to apply their reasoning consistently. Comments made about the church are interpreted much differently than similar comments made about Israel, all believers, the state, parental authority, etc.<\/span><\/div>\n
*<\/div>\n
It\u2019s not an either\/or. Many things in Scripture have a multiple application. The Holy Spirit\u2019s guidance is one of these things. Individuals are guided (I certainly have been in my own life) \u2014 Paul discusses this in<\/span> 1 Corinthians 2<\/a> \u2013, and there is a specific application<\/em> to Church leaders (\u201cI was appointed a preacher and apostle . . . a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth\u201d: 1 Tim 2:7; cf. Eph 3:8-10). The Church is \u201cthe pillar and bulwark of the truth\u201d (1 Tim 3:15). Because Jason seems to not understand this, he goes on for several paragraphs engaging in irrelevant speculation (which requires no reply).<\/span><\/div>\n
*<\/div>\n
Maybe Dave thinks that the qualifier \u201ccertain\u201d before \u201cgift of truth\u201d makes his point. But how so? We could interpret Irenaeus as saying that it\u2019s certain that the church leaders in question will stay within the truth. The problem, for Dave\u2019s position, is that the term is broad enough to allow for other interpretations as reasonable possibilities, and his own reading can\u2019t be shown to be probable. Irenaeus could mean that the truth in question is certain, not that its ongoing possession by church leaders is certain.<\/span><\/div>\n
*<\/div>\n
As I contended above, Irenaeus\u2019 belief in the indefectibility of the Church, as indicated in his use of the notion of God\u2019s \u201cpreservation\u201d works against Jason\u2019s interpretation of his ecclesiology. Irenaeus was not merely<\/em> talking about the Church leaders of his time, though they were included<\/em> in his analysis.<\/span><\/div>\n
*<\/div>\n
He criticizes heretics for having \u201cno fixed conclusion or certainty\u201d (Against Heresies<\/em>, 2:1:4). He criticizes the heretics because they \u201cdesert what is certain, indubitable, and true\u201d (2:27:3). He refers to learning what\u2019s \u201ccertain and clear\u201d from the churches (3:4:1). He refers to the church\u2019s \u201cpossessing the sure tradition from the apostles\u201d (5:20:1).\u00a0<\/span><\/div>\n
*<\/div>\n
Exactly!<\/span><\/div>\n
*<\/div>\n
He frequently uses terms like \u201ccertain\u201d and \u201ccertainty\u201d to refer to high probabilities, including when addressing matters other than what Dave thinks the church has infallibly taught (3:12:12, 3:16:6, etc.). He refers to degrees of certainty (\u201cmore certain\u201d, 5:30:3).<\/span><\/div>\n
*<\/div>\n
As everyone<\/em> does. Yawn . . . ZZZZZzzzzzzz . . . .<\/span><\/div>\n
*<\/div>\n
All Christians should \u201ckeep with all certainty\u201d the faith they\u2019ve received (Demonstration Of The Apostolic Preaching<\/em>, 98). Was Irenaeus expecting all Christians to keep the faith infallibly?<\/span><\/div>\n
*<\/div>\n
No; he expected the Church to do that.<\/span><\/div>\n
*<\/div>\n
Irenaeus\u2019 church is about as relevant to Dave\u2019s denomination as an apple seed is to an oak.<\/span><\/div>\n
*<\/div>\n
We believe the progression is, of course, acorn to oak. Irenaeus\u2019 church is about as relevant to Jason\u2019s jumbled chaos of thousands of denominations as an apple seed is to a mountainside of thousands of different weeds.<\/span><\/div>\n
*<\/div>\n
Jason then discusses Irenaeus\u2019 passage in Against Heresies<\/em>,<\/span> Book III, 24, 1<\/a>, which I cited above:<\/span><\/div>\n
*<\/div>\n
Is the church \u201calways renewed\u201d in the sense that its future renewal is assured?<\/span><\/div>\n
*<\/div>\n
Yes. Again, if God chooses to supernaturally renew it at one<\/em> point of time, why not always<\/em>? But beyond that point of common sense and plausibility, He has, after all, promised to preserve His Church all the way to the final consummation:<\/span><\/div>\n
\n
\n

Matthew 16:18<\/strong> [\u201cde-Peterized\u201d] . . . my church, . . . the powers of death shall not prevail against it.<\/span><\/p>\n

Ephesians 3:10-11<\/strong> that through the church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places. [11] This was according to the eternal purpose which he has realized in Christ Jesus our Lord,<\/span><\/p>\n

Ephesians 5:25-27<\/strong> Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, [26] that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, [27] that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.<\/span><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<\/blockquote>\n

See my elaborate arguments for infallibility and indefectibility in my<\/span> reply #1<\/a>.<\/div>\n
*<\/div>\n
Or is Irenaeus referring to something that\u2019s happened up to that point in time, but may not continue at all times afterward? (For example, we might refer to a man as always faithful to his wife without meaning that he\u2019s sure to be faithful to her in the future.) Is Irenaeus referring to something that will always occur if the conditions are met, but those conditions may not be met at all times? I think what he had in mind was the first meaning described above, given factors like how highly he speaks of the church in general, how closely he goes on to associate the church with the Spirit, and how highly other authors contemporary with Irenaeus spoke of the church. When Irenaeus refers to the church and the maintaining of the faith, is he only referring to a church hierarchy and its actions within particular circumstances, like an ecumenical council or the Roman bishop\u2019s ex cathedra teachings on faith and morals? No, there\u2019s no reason to think he had such qualifications in mind. He may be referring to some low form of church infallibility, like the concept of church perpetuity that I discussed in the introduction to this series.<\/span><\/div>\n
*<\/div>\n
That\u2019s what Jason would love<\/em> to be the case, so Irenaeus\u2019 faith could be lowered to the level of Jason\u2019s own<\/em> (in which the church isn\u2019t infallible or indefectible at all), but it\u2019s implausible in light of the entire body of the saint\u2019s writing.<\/span><\/div>\n
*<\/span><\/div>\n
Even John Calvin believed that the Church was indefectible (the highest and strongest form of infallibility), but Jason doesn\u2019t, and he erroneously thinks Irenaeus didn\u2019t. Calvin eloquently wrote (when he was right, he was <\/span>extraordinarily<\/em> right):<\/span><\/div>\n
\n

So highly does he recommend her authority, that when it is violated he considers that his own authority is impaired. For there is no small weight in the designation given to her, \u201cthe house of God,\u201d \u201cthe pillar and ground of the truth\u201d (1 Tim. 3:15). By these words Paul intimates, that to prevent the truth from perishing in the world, the Church is its faithful guardian<\/em><\/strong>, because God has been pleased to preserve the pure preaching of his word<\/em><\/strong> by her instrumentality, and to exhibit himself to us as a parent while he feeds us with spiritual nourishment, and provides whatever is conducive to our salvation. (Institutes of the Christian Religion<\/em>, IV, 1:10; my italics and bolding)<\/span><\/p>\n

I always hold that the<\/strong> truth does not perish in the Church<\/em> though it be oppressed by one council, but is wondrously preserved by the Lord<\/em><\/strong> to rise again, and prove victorious in his own time. (Inst<\/em>., IV, 9:13; my italics and bolding)<\/span><\/p><\/blockquote>\n

Martin Luther, the founder of Protestantism, also agreed:<\/span><\/p>\n

Christ preserves his Christendom<\/em><\/strong> even in the midst of such destruction, just as he rescued Lot at Sodom . . . the Antichrist sits in the temple of God through the action of the devil, while the temple still is and remains the temple of God<\/em> through the power of Christ<\/em><\/strong>. . . . They [Anabaptists] take a severe stand against the pope, but they miss their mark and murder the more terribly the Christendom under the pope. (Concerning Rebaptism: A Letter to Two Pastors<\/em>, 1528, Luther\u2019s Works<\/em>, Vol. 40, 233; translated by Conrad Bergendoff; my italics and bolding)<\/span><\/p><\/blockquote>\n

Jason is more like the Anabaptists; far more radical than Luther or Calvin ever dreamt of being.<\/span><\/p>\n

The eminent Protestant Church historian Philip Schaff described the perspective of the Ante-Nicene Church fathers generally, concerning Scripture, Church, and tradition:<\/span><\/p>\n

Equally inseparable from her is the predicate of apostolicity, that is, the historical continuity or unbroken succession, which reaches back through the bishops to the apostles, from the apostles to Christ, and from Christ to God. In the view of the fathers, every theoretical departure from this empirical, tangible, catholic church is heresy, that is, arbitrary, subjective, ever changing human opinion; every practical departure, all disobedience to her rulers is schism, or dismemberment of the body of Christ; either is rebellion against divine authority, and a heinous, if not the most heinous, sin. No heresy can reach the conception of the church<\/em><\/strong>, or rightly claim any one of her predicates; it forms at best a sect or party, and consequently falls within the province and the fate of human and perishing things, while the church is divine and indestructible<\/em><\/strong>.<\/span><\/p>\n

This is without doubt the view of the ante-Nicene father<\/em>s<\/em><\/strong>, even of the speculative and spiritualistic Alexandrians . . .<\/span><\/p>\n

Even Clement of Alexandria, and Origen, with all their spiritualistic and idealizing turn of mind, are no exception here. (History of the Christian Church<\/em>, Vol. 2, Chapter IV, section 53, \u201cThe Catholic Unity,\u201d pp. 169-170, 172; my italics and bolding)<\/span><\/p><\/blockquote>\n

This would include St. Irenaeus, since Schaff contended that all<\/em> the fathers before 325 believed in the same thing regarding the indefectibility of the Church. That\u2019s the opinion of one of the most renowned Protestant Church historians; editor of the famous and standard 38-volume set of the writings of the fathers. He would know. He\u2019s the expert. He has read a thousand times more of the fathers\u2019 writings than Jason or I ever have read or will read. If Jason disagrees with him, I (sorry!) go with Schaff. Nothing personal<\/em> . . .<\/span><\/p>\n

*****<\/p>\n

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Practical Matters<\/em><\/strong>: Perhaps some of my 4,500+ free online articles (the most comprehensive \u201cone-stop\u201d Catholic apologetics site) or\u00a0fifty-three books<\/a>\u00a0have helped you (by God\u2019s grace) to decide to\u00a0become Catholic<\/a>\u00a0or to\u00a0return to the Church<\/a>,\u00a0or better understand some doctrines and\u00a0why<\/em>\u00a0we believe them<\/a>.<\/div>\n
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Or you may believe my work is worthy to support for the purpose of apologetics and evangelism in general. If so, please seriously consider a much-needed financial contribution. I\u2019m always in need of more funds: especially\u00a0monthly<\/em>\u00a0support. \u201cThe laborer is worthy of his wages\u201d (1 Tim 5:18, NKJV). 1 December 2021 was my 20th anniversary as a\u00a0full-time Catholic apologist<\/a>, and February 2022 marked the 25th anniversary of my blog.<\/div>\n
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PayPal donations<\/a>\u00a0are the easiest: just send to my email address: apologistdave@gmail.com. You\u2019ll see the term \u201cCatholic Used Book Service\u201d, which is my old side-business. To learn about the different methods of contributing, including 100% tax deduction, etc., see my page:\u00a0About Catholic Apologist Dave Armstrong \/ Donation Information<\/a>.\u00a0Thanks a million<\/em><\/strong>\u00a0from the bottom of my heart!<\/div>\n
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Summary<\/em>: I debate and document several points about St. Irenaeus\u2019 view on Church infallibility and indefectibility with evangelical anti-Catholic apologist Jason Engwer.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<\/body><\/html>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

In Particular, His & Other Fathers\u2019 \u2014 and Luther\u2019s and Calvin\u2019s \u2014 Views on Church Infallibility & Indefectibility\u00a0 [see\u00a0book and purchase information] *** Jason Engwer is a prolific Protestant anti-Catholic apologist and webmaster of the site,\u00a0Tribalblogue (where I have long since been banned). We used to dialogue, from 2000 to 2010. His words will be […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2331,"featured_media":76652,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[231,131,239],"tags":[621,163,32,2692,18137,18134],"class_list":["post-76679","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-anti-catholicism","category-church-ecclesiology","category-fathers-of-the-church","tag-doctrine-of-the-church","tag-ecclesiology","tag-rule-of-faith","tag-st-irenaeus","tag-st-irenaeus-indefectibility","tag-st-irenaeus-infallibility"],"yoast_head":"\nVs. J. Engwer Re Church Authority, #2: St. Irenaeus Vs. J. Engwer Re Church Authority, #2: St. Irenaeus<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"In Particular, His & Other Fathers' -- and Luther's and Calvin's -- Views on Church Infallibility & Indefectibility\u00a0 *** Jason Engwer is a I debate and document several points about St. Irenaeus' view on Church infallibility and indefectibility with evangelical anti-Catholic apologist Jason Engwer.\" \/>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<link rel=\"canonical\" href=\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2023\/10\/vs-j-engwer-re-church-authority-2-st-irenaeus.html\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"en_US\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:type\" content=\"article\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:title\" content=\"Vs. J. Engwer Re Church Authority, #2: St. Irenaeus Vs. J. Engwer Re Church Authority, #2: St. Irenaeus\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:description\" content=\"In Particular, His & Other Fathers' -- and Luther's and Calvin's -- Views on Church Infallibility & Indefectibility\u00a0 *** Jason Engwer is a I debate and document several points about St. Irenaeus' view on Church infallibility and indefectibility with evangelical anti-Catholic apologist Jason Engwer.\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:url\" content=\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2023\/10\/vs-j-engwer-re-church-authority-2-st-irenaeus.html\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:site_name\" content=\"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism\" \/>\n<meta property=\"article:author\" content=\"https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/dave.armstrong.798\" \/>\n<meta property=\"article:published_time\" content=\"2023-10-13T18:48:31+00:00\" \/>\n<meta property=\"article:modified_time\" content=\"2023-10-14T14:35:37+00:00\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:image\" content=\"https:\/\/wp-media.patheos.com\/blogs\/sites\/572\/2023\/10\/Cover-555-x-835-scaled.jpg\" \/>\n\t<meta property=\"og:image:width\" content=\"510\" \/>\n\t<meta property=\"og:image:height\" content=\"768\" \/>\n\t<meta property=\"og:image:type\" content=\"image\/jpeg\" \/>\n<meta name=\"author\" content=\"Dave Armstrong\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:card\" content=\"summary_large_image\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:label1\" content=\"Written by\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:data1\" content=\"Dave Armstrong\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:label2\" content=\"Est. reading time\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:data2\" content=\"13 minutes\" \/>\n<script type=\"application\/ld+json\" class=\"yoast-schema-graph\">{\"@context\":\"https:\/\/schema.org\",\"@graph\":[{\"@type\":\"WebPage\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2023\/10\/vs-j-engwer-re-church-authority-2-st-irenaeus.html\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2023\/10\/vs-j-engwer-re-church-authority-2-st-irenaeus.html\",\"name\":\"Vs. 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Engwer Re Church Authority, #2: St. Irenaeus\"}]},{\"@type\":\"WebSite\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/#website\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/\",\"name\":\"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism\",\"description\":\"Catholic biblical apologetics\",\"potentialAction\":[{\"@type\":\"SearchAction\",\"target\":{\"@type\":\"EntryPoint\",\"urlTemplate\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/?s={search_term_string}\"},\"query-input\":\"required name=search_term_string\"}],\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\"},{\"@type\":\"Person\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/#\/schema\/person\/471eaa20e441eca4bb1ea50393cf632e\",\"name\":\"Dave Armstrong\",\"image\":{\"@type\":\"ImageObject\",\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/#\/schema\/person\/image\/\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/secure.gravatar.com\/avatar\/820e6db89734ae7a9e5dac8d498f5ac7?s=96&d=mm&r=g\",\"contentUrl\":\"https:\/\/secure.gravatar.com\/avatar\/820e6db89734ae7a9e5dac8d498f5ac7?s=96&d=mm&r=g\",\"caption\":\"Dave Armstrong\"},\"description\":\"Dave Armstrong is a Catholic author and apologist, who has been actively proclaiming and defending Christianity since 1981, and Catholicism in particular since 1991 (full-time since December 2001). Formerly a campus missionary, as a Protestant, Dave was received into the Catholic Church in February 1991, by the late, well-known catechist and theologian, Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave\u2019s articles have appeared in many influential Catholic periodicals, including \\\"This Rock\\\" (now called \\\"Catholic Answers Magazine\\\"), \\\"Envoy Magazine\\\" (Patrick Madrid), \\\"The Catholic Answer,\\\" \\\"The Coming Home Journal,\\\" \\\"Gilbert Magazine\\\" (American Chesterton Society), and \\\"The Latin Mass.\\\" He also writes a featured column for every issue of \\\"The Michigan Catholic\\\": published by the archdiocese of Detroit, and was editor for most of the apologetics tracts published by the St. Paul Street Evangelization apostolate. Dave\u2019s apologetics and writing apostolate was the subject of a feature article in the May 2002 issue of \\\"Envoy Magazine.\\\" He served as the staff moderator at the Internet discussion forum for The Coming Home Network, from 2007-2010. Dave has been interviewed on many nationally syndicated Catholic radio shows, including \\\"Catholic Answers Live\\\" (twice), \\\"Faith and Family Live\\\" (Steve Wood), \\\"Kresta in the Afternoon,\\\" \\\"Son Rise Morning Show,\\\" \\\"Catholic Connection\\\" (Teresa Tomeo), and \\\"The Catholics Next Door.\\\" His large and popular website, \\\"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism,\\\" was online from March 1997 to March 2007, and received the 1998 Catholic Website of the Year award from \\\"Envoy Magazine.\\\" His blog of the same name (now transferred to Patheos), begun in February 2004, contains more than 1,500 papers, at least 500 debates or dialogues, and over 50 distinct \\\"index\\\" web pages. Unsolicited correspondence has indicated many hundreds of conversions (or returns) to the Catholic faith as a result, by God's grace, of these writings. Dave's conversion story was published in the bestselling book \\\"Surprised by Truth\\\" (edited by Patrick Madrid; San Diego: Basilica Press, 1994). Sophia Institute Press has published six of his books: \\\"A Biblical Defense of Catholicism\\\" (Foreword by Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J., 1996 \/ 2003), \\\"The Catholic Verses\\\" (2004), \\\"The One-Minute Apologist\\\" (2007), \\\"Bible Proofs for Catholic Truths\\\" (2009), \\\"The Quotable Newman\\\" (editor: 2012), and \\\"Proving the Catholic Faith is Biblical\\\" (2015). He is co-author (with Dr. Paul Thigpen) of the inserts for \\\"The New Catholic Answer Bible\\\" (Our Sunday Visitor: 2005), and editor for \\\"The Wisdom of Mr. Chesterton: The Very Best Quotes, Quips, and Cracks from the Pen of G. K. Chesterton\\\" (Saint Benedict Press \/ TAN Books: 2009). \\\"100 Biblical Arguments Against Sola Scriptura\\\" was published by Catholic Answers in May 2012. His \\\"Quotable Wesley\\\" compilation was published by (Protestant \/ Wesleyan publisher) Beacon Hill Press in April 2014. Several of his 49 books are bestsellers in their field. Dave maintains a popular personal Facebook page, a Facebook author page, and has a Twitter account as well. He offers almost all of his books in e-book form on his own Biblical Catholicism site (http:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/), at a permanent deep discount: only $2.99 for ePub, mobi, and AZW, and $1.99 for PDF. His writing has been enthusiastically endorsed or recommended by many leading Catholic apologists, authors, and priests, including Dr. Scott Hahn, Fr. Peter M. J. Stravinskas, Marcus Grodi, Patrick Madrid, Steve Ray, Tim Staples, Devin Rose, Mike Aquilina, Al Kresta, Karl Keating, Fr. Dwight Longenecker, Brandon Vogt, Marcellino D'Ambrosio, and Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave has been happily married to his wife Judy since October 1984. They have three sons and a daughter, and reside in southeast Michigan (metro Detroit).\",\"sameAs\":[\"https:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/\",\"https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/dave.armstrong.798\",\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/@LuxVeritatisApologetics\"],\"url\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/author\/davearmstrong\"}]}<\/script>\n<!-- \/ Yoast SEO plugin. -->","yoast_head_json":{"title":"Vs. J. Engwer Re Church Authority, #2: St. Irenaeus Vs. J. 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Formerly a campus missionary, as a Protestant, Dave was received into the Catholic Church in February 1991, by the late, well-known catechist and theologian, Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave\u2019s articles have appeared in many influential Catholic periodicals, including \"This Rock\" (now called \"Catholic Answers Magazine\"), \"Envoy Magazine\" (Patrick Madrid), \"The Catholic Answer,\" \"The Coming Home Journal,\" \"Gilbert Magazine\" (American Chesterton Society), and \"The Latin Mass.\" He also writes a featured column for every issue of \"The Michigan Catholic\": published by the archdiocese of Detroit, and was editor for most of the apologetics tracts published by the St. Paul Street Evangelization apostolate. Dave\u2019s apologetics and writing apostolate was the subject of a feature article in the May 2002 issue of \"Envoy Magazine.\" He served as the staff moderator at the Internet discussion forum for The Coming Home Network, from 2007-2010. Dave has been interviewed on many nationally syndicated Catholic radio shows, including \"Catholic Answers Live\" (twice), \"Faith and Family Live\" (Steve Wood), \"Kresta in the Afternoon,\" \"Son Rise Morning Show,\" \"Catholic Connection\" (Teresa Tomeo), and \"The Catholics Next Door.\" His large and popular website, \"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism,\" was online from March 1997 to March 2007, and received the 1998 Catholic Website of the Year award from \"Envoy Magazine.\" His blog of the same name (now transferred to Patheos), begun in February 2004, contains more than 1,500 papers, at least 500 debates or dialogues, and over 50 distinct \"index\" web pages. Unsolicited correspondence has indicated many hundreds of conversions (or returns) to the Catholic faith as a result, by God's grace, of these writings. Dave's conversion story was published in the bestselling book \"Surprised by Truth\" (edited by Patrick Madrid; San Diego: Basilica Press, 1994). Sophia Institute Press has published six of his books: \"A Biblical Defense of Catholicism\" (Foreword by Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J., 1996 \/ 2003), \"The Catholic Verses\" (2004), \"The One-Minute Apologist\" (2007), \"Bible Proofs for Catholic Truths\" (2009), \"The Quotable Newman\" (editor: 2012), and \"Proving the Catholic Faith is Biblical\" (2015). He is co-author (with Dr. Paul Thigpen) of the inserts for \"The New Catholic Answer Bible\" (Our Sunday Visitor: 2005), and editor for \"The Wisdom of Mr. Chesterton: The Very Best Quotes, Quips, and Cracks from the Pen of G. K. Chesterton\" (Saint Benedict Press \/ TAN Books: 2009). \"100 Biblical Arguments Against Sola Scriptura\" was published by Catholic Answers in May 2012. His \"Quotable Wesley\" compilation was published by (Protestant \/ Wesleyan publisher) Beacon Hill Press in April 2014. Several of his 49 books are bestsellers in their field. Dave maintains a popular personal Facebook page, a Facebook author page, and has a Twitter account as well. He offers almost all of his books in e-book form on his own Biblical Catholicism site (http:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/), at a permanent deep discount: only $2.99 for ePub, mobi, and AZW, and $1.99 for PDF. His writing has been enthusiastically endorsed or recommended by many leading Catholic apologists, authors, and priests, including Dr. Scott Hahn, Fr. Peter M. J. Stravinskas, Marcus Grodi, Patrick Madrid, Steve Ray, Tim Staples, Devin Rose, Mike Aquilina, Al Kresta, Karl Keating, Fr. Dwight Longenecker, Brandon Vogt, Marcellino D'Ambrosio, and Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave has been happily married to his wife Judy since October 1984. 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